MMT Revolution - Jessica Burbank - Ryan Research Podcast #9
Peter Ryan 14 hr ago
I'm joined by Jessica Burbank. She is an Executive Co-Director at Public Money Action, Contributor & Co-Host on The Young Turks, a Content Creator for More Perfect Union, and regularly covers public policy as it pertains to economics and monetary systems on her Tik Tok series, "Econ for the People." Her TEDx talk, "A New Direction for the U.S. Economy" explores applying democratic principles to economic systems. Jessica earned her master's degree in Data-Driven Policy from Brown University. Previously, she worked for the Bernie Sanders' Presidential campaign, The Policy Lab at Brown, and Research Improving People's Lives.
In our chat, we discuss Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). MMT is an economic school of thought that analyzes the economy through the relationship between real resource constraints and sovereign fiat monetary/fiscal policy. We explore the intellectual history of MMT and what solutions it holds for the present. Burbank also elaborates on her journey to MMT as well as her highly effective dissemination of ideas using the popular social media platform TikTok.
Follow Jessica Burbank on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/JessicaLBurbank
Visit her websites:
https://www.tiktok.com/@kaburbank
https://linktr.ee/kaburbank
Listen to the audio-only version here:
https://www.ryanresearch.co/post/mmt-revolution-jessica-burbank-ryan-research-podcast-9
[Music] all right i am here with jessica burbank
um she talks about all things mmt and economics and um it's a big pleasure
to have you on um so we'll be talking a little bit about of course mmt sort of branching out into
wider economics some current day issues uh and just seeing where that leads us so
jessica can you please give a short bio intro about yourself hi everyone happy
to be on this has been in the works for a while and i'm glad we're finally doing it uh
yeah so my background is just growing up uh in the recession in the united states
being pretty critical of what's going on in the country not really understanding why exactly we can't have nice things
but really believing a lot of the myths that were told of you know someone
somewhere has run the numbers and that's why we can't have nice things uh and growing up in a household where no one
has a college degree what you hear on the news you pretty much just accept us as what's going on there's not really an
alternate perspective and my parents are critical thinkers but a lot of this stuff you don't really learn economics
or anything of the sort in public school in the united states although i think we should
and it wasn't really until undergrad that i was exposed to a lot of these perspectives i ended up going to trade school because that was the surest bet
at financial security it didn't look like i was going to get to go to college got really lucky went to a really small
school studied under you know some heterodox professors that really shaped my brain kent clickguard who's an
environmental economist was a big mentor to me as was to kumbi lumumba kasango
who's more in the social sciences and so learning under them was huge uh ended up
finishing and trying to go into law thought that was the the place to go to change some things uh and found that
that really wasn't for me and there really wasn't much to do so i went to grad school i thought that would
be the way to do fun and interesting things uh after doing a lot of econ in undergrad
studying a lot of political science and international studies i figured public policy was the best route for me ended
up doing data-driven public policy and thinking a lot about the monetary system
but it's understudied how fiscal policy and monetary policy can be different
wasn't as much of a conversation as it should have been in the econ departments and in graduate school and so i do a lot
of that now but after grad school i worked for the bernie sanders campaign
where i you know figured out the works of stephanie kelton because she was his
economic advisor in the budget committee and then from there just studied that a ton
ended up doing more data work for organizing and just doing tick tock on the side and really keeping up with a
lot of what i studied in grad school on tick tock uh great use for my grad degree but that's been
really fun um and i've just been really lucky to be able to explore these ideas now now i do
work with the young turks covering stories everything but a lot of econ as well
cool cool so that's uh that's an interesting origin story so i think with a lot of
uh a lot of these ideas um where sort of you know you're kind of coming in from
from different sides into the mainstream rather than sort of sitting within the mainstream uh there's these watershed
moments where um it's like ooh like you know i i was sort of curious about this thing
and then this opened a whole new world so um if you could what was really the watershed moment for you like what
policy issue or what economic theory that you sort of explored that really opened up a new way of looking at
economics that's super interesting there was a moment in graduate school
where we were learning about ubi and to many people this really seems like the one thing
that will fix you know capitalism right everyone has an income everyone can meet
their most basic needs which many people agree should be guaranteed because for so many years
throughout history human beings became the dominant species on the planet because they work together to meet their
needs collectively this is something adam smith talked about a lot and we've kind of gotten away from that and it's a
huge problem right we've intentionally designed scarcity so that people can make money off of people
meeting their most basic needs and it seems like the right thing to do right we can create money we should give
everyone income so they can meet their needs this will not solve the problems of consumerism and it also will not
necessarily solve class divisions in the country and i really just didn't
understand why so many people were obsessed with ubi and we were talking about it in this class policy problems
of the 21st century which i just found my notebook for and my notebook was completely empty i was
like why didn't i take any notes but i asked the professor i said you know isn't there a world where ubi can
maintain class divisions more intensely because you have these people living and
working for a set wage and you have all of the people who you know run computer algorithms they own capital they own the
means of production for all intents and purposes they're making all of the economic decisions for how our resources
are used as a society uh and and she said to me you know you sound a lot like
someone named minsky have you read hyman minsky ever and i was like no i hadn't and so i started reading some
minsky and and that was really you know the moment where i said i need to figure
out without revolution what policy changes can be made for how our society
is structured to actually fix these problems and it wasn't until i came across kelton
uh she did an interview with ryan graham about how the monetary system was set up
and how if we really change how money flows in society that's really the key to changing everything else
um it's it's not going to be ubi but that was really the gateway for me was the ubi debate which is
fascinating um and it wasn't the first time i was exposed to heterodox ideas
but it was the first moment where i really felt like i started understanding solutions and not just being able to
describe the problems really well yeah and so then in sort of those uh sort of immediate moments after or you
know like moments in a in a macro sense um of reading minsky and and listening
to kelton for the first time so where did that take your mind of like you were curious about ubi and now sort of you
got these new thinkers under your belt um where did that lead you
yeah so where i discovered kelton was was some time after first you know realizing that
there's got to be better solutions out there than what mainstream economists but also mainstream media and
people in the political establishment what they're talking about they pretend to have all these ideas for
solutions and just gridlock is in congress is why we can't do anything which is just absolutely not true um and
so after that i started working in the research space
doing randomized control trials to try and assess the impacts of of policies
working in labs with behavioral economists which is so random but a lot of these
policy solutions were pretty much we have to means test something and just
incentivize people to make better decisions for their own financial lives and so there was this policy
uh program called the road to college it was in rhode island i was at brown so r-h-o-d-e kind of a play on words but in
any sense just not an effective policy they took the highest performing high school students based on their test
scores and put them in this college readiness program right and if you complete like
sat prep you're gonna get a gift card and that's the incentive and that's how we're gonna get these kids to to go to
college who are from low-income families and it's like if you really think
that not being motivated to do college readiness prep is the barrier to
low-income kids going to college and really so much money is going into this research i i was super critical of how
our economic system was set up and how so many people who are so intelligent and who have so much power and so many
resources to bring change and produce policy research to give to to congress
and people in power to say like this is proven to do x y and z thing you should do it but really what needs to happen is
we've got to change the distribution of resources in our society and and how resources are used and how economic
decisions are made and just really seeing that no one was working towards that ends
i was super passionate about it and was always talking about it and the director of my graduate program was
like hey there's going to be this ted conference at brown you should apply to talk about it and i was like there's no
way they're gonna let me get on stage and talk about how our economic system is awful and like there's this new and
better one and people talk about socialism and they don't understand what the word means
and so i just pitched it because i was like that's the only thing i would really want to talk about and they were like yeah let's interview you and i was
shocked i was like they're not gonna end up letting me get through but maybe they're just honoring that you
know this person you know referred me but they ended up saying yeah that this was a good thing a good idea
that i should go talk about it and so there's a lot of research that went into putting that talk together because it
was just like years of assessing how the economic system is set up what
are other things that have been tried what's gone wrong definitely but also uh
what went wrong for reasons other than you know it's a bad idea um
so a lot of people will point to like the united states intervening wherever socialism has been tried abroad even
when like democratically elected socialist leaders come to office why is the united states you know cooing those
leaders we really haven't gotten to see what a truly democratic economy
looks like and we've been taught to fear this word socialism before we ever we ever get to
the point of trying it and so i think if more people understood that idea that democratic principles can be
applied to economics that it's not fair that we don't make decisions about how
the resources are used in our society and so i really wanted to make that case and
that was a lot of research about just how to communicate ideas but moreover it's when i discovered stephanie kelton
and uh didn't fully understand it at all but i wanted to make sure that in this talk i
didn't say anything that contradicted her yet because i i knew that one day i might agree with her but i didn't have
time to deep dive into mmt but as soon as i gave that that ted talk it was actually all mmt after that all of my
free time was was reading about mmt while canvassing for the bernie sanders campaign um so really that was what what
launched the next phase gotcha gotcha and i i believe the title
of that ted talk is a new direction for the u.s economy uh so if anybody you know wants to go
check that out please do tedx.com or wherever on youtube um and so yeah so i i thought that was
it was definitely an interesting talk and definitely about like okay let's let's talk about refreshing ideas and
the emphasis on new um but where i also kind of like have had my share of watershed moments and kind
of coming into this and as you say sort of sort of destigmatizing certain uh perspectives
um you know when i look at the history of the us economy so the past of it
um you actually see that there's a lot more conducive to these new ideas that was
going back in you know the mid 20th century the early 20th century the 19th century
and sort of obviously room for improvement of course but the ideas of the formation of economics as a
discipline and more so the implementation of economic policy
very much so there was this entrepreneurial state this interventionist state that was creating an industrial base that was creating
jobs for people and scholars for me that are super important in this dynamic are people
like kanjun chang and eric s reinhart really going in and exploring not just
the united states but basically almost any country that develops the study of development economics is really the
study of the specific state-led programs that coordinate the private sector to adhere to specific types of activities
to providing jobs for people in adequate ways and to making sure especially from the point of view of you know you're
doing this for real and for a healthy economic future that you're breaking down existing colonial relationships so
so where does your sort of brain go when you think about the wider world of sort of development economics and the history
of the ideas and that they really shouldn't be that stigmatizing
yeah i love the framing of this i spent a lot of time in undergrad to camilla mumba kusungo is someone who's big in
development economics never thought i'd be learning about that stuff but because i really admired him i took every class
i could with him and ended up learning a lot about the colonial approach to development
economics which so many people hear the phrase economics or even development economics and they
just associate it with the dominant narrative and who's in power right now instead of appreciating the discipline
for really what it is which is like you said the study of of how an economy comes to be right how do we help people
collectively meet their material needs through very complicated systems but necessary systems
um and of course you have the history of like the world bank and the imf with these
predatory loans getting countries into debt as soon as the united states removes the gold standard as far as you
know international or foreign entities being able to exchange their dollars for gold then you had all of these dollars
being printed and sent to these countries so that they're in debt and the development model was pretty much to
create raw goods that could be used by you know imperial countries
it doesn't have to be like that right development economics doesn't have to be what the imf and world bank designed it
to be and now even you have very progressive leaders of the world bank that want to move away from that development model and really just care
about you know how do we make a society where people meet their needs and flourish
and i think that's such an exciting topic and it really brings me to like the foundation of mmt
like where i really like to start the conversation is this is not disconnected from the
entrepreneurial state like you mentioned but the the virginia bay colony
uh randall ray talks about this a lot he has a much better talk on it but i'll give a regurgitation now where
you know you had people going over to the states wanting to to start colonies but they had to make things run things
had to to function people had to grow food they had to have schools and and police and all sorts of things to keep
themselves safe and they really needed to put people to work in various ways so
that society doesn't collapse so that the colony is successful and what they did was they created this
thing called virginia notes and the congress that was there met and they said all right we're going to
set a tax rate of x percent on on property and commerce and things like
that and we're going to create x amount of virginia notes and we're going to issue the notes people will have to use
them because we have the authority to levy a tax against them so there's now demand
for this currency because we're going to tax you for it so if you want to live here you've got to find a way to get it
which means you've got to get a job you've got to grow food you've got to teach the kids you've got to do all the
things that are necessary for our society to function at the end of the year
things were going well right there were farms there were schools people were collecting the trash people were building
infrastructure and they collected their taxes in virginia notes and burned them
this is very fascinating when you think about currency a lot of people think of the dollar as having
like intrinsic value and if we create more dollars you know all of the dollars that already exist
are devalued the government needs dollars in order to fund any spending
no any currency issuer has complete control over the money
supply and of course it's important to keep an eye on where the money supply is at make sure you know money that's new
that's entering the economy is going to the right places but this story really illustrates that
they don't need their own currency they're issuing the currency for the purpose of of controlling this society
quite frankly of making sure things run now it would be more democratic if
people met and and we said how should this new currency enter the economy right what sorts of programs do we want
to have happen what sorts of crops do we want to grow what kind of infrastructure do we want
to have that's what a more democratic approach will look like that's why i say in this case you know the government really was controlling the economy to a
certain degree by making decisions about where the currency goes but the government doesn't need its own
currency and that's the the first thing we really need to fundamentally understand to understand mmt is that a
currency issuer doesn't have to go and find virginia notes somewhere else they create them they burn them at the end of
the year and this analogy is is still very useful because people need dollars to pay their
taxes but also the deficit is merely a record of all of the dollars that have
entered the economy that haven't yet been taxed back out so everyone right now is talking about how we increase the
money supply very recently but they they're failing to talk about that the irs had a record collection
and so the deficit shrank a bit and so people are blaming current inflation on
essentially hyperinflation saying that the dollar has lost its value uh no of
course the government if they print too much money can cause inflation because if too many people you know have new
money in their pockets you're going to see that increased demand right if people are spending that money back into
the economy especially if you're giving it to people with a high propensity to spend
but are we hyperinflating the dollar right now no absolutely not the dollar still
has a strong trading value internationally and what we see with inflation is you know prices have gone
up in certain sectors especially when we see the price of fuel go up we're going to see that reflected everywhere else
because all the way along the supply chain you're going to need to use fuel it just increases production costs but
also we're seeing that corporations have record profits right they're not hurting they're not making up for losses by increasing prices and so that's when we
get into the territory of price gouging but at the end of the day understanding
that we don't have a gold back currency understanding that the government can create the currency that it needs to and
it doesn't have to go and find it somewhere or collect it out into the economy it needs to spend it first into
the economy and put it out there and then tax it back out and that's what creates demand for the currency and also
that that money is just a tool uh to help our society function
yeah the fundamentals yeah and that's that's where we found such of a clever insight of of the mmt
world is that you look at money from one layer of that it's actually infrastructure
it's like whatever you want to say about the various levels and and where it's going and how people are using it what's
the circulation there's a fundamental reality that
money is like a like a copper wire for electricity to go over and it's like
if you do not have enough copper wire you're you're just not going to have a proper
dissemination of electricity so like that's there's a similar concept here it's like it's not the fact that you don't have the labor the labor doesn't
have the skills that you don't have the real resources you know whatever it might be
it's like all those things that can be there and the issue is actually
that you don't have the infrastructure in place too like using another analogy like you don't have the roads to connect
all the towns to actually increase the commerce that is going on between them so that's where it's like for the mmpers
it's like they're saying no you actually need to at times expand the monetary supply in certain directed
ways to actually provide that infrastructure for people precisely yeah i love where this
conversation is going um i talk a lot about real productive capacity which you
know if you're not exposed to economics can be a weird phrase but it's really just what is the potential for the amount of
things the goods and services we can produce the things of real value we can create as an economy
and that's an exciting question but a daunting one if you consider how our current economy is set up and we
don't have much control over how people with capital are using you know our real
productive resources so things like tools machinery uh land natural resources and labor
especially they get to decide where labor is directed that is not a
democratic principle when you have a few people who have wealth who have capital
who have resources they are making decisions about our entire labor force so if
you're born into the united states you know you have a choice unless you're born into a wealthy family of course but
how are you going to sell your labor labor to survive it's not a an if it's not a maybe i'll go out in the woods and
you know collect berries and live the old-fashioned way i don't want to partake in this i don't want to sell my labor to someone else but really your
choice is is precisely that you've got to sell your labor to someone else at a value that's less than your labor
is worth in order to to pay your bills to survive and that's a coercive structure and so
mm tears really are fighting to democratize the economy in
in this sense uh because uh the way the economy is currently designed a lot of people will say it's
the industrial reserve army as marx talked about it but this necessary pool of people who are unemployed so that
there's a great demand for labor because if you're out of work you're more willing to take a job for low wages uh
if you're competing with other people who are also out of work because like i said you've got to meet your most basic needs you've got to live
you've got to pay the bills and so all of this really comes down to mmt are
saying that's unnecessary and that's really freeing and really exciting it's unnecessary to keep people
unemployed and right now we hear the fed talking a lot about why they're raising interest rates and their working theory
for how they're managing the money supply is quite insane so there's these private banks that they've been
outsourced to be the people who put money into the economy by the government instead of the government directly
injecting money into the economy which i'll get to in a second but the the theory is that you give the the
banks money at a set interest rate um the banks will loan out that money to people who will start businesses
hopefully successful ones usually not right we see the rate of businesses you
know being successful after 10 years it's like 75 or something of them fail uh that's probably inflationary but uh
not the main point the point is that you know they're going to start businesses if the interest rate is quite high less
people will want to loan money because that's more expensive less people will start and invest in businesses there
will be less jobs wages will you know go back down because there's more competition in the labor market more
people are unemployed terrible system to keep people unemployed by necessity for your economy
to function not to mention there actually hasn't been a demonstrated relationship between inflation and the
economy and interest rates being adjusted so if you want to talk about data-driven policy this has been set in
stone since pretty much the 70s with no real demonstration in the data that there's a relationship here and
that's a huge debate among you know neoclassical economists and keynesians versus mm tears right now and kelton and
krugman duke it out in the washington post and the new york times all the time about this but this is this is a crisis
this is not necessary and they call this the non-accelerating inflationary rate of unemployment to keep unemployment at
a certain level with the theory that you know adjusting this will resolve inflation keep it at
about two percent which is what they consider to be healthy there are so many other things we could be doing first of
all if we if we let our economy get to the place of full employment meaning that
everyone who wants a job can get a job uh that is not inflationary you are having these people
produce more goods and more services so if there's more money in the economy more people are spending their wages
more people have money to spend demand's going to go up but also you've just increased gdp you've increased the the
amount of goods and services that people are producing and so if you're using basic supply and demand to just describe
this relationship uh it's it's not going to to suffice to describe it because as
i just stated when supply increases and demand increases you know you're you're pretty much on the curve you're doing
fine and so even by their like neoclassical logic this this policy and this practice doesn't make sense and so
mmtr say instead uh congress should vote to spend money
on things that increase our productive capacity uh or increase you know things
of value in a very meaningful way for long-term sustainability so a lot of talk about the green new deal if the
government decides to vote to fund a program that's all it really takes is if
congress votes to fund any spending the fed by law must issue those dollars must
credit them to that account and so people saying that the fed is some private entity that's not a part of the government is ridiculous and misleading
because by law they must do what congress legislates and so we could vote to spend money on building green energy
infrastructure right building a wind farm this would put people to work
this would create long-run sustainable energy wind turbines essentially pay for themselves after about 10 years it moves
us away from fossil fuels it's great for climate change and you can run all kinds of programs for this this increases our
productive capacity because now we have very inexpensive energy energy that can be used to produce other things
uh so it's a win-win scenario in that case it's really hard to argue with mmt when
it's this kind of really basic logic and reasoning um
and there's not a lot of math involved to understand things like that but it does get tricky because then people say
well how do you know uh when putting more money out there isn't going
to put productive capacity to use or expand the productive capacity of the economy
and that's pretty straightforward uh you could just look at your measure of inflation of course you have to
understand the context right is there a supply chain issue somewhere down the line are we you know
sanctioning a country that produces a lot of grain or a lot of oil or something all of those things lead to
inflation but when we're hyperinflating the dollar when we're putting additional dollars
into the economy when it's already at full speed that's when we've got to worry so what are the indicators of it
being at full speed well do we have real productive resources to put to use are we already at full employment is
everyone who is seeking a job employed actually already
do we have computers that maybe we could put to use that you know employees that are already working somewhere could then
start using that real productive capacity they could become you know more effective if we throw some dollars
behind creating new machinery or putting new tools to use or buying computers from
somewhere abroad but if we're at the point where any new dollars will not go to things like that there's nothing else out there that we
can buy to increase our productive capacity then we're at full speed and the best indicator really is full
employment because it's it's clear as day we know who is unemployed we collect data on that as a society and it's
approximate but it's pretty good uh and once we get to full employment we know that spending additional money will not
put new productive capacity to use and it will be inflationary yeah and and that's that's what's the
most refreshing thing too about mmt that far from being the caricature of what
um you know a bad bad man like larry summers might describe a bad bad man yeah um
you know that oh well they don't live in reality or it's like it's all you know these great abstractions and blah blah
blah it's like no actually it's the complete opposite it's that the mmts are actually living in reality they're actually
talking about not just like paper balance sheets that you can just write
in any number you want they're saying like what are the actual you know
real resources on the ground like when you look at capital when you look at labor what is actually going on like what is
actually how do we allocate scarce resources the fundamental definition of economics
and so they bring back in the qualitative and the subjective and the art of governing because it's not so
much oh well we get in whether we're the center left or the center right and we both agree we have to have balanced
budgets and we have to think very sort of binary and and quantitatively
when it's like you're saying it's like no no let's let's actually talk about like what would be a good sector to
invest in what is the right um jobs for people to have and it's like and there's the baseline which is are we
at full employment and then it becomes well are those jobs actually contributing
to the underlying value in the economy and that's where you start to bring up the quantity theory of money which is
sort of it can be used for bad and for good and it's the main reason why people have
this relationship fixed in their head of okay so you have the quantity theory of money money times velocity equals the
price level times the real goods and services in the economy um you know py
so it's like the traditional economic jargon goes well you hold
velocity constant because reasons and then you hold the goods and service in the comedy constant because
reasons and so now you have this direct relationship so whenever you increase the money supply de facto you've caused
inflation and vice versa but again like you were getting at well actually
if you play with the algebra a bit you actually realize increasing the money supply can affect
if we don't hold y constant what the real goods and services in the economy are so actually by increasing
the money supply there is an outcome here where you actually lower inflation
and so far be it from the sort of solutions that are parroted right now of well there needs to be contraction there
needs to be high interest rates that we need to cause unemployment to reduce demand that will solve everything no
actually there we might be in a situation where we need to expand the money supply or expand credit from sort
of an indirect method through the private banking sector there needs to actually be more
infrastructure in the economy in this monetary sense in the real economy and
not in this sort of fake asset world that so many of these people live in exactly yeah i get so much feedback
because i talk about this stuff in a very public way where i'm at the mercy of like the internet and algorithms for
where my videos go and it reaches a lot of people who have a background in the kind of economics
that you learn in a school that wants you to go get a job afterwards right they want you to
work for a business and the kind of econ that is taught for people who go into
finance and for people who go into business it's a lot of market-based economics it's a lot of models and i my
advisor ken said all models are wrong some models are useful which is probably the
most important thing you can know if you're studying economics but it's true that they they
are living in a world that's pretty disconnected from reality right you've got all of these models you've got your
idea of what should be happening in the market even if you think about the kind of trading that goes on in the stock
market i mean they're really not living in reality it's a lot of futures trading it's a lot of swaps these aren't the
real prices of things they they really have little to do with what's going on in the real economy and to have these
people assume that because they understand markets and they understand finance that
they understand public money and they understand how to manage a monetary system
you hardly hear people talk about the monetary system in economics courses and so
because there are these people that think because they've sorted it out and they've got the islm curve and all of
these different models to explain things that they've got a full understanding about how things should go
it's just not real and so because our capacity for understanding data is so much better now it's a lot
easier to say well we can't actually demonstrate these models in the data so perhaps we've got it wrong perhaps it's
time to question these models and go back to what what do we actually
know um but also refocus the folks that that do think like you said anytime we increase
the monetary supply or the money supply it's going to be inflationary a lot of these people actually still believe we
have something like the gold standard they really think that that we have a backed currency i get comments all the
time that's like unless we increase the supply of gold of course we can't increase the currency and it's like oh
no 1934 you know we passed the gold reserve act you've had people in the united
states couldn't go to the treasury and say like here are my dollars give me some gold and then in 71 foreign
countries couldn't do it either and so it hasn't been in place for quite some time we've got a fiat currency we don't
have anything intrinsically backing our dollars other than the real productive capacity
of our economy that gives our dollars value you know the authority of the american government uh all of those things give our currency
value but understanding that inflation is simply a measure of price increases over
time and that the most common figure we we talk about on the news and you know
in financial columns summers talks about this one a lot is cpi uh the consumer price index what they're doing is
they're running surveys to households saying what did you buy in at what price it's not like they're taking
a thermometer right and injecting it into the economy and scientifically reading the dollar is worth this percent
less which really if you observe discourse among people online who talk about inflation it seems like they think
the fed has this down to a science uh that they're taking the temperature of what's going on in the economy uh
saying you know inflation's at this much so that means we need to do x y and z policies it's not as clear as that so
if i report back to the fed say i get surveyed um or like the bureau of labor statistics
uh and i say like i'm buying x y and z at you know this price
i am one person i could not be buying anything that has
gone up in price over the past year or the past few months someone else could be buying things that have all gone up
in price and so if you look at what they do is they take an average market basket so it's
not like they're tracking every single thing in the economy and weighting it equally but really what are the most
people buying what are the items that are the most popular and they weight them accordingly and they have this
average market basket of goods and they're tracking the price change over time so let's say you don't spend
any money on the things that are going up in price you're not going to experience that your dollar has any less
value it has you know you're buying the same things that you always have at the same price and there will always be people who say well you know if prices
go up you can buy less with your dollars and so your dollar is devalued it's not as clean as that um
and so we really have to go back to this reality of what is inflation measuring
this tool is not perfect by any means and the fed's response is is basically
we'll adjust uh interest rates a little bit and hope that that resolves it and so it's just such a mess and jeremy
alston has this great analogy he works with marketwatch and does a podcast with stephanie kelton he always talks about
the fed's trick of adjusting interest rates as adjusting a thermostat to hopefully change the temperature but
as we would point out uh when you adjust the thermostat there's actually you know things that happen in your heating
system where the temperature will go up right more water will get boiled it'll go through the pipes or whatever your
house will get heated that's a system but we haven't actually observed that when we increase interest
rates we're going to see inflation go back down and so it's not a science and so many people think
it is a science and they think they're doing science but what they're doing is disconnected from reality and that is
the main thing to take away and it sucks because you always hear people say like mm tears are living in a fantasy world
they think we can just print more money to get rid of all of our problems and that's not what we're saying we've
been always very clear about what the constraints are for spending and more importantly it's it's not reality that
for every dollar you print every other dollar is is devalued or it's going to lead to price increases somewhere
and rowan gray puts this really well where he says if new money enters the economy and price setters aren't around
to see it will prices go up will we experience inflation and that demonstrates that
that pretty well uh because i i don't think we would see inflation however if we gave everyone dollars uh working
class people with a high propensity to spend right that means their quality of life will increase if they're if they
spend some more money and get some more things that they would need or would make them more comfortable whereas you
know if someone has a lot of money if they get a few more dollars they might just save it right their quality of life
might not change that much for a few additional dollars but let's say we we do give money to people with a high propensity to spend we give everyone
like ten thousand dollars yeah that's going to lead to an increase in demand and therefore price increases
and therefore inflation that's not what mm tiers are proposing uh at all we're
proposing that we spend money to get to full employment and i think the coolest part about all of it
is it will actually improve people's quality of life and i think the reason people believe the folks who are you
know living in the fantasy world right our finance bros are larry summers neoclassical economists that are
clinging to theory that's essentially been disproven at this point but they sound really smart and they
went to the best schools and they've done the math and they've got these models that look really advanced
people believe them because they're telling the public that if we don't do this your life's
going to get worse you're going to have to spend more money on things and that's really scary if you're living
paycheck to paycheck you're like oh no like i hope this guy fix fixes the
economy because i can't afford the price of gas going up i can hardly get to work and so it's really exploiting fear which
is a huge problem and so then when someone like me comes along it's like this young girl and the cowboy hat on
tick tock and i'm like hey we can print more money they're like no no no no this is terrifying and so
it's it's important to tell the story that the kind of of world and economy
that mmt can build is one where if we get to full employment
think about what corporations will have to do for their employees so if the government guarantees a living wage to
like 25 an hour right now uh i would say is probably what people are saying it's definitely no longer 15.
and there's full benefits and you're doing work that is meaningful right you're building clean energy
infrastructure things we've agreed upon that we need or want as a society that's
much more fulfilling and the pay is better so it's going to increase the quality of work in the private sector in
markets uh and that's the kind of world we would want to live in but explaining
how spending money to get to full employment and funding these programs where people
will be employed as public employees and explaining that that won't cause inflation i think is our our biggest
hurdle right now because of the fear that's out there yeah yeah and to maybe use uh
a well-worn analogy of like the the robin crouseau island that always kind
of comes up in economic classrooms um it's not perfect but just to say like you know whether it's like an
inflationary period or a recession or whatever it might be that's like this event one where your ship crashes
and what the mainstreamers are kind of saying like okay the best thing to do to survive
everyone stay still and don't do anything whereas the mmters and other adjacent schools would be more so like
no we have to create some sort of like system some rudimentary collective organizing
that like money has been a tool of that type of system for a long time to say like okay you guys go get firewood you
guys go get pineapples you guys go build the shelter and then you look at those two camps and
you say who has the higher likelihood of survival is it the neoliberals who say
just sit on your butt and like don't actually like engage in real resource um extraction and production and
consumption or is it the people that are actually engaging in that and so like when you look at it like that weighs
just simply you start to see yeah there is a feedback loop actually to the money supply and that it's not just like you
as a working class or a middle class person saying oh my god all that
increase in the money supply is doing is somehow attacking me no it's actually going into the pocketbooks of your neighbor your family
and also increasing the overall goods and services in the economy so now you actually are benefiting
right yeah yeah it's like exactly correct so
a lot of people think about the deficit is we are in debt right like we have to go into debt to put all this stuff to
use and collectively meet our needs uh wrong no the deficit is
simply a record of of all of the dollars that have already been created and the best analogy here is that the
government's red ink is our black ink stephanie kelton says this a lot uh and
it's true that they write x amount of dollars go out they create the dollars they're in the economy now hopefully
being put to good use not going to a failing business or you know eventually ending up staying in the
pockets of billionaires who are getting tax breaks whatever uh in any case that's that's dollars that are in the
economy for us to use it's our surplus right we're never going to have to pay that money back and a lot of our debt is
financed and and is in bonds which is unnecessary right we don't need to issue
bonds where it's like okay the government's spending x amount of money let's sell this amount of bonds at this
fixed interest rate and and people buy them up for the guaranteed interest that's not necessary uh the government
can simply manage the money supply without financing the debt um
and so to have people think about you know this way of organizing the economy is oh my gosh we're in so much debt if
we were to have a deficit of zero uh there would
be no dollars to erase the deficit uh that would collapse the economy that's not a great thing to do
and so to scare people out of a system that would actually help them is a huge
problem uh and people always talk about the system of trade and barter initially
right are we going to organize all together to meet our needs right you get the the wood you go out and fish
whatever but the the alternative the the story the origin story of money that you hear
of on the island and you know crusoe's out fishing and someone else is collecting firewood and
they need to trade but oh my god no i don't actually need firewood right now but you need fish so what are we gonna
do um instead of saying like oh i'll give you the fish now and you'll owe me something
which is closer to what actually happened that anthropologists have found uh instead they say they started using
uh you know means of exchange like seashells like really pretty seashells as currency and then eventually they you
know created currency out of some like pretty clay with stamps and then eventually you know they get to
something of real intrinsic value like gold and you're trading with gold um
not the real origin story of money but the way they say it plays out is uh then you have uh you know people
worried about carrying gold around and instead you have these goldsmiths
that would hold gold for people and uh give them a receipt and then
people started just trading the receipts because you can go to the goldsmith exchange it for your gold and the theory
is that these goldsmiths ended up becoming bankers right and the reason that they kept the gold with the
goldsmiths is because they already had safes and things to store the gold but the idea is that because they were
offering this service they become the banks and they realize well no one's ever going to bring all of
their receipts at the same time and so i don't actually have to keep all this gold here i can issue more receipts than
i actually have right and so this theory of like reserves and fractional reserve
banking and lending by the banks and that's how we have banks right that's the theory that they they have
for where money came from anthropologists who have studied history and human behavior found that that's not
true and and the first records uh of of just writing that we have uh
from like humans were records of debt and a lot of debt came from like uh kind
of like gift giving so like if you were to to help a group of people they would give you a gift and say this is a symbol
that you know we're indebted to you because you helped us out and really the origin of money is in debt
um it's it's always been debt and oftentimes it's been this sort of thing where it's
always authority figures issuing currency when we get to the point of currency
um and it's because they they're able to use force to make people use the
currency they can levy taxes right a lot of people talk about the tally sticks uh
and they you know break the tally stick uh this is essentially the currency you go out and you can you know trade and
and use it for whatever you want but they issue the currency you have to work for them they're going to collect it in
taxes from you at the end of the year and so most currency most monies origin story is someone with a lot of power
forcing people to use that currency so that they do work for them and they extract the value of their labor it's
always been this unequal power structure and mmt is saying
this is messed up it doesn't have to actually be like this uh and it's really a democratic economic theory which is i
think missing for so many people uh just that that that can be a thing it's so far-fetched and the idea of an
economic system is just not something people think about on a day-to-day basis probably because they're trying to pay
their bills because their economic system is awful and they're very distracted by just trying to get by that they don't have a
lot of mental space the last thing people want to do i think at the end of the day is sit down and think you know what's really wrong with our economy and
how can we fix this collectively to live in a better society just not what people want to do when they wind down for the day
yeah yeah and and like you said like getting at that notion of is this a democratic system and
and what we've done now that we've gotten to 2022 is um you touched on it earlier a little bit
um that really it's the private banking sector that is actually creating most of the money and that the
central banks of the world act actually act a lot of times in this reactionary fashion where you know is
the tail wagging the dog or is the dog like wagging the tail and so when you see that like some stats are that 97 of the money
supply is actually this like private bank credit expansion so then you look at if there's obvious
huge monopolization of the industry by various big banks uh and then even where there are medium
to small banks that are sort of strong throughout the economy in the us for instance i believe it's gone from in
2000 of like around 14 000 banks to now it's around 7 000. so there's this
further and further consolidation and thus a de-democratizing of this this money
creation process and thus the money direction process of who gets it so we we keep going into this um world where
there's a few bankers out there that are deciding you know if your family has food on the table if there's money to
supply credit for the business that then it can pay wages at a fair level um it's like why why are we allowing this
fundamental role to just be outsourced to these bankers which have proven time and time again
uh they are not responsible parties so what what would you say is that answer to the question of why has there been
this dereliction of duty that you know seems to coincide with this 1980s neoliberal revolution
ah yes the timing is interesting as well isn't it um i would say the presence of bankers in
positions of power the influence of lobbying all of these things i mean members of congress
for since the founding of our nation were members of the ruling class and this of course is not something that
they would ever want taught in public schools and so people don't really know about how things are working so they get
to manage it in whatever way benefits them right so many people who end up working in government we're bankers with
goldman sachs we see it all the time and so i would say it's it's because in the united states
we're pretty much living in an oligarchy at this point where a lot of the people that are executives of banks and our
owners of capital and our owners of investment firms have power in government and end up in government or
their their partners are people who are bankers if they are a member of congress and
that's a huge problem that's a conflict of interest of course those people aren't going to govern in the interests of the people
they're going to maintain this system that benefits them uh and and keeps
their pockets lined and so how do we change a system like that well i think
the flow of information is very different today and of course i'm going to go to that because
people are actually really hungry to understand what's going on in our government and what the heck is
happening in our economy we all have to live in this economy every day right
right now it's bankers making decisions about how our resources to use are used what our wages are decisions that impact
if we put food on the table we all have to live with the consequences of the decisions that are made with our
economic system so why don't most people understand it
i would point to yes we've been intentionally left in the dark there's not a lot of public education but also
mainstream media that's funded by corporate advertisements isn't going to to run programming on how our monetary
system works of course and so because now we have this freedom of information and how it flows
you know i can make a tick tock that's that's breaking this down i have this you know exclusive knowledge because i
went into a ton of debt to go to graduate school and figure this out because i was stubbornly curious but
that's also a big mistake of the bankers and their greed right they want to make money off of student loan interest and
financing that and so working class kids now get to go to college and
learn all of these things and of course as someone who grew up in you know the recession and feeling the impacts of
financial uh tightening and economic oppression in the united states of course i'm going to be angry and want to
expose how this is running and i can because we have things like the internet
uh apps like tiktok that run on algorithms where i don't have to have a power or an existing platform for people
to see that video if they find it interesting or entertaining and they watch it the algorithm is going to
reward it because tick tock wants people to stay on the app they want people to keep watching and so if someone's making
content that engages people they stay on the app longer they watch more advertisements tick tock makes more
money again capitalism leading to its own demise because now people are watching these
videos where i'm you know explaining what i what i've learned because of you know the education i have stuff that should
be taught in public school but isn't um and now people are figuring out that the
things aren't so good right and that's really how we change it but i think a part of the reason this change
has taken so long uh and we've really seen people just stick to to neoliberalism
for as long as they have is because information to debunk it hasn't been out there really the only information about
it has been you know news which we know is just going to uphold the dominant narrative
um and so when people are living in that sort of bubble of propaganda and they have the fear of wanting to meet their
basic needs and being worried that there's going to be another recession if they make the wrong decisions with how they're they're doing fiscal and
monetary policy you know they'll believe the propaganda they'll believe the news but now there's all these other
narratives out there so i have hope that even though it's been permanent for so long now is
the time where it's going to start changing because i do believe in consensus-based change i don't believe
like a few people should say you know we figured this all out uh we're gonna have a revolution because
like this faction of people says we should and uh you know we're gonna use violence to impose our will upon the
people even if people are making decisions that are not in their self-interest right now
i don't think that's the right way to bring about change i think it's got to be spreading this information getting more people on board and i think we're
getting closer to that every day thanks to how information flows which is also why center censorship is really scary
because it jeopardizes that change uh but i think we're in a better place now
yeah yeah and so that brings us to definitely your presence on tick-tock and really
making this foundation to educate people on there about these different subjects
so you know why do you think there's this impulse i mean it's it's a matter of just sort of
you know callousness of sort of traditional academia embracing new things
being stubborn but you know why do you think there is sort of like oh you you
can't do that on social media you need to spend years of your life writing away behind a
closed door and then you'll make a paper that 10 people read and nothing happens
um not saying that that stuff shouldn't happen in parallel but like why do you think social media is so
important and this in this goal of dissemination and popular consensus
should be a priority yeah firstly you know it's it's democratic i
believe in popular democracy and i want a popular movement right i don't want to make this reality
of an mmt driven economy real or democratized economy real
unless it's it's what people want right it's not going to work either if people aren't on board uh and
so it's important for that purpose because i want a popular movement in our lifetime because i want to make this
real and i also want it to work i don't want there to be some you know secret op that that takes it
down and effectively so because people don't believe in it right if everyone's not on board that is a recipe for this
thing to collapse and i think after working for the bernie campaign
i really realized that that most people are quite curious and are are good
people so i believe it's possible and therefore a worthwhile endeavor uh when i was in graduate school i really
thought you know maybe one day i would get a phd spend my life writing papers that no one would read
that's no way to bring about a popular movement but it's still important work because to understand these systems as
complex as they are you need to spend all of your waking hours study studying them and that's good work for people to
do so that other people can read them and apply you know what they've learned hopefully they're effective at
communicating it or they're someone who can go and read that research paper and and make it usable for everyone else
so academia is still useful uh but right now it just kind of felt like my role was in
spreading the ideas uh so knocking doors for the bernie campaign was was the moment where i was like yeah
most people are good and things can change because if you talk to someone for long enough after they've regurgitated the stuff
that they hear on the news and the stuff they hear on their facebook pages with the people who agree on politics with
them right people have their tribes they have people that they trust we're still very tribal
when i was thinking about giving the ted talk i really wanted to do it in a way that it would reach people and people
just wouldn't hear the typical words that they hear you know talked about on the left like
socialism and immediately tune out and and not get anything from it i
really wanted to reach people so i met with this cognitive neuroscientist who's brilliant steve sloman and he really wanted to study
how do we change people's minds uh and why are people so set in their political
views in the united states why do we see polarization happening big questions uh but you know cognitive
neuroscientists asking them was super interesting to me and he found some interesting answers
through his research so he found people have this thing that he calls the knowledge curse so you would
ask someone uh draw a bicycle and people would draw a bicycle from
memory and it wouldn't be functional right the chain wouldn't be connected to the
wheels as soon as they had to draw one they would realize oh i actually have no idea how a bicycle works uh but people
have this idea that they they could draw the bicycle um because they know other
people who are bike mechanics and they've seen bikes a lot and other people create bikes and bikes are
everywhere and so they wanted to explore this phenomenon more and they ran interesting surveys to people where
they said uh congress has this new policy proposal they're very confident they understand what its effects will be
how confident are you that you understand it people rated their understanding then they asked an another
question where you know there's this new policy congress doesn't understand it at all
how well do you feel you understand it people rated their understanding much lower
when congress understood it all other things held constant and he's concluded through a lot of
research in this similar fashion that we assume other people's knowledge is
our own because we are such collective and social creatures we depend on each other
and that's really important to to know when it comes to politics because if
someone threatens the knowledge of you and your tribe you're you're now not engaging in terms
of well what do i understand what's going on here no it's i heard someone else in my tribe say this thing i assume that
they've sorted it out and they have the knowledge to back up the reasoning there and so i'm going to regurgitate that
issue as something that i support and believe in as they've said it rather than making the decision for
themselves so if you talk to people long enough which i would often do when canvassing just knocking doors talking
to voters you realize that most people have similar values most people are quite logical and
most people believe the propaganda of mainstream news in the united states they believe what we've been told they
believe the dominant narrative but they're quite capable of critically thinking uh and people want to live in a
society where their needs are met people are hungry for it in the united states as well right they see that their
quality of life has decreased over the you know past few years significantly and so change is possible and that's
that's the biggest thing is that you know even though we have these people on social media saying
well i heard x y and z people just like to be right people just like to say things that they believe are true and
things that they've heard their tribe say i think that's that's all it is uh and learning can be fun and doing it
in a way where it's not like i have this knowledge and like i know better than you because like i went to
an ivy league and blah blah blah blah that's like not helpful at all like the reason that you should be teaching other
people is because there is a good reason for you to get the knowledge that's in your head in their head and that is because we can
build a better society together if we get if we build consensus around better ideas for how our society should run
yeah yeah and we spoke a little bit about some of mark white's work and i i think
he has a nice um adjacent notion here of that um like the people like people are
actually pretty intelligent and they get it from like a very uh gut instinct level
and when you try to come to them and like talk down to them and sort of use your credentialing to just say shut up
and listen or or whatever and especially you're still not providing results like
at a certain point people don't care and now it's just a matter of antagonisms and so now people that are feeling like
you screwed over my wage level you screwed over my employment you screwed over um the goods and services that are
around me all these things are getting screwed over because of your neoliberal policy set um yeah why why wouldn't i
want to punish you in some way regardless of whatever i think because obviously a lot of people that are
disaffected are people that would be from traditional sort of like union background or sort of people that would
be conducive to some of these ideas um so for fundamentally sort of understanding that there needs to be a
um an egalitarian footing of communication and that their needs to actually make
the effort of the communication and thus the primary information uh battlefield that has opened up as you
described is social media and there needs to be a diversity of opinions on there because what seems to
be the case is that a lot of people with with good ideas might also be subject to this like ivory tower syndrome where
it's like they think just talking to 10 other professors all their life is actually going to make change meanwhile
one of the things that we've seen in the past 10 years or so come up and as a recovering crypto bro turned skeptic i
get very aware of it like the fundamental social media economic phenomenon
was cryptocurrency and people being disaffected and brought into this dead end ideology that's like oh it's it's
it's new it's sort of this is the way out this is the exit ramp and it's not it's it's just more of the same if
anything it's just hyper neoliberalism and so being able to get in there and actually
jab with those sort of competing ideologies is so vitally important because that's where everyone's going
right now and you're just seeding ground if you don't yeah exactly it's really where everyone
is and the crypto thing is so interesting at one point i was like oh this is like
fascinating like i had invested in crypto before i understood it and then i was like oh whoops um
and it's okay i think that's the main thing is people uh feel the need to really own
their identity and not change when they get new information right to get
defensive rather than take information in and make better decisions and i don't know where that comes from that's
something for like a sociologist or psychologist to sort out but uh i think i've grown so much from
saying okay like let's get new information let's change like freedom to change who you are as a person i think
you know not everyone has that but it's really important to get people out of crypto and it's so sad that so many
people became disaffected and distrustful of the people managing
the dollar managing the money supply managing our monetary system that sucks that we got to the point
where people hated it so much and wanted an alternative that they were willing to
to do anything and invest money in things they don't understand uh and i remember getting so much heat
for talking about crypto way before the recent crypto crashes basically saying that
what what's going on here is they're they're taking advantage of people's you know fears right they don't want to
partake in the monetary system they're angry taking advantage of people's anger and they want an alternative and they
saw crypto as this alternative to the dollar when it's truly not when cryptocurrency really gets all of
its value from the investment of fiat currency and fiat currency gets its value from you know those monetary
systems the real productive capacity of those economies and the things they produce of real value and the authority of their governments
but it's speculation at the end of the day when it gets its value from investment of fiat currency
however there is no financial regulation no fdic insurance no reserves to back up
cryptocurrencies or stable coins and that means that if you're investing
money that you don't have to lose that you're going to eventually need to exchange to dollars so that you
can pay your bills buy your food and then it crashes or something goes wrong and
there's no insurance to back up your investments in any way or you're just losing money at a really rapid pace
because it's extremely volatile it's not even an issue with like the value of the stable coin losing its uh parity with
the dollar things of that nature even if it's just regular volatility these people are investing in something and
people are losing their houses uh and so at the end of the day it's a government
failure right uh they should have made sure that they were regulating cryptocurrency way back in the day when
rowan grain and uh rowan gray and rashida talib introduced the stablecoin act where they
said you know we've got to have fdic insurance we've got to have reserves there's got to be regulation here
because this could really crash significant parts of the economy and have real consequences for people
and the people who are benefiting are still rich people right it's just like the stock market the people who are
benefiting are the people who can put in millions of dollars make a bunch of money and then pull out really quickly
uh and at the end of the day people like elon musk who are now getting sued for
you know dogecoin i'm not sure what the exact lawsuit is but like like saying that he's essentially a part of a
pyramid scheme by using his public platform to get all this hype for the dogecoin he invests money in it he makes
money from it he pulls out all of the people who invested money they probably can't really afford to lose right the
spare money that they had because they thought they were making a bunch of money off of it when rich people pull out that's a significant chunk of the
investment that was in dogecoin that's going to tank the currency when we see these sell-offs by people who have invested a ton of money in crypto it's
hurting all of the little guys and so is this a better alternative to the dollar at the end of the day or is it
essentially the same thing and realizing that it's hurting people uh who are investing in it from a place
of desperation i was like i cannot support this anymore but when i said stuff like that before the
recent crypto crash happened people weren't really receptive of it people still wanted to believe in crypto right it's
so fun it's on your phone and there's all these different figures we've got to make public financial technology a thing
so that there is an alternative and if you want to learn more about public fintech highly
recommend raul carrillo and rowan gray as well but definitely raul who talks about this really often
where we just need financial infrastructure public banking and public banking that can happen on your phone uh
we need to make the use of currency more accessible and maybe a little bit more fun uh and also democratize it so that
people don't hate it because there's only going to be worse and worse currency alternatives i think
people trying yeah and from what i've seen a lot of the time is like it's not like you know
every single person that gets involved in crypto like is somehow like indiscriminately evil or something
none of their ideas are good like what i often see from the software side is like a lot of people have great like front
end ideas like oh let's let's make the ux more interactive and more dynamic
more easy to use efficient and it's like like great but it's like you know you're
building it on this backbone of something that's unstable like you could you could do that with the traditional
finance system you could even like you were saying start start integrating that software talent into building these
public money utilities um that have those front ends that actually makes things better and so like no one's
saying there can't be innovation there can't be advancement in these fields but it's just getting back to this like well
what is it premised on is there an actual uh security net for people all this sort
of stuff so so cool so that's so that's crypto in a nutshell um as we kind of get into this part i
thought might be fun to do somewhat of a lightning round of kind of going through what you find to be
the top myths of mmt and then you debunking them so what would you say are
the top three myths of mmt um that the deficit is debt and money we
will all have to pay back uh that's the biggest one obama's saying
you know the the we're taking out your credit card with the bank of china
that your children are going to have to pay off the deficit is not foreign debt and in fact what is foreign debt is not
necessarily a bad thing and running trade deficits is not necessarily a bad thing because we have a surplus of goods
uh if there is a trade deficit we need to be thinking about what's happening in the real economy also foreign debt other
countries want to hold dollars there is a demand for the dollar uh that is not
necessarily a bad thing also we will never run out of our own currency we could have everyone cash in their
foreign debt at the same time we're not going to collapse the economy if that happens there are things that we
can do to ensure that the dollar does not collapse we could always print new dollars even if everyone also cashes in
their bonds which is related not foreign held bonds but actually
treasury bonds held by people in the united states even if everyone cashes those in at the same time the economy is
not going to collapse uh also that's not going to happen there's not going to be one day where everyone goes and tries to
cash in their bonds uh with interest so i would say you know the deficit is
not foreign debt those two things are different foreign debt's not necessarily a bad thing you will not have uncle sam knocking on
your door saying we've got to pay off the debt the federal reserve will likely push a button and credit the necessary
accounts and like i said the real constraints on inflation and problems that will be caused as a result of this
are things that can be handled in the real economy because increasing the money supply is only a problem if it
increases demand so much so that we see extreme price increases which is unlikely to happen because most people
who hold government bonds don't have a high propensity to spend anyway yeah
yeah um okay so then uh two and three that's one yes one all
right two and three uh taxes are unnecessary and mm tiers believe that
that taxes are unnecessary also it's it's two things can't be true at
once and you'll see people making the same criticism so i'm just gonna use taxes as the second one but people
saying that mm tiers don't think taxes are necessary we absolutely believe in taxing the rich it's very important to
have a pretty equal money supply right we don't want some people hoarding a bunch of wealth taxing the rich is the
tool we have to reduce inequality when it comes to you know where money is and
also people will say that the solution to inflation that mm tiers have is to
increase taxes that is not the preferred solution everyone who's a proponent of mmt will
tell you the best defense uh for inflation is a good offense which means that you're managing fiscal and monetary
policy so that you're assessing what's happening in the real economy and seeing where there are potential inflationary
pressures and avoiding them and when inflation is already there the solution is not to raise taxes um
it's just not what most people would prefer to do there are so many other things you can do for example
price stability measures james galbraith whose you know father was in the
administration as an economic advisor during world war ii is a huge advocate for you know
price stability policy measures and there are some people in congress who are thinking about doing this right now which i think it's a very good idea but
that is a much more preferred solution right corporations that are profitable should not be increasing prices when
they could still be profitable otherwise on people who are struggling to pay their bills it's pretty simple that's
just not something that should happen and so that's a much preferred solution to inflation than you know raising taxes
on people no mm tiers are saying like this is our end-all be-all um
and the last one is just uh that printing more dollars will always cause inflation
every single time it's done uh it's just not a clean relationship we don't have the gold standard anymore there are
other constraints on spending and inflation is a problem in specific
case scenarios where we've put money into people's hands in a way that's increasing demand uh increasing the
money supply in a sense where you know we're already at our real productive capacity has been
met all of our real productive resources are in use we're at full employment spending money into the economy then is
inflationary and there's all sorts of things that can happen in the economy that can cause prices to go up that cause inflation
and pointing at increasing the money supply is just austerity politics it's just a reason
for people to advocate for budget cuts because they want to keep the working class vulnerable to exploitation because
as we've covered the government is essentially run by oligarchs by the same people who have an interest in having a
high return on investment for their stocks they want the corporations and banks to be doing well not only because they've got investments
but also because likely their partners are working at goldman sachs yeah yeah um so great so so those are
the big myths of mmc debunked um i thought it'd be good now to if you
could kind of give a brief summary of the intellectual history of mmt and maybe sort of the proto movements that
went informed mmt and then covering sort of those authors that maybe people who go read them if
there's any recommended reading you also have for people to do so if you could elaborate on that that'd be great
yeah i don't want to miss people but i think someone really good to look at i mean this is the first person i read
there are people who came you know before these people that i haven't read much of but warren mosler
is this person who has a background in like finance actually and you know
wasn't necessarily an academic for all of his life and stephanie kelton set out to kind of
debunk mmt uh and and worked with mosler did a lot of reading of mosler ended up you know
at his house talking about it she really set out to say like mmt is ridiculous this theory is wrong and here's why
ended up becoming a proponent of mmt through that project love that there's like a nightmare alternative universe
where stephanie kelton's like a neoliberal show she became like larry summers bestie
instead i never want to live in that universe that's so funny uh so that's huge also i
would say david graber made substantial contributions to mmt uh he wrote a book
called debt the first something years uh great great book really covers the
anthropological foundation of money and currency creation which is essential for
understanding mmt because we don't believe it came out of a system of trade and barter so definitely read graber
there's also you know randall ray bill mitchell who are people who are very good at explaining mmt and doing so in a
way that's really accessible even if you don't have a background in economics there's also people like delman coats
who is a pastor in dc who does a he connects mmt to really civil rights
activism and has led like marches and things um and now we have pavlina chernova uh
who's also great who wrote this book uh the case for a job guarantee mariana mazzucato's also really good would
recommend reading her uh definitely in the same circles as as kelton and pavlina and we have some newer folks who
are like really developing infrastructure for mmt like uh andres bernal who was a policy director for uh
aoc during her first run rule carrillo uh rowan gray nathan tankis uh who is you know kind of
self-taught uh really heavy hitter but what i would say like in the larger context we had uh you know neoclassical
economics a lot of people like think adam smith uh
you know then i think adam smith would be the big one but we also have people like milton
friedman um and you know public facing pig figures like reagan and thatcher that were
really like making those those writings into policy which is terrifying then we have like uh you know heterodox econ
where we have people like marx uh but also people like keynes uh which is sort of like okay these
people were wrong neoliberalism isn't great but uh i still kind of believe that
the the way that we manage inflation and actually adjusting interest rates is kind of useful but we can have
government spending the keynesians i think are are having trouble defending
models that are no longer useful um and i think would benefit if they
actually read mmt before they criticized it that's my i take um i think they would find that they probably agree with
it because if they're smart enough to understand that the neoclassical econ is not the way to go we should probably move on to something else but anyway so
you have the keynesians which is kind of like the post neoclassical thinkers the next iteration they're better in terms
of actually running an economy for human benefit than the neoclassical folks uh
the heterodox folks like marxists and such would probably reject the keynesians all together
and then i would say mm tiers are kind of this this next step right we've taken everything we've learned from
neoclassical econ keynesian the heterodox folks and we're putting it into something new and something that's
very applicable so that's where i'd say it would fall and i'm not someone who's always been heterodox right i came to
mmt through first studying neoclassical econ and really understanding that and believing that to be true and then
realizing the inconsistencies moving more towards you know the keynesian way of thinking then heterodox completely
reading a lot of marks uh you know a lot of marx and angles all sorts of minsky and and real heterodox
thinkers and then into mmt because keep in mind the times that a lot of these authors
were writing this theory were very different from the world we live in today we need to update our econ theory
to match the society we live in today but also integrate it with sociology and public policy
so that it's not just you know people talking about models and talking about things in the classroom but actually so
that it's applicable in the real world to bring about real change and better systems and so that's where i see mmt
really falling in in the history of academic thought
awesome so that's that is a great syllabus for people to check out and and dive deep into
so yeah so i think this has been a really rewarding conversation of sort of deconstructing these myths and and going
into exactly what mmt is and how useful it can be um so yeah is there any projects that
you want to plug anything that where people can find you you want to share yeah definitely tune in to the tick tock
i'm going to be getting up a youtube channel soon i need to start writing things as well but if you follow the
tick tock and my twitter you'll be able to to find it just search jessica burbank it should come up uh and
then i'm on the young turks regularly tying in how a lot of my approach to thinking about econ and the world and politics
into current events and that's a ton of fun so tune in to the young turks the tick tock
twitter and i'll be there great great well this has been fun thanks for coming on jessica
thank you so much this has been awesome [Music]
[音楽]大丈夫、私はジェシカ・バーバンクと一緒にここにいます。彼女はmmtと経済学のすべてについて話します。そして、ええと、あなたがumにいるのは大きな喜びです。もちろん、mmtの種類がより広いものに分岐することについて少し話します。経済学いくつかの今日の問題ええと、それが私たちをどこに導くのかを見て、ジェシカはあなた自身についての短いバイオイントロを教えてください。ええと、そうです。私の経歴は、米国の不況の中で育ちました。国で何が起こっているのかについてかなり批判的です。なぜ私たちが良いものを持てないのかを正確に理解していませんが、多くの神話を本当に信じています。どこかで誰かが数字を実行したことを知っているとあなたに言われました、そしてそれが私たちができる理由です」いいことをしているし、大学の学位を持っている人がいない家庭で育ったので、ニュースで聞いたことはほとんど私たちを受け入れてくれます。実際には別の視点はなく、私の両親は批判的な思想家ですが、アメリカの公立学校で経済学やその他のことを実際に学んでいないものは、私たちがすべきだと思いますが、私がこれらの多くの視点にさらされたのは学部生になるまでは実際にはありませんでした学校は経済的安全に最も確実な賭けだったので、私が大学に行くつもりではなかったので、本当に幸運になりました。あなたの下で勉強した本当に小さな学校に行きました。社会科学に精通しているクンビ・ルンバ・カサンゴと同様に、環境経済学者は私にとって大きなメンターでした。そのため、彼らの下で学ぶことは非常に大きなものでした。物事ええと、それは本当に私には向いていなかったし、本当にすることはあまりなかったので、私は大学院に行きました。公共政策が私にとって最良の道だと思った多くの政治学と国際研究は、データ主導の公共政策を行い、金融システムについて多くのことを考えることになりましたが、財政政策と金融政策がどのように異なるかは理解されていませんでした」経済学部や大学院での会話が多かったので、今はそれをたくさんやっていますが、大学院を卒業した後は、ステファニー・ケルトンの作品を理解したバーニー・サンダースキャンペーンに参加しました。彼女は予算委員会の彼の経済顧問だったので、そこから、1トンが整理のためのより多くのデータ作業を行い、側でティックトックを行い、大学院で勉強したことの多くに本当に追いつくことになったと勉強しました大学院の学位を取得するのにとても便利ですが、それは本当に楽しかったです。これらのアイデアを探求できて本当に幸運でした。今では、多くの経済学以外のすべての話をカバーする若いトルコ人と一緒に仕事をしています。かっこいいので、それはええと」興味深い起源の話なので、これらのアイデアの多くは、主流の中に座っているのではなく、さまざまな側面から主流にやって来ていることを知っていると思います。これらの流域があります。ええと、あなたが知っているようなああのような瞬間iiはこのことについて一種の好奇心があり、それからこれはまったく新しい世界を開いたので、あなたがどのような政策問題やどのような経済理論のようなあなたにとって本当に分水嶺の瞬間であったかができればそれを探求したことで、経済学を見る新しい方法が実際に開かれました。大学院で私たちがユビについて学んでいた瞬間がありました。多くの人にとって、これは資本主義を修正する1つのことのように思えます。誰もが収入を持っているので、多くの人が同意する最も基本的なニーズを満たすことができます。何年もの間、人間は地球上で支配的な種になりました。なぜなら、彼らは共同でニーズを満たすために協力しているからです。これはアダム・スミスがよく話していることであり、私たちはそれから少し離れて、巨大です。問題は正しいです人々が最も基本的なニーズを満たす人々からお金を稼ぐことができるように意図的に不足を設計しました。正しいことをするのは正しいことのようです。私たちはお金を稼ぐことができます。消費主義とそれは必ずしも国の階級の分裂を解決するわけではなく、なぜそんなに多くの人々がユビに夢中になっているのか本当に理解できませんでしたそして私はちょうど私のノートを見つけた21世紀のこの階級政策の問題でそれについて話していましたなぜなら、私のノートブックは完全に空だったので、なぜメモを取らなかったのかと思ったのですが、教授に聞いてみました。これらの人々が一定の賃金で生活し、働いているため、ubiがクラスの分割をより強力に維持できる世界があります。あなたが知っているすべての人々がコンピューターアルゴリズムを実行し、資本を所有し、すべての目的のための生産手段を所有しています。目的彼らは私たちの資源が社会としてどのように使われるかについてすべての経済的決定を下していますええと彼女はあなたがミンスキーという名前の誰かのように聞こえることを知っていると私に言いましたそれで私はミンスキーを読み始めました、そしてそれは私が革命なしでこれらの問題を実際に解決するために私たちの社会がどのように構成されているかについてどのような政策変更を行うことができるかを理解する必要があると言った瞬間を本当に知っていました、そしてそれはそうではありませんでした私がケルトンに出くわすまで、彼女はライアン・グラハムに、通貨制度がどのように設定されているか、そして社会でお金がどのように流れるかを本当に変えるとしたら、それが他のすべてを変えるための鍵となる方法についてインタビューしました。それは本当に私にとっての入り口でした。それは魅力的なユビの議論でしたが、そうではありませんでした。初めて異端のアイデアに触れたのですが、それは私が解決策を理解し始めたように感じた最初の瞬間であり、問題を本当にうまく説明することができただけではありませんでした。または、ミンスキーを読んだり、ケルトンを初めて聴いたりするというマクロ的な意味での瞬間のように知っているので、どこであなたがユビに興味を持っていたように思いましたか？ええと、それはあなたをどこに導いたのですか？私がケルトンを発見したのは、主流のエコノミストだけでなく、主流のメディアや政治的確立の人々が彼らが何をしているのかよりも優れた解決策がそこにあるはずだと最初に知った後しばらくしてからです彼らが解決策についてこれらすべてのアイデアを持っているふりをしていることについて話し直すと、交通渋滞が議会にあるだけで、私たちはできるのです」絶対に真実ではないことをするので、その後、私は研究スペースでランダム化された制御試験を行い、行動経済学者と一緒にラボで働くポリシーの影響を評価しようとしました。これは非常にランダムですが、これらのポリシーの多くは解決策は、何かをテストし、人々が自分の経済的生活のためにより良い決定を下すようにインセンティブを与えることを意味する必要があります。そのため、大学への道と呼ばれるこのポリシーがありました。言葉で遊ぶが、何らかの意味で効果的なポリシーではない彼らは、テストのスコアに基づいて最高の成績を収めた高校生を選び、この大学の準備プログラムに正しく入れました。座った準備のように完了すると、ギフトカードとそれがインセンティブであり、それが私たちのやり方ですこれらの子供たちを低所得の家族の大学に通わせるつもりです。大学の準備をする意欲がないことが、低所得の子供たちが大学に行くことへの障壁であり、本当にたくさんのお金があると本当に思っているようなものです。この研究に参加することiiは、私たちの経済システムがどのように設定されたか、そして変化をもたらし、議会やこのように言う力は、あなたがそれをすべきであるxyとzのことをすることが証明されていますが、実際に起こる必要があるのは私たちです私たちの社会における資源の分配、資源の使用方法、経済的決定の方法を変えなければなりません。そして、誰もその目的に向かって取り組んでいないことを本当に見て、私はそれについて非常に情熱的で、常にそれとディレクターについて話していました。私の大学院のプログラムは、ブラウンでこのテッドカンファレンスが開催されるので、それについて話すために申請する必要があります。彼らが私をステージに上げて、私たちの経済システムがいかにひどいのかについて話すことはできないようでした。この新しくてより良いものがあり、人々は社会主義について話します、そして彼らはその言葉が何を意味するのか理解していません、そしてそれで私はそれが私が本当に話したい唯一のことであり、彼らはそうだったのでそれを売り込みましたそして私はショックを受けました私は彼らのようでした」私を通り抜けさせるつもりはありませんが、おそらく彼らはあなたが私を紹介したこの人を知っていることを光栄に思っていますが、彼らはそう言ってしまいました。経済システムがどのように設定されているかを何年にもわたって評価したのと同じように、多くの研究がその話をまとめました。それは悪い考えです。民主的に選出された社会主義指導者が就任したとしても、社会主義が海外で試みられた場所に介入する米国を好む人がたくさんいるでしょう。真に民主的な経済がどのように見えるかを知ることができ、社会主義という言葉を恐れるように教えられてきました。それを試す前に、もっと多くの人が民主主義の原則を適用できるという考えを理解していればと思います。経済学にとって、私たちが社会で資源がどのように使われるかについて決定を下さないのは公平ではないので、私は本当にそのケースを作りたかったのです。それはアイデアを伝える方法についての多くの研究でしたが、さらにそれは私が発見したときですステファニー・ケルトンとええと、それを完全には理解していませんでしたが、私はこの話で彼女と矛盾することはまだ何も言わないようにしたかったのです。mmtを深く掘り下げる時間はありますが、そのtedトークを行うとすぐに、実際にはすべてmmtでした。その後、バーニーサンダースキャンペーンのキャンバスを作成している間、私の自由な時間はすべてmmtについて読んでいました。次のフェーズの落とし穴落とし穴とiiは、そのテッドトークのタイトルが米国経済の新しい方向性であると信じています。それは間違いなく面白い話でしたそして間違いなく大丈夫のようにしましょうさわやかなアイデアと新しいええとの強調について話しますが、私もまた、分水嶺の瞬間とこれに入るようなものを共有してきました。私たちの経済の歴史なので、その過去は実際にそこにあることがわかります20世紀半ばから20世紀初頭、19世紀には明らかに改善の余地がありますが、経済学を学問として形成するという考えなど、経済政策の実施が非常に多かったので、このダイナミックで非常に重要な人々と学者のために雇用を創出していた産業基盤を作成していたこの介入主義国家がありました。そして、米国だけでなく、基本的に開発経済学の研究を開発するほとんどすべての国を探索することは、実際には、民間部門が特定の種類の活動を遵守して人々に仕事を提供するように調整する特定の国家主導のプログラムの研究です。適切な方法と、特にあなたの観点から、あなたが実際にそして健全な経済的未来のためにこれを行っていることを確認するために、あなたは既存の植民地関係を破壊しているので、あなたが考えるときあなたの種類の脳はどこに行きますかある種の開発経済学のより広い世界とアイデアの歴史、そしてそれらは本当に汚名を着せるべきではありませんええ私はこれのフレーミングが大好きです私はカミラ・ムンバ・クスンゴに学部で多くの時間を費やしました私は思ったことがない私は彼を本当に尊敬していたので、彼と一緒にできる限りのクラスを受講し、開発経済学への植民地時代のアプローチについて多くのことを学びました。支配的な物語と誰と経済がどのように正しくなるかについての研究が、非常に複雑なシステムを通じて人々が物質的なニーズを満たすのをどのように支援するかについての研究が言ったように、実際にそれが何であるかについての規律を評価する代わりに、今権力を握っていますが、必要なシステムはもちろん、あなたは世界銀行のような歴史を持っており、国際通貨基金や外国の実体がドルを金と交換できることを知っている限り、米国が金の基準を撤廃するとすぐに国を債務に陥らせるこれらの略奪的融資の影響力がありますあなたはこれらのドルをすべて印刷してこれらの国に送ったので、彼らは借金を抱えていました。開発モデルは、帝国の国がそのようである必要はないことを知っているあなたが使用できる生の商品を作成するためのものでした。開発経済学はしませんIMFと世界銀行が設計したものである必要があります。今では、世界銀行の非常に進歩的なリーダーがいて、その開発モデルから離れて、人々がいる社会をどのように作るかを知っていることを本当に気にかけています。彼らのニーズを満たし、繁栄し、それはとてもエキサイティングなトピックだと思います。私が本当に会話を始めるのが好きな場所のように、mmtの基盤が好きになります。これは、あなたが言ったように起業家の状態から切り離されているのではなく、バージニア湾です。コロニーええと、ランドール・レイはこれについてたくさん話しますが、彼はそれについてもっとよく話しますが、私は植民地を始めたいと思っている州に行く人々がいることを知っている今、逆流を与えるでしょうが、彼らは物事を実行しなければなりませんでした自分たちを安全に保つためのものであり、植民地が成功するように社会が崩壊しないように人々をさまざまな方法で働かせる必要がありました。彼らは、私たちが財産や商業などにxパーセントの税率を設定し、x量のバージニアノートを作成し、人々がしなければならないノートを発行するつもりだと言っていました私たちには彼らに税金を課す権限があるので、それらを使用してください。私たちはあなたに課税するので、今この通貨の需要があります。ここに住みたいのなら、それを手に入れる方法を見つけなければなりません。つまり、成長しなければならない仕事を手に入れなければなりません。あなたが子供たちに教えなければならない食べ物年末に私たちの社会が機能するために必要なすべてのことをしなければなりませんでした。物事は順調に進んでいました。農場があり、学校があり、ゴミを集めていました。通貨について考えるとき、これは非常に魅力的です。多くの人がドルを本質的な価値があると考えています。さらにドルを作成すると、既存のすべてのドルが切り下げられ、政府が資金を調達するためにドルが必要になることがわかります。通貨発行者がお金の供給を完全に管理することはできません。もちろん、お金の供給がどこにあるかを監視し、新しいお金を知っていることを確認することが重要です。経済への参入は適切な場所に進んでいますが、この話は、彼らが自分の通貨を必要としないことを実際に示しています。人々が出会ったら民主的で、この新しい通貨がどのように経済に参入するのか、どのようなプログラムを実行したいのか、どのような作物を育てたいのか、どのようなインフラストラクチャを作りたいのか、それがより民主的だと言いましたアプローチはそのように見えるので、この場合、政府は通貨の行き先を決定することによって実際にある程度経済を支配していたが、政府は独自の通貨を必要としないことを知っていると私は言います。s mmtを理解するために基本的に理解する必要がある最初のことは、通貨発行者がどこか他の場所でバージニアノートを見つけて、年末にそれらを燃やす必要がないということです。人々は税金を払うためにドルが必要ですが、赤字はまだ課税されていない経済に入ったすべてのドルの記録にすぎないので便利です。最近ですが、彼らはirsが記録的なコレクションを持っていたので、赤字が少し縮小したことについて話すことができなかったので、人々は、ドルがその価値を失ったと言って、本質的にハイパーインフレで現在のインフレを非難しています。あなたが知っているあまりにも多くの人々が彼らのポケットに新しいお金を持っているなら、人々がそのお金を経済に還元しているなら、特にあなたが使う傾向の高い人々にそれを与えているなら、あなたはその需要の増加を見るでしょう。しかし、私たちは今、ドルをハイパーインフレしているのでしょうか。ドルが国際的に強い取引価値を持っているわけではありません。インフレで見られるのは、特に燃料の価格が上昇しているのを見ると、特定のセクターで価格が上昇していることです。サプライチェーン全体で燃料を使用する必要があるため、生産コストが増加するだけでなく、企業は記録的な利益を上げており、害を及ぼすことはありません。価格を上げることで損失を補うのではなく、それは私たちが値下げの領域に入ったときですが、結局のところ、政府が必要な通貨を作成できることを理解しているゴールドバック通貨がないことを理解していますそして、どこかに行ってそれを見つけたり、経済に集めたりする必要はありません。最初にそれを経済に費やし、そこに置いてから、課税して戻す必要があります。」s通貨の需要を生み出すもの、そしてそのお金は私たちの社会が機能するのを助けるための単なるツールであるということその層は実際にはインフラストラクチャであり、さまざまなレベルについて言いたいことは何でも、それがどこに向かっているのか、人々はそれをどのように使用しているのかということです。銅線が足りないと、電気が適切に行き渡らないようなものです。同じような考え方があります。労働力がないということではないようです。しないそこにある可能性のあるすべてのもののように、実際のリソースを持っていないというスキルを持っている必要があります。問題は、実際には、あなたのような別のアナロジーを使用するようなインフラストラクチャが整っていないことです。すべての町をつなぐ道路がなく、実際に町の間で行われている商取引を増やすことができます。そのため、mmpersにとっては、特定の方向でマネーサプライを実際に拡大する必要はないと言っているようなものです。人々にそのインフラストラクチャを実際に提供する方法ええ、私はこの会話がどこに行くのかが大好きです。経済学にさらされていない場合は奇妙な言い回しになる可能性がありますが、それは実際の生産能力についてたくさん話します。s私たちが経済として生み出すことができる真の価値のあるものを生み出すことができる商品やサービスの量の可能性は本当に何ですか？それはエキサイティングな質問ですが、現在の経済がどのように設定されているかを考えると困難な質問です私たちは資本を持つ人々が私たちの本当の生産的資源をどのように使用しているかをあまり制御できませんので、ツール機械のようなものは天然資源と労働を上陸させます私たちの労働力全体について決定を下している資源を持っている資本を持っている富を持っている人はほとんどいないので、あなたが米国に生まれた場合、もちろん裕福な家族に生まれていない限り、あなたは選択肢があることを知っていますが、どうですかあなたはそれを生き残るためにあなたの労働力を売るつもりです」もしそうでなければ、私は森に出かけて、ベリーを集めて昔ながらの生き方をしていることを知っています。私はこれに参加したくありません。私の労働力を他の誰かに売りたくないのです。しかし、本当にあなたの選択は、生き残るためにあなたの手形を支払うためにあなたの労働が価値があるよりも少ない価値であなたの労働を他の誰かに売らなければならないということです、そしてそれは強制的な構造です、そしてそれでmmの涙は本当に戦っていますこの意味で経済を民主化することなぜなら、あなたが仕事を休んでいるなら、あなたは低賃金で仕事をすることをいとわないからです。私が言ったようにあなたはあなたが生きなければならないあなたの最も基本的なニーズを満たさなければならないのであなたは手形を支払わなければならないので仕事をしていない他の人々と再競争しますそしてそれでこれは本当にmmtに帰着しますそれは不必要であり、それは本当に自由で本当にエキサイティングだと言って、人々を失業させ続ける必要はありません。ですから、政府が直接経済にお金を注入するのではなく、政府によって経済にお金を投入する人々に外注されているこれらの民間銀行があります。すぐにわかりますが、理論は、銀行に設定された金利でお金を与えるというものです。銀行は、ビジネスを開始する人々にそのお金を貸し出します。 10年後に成功することを知っているのは75か何かが失敗するようなものですええとそれはおそらくインフレですが、要点は、金利がかなり高い場合に彼らがビジネスを始めることを知っているということですそれはより高価なので、人々が始めてビジネスに投資することが少なくなるので、仕事の賃金が少なくなるでしょう。s労働市場での競争の激化より多くの人々が失業しているひどいシステムあなたの経済が機能する必要性によって失業者を維持することは言うまでもなく、インフレと経済との間に実証された関係は実際にはありません。データ主導の政策について話すために、これは70年代のほとんど以来、ここに関係があり、それが関係しているというデータの実際のデモンストレーションがなく、石に設定されています。ネオクラシカルな経済学者やケインズ派と今のmmの涙との対比についての大きな議論があり、ケルトンとクルーグマンはこれについて常にワシントンのポストとニューヨークの時代にそれを公言していますが、これは危機であり、これは必要ではなく、彼らはこれは、失業率を一定のレベルに維持するための非加速的なインフレ率であり、これを調整することでインフレ率を約2％に維持することがわかっているという理論で、これは健全であると彼らが考えるものです。まず第一に、私たちの経済を完全雇用の場所に到達させれば、仕事をしたい人は誰でもインフレではない仕事を得ることができるということです。経済におけるより多くのお金より多くの人々が彼らの賃金を費やしているより多くの人々が需要が上がるのに費やすお金を持っているだけでなく、あなたはちょうどgdpを増やし、人々が生産している商品やサービスの量を増やしました。 「基本的な需要と供給を使用して、この関係を説明するだけです。供給が増加し、需要が増加するときに述べたように、あなたはあなたがかなりカーブしていることを知っているので、それを説明するのに十分ではありません。彼らのような新古典主義の論理によってさえ、この方針とこの慣行はうまくやっています。理にかなっているので、mmtrは代わりに、議会は私たちの生産能力を高めるものにお金を使うために投票するべきだと言います。政府が実際に必要なすべてのプログラムに資金を提供するために投票することを決定した場合、法によって連邦準備制度の支出に資金を提供するための議会の投票がそれらのドルを発行しなければならない場合、その口座にそれらをクレジットする必要があります。政府の一部ではないのはばかげて誤解を招く恐れがあります。法律により、議会が制定することを行わなければならないため、風力発電所を建設する権利にグリーンエネルギーインフラストラクチャを構築するためにお金を費やすことができます。持続可能なエネルギー風力タービンは、約10年後には基本的に自己負担となり、化石燃料から離れ、気候変動に最適です。あらゆる種類のプログラムを実行できるため、生産能力が向上します。これにより、非常に安価なエネルギーエネルギーを実現できます。ええと、他のものを生産するために使用されたので、それはウィンウィンのシナリオです。その場合、それがこの種の本当に基本的なロジックであり、推論するとき、mmtと議論するのは本当に難しいです。そのようなことを理解するために必要な数学はそれほど多くありませんが、それはトリッキーになります。なぜなら、人々は、より多くのお金を出すときに、生産能力を使用したり、その生産能力を拡大したりすることはないということをどうやって知っているのかをよく言うからです。経済とそれは非常に簡単ですええと、あなたはインフレの測定値を見ることができますもちろんあなたは文脈を正しく理解する必要があります石油などのすべてがインフレにつながりますが、ドルがすでにフルスピードになっているときに経済に追加のドルを投入しているときに、ドルをハイパーインフレしているときは、心配しなければならないので、それがフルスピードでうまくいっているという指標は何ですか？私たちは実際に生産的なリソースを使用できますか？私たちはすでに完全雇用になっていますか？すでにどこかで働いている従業員が実際の生産能力を使い始めることができることを知っていることを利用すれば、新しい機械の作成や新しいツールの使用や海外のどこかからのコンピューターの購入にいくらかのお金を投じれば、より効果的になる可能性があります。私たちは、生産能力を高めるために購入できるものが他にないようなものに新しいドルが行き渡らない段階にあります。それから私たちは全速力であり、最良の指標はそれであるため完全雇用です。誰が失業しているのかを知っている日は明らかですが、それは社会としてのデータを収集しますが、それはおおよそのことですが、完全雇用に達すると、追加のお金を使っても新しい生産能力を使用することはできません。インフレそうですそしてそれはmmtについても最も新鮮なことですラリーサマーズのような悪い悪い男が悪い悪い男を説明するかもしれないことをあなたが知っているものの似顔絵ではありませんええええとあなたは彼らが生きていないことを知っています実際には、またはそれはあなたがこれらの素晴らしい抽象化を知っているすべてのようであり、何とか何とか何とかそれは実際にはまったく反対ではないようですそれはmmtsが実際に彼らが実際に生きているということです紙の貸借対照表のように、好きなだけ書くことができるのではなく、実際に何を言っているのか、実際に何を言っているのか、資本を見るとき、実際に何をしているのか、不足しているリソースを経済学の基本的な定義にどのように割り当てるかということで、質的、主観的、統治の芸術を取り戻すことができます。または中央の権利と私たちは両方とも私たちがバランスの取れた予算を持っている必要があることに同意しますsは実際に人々が持つべき正しいumの仕事に投資するのに良いセクターが何であるかについて話しますそしてそれはそうですそしてそれは私たちが完全に雇用されているというベースラインがありそしてそれからそれらの仕事が実際に貢献している経済の根底にある価値とそれはあなたがお金の量理論を持ち出し始めるところですそれは一種のそれは悪いことと良いことのために使われることができますそしてそれは人々がこの関係を大丈夫の頭に固定している主な理由ですお金の量の理論お金と速度の積は、価格レベルに経済の実際の商品とサービスを掛けたものに等しい。従来の経済用語のように、理由が理由で速度を一定に保ち、理由が理由で商品とサービスをコメディーで一定に保つので、今ではこの直接的な関係があるため、マネーサプライを事実上増やすたびにインフレが発生します逆もまた同様ですが、実際に代数で遊んでいると、実際にうまくいっているように、マネーサプライの増加が影響を与える可能性があることに気づきます。経済における実際の商品やサービスが実際に何であるかを一定に保つために、マネーサプライを増やすことによって、実際にインフレを下げるという結果が得られます。収縮するためには、高金利が必要であり、失業させて需要を減らし、実際にはすべてを解決する必要があります。マネーサプライを拡大したり、ある種の間接的な方法から信用を拡大したりする必要がある状況にあるかもしれません。プライベートバンキングセクターは、実際の経済ではこの金銭的な意味でより多くのインフラストラクチャが必要であり、この種の偽の資産の世界ではなく、これらの人々の多くが正確に住んでいます。このようなものは非常に公的な方法で私は私のビデオが行く場所のためのインターネットとアルゴリズムのようなものに翻弄されて、それはあなたが学校で学んだ種類の経済学のバックグラウンドを持っている多くの人々に届きます。ビジネスのために働くこと、そして金融に入る人々のために教えられる種類のeconとビジネスに入る人々のためにそれは多くの市場ベースの経済学ですそれはたくさんのモデルですそして私は私の顧問ケンはすべてのモデルが間違っていると言いましたモデルは便利です。これは、経済学を勉強している場合に知っておくべき最も重要なことですが、実際には、これらのモデルをすべて持っているので、現実からかなり離れた世界に住んでいるのは事実です。株式市場で行われている取引の種類について考えても、市場で何が起こっているべきかについてのあなたの考えを持っています私は彼らが実際には生きていないことを意味しますそれはたくさんの先物取引ですそれはたくさんのスワップですこれら彼らが実際の経済で起こっていることとはほとんど関係がないものの実際の価格ではなく、これらの人々に、市場と金融を理解しているので、公的資金を理解し、管理方法を理解していると思い込ませます。経済学のコースで人々がお金のシステムについて話すのをほとんど聞くことのない通貨システムだから、彼らはそれを整理し、islm曲線とこれらのさまざまなモデルのすべてを持っているので彼らが彼らがしていることを説明するために考える人々がいるからです物事がどのように進むべきかについて完全に理解しているので、それは現実的ではありません。したがって、データを理解する能力が非常に向上したため、データでこれらのモデルを実際に示すことができないと言うのがはるかに簡単になりました。間違っていたのかもしれませんが、これらのモデルに疑問を投げかけ、実際に何を知っているのかを振り返るだけでなく、通貨供給やマネーサプライを増やすたびにインフレが大きくなるとあなたが言ったように考えている人々に焦点を当て直してください。これらの人々の中には、私たちが金の基準のようなものを持っていると実際に信じています。彼らは私たちが裏付けのある通貨を持っていると本当に思っています。もちろん、金の供給を増やさない限り、通貨を増やすことはできません。1934年のように、米国の人々が国庫に行くことができず、ここにあるように私のドルが私にいくらかの金を与えて、71の外国ではできなかったとあなたが持っていた金準備法を通過したことをあなたは知っていますそれもそうです、そしてそれはかなり長い間実施されていませんでした私たちはフラットな通貨を持っています私たちはあなたが権威を知っている私たちのドルの価値を与える私たちの経済の実際の生産能力以外に私たちのドルを本質的に裏付けるものは何もありませんアメリカ政府のすべてのことは私たちの通貨価値を与えますが、インフレは単に時間の経過とともに上昇する価格の尺度であり、私たちがニュースで話している最も一般的な数字であり、夏の金融コラムでこれについて話していることを理解しています多くはcpiですええと彼らがしているのは彼らがしている消費者物価指数です温度計を正しく取り、それを経済に注入し、科学的にドルを読むことは、実際にオンラインの人々の間の議論を観察した場合、これは実際には価値がありません。インフレについて話すと、FRBはこれを科学に落とし込んでいるようです。彼らは経済で起こっていることの温度を測っていると言っています。それはそれほど明確ではないので、私が連邦準備制度に報告した場合、私は調査を受けるか、労働統計局のようになります、そして私は私のように言いますmこの価格でxyとzを購入する私は一人です過去1年または過去数か月で値上がりしたものを購入することはできませんでした他の誰かがすべて値上がりしたものを購入する可能性があります彼らが何をしているのかを見ると、彼らは平均的なマーケットバスケットを取っているので、経済のすべてのものを追跡して均等に重み付けしているわけではありませんが、実際に最も人気のあるアイテムを購入する人は何ですか？彼らはそれに応じてそれらに重みを付け、この平均的なマーケットバスケットの商品を持っており、時間の経過に伴う価格の変化を追跡しているので、価格が上昇しているものにお金をかけないでください。あなたのドルはあなたがあなたを知っているよりも価値がありませんあなたがいつも同じ価格で持っているものと同じものを再購入すると、価格が上がるとあなたはあなたのドルでより少なく買うことができるのであなたのドルは価値が下がるのであなたはそれがそのええとほどきれいではないことを知っているとよく言う人々が常にいるでしょうインフレ測定は決して完璧ではないという現実に立ち返らなければなりません。FRBの反応は基本的に金利を少し調整し、それが解決することを願っています。混乱とジェレミー・アルストンは、彼がマーケットウォッチで作業し、ステファニー・ケルトンとポッドキャストを行うこの素晴らしい類似性を持っています。そこにあるサーモスタットs実際には、温度がすぐに上がる暖房システムで起こることがわかっています。より多くの水が沸騰し、パイプを通過するか、家が暖房されるものは何でも、それはシステムですが、私たちが実際にそれを観察したことはありません。インフレ率が下がるのを見ると金利が上がるので、それは科学ではなく、多くの人がそれを科学だと思って、科学をやっていると思っていますが、彼らがしていることは現実から切り離されています。取り去るべき主なことは、mmの涙がファンタジーの世界に住んでいるように人々が言うのをいつも聞くので、彼らは私たちのすべての問題を取り除くためにもっとお金を印刷できると思っています、そしてそれは私たちが言っていることではありません支出の制約が何であるかについて常に非常に明確であり、さらに重要なことにそれはs 1ドルを印刷するたびに価値が下がったり、どこかで価格が上昇したりするのは現実ではありません。ナナカマドの灰色は、新しいお金が経済に参入し、価格設定者が見に来ていない場合、これを非常にうまく表現しています。インフレが発生すると価格が上昇します。インフレが発生するとは思わないので、それはかなりうまくいくことを示しています。彼らが彼らがもう少しお金を使って、彼らが必要とするか、彼らをより快適にするいくつかのより多くのものを手に入れるなら、あなたは誰かがもっとお金を持っているかどうかを知っていますが、彼らがさらに数ドルを手に入れれば、彼らはちょうどそれを節約するかもしれません彼らの生活の質は数ドル追加してもそれほど変わらないが、支出する傾向の高い人々にお金を与えるとしましょう。1万ドルのようにすべての人にお金を与えると、需要が増加し、価格が上昇し、インフレが発生します。 mm層が提案しているのではなく、完全雇用を得るためにお金を使うことを提案しています。そのすべての最もクールな部分は、実際に人々を改善することだと思います。sの生活の質と私は人々があなたがファンタジーの世界に住んでいることを知っている人々を信じる理由は私たちの金融仲間がこの時点で本質的に反証されている理論に固執しているラリーサマーズ新古典派経済学者であると思います最高の学校に行き、彼らは数学を行いました、そして彼らは本当に先進的な人々が彼らを信じているように見えるこれらのモデルを持っていますより多くのお金を物事に費やす必要があります、そしてあなたが給料を支払うために給料を生きているならそれは本当に怖いですほとんど仕事に就けないので、それは」本当に大きな問題である恐怖を利用しているので、私のような誰かがやってくると、この若い女の子とカウボーイの帽子がダニのタックに乗っているようなものです。は恐ろしいので、mmtが構築できる世界と経済の種類は、完全雇用になった場合に企業が従業員のために何をしなければならないかを考え、政府が生計を立てることを保証するものであるという話をすることが重要です今のところ1時間に25を好きになる賃金は、おそらく人々が言っていることだと思いますが、それは間違いなくもはや15ではありません。その上で、私たちは社会として必要であるか、望んでいます。はるかに充実しており、賃金も高いので、市場の民間部門での仕事の質が向上します。そういう世界に住みたいと思いますが、完全雇用を得るためにお金をどのように費やしてこれらに資金を提供するかを説明します。人々が公務員として雇用され、それがインフレを引き起こさないことを説明するプログラムは、私たちの現在の最大のハードルだと思います。経済学の教室でいつも出てくるロビン・クルソー島は完璧ではありませんが、インフレ期なのか不況なのか、それともそれが何であれ、あなたが知っているように言うだけです」このイベントのように、あなたの船が墜落し、主流派が言っていることは、誰もが生き残るために最善のことは、じっとしていると何もしないことですが、mmtersや他の隣接する学校は私たちが持っていないようなものですある種のシステムを作成するために、お金のようなものが長い間そのタイプのシステムのツールであり、薪を手に入れ、パイナップルを手に入れ、避難所を建設し、そしてあなたがそれらの2つのキャンプを見て、生存の可能性が高いのは、あなたのお尻に座って、いけないのが好きだと言うのは新自由主義者だとあなたは言います。実際に実際のリソースの抽出と生産と消費に従事するのが好きですか、それとも実際にそれに従事しているのは人々ですか？マネーサプライとそれはあなたがワーキングクラスやミドルクラスの人であるだけでなく、マネーサプライの増加が何とかして私を攻撃していると言っているのではありません経済全体の商品とサービスなので、今あなたは実際に恩恵を受けています正確に正しいので、多くの人が赤字について考えています。私たちは借金をしているのと同じように、これらすべてのものを使用して集合的にニーズを満たす必要があります。赤字は単にすべての記録です。すでに作成されたドルの中で、ここでの最も良い類似点は、政府の赤字が私たちの黒字であるということですステファニー・ケルトンはこれをたくさん言っています経済は今やうまくいけば、失敗したビジネスに行かずにうまく利用されているか、最終的には税制上の優遇措置を受けている億万長者のポケットにとどまることになります。私たちの余剰権そのお金を返済する必要は決してなく、私たちの借金の多くは資金調達されており、不要な債券になっています。政府の支出x金額で大丈夫な場合は、債券を発行する必要はありません。この金額を売りましょう。この固定金利で債券を購入し、人々は必要のない保証された利子でそれらを購入します。政府は債務に資金を提供することなく資金供給を管理することができます。ああ、なんてことだ、もし私たちがゼロの赤字を抱えていたら、私たちは非常に多くの借金を抱えている。するのは素晴らしいことではないので、実際に彼らを助けるシステムから人々を怖がらせることは大きな問題ですええと、人々は常に貿易とバーターのシステムについて最初に話します正しい私たちは私たちのニーズを満たすために一緒に組織するつもりです正しいあなたは外に出て釣りをする木を手に入れますが、代わりの話はあなたが島で聞いたお金の起源の話であり、クルーソーが釣りをしていて他の誰かが薪を集めていることを知っています、そして彼らは取引する必要がありますがああなんてこった、今は薪は必要ないけど、魚が必要だから、「今すぐ魚をあげよう」と言う代わりに、どうしようか人類学者が見つけた実際に起こったことに近い何かを私に借ります切手で、そして最終的にあなたは彼らが金のような本当の本質的な価値の何かに到達することを知っていますそしてあなたは金との再取引は、お金の本当の起源の話ではありませんが、それがうまくいくと彼らが言う方法は、人々が金を持ち歩くことを心配していることを知っています、代わりにあなたは人々のために金を保持し、彼らに与えるこれらの金細工人を持っています領収書を受け取った後、金細工師に行って金と交換できるため、人々は領収書の取引を開始しました。理論では、これらの金細工人は最終的に銀行家になり、金細工人と一緒に金を保持した理由は、すでに持っていたためです。金庫と金を保管するものですが、彼らはこのサービスを提供していたので銀行になり、誰も同時にすべてのレシートを持ってくることはないことをよく理解しているので、私はしません」実際にこのすべての金をここに保持する必要があります私は実際に持っているよりも多くのレシートを発行することができます歴史と人間の行動を研究した人類学者からお金が来たところ、それは真実ではないことがわかりました。人間のように私たちが書いた最初の記録は借金の記録であり、多くの借金はあなたが人々のグループを助けるとしたら、彼らはあなたに贈り物を与えるでしょう、そしてこれはあなたが私たちを助けてくれたので私たちがあなたに恩恵を受けていることをあなたが知っているシンボルであると言うような贈り物を与えるそして本当にお金の起源は借金にありますそれは常に借金であり、しばしばそれがこの種のものであったということです」私たちが通貨のポイントに到達したとき、常に権威のある人物が通貨を発行します。それは、彼らが力を使って人々に税金を課すことができる通貨を使わせることができるからです。多くの人々がタリースティックについて話します。タリースティックを破ることを知っているええと、これは本質的にあなたが出かける通貨であり、あなたは貿易を知っていて、あなたが望むものにそれを使うことができますが、彼らはあなたが彼らのために働かなければならない通貨を発行します彼らはあなたから税金でそれを集めるつもりです年末に、ほとんどの通貨のほとんどの金銭起源の話は、人々にその通貨を使用させて彼らが彼らのために働き、彼らの労働の価値を引き出すように強制する多くの力を持っている人ですそれは常にこの不平等な力の構造であり、 mmtは、これはめちゃくちゃだと言っています。実際にこのようにする必要はありません。本当に民主的な経済理論は、多くの人にとって欠けていると思います。それは、これまでのところ受け入れられていることであり、経済システムのアイデアは、人々が日常的に考えていることではありません。おそらく彼らは経済システムがひどいので彼らが請求書を支払おうとしているので、彼らは精神的なスペースがあまりないということを乗り越えようとするだけで非常に気が散っています一日の終わりは座って、私たちの経済の本当に悪いところを知っていると思います。そして、人々がその日の終わりになりたいと思っていることではなく、より良い社会に住むためにこれをまとめて修正するにはどうすればよいですか？あなたは、これが民主的なシステムであり、私たちが今やったことの概念を理解するように言った2022年に到達したのは、少し前に触れたとおりです。実際にほとんどのお金を生み出しているのは民間銀行セクターであり、世界の中央銀行は実際にこの反応的な方法で多くの行動をとっています。尻尾が犬を振っているのか、犬が尻尾を振っているのかを知っているので、いくつかの統計のように、97の資金供給は実際には民間銀行の信用拡大のようなものであるため、明らかに巨大な独占があるかどうかを確認しますさまざまな大手銀行による業界の例ええと、たとえば米国の経済全体である程度強い中小銀行が存在する場合でも、2000年には約14,000の銀行から現在は約7000になっていると思います。だから'sこれをさらに統合し、このお金の作成プロセスを非民主化し、誰がそれを取得するかを決定するので、私たちはこのumの世界に行き続けます。そこでは、あなたが知っているかどうかを判断している銀行家が数人います。あなたの家族は、ビジネスにクレジットを提供するお金があれば、それは公正なレベルで賃金を支払うことができます。なぜ私たちはこの基本的な役割を時間と時間を証明したこれらの銀行家に外注することを許可しているのですか？繰り返しになりますが、彼らは責任ある当事者ではないので、なぜこの義務の放棄があったのかという質問に対する答えは、この1980年代の新自由主義革命と一致しているようです。ああ、タイミングも興味深いです。権力の座にある銀行家の存在は、これらすべてのことをロビー活動することの影響だと思います。つまり、私たちの国の創設は支配階級のメンバーだったので、これは彼らがそうするようなものではありません。公立学校で教えたいと思ったことがあるので、人々は物事がどのように機能しているかを本当に知らないので、彼らは彼らに利益をもたらす方法でそれを管理することができます。いつもだから私はそれが米国で私たちが銀行の幹部であり、資本の所有者であり、投資会社の所有者である多くの人々が政府に権力を持ち、政府に行き着くか、そのパートナーは銀行家である人々であるこの時点で、ほとんどの場合、オリガルシーに住んでいます。彼らが議会のメンバーであり、それが利益の対立である大きな問題である場合、もちろんそれらの人々は人々の利益のために統治するつもりはありません彼らは彼らに利益をもたらしそして彼らのポケットを保つこのシステムを維持しようとしています並んでいるので、そのようなシステムをどのように変更するのですか？今日の情報の流れは非常に異なっていると思います。もちろん、人々は実際に何を理解するのに本当に飢えているので、それに行きます」私たちの政府で起こっていることと私たちの経済で何が起こっているのか私たち全員が今この経済で毎日生きなければなりません私たち全員が経済システムで下された決定の結果と一緒に暮らさなければならないので、ほとんどの人がそれを理解しないのはなぜですか？公教育だけでなく、企業広告によって資金提供されている主流のメディアも、もちろん私たちの金融システムがどのように機能するかについてプログラミングを実行するつもりはありません。それ'これを分解すると、私は大学院に行くためにたくさんの借金をし、頑固に興味があったのでこれを理解するので、あなたは排他的な知識を知っていますが、それは銀行家と彼らが作りたい彼らの貪欲な権利の大きな間違いでもあります学生ローンの利子と資金調達からのお金そしてそれで働くクラスの子供たちは今大学に行き、これらすべてを学び、そしてもちろんあなたの中で育った誰かが不況を知っていて、財政的なええと引き締めと経済的抑圧の影響を感じているのでもちろん、米国では、私は怒って、これがどのように実行されているかを明らかにしたいと思います。インターネットのようなものがあるので、私はできないアルゴリズムで実行されるtiktokのようなアプリがあります。人々がそのビデオを面白くまたは面白いと感じ、それを見る場合、人々がそのビデオを見ることができるパワーまたは既存のプラットフォームを持っている必要があります。だから、誰かがアプリに長く滞在する人々を魅了するコンテンツを作っている場合、彼らはより多くの広告を見ることができますティックトックは再びより多くのお金を稼ぎます資本主義はそれ自身の終焉につながりますあなたが教育を知っているので、私は公立学校で教えるべきものを持っていますが、そうではありません、そして今、人々は物事があまり良くないことを理解しています、そしてそれは本当に私たちがそれを変える方法ですが、私は一部だと思いますこの変更に非常に長い時間がかかった理由の人々がネオリベラリズムに固執しているのを見たことがありますが、それはそれを暴くための情報がそこになかったからです。それについての唯一の情報は、私たちが知っているニュースが支配的な物語を支持することを知っているということです。ですから、人々がそのような宣伝の泡の中に住んでいて、彼らが彼らの基本的なニーズを満たしたいと思うことを恐れ、彼らが彼らのやり方で間違った決定をした場合、別の不況が起こるのではないかと心配しているときあなたが知っている財政および金融政策は彼らがニュースを信じる宣伝を信じるでしょうしかし今そこにこれらの他のすべての物語があるので私はそれが長い間永続的であったとしてもそれがそれである時であることを願っていますコンセンサスベースの変更を信じているので、変更を開始します。少数の人々がこれをすべて理解したと言うべきではないと思います。この人々の派閥のように、ええと、あなたは私たちが暴力を使って人々に私たちの意志を課すつもりだということを知っていますこの情報を広め、より多くの人が参加するようになり、情報の流れのおかげで毎日それに近づいていると思います。そのため、センターの検閲はその変化を危うくするので本当に怖いのですが、私たちは今より良い場所にいるそうそうそうそれは間違いなくティックタックであなたの存在に私たちをもたらし、これらのさまざまな主題についてそこにいる人々を教育するためのこの基盤を実際に作っているので、なぜこの衝動があると思うのかを知っています頑固な新しいものを受け入れる一種の伝統的な学界の冷淡さを知っているだけの問題ですが、なぜあなたはあなたがあなたの人生の何年も書く必要があるソーシャルメディアでそれをすることができないようなものがあると思うのですか？密室で10人が読んだ論文を作成しますが、それは並行して行われるべきではないと言っているわけではありませんが、なぜソーシャルメディアが非常に重要であり、これが普及の目標であると思いますか？そして人気のあるコンセンサスが優先されるべきですええ最初にあなたはそれを知っています」sそれは民主主義です私は大衆民主主義を信じていますそして私は大衆運動を正しく望んでいます私はmmt主導の経済または民主化された経済のこの現実を現実にしたくありません乗船していないので、その目的のために重要です。なぜなら、私はこれを現実のものにしたいので、私たちの生涯で人気のある運動が欲しいので、それを機能させたいのです。誰もがそれを正しく信じていないので、それは崩壊するためのレシピであり、バーニーキャンペーンで働いた後、私はほとんどの人が非常に好奇心が強く、いい人なので信じてます」可能であり、したがって、私が大学院にいたとき、私は本当にあなたが知っていると本当に思っていました。いつか私は博士号を取得して、誰も読まないような論文を書くことになります。それは人気のある運動をもたらす方法ではありませんが、それでも重要ですこれらのシステムを複雑なものとして理解するには、起きている時間のすべてを勉強に費やす必要があります。他の人がそれらを読んで適用できるようにするために、それは人々にとって良い仕事です。それを伝えるのに効果的であるか、彼らはその研究論文を読んで他の人にも使えるようにすることができる人は、学界はまだ役に立ちますが、今のところ、私の役割はアイデアを広めることにあるように感じたので、バーニーキャンペーンのドアをノックすることでした私がそうだった瞬間、ほとんどの人は元気で、状況は変わる可能性があります。なぜなら、ニュースで聞いたものやFacebookページで聞いたものを逆流させた後、誰かと十分長い間話をすると、彼らと政治に同意する正しい人々は彼らの部族を持っている彼らは彼らが信頼している人々を持っている私がテッドトークをすることを考えていたとき私はまだ非常に部族であると信じていました社会主義のように左側で話していると彼らが聞いている典型的な言葉を聞いて、すぐに気を失い、それから何も得られない私は本当に人々に到達したかったので、私は素晴らしいスティーブスロマンであるこの認知神経科学者に会いました、そして彼は本当にしたかった人々の心をどのように変えるのか、そしてなぜ人々は米国の政治的見解に固執しているのかを研究してくださいなぜ私たちは二極化が起こっているのを見るのですか？彼の研究は、人々が知識の呪いと呼んでいるものを持っていることを発見したので、誰かに自転車を引くように頼むと、人々は記憶から自転車を引くでしょう、そしてそれはチェーンが正しく機能しないでしょう」車輪を引くとすぐに接続されます。実際には自転車がどのように機能するのかわかりませんが、自転車のメカニックである他の人を知っているので、自転車を描くことができるという考えがあります。彼らは自転車をたくさん見てきましたし、他の人が自転車を作ったり、自転車がいたるところにあるので、この現象をもっと調べたいと思っていました。彼らは、議会がこの新しい政策提案を持っていると言った人々に興味深い調査を行いました。その効果は、人々が彼らの理解を評価したことをあなたが理解していることをあなたがどれほど自信を持っているかということです、そして彼らはあなたがこの新しい政策会議があることを知っている別の質問をしました議会が他のすべてのものが一定に保たれていることを理解し、他の人々の知識は私たち自身のものであると私たちが仮定するのと同様の方法で多くの研究を通じて結論付けたとき、人々は彼らの理解をはるかに低く評価したことをあなたはそれをどれほどよく理解していると思いますか私たちはお互いに依存しているような集団的で社会的な生き物であり、政治に関して知ることは非常に重要です。なぜなら、誰かがあなたとあなたの部族の知識を脅かす場合、あなたは今、何をしているのかという点でうまく関わっていないからです。私はここで何が起こっているのか理解していますいいえ、私の部族の他の誰かがこのことを言うのを聞いたのですが、彼らはそれを整理し、そこで推論をバックアップする知識を持っていると思います。私はその問題を、自分で決定するのではなく、彼らが言ったように私が支持し、信じているものとして逆流させるつもりです。ほとんどの人は同じような価値観を持っているほとんどの人は非常に論理的であり、ほとんどの人は米国での主流のニュースの宣伝を信じています彼らのニーズが満たされている社会に住むために、人々は米国でもそれを切望しています。彼らは、あなたが知っているように、過去数年間で彼らの生活の質が大幅に低下しているのを見て、変化が可能であり、それはそれです。s最大のことは、ソーシャルメディアでこれらの人々がよく言っているのに、xyとzの人々は正しい人になりたいと思っているのに、彼らが真実だと信じていることや部族のことを聞いたことを言うのが好きだということです。それがすべてだと思いますええと、学ぶことは楽しいことができ、私がこの知識を持っているわけではなく、アイビーリーグに行ったように私があなたよりもよく知っているような方法でそれを行うことができますあなたが他の人に教えるべきである理由のように全く役に立たないのは、あなたがその知識を得るのに十分な理由があるからです。s頭の中で、それは、私たちの社会がどのように運営されるべきかについてのより良いアイデアについてコンセンサスを構築すれば、一緒により良い社会を構築できるからです。人々のような人々は実際にはかなり知的であり、彼らは非常に直感的なレベルのようにそれを取得し、あなたが彼らに来て彼らに話しかけたり、あなたの資格を使って、黙って聞いてくださいなどと言ってください。特に、ある時点で人々が気にしないような結果をまだ提供していないのです。ただの敵意の問題なので、今あなたが私の賃金水準を台無しにしたように感じている人々はあなたが私の雇用を台無しにしたあなたは私の周りの商品やサービスを台無しにしたあなたの新自由主義政策セットのためにこれらすべてのものが台無しになっていますええと、なぜそうしないのですか？明らかに不満を持っている人の多くは、組合の背景のような伝統的な種類の人々、またはこれらのアイデアのいくつかを助長するような種類の人々であるため、私が何を考えているかに関係なく、何らかの方法であなたを罰したいと思います基本的には、コミュニケーションのエガリタリアンな基盤が必要であり、実際にコミュニケーションの努力をする必要があること、したがって、あなたが説明したように戦場に開かれた主要な情報はソーシャルメディアであり、そこにはさまざまな意見があります。なぜなら、良いアイデアを持っている多くの人々も、アイボリータワー症候群のようにこのような影響を受ける可能性があるからです。彼らが他の10人の教授と話すだけで彼らの人生は実際に変化するだろうと彼らが思っているように、過去10年かそこらで私たちが見たものの1つが浮かび上がり、回復している暗号通貨が懐疑的になったので私は非常に気づきます基本的なソーシャルメディアの経済現象が暗号通貨であり、人々が不満を抱き、この行き止まりのイデオロギーに持ち込まれたように、それは新しいものです。どちらかといえば、それは単なる超新自由主義であり、そこに参加して実際にそのような競合するイデオロギーをジャブできることは非常に重要です。それ'本当にみんながいて、暗号のことはある時点でとても面白いです私はそれを理解する前に暗号に投資したようにこれは魅力的なようでしたそしてそれから私はああおっとのようでしたそしてそれが主なものだと思います人々は自分のアイデンティティを本当に所有する必要があると感じており、情報を取り入れてより良い意思決定を行うのではなく、防御のために新しい情報を正しく取得したときに変更しない必要があります。それが社会学者や心理学者のようなものであるかどうかはわかりません整理するが、ええと、新しい情報を取得しようと言って大丈夫だと思うので、私は自分が誰であるかを変える自由のように変えましょう。暗号とそれ」とても悲しいので、多くの人々がドルを管理している人々に不満を抱き、お金の供給を管理している私たちの通貨システムを管理していることに不信感を抱きました。最近の暗号通貨がクラッシュする前に、基本的にここで何が起こっているのか、彼らは彼らが取っているのだと言って、暗号通貨の方法について話すために非常に熱くなったことを覚えていますええと、私は最近の暗号がクラッシュする前に暗号の方法について話すことに非常に熱心になっていたことを覚えていますええと、私は最近の暗号がクラッシュする前に暗号の方法について話すことに非常に熱心になっていたことを覚えていますあなたが知っている人々の利点は、彼らが人々の怒りを利用して怒っている通貨システムに参加したくないことを恐れており、彼らは代替手段を望んでおり、暗号通貨が実際に得られるときではないときに、暗号をドルのこの代替手段と見なしましたフィアット通貨とフィアット通貨の投資からのその価値のすべては、それらの通貨システムがそれらの経済の実際の生産能力とそれらが実際の価値で生み出すものと彼らの政府の権威を知っていることからその価値を得るが、それは終わりの推測ですそれが法定通貨の投資からその価値を得る日しかし、金融規制はなく、fdic保険も暗号通貨または安定したコインをバックアップするための準備もありません、そしてそれはあなたがお金を投資しているならあなたがしないことを意味しますあなたがあなたの請求書を支払うことができるようにあなたが最終的にドルに交換する必要があることを失う必要はありませんあなたの食べ物を買うとそれはクラッシュするか何かがうまくいかずそしてあなたの投資をバックアップする保険はありません非常にボラティリティが高いため、非常に速いペースでお金を失うだけです。ステーブルコインの価値が、通常のボラティリティであっても、その性質のドルと同等の価値を失うことは問題ではありません。これらの人々は何かや人々に投資しています。家を失っているので、結局のところ、政府の失敗です。ナナカマドの穀物とナナカマドの灰色とラシダ・タリブがステーブルコイン法を導入した当時、彼らは暗号通貨を規制していたことを確認する必要がありました。あなたは私たちが知っていると言ったこれは経済の重要な部分を実際に崩壊させ、人々に実際の結果をもたらす可能性があり、恩恵を受けている人々はまだ裕福な人々であるため、ここで規制が必要です。株式市場の恩恵を受けているのは、数百万ドルを投入してたくさんのお金を稼ぎ、すぐに引き出すことができる人々です。結局のところ、あなたのために訴えられているエロンムスクのような人々はドージコインを知っています。正確な訴訟が何であるかはわかりませんが、彼は彼の公共のプラットフォームを使用してドージコインのこのすべての誇大宣伝を取得することによって本質的にピラミッドスキームの一部であると言っているようなものです彼はそれにお金を投資し、それからお金を引き出します彼らがおそらくできるお金を投資した人々」金持ちが引き出したときにたくさんのお金を稼いでいると思っていたので、彼らが持っていた予備のお金を本当に失う余裕はありません。暗号通貨に大量のお金を投資した人々によるこれらの売り切りは、すべての小さな男を傷つけています、そしてこれは一日の終わりにドルのより良い代替手段ですか、それとも本質的に同じことであり、それが傷ついていることに気づきます絶望的な場所からそれに投資している人々私はもうこれをサポートできないようでしたが、最近の暗号通貨のクラッシュが起こる前にそのようなことを言ったとき、人々はそれを本当に受け入れていませんでした人々はまだ暗号通貨を信じたいと思っていましたとても楽しいそれはあなたの電話にあり、そこにあります」sこれらすべての異なる数字は、代替手段があるように公共の金融技術を作る必要があります。公共のフィンテックについてもっと知りたい場合は、ラウル・カリロとナナカマドの灰色も強くお勧めしますが、これについて本当に頻繁に話すラウルは間違いありません金融インフラストラクチャのパブリックバンキングとあなたの電話で発生する可能性のあるパブリックバンキングが必要な場合は、通貨の使用をよりアクセスしやすく、おそらくもう少し楽しくする必要があります。また、人々がそれを嫌わないように民主化する必要があります。ますます悪化する通貨の選択肢になるだけだと私は人々がそうしようとしていると思いますそして私が多くの時間を見てきたことからそれはそれのようです」暗号に関与するすべての人がどういうわけか無差別に邪悪なものか、ソフトウェア側からよく見られるような良いアイデアはないことを知っているわけではありません。多くの人がああのようなフロントエンドのアイデアのように素晴らしいですUXをよりインタラクティブで、よりダイナミックで使いやすく効率的にしましょう。それは素晴らしいようですが、従来の金融システムでできるように、不安定なもののこのバックボーン上に構築していることを知っているようなものです。そのソフトウェアの才能を、実際に物事をより良くするフロントエンドを備えたこれらの公的資金ユーティリティの構築に統合し始めると言っていたように、誰も言うように、そこにイノベーションはあり得ないと言っているかもしれません」これらの分野で進歩することはできませんが、それはちょうどこのように戻ってきていますそれが前提としているのは、この種のものすべての人々のための実際のええとセキュリティネットがあるので、それは私たちが一種のように一言で言えば暗号ですこの部分に入ると、mmtのトップの神話であることがわかったものを調べて、それを暴くので、mmt umのトップ3の神話は何と言いますか？赤字は私たち全員が返済しなければならない借金とお金ですええと、それはあなたが私たちを知っていると言っているオバマの最大のものですあなたの子供が赤字を返済しなければならないという中国の銀行であなたのクレジットカードを取り出すことは外国の債務ではなく、実際、外国の債務が必ずしも悪いことではなく、貿易赤字を実行することは必ずしも悪いことではありません私たちは商品の余剰があるので、貿易赤字がある場合は、現実の経済で何が起こっているのかを考える必要があります。他の国がドルを保持したい外国の債務もあります。それは必ずしも悪いことではありません。また、私たち自身の通貨が不足することは決してありません。私たちが同時に外国の債務をすべての人に現金化させることができます。経済が崩壊しないように、ドルが崩壊しないようにするためにできることがあるので、外国債ではなく実際に国債に関連する債券を誰もが現金化しても、常に新しいドルを印刷することができます誰もが同時にそれらを現金化しても、米国の人々によって開催されます経済が崩壊することはありませんええと、それは起こりません誰もが行き、彼らの債券を現金化しようとする日はありません利子なので、赤字は外国債務ではないことを知っていると思います。これら2つのことは異なる外国債務です。必ずしも悪いことではありません。債務を返済しなければならないので、連邦準備金はボタンを押して必要な口座に入金する可能性があります。私が言ったように、インフレに対する実際の制約と、これの結果として生じる問題は、実際の経済で処理できるものです。マネーサプライの増加は、需要が大幅に増加し、極端な価格上昇が見られる場合にのみ問題となるためです。これは、国債を保有するほとんどの人がとにかく支出する傾向が高くないためです。ええと、2と3、それは1つです。1つは大丈夫です。2と3ええと、税金は不要です。mm層は、税金は不要であると信じています。また、2つのことは同時に真実ではなく、人々が同じ批判をしているのを見るでしょう。 'm 2つ目は税金を使うつもりですが、mm層は税金は必要ないと言う人は、金持ちに課税することを絶対に信じています。かなり平等な資金を供給することが非常に重要です。金持ちに課税する富は、お金がどこにあるかを知るために不平等を減らすために必要なツールです。また、mm層が持つインフレの解決策は、支持者であるすべての人に好ましい解決策ではない税金を増やすことであると人々は言うでしょう。のmmtは、インフレに対する最善の防御策を教えてくれます。これは、財政および金銭の政策を管理しているため、何を評価しているのかを意味します。実体経済で起こって、潜在的なインフレ圧力がどこにあるかを見て、それらを回避し、インフレがすでにある場合、解決策は増税しないことです。ほとんどの人がやりたいことではありません。他にもたくさんのことができます。たとえば、第二次世界大戦中に父が経済顧問として政権に就いていたことを知っている物価安定対策ジェームズ・ガルブレイスは、物価安定政策措置を知っていることを大いに支持しており、今これを行うことを考えている議会の人々がいます。それは非常に良い考えだと思いますが、それははるかに好ましい解決策です。利益を上げている企業は、それでも利益を上げることができるのに価格を上げるべきではありません。s起こるべきことではないので、これはインフレに対する非常に好ましい解決策です。これは、これが私たちの最後のすべてであり、最後の1つは、より多くのドルを印刷することです。それが行われるたびに常にインフレを引き起こしますええと、それはクリーンな関係ではありません私たちはもはやゴールドスタンダードを持っていません支出には他の制約があり、インフレは私たちが人々の手にお金を入れた特定のケースのシナリオでは問題です需要が増加している方法ええと、私たちがすでに実際の生産能力に達していることを知っているという意味で、お金の供給を増やしています。私たちの実際の生産資源はすべて使用されています。インフレとそこにs経済で起こりうるあらゆる種類の事柄は、物価の上昇を引き起こし、インフレを引き起こし、資金供給の増加を指摘することは、単なる厳格な政治であり、人々が働き続けたいので、予算削減を主張する理由にすぎません。私たちがカバーしたように、政府は基本的に、株式の高い投資収益率を持つことに関心を持っている同じ人々によってオリガルヒによって運営されているため、搾取に対して脆弱なクラスです。投資はありますが、おそらく彼らのパートナーはゴールドマンサックスで働いているので、ええ、ええと、とても素晴らしいので、それらはmmcの大きな神話です。現代貨幣理論の知的歴史の簡単な要約と、おそらく現代貨幣理論に情報を与えたプロトムーブメントのようなものを簡単にまとめて、推奨される読書があればそれらを読んでくれる人たちをカバーすることができれば、今は良いでしょう。あなたは人々にもそうする必要がありますそれについて詳しく説明できればそれは素晴らしいことですええ私は人々を見逃したくないのですが私は本当に見栄えの良い人だと思いますこれは私が読んだ最初の人です私があまり読んでいないことをこれらの人々の前に知ったのですが、ウォーレン・モスラーは実際に金融のようなバックグラウンドを持っているこの人であり、あなたはそうではなかったことを知っています」必然的に彼の生涯の学者であり、ステファニー・ケルトンは一種のデバンクmmt uhに着手し、モスラーと一緒に働いて、モスラーの多くの読書をしました。ばかげているこの理論は間違っており、ステファニー・ケルトンがネオリベラルなショーのようになり、代わりにラリー・サマーズのベスティのようになった悪夢の代替宇宙のようなものがあるというプロジェクトの愛を通して、mmtの支持者になった理由はここにありますとても面白いええと、それで」また、デヴィッド・グレーバーはmmtに多大な貢献をしたと思います。彼は最初の数年間、借金と呼ばれる本を書きました。素晴らしい素晴らしい本は、mmtを理解するために不可欠な、お金と通貨の創造の人類学的基盤をカバーしています。それは貿易と物々交換のシステムから生まれたので、間違いなくグレーバーを読んでください。あなたはまた、mmtを説明するのが非常に得意な人々であるrandall raybillmitchellを知っています。経済学では、現代貨幣理論を本当に市民権活動に結びつけ、行進や物々交換のように導いてきたDCの牧師であるデルマンコートのような人々もいます。この本を書いた人も素晴らしいですええと、マリアナマッツカートの仕事を保証するためのケースです。また、ケルトンやパブリナと同じサークルで彼女を読むことをお勧めします。最初の実行ルールでuhaocのポリシーディレクターを務めたuhandres bernalのように、mmtのインフラストラクチャを実際に開発しているような新しい人々がいます。カリロええと、ナナカマドの灰色のネイサン・タンキスええと、あなたは一種の独学でええと、本当に重い打者ですが、より大きな文脈で私が言いたいのは、新古典派経済学を知っているということです。アダム・スミスが大物だと思いますが、ミルトン・フリードマンのような人もいます。リーガンやサッチャーのような公に直面している豚の人物は、恐ろしい政策にそれらの文章を作成するようなものでした。マルクスのような人だけでなく、ケインズのような人もいますええと、これらの人々が間違っていたのは大丈夫です新自由主義は素晴らしいことではありませんが、私たちがインフレを管理し、実際に金利を調整する方法は一種の有用であると私は信じていますが、政府にケインズ派を費やさせることができますもはや役に立たないモデルを守るのに苦労しているので、批判する前に実際にmmtを読んだら、メリットがあると思います。新古典派経済学は進むべき道ではないことを理解してください私たちはおそらく他の何かに移るべきですが、とにかくあなたは次の反復のポスト新古典派思想家のようなケインズ派を持っています新古典派の人々よりも実際に人間の利益のために経済を運営するという点で、マルクス主義者のような異教徒の人々はおそらくケインズ派を一斉に拒絶するでしょう。新古典派経済学のケインズ派の異教徒の人々から学んだことはすべて、それを新しいものと非常に適用可能なものに入れているので、それは落ちるだろうと私は言うでしょう、そして私は誰かではありません常に異端的でした私は最初に新古典派の経済学を研究し、それを本当に理解し、それが真実であると信じてから、矛盾があなたに向かって進んでいることに気づき、ケインジアンの考え方を知ってから、異端者がたくさんのマークを完全に読んでmmtに来ました多くのマルクスとアングル、あらゆる種類のミンスキーと本当の異端思想家、そしてmmtに。これらの著者の多くがこの理論を書いていた時代は、私たちが今日住んでいる世界とは非常に異なっていたことを覚えておいてください。私たちが今日住んでいる社会に一致するだけでなく、それを社会学や公共政策と統合する経済理論。これにより、人々がモデルについて話したり、教室で物事について話したりすることを知っているだけでなく、実際にそれができるようになります。現実の世界で実際の変化とより良いシステムをもたらすために適用可能であり、それで私はmmtが学術的思考の歴史に本当に落ち込んでいるのを見るので、それは人々がチェックアウトして深く掘り下げるための素晴らしいシラバスですだから、これはこれらの神話を解体し、mmtが何であるか、そしてそれがどれほど有用であるかを正確に説明するという本当にやりがいのある会話だったと思います。共有したいええ間違いなくティックトックに注目してください私はすぐにYouTubeチャンネルを立ち上げるつもりです私も物事を書き始める必要がありますが、ティックトックと私のツイッターをフォローすればそれを見つけることができますジェシカ・バーバンクを検索するだけで、それが表示されるはずです。若いトルコ人のmは、econや世界、政治について考える私のアプローチの多くを現在のイベントに定期的に結び付けています。それはとても楽しいので、若いトルコ人に注目してください。ジェシカに来てくれてありがとう、これはとても楽しかったです。本当にありがとうございました[音楽]
some current day issues uh and just seeing where that leads us so
jessica can you please give a short bio intro about yourself hi everyone happy to be on this has been in the works for a while and i'm glad we're finally doing it uh yeah so my background is just growing up uh in the recession in the united states being pretty critical of what's going on in the country not really understanding why exactly we can't have nice things but really believing a lot of the myths that were told of you know someone somewhere has run the numbers and that's why we can't have nice things uh and growing up in a household where no one has a college degree what you hear on the news you pretty much just accept us as what's going on there's not really an alternate perspective and my parents are critical thinkers but a lot of this stuff you don't really learn economics or anything of the sort in public school in the united states although i think we should and it wasn't really until undergrad that i was exposed to a lot of these perspectives i ended up going to trade school because that was the surest bet at financial security it didn't look like i was going to get to go to college got really lucky went to a really small school studied under you know some heterodox professors that really shaped my brain kent clickguard who's an environmental economist was a big mentor to me as was to kumbi lumumba kasango who's more in the social sciences and so learning under them was huge uh ended up finishing and trying to go into law thought that was the the place to go to change some things uh and found that that really wasn't for me and there really wasn't much to do so i went to grad school i thought that would be the way to do fun and interesting things uh after doing a lot of econ in undergrad studying a lot of political science and international studies i figured public policy was the best route for me ended up doing data-driven public policy and thinking a lot about the monetary system but it's understudied how fiscal policy and monetary policy can be different wasn't as much of a conversation as it should have been in the econ departments and in graduate school and so i do a lot of that now but after grad school i worked for the bernie sanders campaign where i you know figured out the works of stephanie kelton because she was his economic advisor in the budget committee and then from there just studied that a ton ended up doing more data work for organizing and just doing tick tock on the side and really keeping up with a lot of what i studied in grad school on tick tock uh great use for my grad degree but that's been really fun um and i've just been really lucky to be able to explore these ideas now now i do work with the young turks covering stories everything but a lot of econ as well cool cool so that's uh that's an interesting origin story so i think with a lot of uh a lot of these ideas um where sort of you know you're kind of coming in from from different sides into the mainstream rather than sort of sitting within the mainstream uh there's these watershed moments where um it's like ooh like you know i i was sort of curious about this thing and then this opened a whole new world so um if you could what was really the watershed moment for you like what policy issue or what economic theory that you sort of explored that really opened up a new way of looking at economics that's super interesting there was a moment in graduate school where we were learning about ubi and to many people this really seems like the one thing that will fix you know capitalism right everyone has an income everyone can meet their most basic needs which many people agree should be guaranteed because for so many years throughout history human beings became the dominant species on the planet because they work together to meet their needs collectively this is something adam smith talked about a lot and we've kind of gotten away from that and it's a huge problem right we've intentionally designed scarcity so that people can make money off of people meeting their most basic needs and it seems like the right thing to do right we can create money we should give everyone income so they can meet their needs this will not solve the problems of consumerism and it also will not necessarily solve class divisions in the country and i really just didn't understand why so many people were obsessed with ubi and we were talking about it in this class policy problems of the 21st century which i just found my notebook for and my notebook was completely empty i was like why didn't i take any notes but i asked the professor i said you know isn't there a world where ubi can maintain class divisions more intensely because you have these people living and working for a set wage and you have all of the people who you know run computer algorithms they own capital they own the means of production for all intents and purposes they're making all of the economic decisions for how our resources are used as a society uh and and she said to me you know you sound a lot like someone named minsky have you read hyman minsky ever and i was like no i hadn't and so i started reading some minsky and and that was really you know the moment where i said i need to figure out without revolution what policy changes can be made for how our society is structured to actually fix these problems and it wasn't until i came across kelton uh she did an interview with ryan graham about how the monetary system was set up and how if we really change how money flows in society that's really the key to changing everything else um it's it's not going to be ubi but that was really the gateway for me was the ubi debate which is fascinating um and it wasn't the first time i was exposed to heterodox ideas but it was the first moment where i really felt like i started understanding solutions and not just being able to describe the problems really well yeah and so then in sort of those uh sort of immediate moments after or you know like moments in a in a macro sense um of reading minsky and and listening to kelton for the first time so where did that take your mind of like you were curious about ubi and now sort of you got these new thinkers under your belt um where did that lead you yeah so where i discovered kelton was was some time after first you know realizing that there's got to be better solutions out there than what mainstream economists but also mainstream media and people in the political establishment what they're talking about they pretend to have all these ideas for solutions and just gridlock is in congress is why we can't do anything which is just absolutely not true um and so after that i started working in the research space doing randomized control trials to try and assess the impacts of of policies working in labs with behavioral economists which is so random but a lot of these policy solutions were pretty much we have to means test something and just incentivize people to make better decisions for their own financial lives and so there was this policy uh program called the road to college it was in rhode island i was at brown so r-h-o-d-e kind of a play on words but in any sense just not an effective policy they took the highest performing high school students based on their test scores and put them in this college readiness program right and if you complete like sat prep you're gonna get a gift card and that's the incentive and that's how we're gonna get these kids to to go to college who are from low-income families and it's like if you really think that not being motivated to do college readiness prep is the barrier to low-income kids going to college and really so much money is going into this research i i was super critical of how our economic system was set up and how so many people who are so intelligent and who have so much power and so many resources to bring change and produce policy research to give to to congress and people in power to say like this is proven to do x y and z thing you should do it but really what needs to happen is we've got to change the distribution of resources in our society and and how resources are used and how economic decisions are made and just really seeing that no one was working towards that ends i was super passionate about it and was always talking about it and the director of my graduate program was like hey there's going to be this ted conference at brown you should apply to talk about it and i was like there's no way they're gonna let me get on stage and talk about how our economic system is awful and like there's this new and better one and people talk about socialism and they don't understand what the word means and so i just pitched it because i was like that's the only thing i would really want to talk about and they were like yeah let's interview you and i was shocked i was like they're not gonna end up letting me get through but maybe they're just honoring that you know this person you know referred me but they ended up saying yeah that this was a good thing a good idea that i should go talk about it and so there's a lot of research that went into putting that talk together because it was just like years of assessing how the economic system is set up what are other things that have been tried what's gone wrong definitely but also uh what went wrong for reasons other than you know it's a bad idea um so a lot of people will point to like the united states intervening wherever socialism has been tried abroad even when like democratically elected socialist leaders come to office why is the united states you know cooing those leaders we really haven't gotten to see what a truly democratic economy looks like and we've been taught to fear this word socialism before we ever we ever get to the point of trying it and so i think if more people understood that idea that democratic principles can be applied to economics that it's not fair that we don't make decisions about how the resources are used in our society and so i really wanted to make that case and that was a lot of research about just how to communicate ideas but moreover it's when i discovered stephanie kelton and uh didn't fully understand it at all but i wanted to make sure that in this talk i didn't say anything that contradicted her yet because i i knew that one day i might agree with her but i didn't have time to deep dive into mmt but as soon as i gave that that ted talk it was actually all mmt after that all of my free time was was reading about mmt while canvassing for the bernie sanders campaign um so really that was what what launched the next phase gotcha gotcha and i i believe the title of that ted talk is a new direction for the u.s economy uh so if anybody you know wants to go check that out please do tedx.com or wherever on youtube um and so yeah so i i thought that was it was definitely an interesting talk and definitely about like okay let's let's talk about refreshing ideas and the emphasis on new um but where i also kind of like have had my share of watershed moments and kind of coming into this and as you say sort of sort of destigmatizing certain uh perspectives um you know when i look at the history of the us economy so the past of it um you actually see that there's a lot more conducive to these new ideas that was going back in you know the mid 20th century the early 20th century the 19th century and sort of obviously room for improvement of course but the ideas of the formation of economics as a discipline and more so the implementation of economic policy very much so there was this entrepreneurial state this interventionist state that was creating an industrial base that was creating jobs for people and scholars for me that are super important in this dynamic are people like kanjun chang and eric s reinhart really going in and exploring not just the united states but basically almost any country that develops the study of development economics is really the study of the specific state-led programs that coordinate the private sector to adhere to specific types of activities to providing jobs for people in adequate ways and to making sure especially from the point of view of you know you're doing this for real and for a healthy economic future that you're breaking down existing colonial relationships so so where does your sort of brain go when you think about the wider world of sort of development economics and the history of the ideas and that they really shouldn't be that stigmatizing yeah i love the framing of this i spent a lot of time in undergrad to camilla mumba kusungo is someone who's big in development economics never thought i'd be learning about that stuff but because i really admired him i took every class i could with him and ended up learning a lot about the colonial approach to development economics which so many people hear the phrase economics or even development economics and they just associate it with the dominant narrative and who's in power right now instead of appreciating the discipline for really what it is which is like you said the study of of how an economy comes to be right how do we help people collectively meet their material needs through very complicated systems but necessary systems um and of course you have the history of like the world bank and the imf with these predatory loans getting countries into debt as soon as the united states removes the gold standard as far as you know international or foreign entities being able to exchange their dollars for gold then you had all of these dollars being printed and sent to these countries so that they're in debt and the development model was pretty much to create raw goods that could be used by you know imperial countries it doesn't have to be like that right development economics doesn't have to be what the imf and world bank designed it to be and now even you have very progressive leaders of the world bank that want to move away from that development model and really just care about you know how do we make a society where people meet their needs and flourish and i think that's such an exciting topic and it really brings me to like the foundation of mmt like where i really like to start the conversation is this is not disconnected from the entrepreneurial state like you mentioned but the the virginia bay colony uh randall ray talks about this a lot he has a much better talk on it but i'll give a regurgitation now where you know you had people going over to the states wanting to to start colonies but they had to make things run things had to to function people had to grow food they had to have schools and and police and all sorts of things to keep themselves safe and they really needed to put people to work in various ways so that society doesn't collapse so that the colony is successful and what they did was they created this thing called virginia notes and the congress that was there met and they said all right we're going to set a tax rate of x percent on on property and commerce and things like that and we're going to create x amount of virginia notes and we're going to issue the notes people will have to use them because we have the authority to levy a tax against them so there's now demand for this currency because we're going to tax you for it so if you want to live here you've got to find a way to get it which means you've got to get a job you've got to grow food you've got to teach the kids you've got to do all the things that are necessary for our society to function at the end of the year things were going well right there were farms there were schools people were collecting the trash people were building infrastructure and they collected their taxes in virginia notes and burned them this is very fascinating when you think about currency a lot of people think of the dollar as having like intrinsic value and if we create more dollars you know all of the dollars that already exist are devalued the government needs dollars in order to fund any spending no any currency issuer has complete control over the money supply and of course it's important to keep an eye on where the money supply is at make sure you know money that's new that's entering the economy is going to the right places but this story really illustrates that they don't need their own currency they're issuing the currency for the purpose of of controlling this society quite frankly of making sure things run now it would be more democratic if people met and and we said how should this new currency enter the economy right what sorts of programs do we want to have happen what sorts of crops do we want to grow what kind of infrastructure do we want to have that's what a more democratic approach will look like that's why i say in this case you know the government really was controlling the economy to a certain degree by making decisions about where the currency goes but the government doesn't need its own currency and that's the the first thing we really need to fundamentally understand to understand mmt is that a currency issuer doesn't have to go and find virginia notes somewhere else they create them they burn them at the end of the year and this analogy is is still very useful because people need dollars to pay their taxes but also the deficit is merely a record of all of the dollars that have entered the economy that haven't yet been taxed back out so everyone right now is talking about how we increase the money supply very recently but they they're failing to talk about that the irs had a record collection and so the deficit shrank a bit and so people are blaming current inflation on essentially hyperinflation saying that the dollar has lost its value uh no of course the government if they print too much money can cause inflation because if too many people you know have new money in their pockets you're going to see that increased demand right if people are spending that money back into the economy especially if you're giving it to people with a high propensity to spend but are we hyperinflating the dollar right now no absolutely not the dollar still has a strong trading value internationally and what we see with inflation is you know prices have gone up in certain sectors especially when we see the price of fuel go up we're going to see that reflected everywhere else because all the way along the supply chain you're going to need to use fuel it just increases production costs but also we're seeing that corporations have record profits right they're not hurting they're not making up for losses by increasing prices and so that's when we get into the territory of price gouging but at the end of the day understanding that we don't have a gold back currency understanding that the government can create the currency that it needs to and it doesn't have to go and find it somewhere or collect it out into the economy it needs to spend it first into the economy and put it out there and then tax it back out and that's what creates demand for the currency and also that that money is just a tool uh to help our society function yeah the fundamentals yeah and that's that's where we found such of a clever insight of of the mmt world is that you look at money from one layer of that it's actually infrastructure it's like whatever you want to say about the various levels and and where it's going and how people are using it what's the circulation there's a fundamental reality that money is like a like a copper wire for electricity to go over and it's like if you do not have enough copper wire you're you're just not going to have a proper dissemination of electricity so like that's there's a similar concept here it's like it's not the fact that you don't have the labor the labor doesn't have the skills that you don't have the real resources you know whatever it might be it's like all those things that can be there and the issue is actually that you don't have the infrastructure in place too like using another analogy like you don't have the roads to connect all the towns to actually increase the commerce that is going on between them so that's where it's like for the mmpers it's like they're saying no you actually need to at times expand the monetary supply in certain directed ways to actually provide that infrastructure for people precisely yeah i love where this conversation is going um i talk a lot about real productive capacity which you know if you're not exposed to economics can be a weird phrase but it's really just what is the potential for the amount of things the goods and services we can produce the things of real value we can create as an economy and that's an exciting question but a daunting one if you consider how our current economy is set up and we don't have much control over how people with capital are using you know our real productive resources so things like tools machinery uh land natural resources and labor especially they get to decide where labor is directed that is not a democratic principle when you have a few people who have wealth who have capital who have resources they are making decisions about our entire labor force so if you're born into the united states you know you have a choice unless you're born into a wealthy family of course but how are you going to sell your labor labor to survive it's not a an if it's not a maybe i'll go out in the woods and you know collect berries and live the old-fashioned way i don't want to partake in this i don't want to sell my labor to someone else but really your choice is is precisely that you've got to sell your labor to someone else at a value that's less than your labor is worth in order to to pay your bills to survive and that's a coercive structure and so mm tears really are fighting to democratize the economy in in this sense uh because uh the way the economy is currently designed a lot of people will say it's the industrial reserve army as marx talked about it but this necessary pool of people who are unemployed so that there's a great demand for labor because if you're out of work you're more willing to take a job for low wages uh if you're competing with other people who are also out of work because like i said you've got to meet your most basic needs you've got to live you've got to pay the bills and so all of this really comes down to mmt are saying that's unnecessary and that's really freeing and really exciting it's unnecessary to keep people unemployed and right now we hear the fed talking a lot about why they're raising interest rates and their working theory for how they're managing the money supply is quite insane so there's these private banks that they've been outsourced to be the people who put money into the economy by the government instead of the government directly injecting money into the economy which i'll get to in a second but the the theory is that you give the the banks money at a set interest rate um the banks will loan out that money to people who will start businesses hopefully successful ones usually not right we see the rate of businesses you know being successful after 10 years it's like 75 or something of them fail uh that's probably inflationary but uh not the main point the point is that you know they're going to start businesses if the interest rate is quite high less people will want to loan money because that's more expensive less people will start and invest in businesses there will be less jobs wages will you know go back down because there's more competition in the labor market more people are unemployed terrible system to keep people unemployed by necessity for your economy to function not to mention there actually hasn't been a demonstrated relationship between inflation and the economy and interest rates being adjusted so if you want to talk about data-driven policy this has been set in stone since pretty much the 70s with no real demonstration in the data that there's a relationship here and that's a huge debate among you know neoclassical economists and keynesians versus mm tears right now and kelton and krugman duke it out in the washington post and the new york times all the time about this but this is this is a crisis this is not necessary and they call this the non-accelerating inflationary rate of unemployment to keep unemployment at a certain level with the theory that you know adjusting this will resolve inflation keep it at about two percent which is what they consider to be healthy there are so many other things we could be doing first of all if we if we let our economy get to the place of full employment meaning that everyone who wants a job can get a job uh that is not inflationary you are having these people produce more goods and more services so if there's more money in the economy more people are spending their wages more people have money to spend demand's going to go up but also you've just increased gdp you've increased the the amount of goods and services that people are producing and so if you're using basic supply and demand to just describe this relationship uh it's it's not going to to suffice to describe it because as i just stated when supply increases and demand increases you know you're you're pretty much on the curve you're doing fine and so even by their like neoclassical logic this this policy and this practice doesn't make sense and so mmtr say instead uh congress should vote to spend money on things that increase our productive capacity uh or increase you know things of value in a very meaningful way for long-term sustainability so a lot of talk about the green new deal if the government decides to vote to fund a program that's all it really takes is if congress votes to fund any spending the fed by law must issue those dollars must credit them to that account and so people saying that the fed is some private entity that's not a part of the government is ridiculous and misleading because by law they must do what congress legislates and so we could vote to spend money on building green energy infrastructure right building a wind farm this would put people to work this would create long-run sustainable energy wind turbines essentially pay for themselves after about 10 years it moves us away from fossil fuels it's great for climate change and you can run all kinds of programs for this this increases our productive capacity because now we have very inexpensive energy energy that can be used to produce other things uh so it's a win-win scenario in that case it's really hard to argue with mmt when it's this kind of really basic logic and reasoning um and there's not a lot of math involved to understand things like that but it does get tricky because then people say well how do you know uh when putting more money out there isn't going to put productive capacity to use or expand the productive capacity of the economy and that's pretty straightforward uh you could just look at your measure of inflation of course you have to understand the context right is there a supply chain issue somewhere down the line are we you know sanctioning a country that produces a lot of grain or a lot of oil or something all of those things lead to inflation but when we're hyperinflating the dollar when we're putting additional dollars into the economy when it's already at full speed that's when we've got to worry so what are the indicators of it being at full speed well do we have real productive resources to put to use are we already at full employment is everyone who is seeking a job employed actually already do we have computers that maybe we could put to use that you know employees that are already working somewhere could then start using that real productive capacity they could become you know more effective if we throw some dollars behind creating new machinery or putting new tools to use or buying computers from somewhere abroad but if we're at the point where any new dollars will not go to things like that there's nothing else out there that we can buy to increase our productive capacity then we're at full speed and the best indicator really is full employment because it's it's clear as day we know who is unemployed we collect data on that as a society and it's approximate but it's pretty good uh and once we get to full employment we know that spending additional money will not put new productive capacity to use and it will be inflationary yeah and and that's that's what's the most refreshing thing too about mmt that far from being the caricature of what um you know a bad bad man like larry summers might describe a bad bad man yeah um you know that oh well they don't live in reality or it's like it's all you know these great abstractions and blah blah blah it's like no actually it's the complete opposite it's that the mmts are actually living in reality they're actually talking about not just like paper balance sheets that you can just write in any number you want they're saying like what are the actual you know real resources on the ground like when you look at capital when you look at labor what is actually going on like what is actually how do we allocate scarce resources the fundamental definition of economics and so they bring back in the qualitative and the subjective and the art of governing because it's not so much oh well we get in whether we're the center left or the center right and we both agree we have to have balanced budgets and we have to think very sort of binary and and quantitatively when it's like you're saying it's like no no let's let's actually talk about like what would be a good sector to invest in what is the right um jobs for people to have and it's like and there's the baseline which is are we at full employment and then it becomes well are those jobs actually contributing to the underlying value in the economy and that's where you start to bring up the quantity theory of money which is sort of it can be used for bad and for good and it's the main reason why people have this relationship fixed in their head of okay so you have the quantity theory of money money times velocity equals the price level times the real goods and services in the economy um you know py so it's like the traditional economic jargon goes well you hold velocity constant because reasons and then you hold the goods and service in the comedy constant because reasons and so now you have this direct relationship so whenever you increase the money supply de facto you've caused inflation and vice versa but again like you were getting at well actually if you play with the algebra a bit you actually realize increasing the money supply can affect if we don't hold y constant what the real goods and services in the economy are so actually by increasing the money supply there is an outcome here where you actually lower inflation and so far be it from the sort of solutions that are parroted right now of well there needs to be contraction there needs to be high interest rates that we need to cause unemployment to reduce demand that will solve everything no actually there we might be in a situation where we need to expand the money supply or expand credit from sort of an indirect method through the private banking sector there needs to actually be more infrastructure in the economy in this monetary sense in the real economy and not in this sort of fake asset world that so many of these people live in exactly yeah i get so much feedback because i talk about this stuff in a very public way where i'm at the mercy of like the internet and algorithms for where my videos go and it reaches a lot of people who have a background in the kind of economics that you learn in a school that wants you to go get a job afterwards right they want you to work for a business and the kind of econ that is taught for people who go into finance and for people who go into business it's a lot of market-based economics it's a lot of models and i my advisor ken said all models are wrong some models are useful which is probably the most important thing you can know if you're studying economics but it's true that they they are living in a world that's pretty disconnected from reality right you've got all of these models you've got your idea of what should be happening in the market even if you think about the kind of trading that goes on in the stock market i mean they're really not living in reality it's a lot of futures trading it's a lot of swaps these aren't the real prices of things they they really have little to do with what's going on in the real economy and to have these people assume that because they understand markets and they understand finance that they understand public money and they understand how to manage a monetary system you hardly hear people talk about the monetary system in economics courses and so because there are these people that think because they've sorted it out and they've got the islm curve and all of these different models to explain things that they've got a full understanding about how things should go it's just not real and so because our capacity for understanding data is so much better now it's a lot easier to say well we can't actually demonstrate these models in the data so perhaps we've got it wrong perhaps it's time to question these models and go back to what what do we actually know um but also refocus the folks that that do think like you said anytime we increase the monetary supply or the money supply it's going to be inflationary a lot of these people actually still believe we have something like the gold standard they really think that that we have a backed currency i get comments all the time that's like unless we increase the supply of gold of course we can't increase the currency and it's like oh no 1934 you know we passed the gold reserve act you've had people in the united states couldn't go to the treasury and say like here are my dollars give me some gold and then in 71 foreign countries couldn't do it either and so it hasn't been in place for quite some time we've got a fiat currency we don't have anything intrinsically backing our dollars other than the real productive capacity of our economy that gives our dollars value you know the authority of the american government uh all of those things give our currency value but understanding that inflation is simply a measure of price increases over time and that the most common figure we we talk about on the news and you know in financial columns summers talks about this one a lot is cpi uh the consumer price index what they're doing is they're running surveys to households saying what did you buy in at what price it's not like they're taking a thermometer right and injecting it into the economy and scientifically reading the dollar is worth this percent less which really if you observe discourse among people online who talk about inflation it seems like they think the fed has this down to a science uh that they're taking the temperature of what's going on in the economy uh saying you know inflation's at this much so that means we need to do x y and z policies it's not as clear as that so if i report back to the fed say i get surveyed um or like the bureau of labor statistics uh and i say like i'm buying x y and z at you know this price i am one person i could not be buying anything that has gone up in price over the past year or the past few months someone else could be buying things that have all gone up in price and so if you look at what they do is they take an average market basket so it's not like they're tracking every single thing in the economy and weighting it equally but really what are the most people buying what are the items that are the most popular and they weight them accordingly and they have this average market basket of goods and they're tracking the price change over time so let's say you don't spend any money on the things that are going up in price you're not going to experience that your dollar has any less value it has you know you're buying the same things that you always have at the same price and there will always be people who say well you know if prices go up you can buy less with your dollars and so your dollar is devalued it's not as clean as that um and so we really have to go back to this reality of what is inflation measuring this tool is not perfect by any means and the fed's response is is basically we'll adjust uh interest rates a little bit and hope that that resolves it and so it's just such a mess and jeremy alston has this great analogy he works with marketwatch and does a podcast with stephanie kelton he always talks about the fed's trick of adjusting interest rates as adjusting a thermostat to hopefully change the temperature but as we would point out uh when you adjust the thermostat there's actually you know things that happen in your heating system where the temperature will go up right more water will get boiled it'll go through the pipes or whatever your house will get heated that's a system but we haven't actually observed that when we increase interest rates we're going to see inflation go back down and so it's not a science and so many people think it is a science and they think they're doing science but what they're doing is disconnected from reality and that is the main thing to take away and it sucks because you always hear people say like mm tears are living in a fantasy world they think we can just print more money to get rid of all of our problems and that's not what we're saying we've been always very clear about what the constraints are for spending and more importantly it's it's not reality that for every dollar you print every other dollar is is devalued or it's going to lead to price increases somewhere and rowan gray puts this really well where he says if new money enters the economy and price setters aren't around to see it will prices go up will we experience inflation and that demonstrates that that pretty well uh because i i don't think we would see inflation however if we gave everyone dollars uh working class people with a high propensity to spend right that means their quality of life will increase if they're if they spend some more money and get some more things that they would need or would make them more comfortable whereas you know if someone has a lot of money if they get a few more dollars they might just save it right their quality of life might not change that much for a few additional dollars but let's say we we do give money to people with a high propensity to spend we give everyone like ten thousand dollars yeah that's going to lead to an increase in demand and therefore price increases and therefore inflation that's not what mm tiers are proposing uh at all we're proposing that we spend money to get to full employment and i think the coolest part about all of it is it will actually improve people's quality of life and i think the reason people believe the folks who are you know living in the fantasy world right our finance bros are larry summers neoclassical economists that are clinging to theory that's essentially been disproven at this point but they sound really smart and they went to the best schools and they've done the math and they've got these models that look really advanced people believe them because they're telling the public that if we don't do this your life's going to get worse you're going to have to spend more money on things and that's really scary if you're living paycheck to paycheck you're like oh no like i hope this guy fix fixes the economy because i can't afford the price of gas going up i can hardly get to work and so it's really exploiting fear which is a huge problem and so then when someone like me comes along it's like this young girl and the cowboy hat on tick tock and i'm like hey we can print more money they're like no no no no this is terrifying and so it's it's important to tell the story that the kind of of world and economy that mmt can build is one where if we get to full employment think about what corporations will have to do for their employees so if the government guarantees a living wage to like 25 an hour right now uh i would say is probably what people are saying it's definitely no longer 15. and there's full benefits and you're doing work that is meaningful right you're building clean energy infrastructure things we've agreed upon that we need or want as a society that's much more fulfilling and the pay is better so it's going to increase the quality of work in the private sector in markets uh and that's the kind of world we would want to live in but explaining how spending money to get to full employment and funding these programs where people will be employed as public employees and explaining that that won't cause inflation i think is our our biggest hurdle right now because of the fear that's out there yeah yeah and to maybe use uh a well-worn analogy of like the the robin crouseau island that always kind of comes up in economic classrooms um it's not perfect but just to say like you know whether it's like an inflationary period or a recession or whatever it might be that's like this event one where your ship crashes and what the mainstreamers are kind of saying like okay the best thing to do to survive everyone stay still and don't do anything whereas the mmters and other adjacent schools would be more so like no we have to create some sort of like system some rudimentary collective organizing that like money has been a tool of that type of system for a long time to say like okay you guys go get firewood you guys go get pineapples you guys go build the shelter and then you look at those two camps and you say who has the higher likelihood of survival is it the neoliberals who say just sit on your butt and like don't actually like engage in real resource um extraction and production and consumption or is it the people that are actually engaging in that and so like when you look at it like that weighs just simply you start to see yeah there is a feedback loop actually to the money supply and that it's not just like you as a working class or a middle class person saying oh my god all that increase in the money supply is doing is somehow attacking me no it's actually going into the pocketbooks of your neighbor your family and also increasing the overall goods and services in the economy so now you actually are benefiting right yeah yeah it's like exactly correct so a lot of people think about the deficit is we are in debt right like we have to go into debt to put all this stuff to use and collectively meet our needs uh wrong no the deficit is simply a record of of all of the dollars that have already been created and the best analogy here is that the government's red ink is our black ink stephanie kelton says this a lot uh and it's true that they write x amount of dollars go out they create the dollars they're in the economy now hopefully being put to good use not going to a failing business or you know eventually ending up staying in the pockets of billionaires who are getting tax breaks whatever uh in any case that's that's dollars that are in the economy for us to use it's our surplus right we're never going to have to pay that money back and a lot of our debt is financed and and is in bonds which is unnecessary right we don't need to issue bonds where it's like okay the government's spending x amount of money let's sell this amount of bonds at this fixed interest rate and and people buy them up for the guaranteed interest that's not necessary uh the government can simply manage the money supply without financing the debt um and so to have people think about you know this way of organizing the economy is oh my gosh we're in so much debt if we were to have a deficit of zero uh there would be no dollars to erase the deficit uh that would collapse the economy that's not a great thing to do and so to scare people out of a system that would actually help them is a huge problem uh and people always talk about the system of trade and barter initially right are we going to organize all together to meet our needs right you get the the wood you go out and fish whatever but the the alternative the the story the origin story of money that you hear of on the island and you know crusoe's out fishing and someone else is collecting firewood and they need to trade but oh my god no i don't actually need firewood right now but you need fish so what are we gonna do um instead of saying like oh i'll give you the fish now and you'll owe me something which is closer to what actually happened that anthropologists have found uh instead they say they started using uh you know means of exchange like seashells like really pretty seashells as currency and then eventually they you know created currency out of some like pretty clay with stamps and then eventually you know they get to something of real intrinsic value like gold and you're trading with gold um not the real origin story of money but the way they say it plays out is uh then you have uh you know people worried about carrying gold around and instead you have these goldsmiths that would hold gold for people and uh give them a receipt and then people started just trading the receipts because you can go to the goldsmith exchange it for your gold and the theory is that these goldsmiths ended up becoming bankers right and the reason that they kept the gold with the goldsmiths is because they already had safes and things to store the gold but the idea is that because they were offering this service they become the banks and they realize well no one's ever going to bring all of their receipts at the same time and so i don't actually have to keep all this gold here i can issue more receipts than i actually have right and so this theory of like reserves and fractional reserve banking and lending by the banks and that's how we have banks right that's the theory that they they have for where money came from anthropologists who have studied history and human behavior found that that's not true and and the first records uh of of just writing that we have uh from like humans were records of debt and a lot of debt came from like uh kind of like gift giving so like if you were to to help a group of people they would give you a gift and say this is a symbol that you know we're indebted to you because you helped us out and really the origin of money is in debt um it's it's always been debt and oftentimes it's been this sort of thing where it's always authority figures issuing currency when we get to the point of currency um and it's because they they're able to use force to make people use the currency they can levy taxes right a lot of people talk about the tally sticks uh and they you know break the tally stick uh this is essentially the currency you go out and you can you know trade and and use it for whatever you want but they issue the currency you have to work for them they're going to collect it in taxes from you at the end of the year and so most currency most monies origin story is someone with a lot of power forcing people to use that currency so that they do work for them and they extract the value of their labor it's always been this unequal power structure and mmt is saying this is messed up it doesn't have to actually be like this uh and it's really a democratic economic theory which is i think missing for so many people uh just that that that can be a thing it's so far-fetched and the idea of an economic system is just not something people think about on a day-to-day basis probably because they're trying to pay their bills because their economic system is awful and they're very distracted by just trying to get by that they don't have a lot of mental space the last thing people want to do i think at the end of the day is sit down and think you know what's really wrong with our economy and how can we fix this collectively to live in a better society just not what people want to do when they wind down for the day yeah yeah and and like you said like getting at that notion of is this a democratic system and and what we've done now that we've gotten to 2022 is um you touched on it earlier a little bit um that really it's the private banking sector that is actually creating most of the money and that the central banks of the world act actually act a lot of times in this reactionary fashion where you know is the tail wagging the dog or is the dog like wagging the tail and so when you see that like some stats are that 97 of the money supply is actually this like private bank credit expansion so then you look at if there's obvious huge monopolization of the industry by various big banks uh and then even where there are medium to small banks that are sort of strong throughout the economy in the us for instance i believe it's gone from in 2000 of like around 14 000 banks to now it's around 7 000. so there's this further and further consolidation and thus a de-democratizing of this this money creation process and thus the money direction process of who gets it so we we keep going into this um world where there's a few bankers out there that are deciding you know if your family has food on the table if there's money to supply credit for the business that then it can pay wages at a fair level um it's like why why are we allowing this fundamental role to just be outsourced to these bankers which have proven time and time again uh they are not responsible parties so what what would you say is that answer to the question of why has there been this dereliction of duty that you know seems to coincide with this 1980s neoliberal revolution ah yes the timing is interesting as well isn't it um i would say the presence of bankers in positions of power the influence of lobbying all of these things i mean members of congress for since the founding of our nation were members of the ruling class and this of course is not something that they would ever want taught in public schools and so people don't really know about how things are working so they get to manage it in whatever way benefits them right so many people who end up working in government we're bankers with goldman sachs we see it all the time and so i would say it's it's because in the united states we're pretty much living in an oligarchy at this point where a lot of the people that are executives of banks and our owners of capital and our owners of investment firms have power in government and end up in government or their their partners are people who are bankers if they are a member of congress and that's a huge problem that's a conflict of interest of course those people aren't going to govern in the interests of the people they're going to maintain this system that benefits them uh and and keeps their pockets lined and so how do we change a system like that well i think the flow of information is very different today and of course i'm going to go to that because people are actually really hungry to understand what's going on in our government and what the heck is happening in our economy we all have to live in this economy every day right right now it's bankers making decisions about how our resources to use are used what our wages are decisions that impact if we put food on the table we all have to live with the consequences of the decisions that are made with our economic system so why don't most people understand it i would point to yes we've been intentionally left in the dark there's not a lot of public education but also mainstream media that's funded by corporate advertisements isn't going to to run programming on how our monetary system works of course and so because now we have this freedom of information and how it flows you know i can make a tick tock that's that's breaking this down i have this you know exclusive knowledge because i went into a ton of debt to go to graduate school and figure this out because i was stubbornly curious but that's also a big mistake of the bankers and their greed right they want to make money off of student loan interest and financing that and so working class kids now get to go to college and learn all of these things and of course as someone who grew up in you know the recession and feeling the impacts of financial uh tightening and economic oppression in the united states of course i'm going to be angry and want to expose how this is running and i can because we have things like the internet uh apps like tiktok that run on algorithms where i don't have to have a power or an existing platform for people to see that video if they find it interesting or entertaining and they watch it the algorithm is going to reward it because tick tock wants people to stay on the app they want people to keep watching and so if someone's making content that engages people they stay on the app longer they watch more advertisements tick tock makes more money again capitalism leading to its own demise because now people are watching these videos where i'm you know explaining what i what i've learned because of you know the education i have stuff that should be taught in public school but isn't um and now people are figuring out that the things aren't so good right and that's really how we change it but i think a part of the reason this change has taken so long uh and we've really seen people just stick to to neoliberalism for as long as they have is because information to debunk it hasn't been out there really the only information about it has been you know news which we know is just going to uphold the dominant narrative um and so when people are living in that sort of bubble of propaganda and they have the fear of wanting to meet their basic needs and being worried that there's going to be another recession if they make the wrong decisions with how they're they're doing fiscal and monetary policy you know they'll believe the propaganda they'll believe the news but now there's all these other narratives out there so i have hope that even though it's been permanent for so long now is the time where it's going to start changing because i do believe in consensus-based change i don't believe like a few people should say you know we figured this all out uh we're gonna have a revolution because like this faction of people says we should and uh you know we're gonna use violence to impose our will upon the people even if people are making decisions that are not in their self-interest right now i don't think that's the right way to bring about change i think it's got to be spreading this information getting more people on board and i think we're getting closer to that every day thanks to how information flows which is also why center censorship is really scary because it jeopardizes that change uh but i think we're in a better place now yeah yeah and so that brings us to definitely your presence on tick-tock and really making this foundation to educate people on there about these different subjects so you know why do you think there's this impulse i mean it's it's a matter of just sort of you know callousness of sort of traditional academia embracing new things being stubborn but you know why do you think there is sort of like oh you you can't do that on social media you need to spend years of your life writing away behind a closed door and then you'll make a paper that 10 people read and nothing happens um not saying that that stuff shouldn't happen in parallel but like why do you think social media is so important and this in this goal of dissemination and popular consensus should be a priority yeah firstly you know it's it's democratic i believe in popular democracy and i want a popular movement right i don't want to make this reality of an mmt driven economy real or democratized economy real unless it's it's what people want right it's not going to work either if people aren't on board uh and so it's important for that purpose because i want a popular movement in our lifetime because i want to make this real and i also want it to work i don't want there to be some you know secret op that that takes it down and effectively so because people don't believe in it right if everyone's not on board that is a recipe for this thing to collapse and i think after working for the bernie campaign i really realized that that most people are quite curious and are are good people so i believe it's possible and therefore a worthwhile endeavor uh when i was in graduate school i really thought you know maybe one day i would get a phd spend my life writing papers that no one would read that's no way to bring about a popular movement but it's still important work because to understand these systems as complex as they are you need to spend all of your waking hours study studying them and that's good work for people to do so that other people can read them and apply you know what they've learned hopefully they're effective at communicating it or they're someone who can go and read that research paper and and make it usable for everyone else so academia is still useful uh but right now it just kind of felt like my role was in spreading the ideas uh so knocking doors for the bernie campaign was was the moment where i was like yeah most people are good and things can change because if you talk to someone for long enough after they've regurgitated the stuff that they hear on the news and the stuff they hear on their facebook pages with the people who agree on politics with them right people have their tribes they have people that they trust we're still very tribal when i was thinking about giving the ted talk i really wanted to do it in a way that it would reach people and people just wouldn't hear the typical words that they hear you know talked about on the left like socialism and immediately tune out and and not get anything from it i really wanted to reach people so i met with this cognitive neuroscientist who's brilliant steve sloman and he really wanted to study how do we change people's minds uh and why are people so set in their political views in the united states why do we see polarization happening big questions uh but you know cognitive neuroscientists asking them was super interesting to me and he found some interesting answers through his research so he found people have this thing that he calls the knowledge curse so you would ask someone uh draw a bicycle and people would draw a bicycle from memory and it wouldn't be functional right the chain wouldn't be connected to the wheels as soon as they had to draw one they would realize oh i actually have no idea how a bicycle works uh but people have this idea that they they could draw the bicycle um because they know other people who are bike mechanics and they've seen bikes a lot and other people create bikes and bikes are everywhere and so they wanted to explore this phenomenon more and they ran interesting surveys to people where they said uh congress has this new policy proposal they're very confident they understand what its effects will be how confident are you that you understand it people rated their understanding then they asked an another question where you know there's this new policy congress doesn't understand it at all how well do you feel you understand it people rated their understanding much lower when congress understood it all other things held constant and he's concluded through a lot of research in this similar fashion that we assume other people's knowledge is our own because we are such collective and social creatures we depend on each other and that's really important to to know when it comes to politics because if someone threatens the knowledge of you and your tribe you're you're now not engaging in terms of well what do i understand what's going on here no it's i heard someone else in my tribe say this thing i assume that they've sorted it out and they have the knowledge to back up the reasoning there and so i'm going to regurgitate that issue as something that i support and believe in as they've said it rather than making the decision for themselves so if you talk to people long enough which i would often do when canvassing just knocking doors talking to voters you realize that most people have similar values most people are quite logical and most people believe the propaganda of mainstream news in the united states they believe what we've been told they believe the dominant narrative but they're quite capable of critically thinking uh and people want to live in a society where their needs are met people are hungry for it in the united states as well right they see that their quality of life has decreased over the you know past few years significantly and so change is possible and that's that's the biggest thing is that you know even though we have these people on social media saying well i heard x y and z people just like to be right people just like to say things that they believe are true and things that they've heard their tribe say i think that's that's all it is uh and learning can be fun and doing it in a way where it's not like i have this knowledge and like i know better than you because like i went to an ivy league and blah blah blah blah that's like not helpful at all like the reason that you should be teaching other people is because there is a good reason for you to get the knowledge that's in your head in their head and that is because we can build a better society together if we get if we build consensus around better ideas for how our society should run yeah yeah and we spoke a little bit about some of mark white's work and i i think he has a nice um adjacent notion here of that um like the people like people are actually pretty intelligent and they get it from like a very uh gut instinct level and when you try to come to them and like talk down to them and sort of use your credentialing to just say shut up and listen or or whatever and especially you're still not providing results like at a certain point people don't care and now it's just a matter of antagonisms and so now people that are feeling like you screwed over my wage level you screwed over my employment you screwed over um the goods and services that are around me all these things are getting screwed over because of your neoliberal policy set um yeah why why wouldn't i want to punish you in some way regardless of whatever i think because obviously a lot of people that are disaffected are people that would be from traditional sort of like union background or sort of people that would be conducive to some of these ideas um so for fundamentally sort of understanding that there needs to be a um an egalitarian footing of communication and that their needs to actually make the effort of the communication and thus the primary information uh battlefield that has opened up as you described is social media and there needs to be a diversity of opinions on there because what seems to be the case is that a lot of people with with good ideas might also be subject to this like ivory tower syndrome where it's like they think just talking to 10 other professors all their life is actually going to make change meanwhile one of the things that we've seen in the past 10 years or so come up and as a recovering crypto bro turned skeptic i get very aware of it like the fundamental social media economic phenomenon was cryptocurrency and people being disaffected and brought into this dead end ideology that's like oh it's it's it's new it's sort of this is the way out this is the exit ramp and it's not it's it's just more of the same if anything it's just hyper neoliberalism and so being able to get in there and actually jab with those sort of competing ideologies is so vitally important because that's where everyone's going right now and you're just seeding ground if you don't yeah exactly it's really where everyone is and the crypto thing is so interesting at one point i was like oh this is like fascinating like i had invested in crypto before i understood it and then i was like oh whoops um and it's okay i think that's the main thing is people uh feel the need to really own their identity and not change when they get new information right to get defensive rather than take information in and make better decisions and i don't know where that comes from that's something for like a sociologist or psychologist to sort out but uh i think i've grown so much from saying okay like let's get new information let's change like freedom to change who you are as a person i think you know not everyone has that but it's really important to get people out of crypto and it's so sad that so many people became disaffected and distrustful of the people managing the dollar managing the money supply managing our monetary system that sucks that we got to the point where people hated it so much and wanted an alternative that they were willing to to do anything and invest money in things they don't understand uh and i remember getting so much heat for talking about crypto way before the recent crypto crashes basically saying that what what's going on here is they're they're taking advantage of people's you know fears right they don't want to partake in the monetary system they're angry taking advantage of people's anger and they want an alternative and they saw crypto as this alternative to the dollar when it's truly not when cryptocurrency really gets all of its value from the investment of fiat currency and fiat currency gets its value from you know those monetary systems the real productive capacity of those economies and the things they produce of real value and the authority of their governments but it's speculation at the end of the day when it gets its value from investment of fiat currency however there is no financial regulation no fdic insurance no reserves to back up cryptocurrencies or stable coins and that means that if you're investing money that you don't have to lose that you're going to eventually need to exchange to dollars so that you can pay your bills buy your food and then it crashes or something goes wrong and there's no insurance to back up your investments in any way or you're just losing money at a really rapid pace because it's extremely volatile it's not even an issue with like the value of the stable coin losing its uh parity with the dollar things of that nature even if it's just regular volatility these people are investing in something and people are losing their houses uh and so at the end of the day it's a government failure right uh they should have made sure that they were regulating cryptocurrency way back in the day when rowan grain and uh rowan gray and rashida talib introduced the stablecoin act where they said you know we've got to have fdic insurance we've got to have reserves there's got to be regulation here because this could really crash significant parts of the economy and have real consequences for people and the people who are benefiting are still rich people right it's just like the stock market the people who are benefiting are the people who can put in millions of dollars make a bunch of money and then pull out really quickly uh and at the end of the day people like elon musk who are now getting sued for you know dogecoin i'm not sure what the exact lawsuit is but like like saying that he's essentially a part of a pyramid scheme by using his public platform to get all this hype for the dogecoin he invests money in it he makes money from it he pulls out all of the people who invested money they probably can't really afford to lose right the spare money that they had because they thought they were making a bunch of money off of it when rich people pull out that's a significant chunk of the investment that was in dogecoin that's going to tank the currency when we see these sell-offs by people who have invested a ton of money in crypto it's hurting all of the little guys and so is this a better alternative to the dollar at the end of the day or is it essentially the same thing and realizing that it's hurting people uh who are investing in it from a place of desperation i was like i cannot support this anymore but when i said stuff like that before the recent crypto crash happened people weren't really receptive of it people still wanted to believe in crypto right it's so fun it's on your phone and there's all these different figures we've got to make public financial technology a thing so that there is an alternative and if you want to learn more about public fintech highly recommend raul carrillo and rowan gray as well but definitely raul who talks about this really often where we just need financial infrastructure public banking and public banking that can happen on your phone uh we need to make the use of currency more accessible and maybe a little bit more fun uh and also democratize it so that people don't hate it because there's only going to be worse and worse currency alternatives i think people trying yeah and from what i've seen a lot of the time is like it's not like you know every single person that gets involved in crypto like is somehow like indiscriminately evil or something none of their ideas are good like what i often see from the software side is like a lot of people have great like front end ideas like oh let's let's make the ux more interactive and more dynamic more easy to use efficient and it's like like great but it's like you know you're building it on this backbone of something that's unstable like you could you could do that with the traditional finance system you could even like you were saying start start integrating that software talent into building these public money utilities um that have those front ends that actually makes things better and so like no one's saying there can't be innovation there can't be advancement in these fields but it's just getting back to this like well what is it premised on is there an actual uh security net for people all this sort of stuff so so cool so that's so that's crypto in a nutshell um as we kind of get into this part i thought might be fun to do somewhat of a lightning round of kind of going through what you find to be the top myths of mmt and then you debunking them so what would you say are the top three myths of mmt um that the deficit is debt and money we will all have to pay back uh that's the biggest one obama's saying you know the the we're taking out your credit card with the bank of china that your children are going to have to pay off the deficit is not foreign debt and in fact what is foreign debt is not necessarily a bad thing and running trade deficits is not necessarily a bad thing because we have a surplus of goods uh if there is a trade deficit we need to be thinking about what's happening in the real economy also foreign debt other countries want to hold dollars there is a demand for the dollar uh that is not necessarily a bad thing also we will never run out of our own currency we could have everyone cash in their foreign debt at the same time we're not going to collapse the economy if that happens there are things that we can do to ensure that the dollar does not collapse we could always print new dollars even if everyone also cashes in their bonds which is related not foreign held bonds but actually treasury bonds held by people in the united states even if everyone cashes those in at the same time the economy is not going to collapse uh also that's not going to happen there's not going to be one day where everyone goes and tries to cash in their bonds uh with interest so i would say you know the deficit is not foreign debt those two things are different foreign debt's not necessarily a bad thing you will not have uncle sam knocking on your door saying we've got to pay off the debt the federal reserve will likely push a button and credit the necessary accounts and like i said the real constraints on inflation and problems that will be caused as a result of this are things that can be handled in the real economy because increasing the money supply is only a problem if it increases demand so much so that we see extreme price increases which is unlikely to happen because most people who hold government bonds don't have a high propensity to spend anyway yeah yeah um okay so then uh two and three that's one yes one all right two and three uh taxes are unnecessary and mm tiers believe that that taxes are unnecessary also it's it's two things can't be true at once and you'll see people making the same criticism so i'm just gonna use taxes as the second one but people saying that mm tiers don't think taxes are necessary we absolutely believe in taxing the rich it's very important to have a pretty equal money supply right we don't want some people hoarding a bunch of wealth taxing the rich is the tool we have to reduce inequality when it comes to you know where money is and also people will say that the solution to inflation that mm tiers have is to increase taxes that is not the preferred solution everyone who's a proponent of mmt will tell you the best defense uh for inflation is a good offense which means that you're managing fiscal and monetary policy so that you're assessing what's happening in the real economy and seeing where there are potential inflationary pressures and avoiding them and when inflation is already there the solution is not to raise taxes um it's just not what most people would prefer to do there are so many other things you can do for example price stability measures james galbraith whose you know father was in the administration as an economic advisor during world war ii is a huge advocate for you know price stability policy measures and there are some people in congress who are thinking about doing this right now which i think it's a very good idea but that is a much more preferred solution right corporations that are profitable should not be increasing prices when they could still be profitable otherwise on people who are struggling to pay their bills it's pretty simple that's just not something that should happen and so that's a much preferred solution to inflation than you know raising taxes on people no mm tiers are saying like this is our end-all be-all um and the last one is just uh that printing more dollars will always cause inflation every single time it's done uh it's just not a clean relationship we don't have the gold standard anymore there are other constraints on spending and inflation is a problem in specific case scenarios where we've put money into people's hands in a way that's increasing demand uh increasing the money supply in a sense where you know we're already at our real productive capacity has been met all of our real productive resources are in use we're at full employment spending money into the economy then is inflationary and there's all sorts of things that can happen in the economy that can cause prices to go up that cause inflation and pointing at increasing the money supply is just austerity politics it's just a reason for people to advocate for budget cuts because they want to keep the working class vulnerable to exploitation because as we've covered the government is essentially run by oligarchs by the same people who have an interest in having a high return on investment for their stocks they want the corporations and banks to be doing well not only because they've got investments but also because likely their partners are working at goldman sachs yeah yeah um so great so so those are the big myths of mmc debunked um i thought it'd be good now to if you could kind of give a brief summary of the intellectual history of mmt and maybe sort of the proto movements that went informed mmt and then covering sort of those authors that maybe people who go read them if there's any recommended reading you also have for people to do so if you could elaborate on that that'd be great yeah i don't want to miss people but i think someone really good to look at i mean this is the first person i read there are people who came you know before these people that i haven't read much of but warren mosler is this person who has a background in like finance actually and you know wasn't necessarily an academic for all of his life and stephanie kelton set out to kind of debunk mmt uh and and worked with mosler did a lot of reading of mosler ended up you know at his house talking about it she really set out to say like mmt is ridiculous this theory is wrong and here's why ended up becoming a proponent of mmt through that project love that there's like a nightmare alternative universe where stephanie kelton's like a neoliberal show she became like larry summers bestie instead i never want to live in that universe that's so funny uh so that's huge also i would say david graber made substantial contributions to mmt uh he wrote a book called debt the first something years uh great great book really covers the anthropological foundation of money and currency creation which is essential for understanding mmt because we don't believe it came out of a system of trade and barter so definitely read graber there's also you know randall ray bill mitchell who are people who are very good at explaining mmt and doing so in a way that's really accessible even if you don't have a background in economics there's also people like delman coats who is a pastor in dc who does a he connects mmt to really civil rights activism and has led like marches and things um and now we have pavlina chernova uh who's also great who wrote this book uh the case for a job guarantee mariana mazzucato's also really good would recommend reading her uh definitely in the same circles as as kelton and pavlina and we have some newer folks who are like really developing infrastructure for mmt like uh andres bernal who was a policy director for uh aoc during her first run rule carrillo uh rowan gray nathan tankis uh who is you know kind of self-taught uh really heavy hitter but what i would say like in the larger context we had uh you know neoclassical economics a lot of people like think adam smith uh you know then i think adam smith would be the big one but we also have people like milton friedman um and you know public facing pig figures like reagan and thatcher that were really like making those those writings into policy which is terrifying then we have like uh you know heterodox econ where we have people like marx uh but also people like keynes uh which is sort of like okay these people were wrong neoliberalism isn't great but uh i still kind of believe that the the way that we manage inflation and actually adjusting interest rates is kind of useful but we can have government spending the keynesians i think are are having trouble defending models that are no longer useful um and i think would benefit if they actually read mmt before they criticized it that's my i take um i think they would find that they probably agree with it because if they're smart enough to understand that the neoclassical econ is not the way to go we should probably move on to something else but anyway so you have the keynesians which is kind of like the post neoclassical thinkers the next iteration they're better in terms of actually running an economy for human benefit than the neoclassical folks uh the heterodox folks like marxists and such would probably reject the keynesians all together and then i would say mm tiers are kind of this this next step right we've taken everything we've learned from neoclassical econ keynesian the heterodox folks and we're putting it into something new and something that's very applicable so that's where i'd say it would fall and i'm not someone who's always been heterodox right i came to mmt through first studying neoclassical econ and really understanding that and believing that to be true and then realizing the inconsistencies moving more towards you know the keynesian way of thinking then heterodox completely reading a lot of marks uh you know a lot of marx and angles all sorts of minsky and and real heterodox thinkers and then into mmt because keep in mind the times that a lot of these authors were writing this theory were very different from the world we live in today we need to update our econ theory to match the society we live in today but also integrate it with sociology and public policy so that it's not just you know people talking about models and talking about things in the classroom but actually so that it's applicable in the real world to bring about real change and better systems and so that's where i see mmt really falling in in the history of academic thought awesome so that's that is a great syllabus for people to check out and and dive deep into so yeah so i think this has been a really rewarding conversation of sort of deconstructing these myths and and going into exactly what mmt is and how useful it can be um so yeah is there any projects that you want to plug anything that where people can find you you want to share yeah definitely tune in to the tick tock i'm going to be getting up a youtube channel soon i need to start writing things as well but if you follow the tick tock and my twitter you'll be able to to find it just search jessica burbank it should come up uh and then i'm on the young turks regularly tying in how a lot of my approach to thinking about econ and the world and politics into current events and that's a ton of fun so tune in to the young turks the tick tock twitter and i'll be there great great well this has been fun thanks for coming on jessica thank you so much this has been awesome [Music]
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