GND、AOC、ビーバーの話。
戦費調達論、JGPにも言及。
I wasn't planning to introduce Stephanie this afternoon I was going to ask somebody else to do that but I'd like to begin by thanking her very much for coming along and speaking to us could you give her around [Applause] [Music] thank you how much do we love her you know who she is you don't need me to tell you who she is I can go through the various appointments I suppose I will mention one thing which is that she's the visiting harcourt professor at the University of Adelaide and what a great pleasure it is to be able to say that with Jeff who's taken the trouble to come and sit through this entire conference with us what an honor this was having I suppose there are three or four economists have been an inspiration to me down the years and Geoffrey is definitely one of them and Stephanie is definitely another one I just want to tell you one story about Stephanie this week cuz I've been following around a bit and she got here our sound seems like ages ago in some ways now and last Sunday stray off the plane I saw you're just you'll just want to sleep surely now we're off up to Cleveland we got there too late I'm afraid to cut the Koala but she got to Pat a koala those who are Facebook friends of me you will see a photograph at some stage of Stephanie Patrick or or I haven't got around to I'm not very good at photographs I'm afraid but you'll get some kind of photo there might be an odd bit of koala missing or a bit of Stephanie missing perhaps but you'll get something um yeah what did I want to talk about she's done so many things already and and I'm going to be following her around which is great pleasure I mean to get to follow somebody that you admire as much as I admire her around to meetings and to get to chat to her about a variety of things is a dream come true as far as I'm concerned I just wanted to tell you one story we had a long day the other day is I've forgotten what day of the week is it's a long time since I really had any sleep to speak of and we had a long day the other day we did all sorts of things she doing interviews for newspapers you might have seen one or two of them and radio interviews and they're like and Gabby and I were sitting in my office planning this conference and you'll have a chance to thank Gabby again at the end and and Stephanie popped her head in and said are you still working then and and I said yes she said I'm off back to the hotel now so I thought oh that's great she'll go back to the hotel and and have a bit of rest because no one can work hard for so long without resting it's just not possible in that respect from what I hear of Bernie Sanders she's a female Bernie Sanders them and they will matched to to each other um later on I find out she's walked on her way back to her hotel.
and she's happened
to bump into some of the students I'd
missed out this bit we've done during
the day sorry we had a conversation in
front of students on The Bachelor of
economics advanced degree at Adelaide
uni she bumps into some of the students
on the way back you must be exhausted
she buys them four jugs of beer and she
spends the night chatting to them it's
it's that kind of that guy not accusing
of loving a beer but it's that kind of
economist that I'd like you to welcome
and it's a great privilege a great
pleasure to ask you again to welcome a
dear friend as well as a mentor of mine
professor stephanie kelton
to talk to us after
[Music]
Thank You Steven thank you
I'm gonna sit if that's okay just for a
minute and then I'm gonna give energize
I'm gonna bounce around like a kangaroo
I just want to say that's a end of a
three day conference as you know and
you're incredible to look out and see
this many people still here at the end
of the third day that does not normally
happen at least I'm used to attending
Economics conferences and that does not
happen so kudos to you for coming I am
sure that the this is a reflection of
how rewarding the experience has been
thank you again to Steven to Gabi to
Phil and all the other organizers cuz
pulling off a conference like this is
not an easy thing there's so much work
that goes in behind the scenes and so
thank you to all of you who pitched in
and and did anything at all however big
or small to help make this a successful
event.
I thought that we would kick this
off since I'm gonna talk a little bit
about the green New Deal and questions
kept coming up what is the green new
deal what is an I kept saying well it
depends who you ask right well this
video I think perfectly captures the
essence of the vision of the green new
deal as it's been put forward by perhaps
the most identifiable figure in the u.s.
context and I know you've heard about
her because Andres where are you Andres
there he is all the way in the back
Andres talked about congresswoman
Alexandria Castillo Cortes can I call
her AOC thank you that helps AOC put
together with Naomi Klein who's also
involved with this piece a beautiful
artist who does incredible illustrations
and Naomi Klein's partner you know
Naomi's the most recent book is called
on fire right so Naomi's partner wrote
the script and this is a little video
that asks us to imagine the world as it
could be okay so I want to do this first
and then jump in and I'll do the little
Kelton bit that's gonna follow okay all
right can we play the video
ah the bullet train from New York to
DC's it always brings me back to when I
first started making this commute in
2019 I was a freshman in the most
diverse Congress in history up to that
point it was a critical time.
I'll never
forget the children in our community
they were so inspired to see this new
class of politicians who reflected them
navigating the halls of power it's often
said you can't be what you can't see and
for the first time they saw themselves I
think there was something too similar
with a Green Deal we knew that we needed
to save the planet and that we had all
the technology to do it but people were
scared they said it was too big too fast
not practical I think that's because
they just couldn't picture again anyways
I'm getting ahead of myself let's start
with how we got here
1977 New York a senior scientist named
James black made a presentation about
how burning fossil fuels could
eventually lead to global temperatures
rising four or five degrees Fahrenheit
within two years one of the world's
biggest super tankers was outfitted with
a state-of-the-art lab to measure co2 in
the ocean gathering more data about
global warming guess who was doing all
of this research Exxon Mobil the oil and
gas company oh yeah
Exxon knew this whole time as did our
politicians ten years later James Hansen
NASA's top climate scientist told
Congress he was 99% certain that global
warming was happening and caused by
humans
that was 1988 the year before I was even
born
so did Exxon listen to the science
including their own did they change
business models invest in renewables no
the opposite they knew and they doubled
down they and others spent millions
setting up the network of lobby groups
and think tanks to create debt and
denial about climate change it was an
effort designed to attack and dispute
the very kind of
they themselves had been doing and it
worked
politicians went to bat for fossil fuels
and these massive corporations kept
digging and mining drilling and fracking
there was no tomorrow America became the
biggest producer and consumer of oil in
the world fossil fuel companies made
hundreds of billions while the public
paid the lion's share to clean up their
disasters we lost a generation of time
we'll never get back entire species
we'll never get back natural wonders
gone forever and in 2017 Hurricane Maria
destroyed the place where my family was
from for Toledo
it was like a climate bomb it took as
many American lives as 9/11 and in the
next year when I was elected to Congress
the world's leading climate scientists
declared another emergency they told us
that we had 12 years left to cut our
emissions in half or hundreds of
millions of people would be more likely
to face food and water shortages poverty
and death 12 years to change everything
how we got around we fed our songs we
made her stop how we lived and worked
everything the only way to do it was to
transform our economy which we already
knew was broken since the vast majority
of wealth was going to just a small
handful of people and most folks were
falling further and further behind it
was a true turning point.
lots of people gave up they said we were
doomed but some of us remembered as a
nation we've been in peril before the
Great Depression World War two we knew
from our history how to pull together to
overcome impossible odds and on the very
least we owed it to our children to try
the wave began when Democrats took back
the house in 20
team and then the Senate and the White
House in 2020 and launched the decade of
the green New Deal a flurry of
legislation that kicked off our social
and ecological transformation to save
the planet it was the kind of swing for
the fence ambition we needed finally we
were entertaining solutions on the scale
of the crises we faced
without leaving anyone behind that
included Medicare for all the most
popular social program in American
history we also introduced the federal
jobs guarantee a public option including
dignified living wages for works funnily
enough the biggest problem in those
early years was a labor shortage we were
building a national smart grid
retrofitting every building in America
putting trains like this one all across
the country we needed more workers that
group of kids from my neighborhood were
right in the middle of it all especially
this one girl Ileana her first job out
of college was with AmeriCorps climate
restoring wetlands and bayous in coastal
Louisiana most of her friends were in
her Union including some oil workers in
transition they took apart old pipelines
and got to work planting mangroves with
the same salary and benefits of course
when it came to healing the land we had
huge gaps in our knowledge
luckily indigenous communities offered
generational expertise to help guide the
way
uliana got restless tried her hand as a
solar plant engineer for a while but
eventually made her career in raising
the next generation as a part of the
universal child care initiative as it
turns out caring for others is valuable
low-carbon work and we started paying
real money to folks like teachers
domestic workers and home health aides
those were years of math
change and not all of it was good when
hurricane Sheldon hit southern Florida
parts of Miami went underwater for the
last time but as we battled the floods
fires and droughts we knew how lucky we
were to have started acting when we did
and we didn't just change the
infrastructure we changed how we did
things we became a society that was not
only modern and wealthy but dignified
and humane too by committing to
universal rights like health care and
meaningful work for all we stopped being
so scared of the future.
we stopped being
scared of each other and we found our
shared purpose
Ilyana heard the call to and in 2028 she
ran for office in the first cycle of
publicly funded election campaigns and
now she occupies the seat that I once
held I couldn't be more proud of her a
true child of the green New Deal when I
think back to my first term in Congress
writing that old school and track in
2019 all of this was still ahead of us
and the first big step was just closing
our eyes and imagining we can be
whatever we have the courage to see
[Music]
[Applause]
and that's so great it's inspiring
I don't she doesn't say where she ends
up after her seat in Congress is taken
by the young alien but I have my own
ideas absolutely terrific right and it
hits on I think all the right notes so
let me if we can bring up the video on
the other players for their economic and
environmental new book on fire the
burning oh wow
okay so I'm just gonna pick it a piece
of that okay and I'm gonna do it in a
way that connects where I think mmt is
helpful in this conversation so when I
spoke to you last time a couple of days
ago and I said people sometimes say to
me how will you know when you've won
remember what I said yeah when we stop
asking how will we pay are you gonna pay
for it and we start asking how are you
gonna resource it so I'm gonna start off
is this a familiar creature over here do
you have these beavers funny
so how funny is that so I'm using this
little guy that you don't even have but
this little beaver they're all over in
the US right and the guy is lucky right
cuz what a beavers built they build dams
say well this little beaver needs to
build the dam and so the really the big
problem for the beaver is I gotta find
some stuff to build myself a dam and the
reason he's so lucky is because he
doesn't have to worry about how to pay
for it he doesn't have to go to the
river bank get it get it
for a loan and sit down and ask for the
money to finance the construction he
just gets to work building the dam he
fells a tree he breaks it into pieces
and he built himself a safe and secure
environment right that's what he gets to
do so he's the architect he pulls the
permits he's the engineer he's the
construction worker he does it all right
so that is a very good thing and what
Congress what aoc says in the video is
you can't be what you can't see so she
knows that in order to get people behind
this idea of a green new deal to have to
think that it's possible have to be able
to see the world as it could be in spite
of all of the fear and this narrative
that the other side the opposition is
going to build you have to help people
see clearly through the fog that there
is a way to get where we are trying to
go you can't be what you can't see she
says imagine the future as it could be
right a just future it's inclusive it's
an opportunity to deal with other
challenges in equality and so forth you
heard it she says we have to act boldly
when the video came out the scientific
community the IEEE Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change said 12 years
right well two years have essentially
passed and we at least in the US have
another year before we put a new
president into the White House.
and so
best-case scenario we're looking at
maybe 10 years left on the clock okay so
we have 10 years to change everything
and not you know in a single country
can't do it
it has to be a global effort and when I
say we have 10 years to change
everything I mean including how we think
about money and taxes deficits debt
inflation all of that all of that has to
change I believe to get where we
ultimately have to go because the way
that they plan to beat us is a
multi-faceted right they're going to
attack from all angles but one big way
is on the sheer magnitude of the price
tag how are you gonna pay for it right
that's what they're gonna do so when she
says
we knew we had to save the planet and
that and we had the technology to do it
but people were scared they're gonna
play into the fear they said it was too
big and not practical they set up
networks of lobbyists and think tanks to
tell the public again and again this is
impossible this can't happen we can't
afford it they bring in the economists
right to help make the case I debated
this guy not too long ago at Columbia
University his name is Douglas
holtz-eakin he is the former director of
the Congressional Budget Office the
gatekeeper the scorekeeper in Washington
any piece of legislation major
legislation that wants to go through has
to get passed CBO you better get a
permission slip out of the CBO or you
ain't doing nothing he was the
gatekeeper okay he goes on Fox News you
know it well and he's and he says it
would cost 93 trillion dollars to do
this green New Deal 93 trillion dollars
we have economists like Larry Summers
there on the bottom former Treasury
secretary under Bill Clinton former
economic adviser under President Barack
Obama what does he say it's not a
realistic calculus not realistic what
does a guy in the middle say professor
a former professor blogger kind of a big
name sort of on the left it would spend
the u.s. into oblivion well okay guys
from the Heritage Institute a tie up top
saying it would be fiscally catastrophic
the press the press the press every time
a candidate wants to do anything how are
you going to pay for it how are you
gonna pay for it where you gonna get
this ninety three trillion so I keep
saying not only can we not be what we
can't see but we can't have what we
can't afford so somebody better be able
to come in with a compelling narrative
about how to actually deal with the
financing and that is where I think mmt
is useful to people like aoc and others.
and we're working with folks on the hill
to try to help shift that narrative away
from the focus on the budget outcomes in
the financing to what really matters
because this is from the Twitter feed of
the Republican Party this is these are
the
Republicans saying the greenie deal is
unaffordable right just telling people
you can't afford it this is sent US
senator from the state of Iowa a
Republican at ninety three trillion the
green New Deal would cost more than the
entire recorded spending of the United
States that's the Constitution went into
effect you see the public can be told
imagine the scale you can't do this are
you kidding
so here is where I say mmm tea is
helpful because we can deal with the
pay-for question quite easily we
understand the mechanics of government
finance how the budget works how
financing works the purpose of taxes
borrowing the debt we can we can put
these things in a different framework
and make them less scary okay better
understood governments don't budget like
households to pay for this stuff
Congress just has to pass the
legislation and the deal is done the Fed
will clear every payment that is
authorized by Congress the central bank
here will clear any payment authorized
by your government by Parliament what
matters isn't the absolute price tag the
size of the price tag but the economy's
capacity to safely absorb any new
spending that has been authorized so
when she says we've been here before and
she harkens back to the New Deal or
World War two that's exactly what we're
talking about we have been here before
we've managed resources and mobile mass
mobilization and we talked about this a
little bit in the qat that I did on the
first day of this conference and so some
of this is repetition this is what I
said back in 2018 this was me saying the
right way to budget for a green new deal
is the way Keynes approached the
question in his how to pay for the war
national resource planning it wasn't
about where to get the money it was
about how to manage the transition then
to a war economy now to a clean
sustainable economy okay and so I put a
little picture up there this is what
Keynes understood right war planning was
about ensuring sufficient access to
Britain's real resources not its
financial resources not where to get the
money to pay for the war but how to
manage the inflation risk as all that
money got spent right it was about
transforming the economy away from one
oriented around producing for consumers
toward one oriented around producing for
the war effort and like aoc.
Keynes cared
about doing it in a just and fair way he
actually was concerned about that I
mentioned this last time that the US was
paying attention because a question came
up about whether there you could you
know take what Keynes did and apply it
in other countries in other context and
I said sure
the US Treasury was following very
carefully and there were internal memos
this is one of those internal memos
comes from the United States Treasury
you can see a review of the book how to
pay for the war by John Maynard Keynes
the Keynes plan of war finance has
attracted widespread attention
throughout England and would probably be
strongly urged upon the US Treasury if
the US should become involved in the war
the outstanding merits claimed by mr.
Cain's for her his plan are 1 it would
avoid inflation right not it would find
all the money to pay would avoid
inflation and 2 it would place the war
bonds in the hands of the people who
were making the greatest sacrifice in
other words not the financier not the 1%
right in the hands of the people who are
making the greatest sacrifice by
discouraging consumption in the present
and asking people to sacrifice and delay
consumption until after the war they
could hold war bonds that would pay
interest allowing them to have greater
income with which to consume when the
war was over so that's how Keynes was
thinking about this since then two of my
colleagues levy Institute scholars and
mm tea economists went on to write
exactly the paper how to pay for the
green New Deal taking Keynes's model and
applying it to the present day so this
is a nice big beefy piece that's written
by Ava and Randy laying out the question
the answers to the questions you know
how should we go about thinking of this
and so I mentioned this last time that
the US government
went from spending you know like 12% of
total GDP to you know 45 50 percent in a
very short period of time ramped up
massive increase in government spending
the UK inflation UK obviously involved
before the u.s. got into the warm you
can see inflation went up you got
double-digit inflation it isn't as if
you kept inflation at 2% but it was
managed and it wasn't persistent year
after year you got a couple of years of
very high inflation and then it begins
to come down and as Professor Harcourt
brought up in the Q&A period there were
a wage and price controls there people
did things right economists advised and
policymakers understood that there were
other tools available to manage
inflationary pressures and so the u.s.
did these things and we got through this
right we won and we didn't let inflation
get out of control and real resources
were mobilized.
and we can do this again
we've been here as she says so how would
we do this today figure out what the
resources are that you need for this
green new deal how ambitious do you want
to be on what timescale what resources
are going to be necessary to pull this
thing off what do you currently have
available to you and where do you get
the rest that's it right I mean that is
those are the big three questions so
assessing resource needs well it depends
what you're calling a green new deal and
there are a lot of different plans some
more ambitious than others might a lot
of different people have said we could
have a green new deal for about
two-and-a-half percent of GDP others say
no it should be bigger
you know upwards of five or more percent
of GDP figure out how big do you want to
go what do you need and then where
you're gonna find the resources how do
you figure out how much slack there is
in the economy how much extra capacity
is available you look at stuff like this
right you find measures of slack
capacity utilization we used to run oh
sorry I'm going backwards this is the
unemployment rate okay so that's an
indication of slack official measures of
unemployment broader measures for
you six you know how many people are
available to help us do this how much
slack is there in industry right
capacity utilization rates there was a
time when we used to run the economy
capacity of factories and so forth close
to 90% we don't do that anymore now
we're down around 75% normally so there
he is additional capacity unused in
factories that means if you want to you
know place an order for Caterpillar for
a bunch of bulldozers and cranes and you
want to get to work building high-speed
rail or something it's probably some
good capacity available right to ramp up
production and produce more of the
things we need to build clean modes of
transportation
how can you free up capacity well you
heard her say medicare-for-all in our
case we don't have it right and so we
have a system that is built largely
around private health insurance and it's
about 18 percent of u.s. GDP we're going
to 20 percent here in the next couple of
years that's the best guess one in every
five dollars spent in the US economy
spent on health care right that's a lot
of real resources think about the
private health insurance industry right
the giant shiny buildings that you drive
by with all the people inside the bill
collectors the people who process
paperwork who tell you what's covered
and what's not covered and why they're
not going to you know let you approve
this test and that test all those people
go away virtually right that's huge you
take 18% 20% of the US economy and
shrink it down even if you just go to
15% right that's nothing like what the
rest of the world does but even if you
just shave off a few percentage points
you're freeing up enormous real
resources people that can be used to
produce other things right they can be
part of the green new deal so you can
get resources that way wall street
senator sanders has for many years
talked about shrinking the size of Wall
Street the financial industry again
penis just think of them you know who
they are Goldman Sachs City Morgan right
you had a lot of people you downsize
Wall Street you free up a lot of real
resources that can be mobilized for
other uses the military-industrial
complex people say we can cut defense in
order to pay for the green New Deal
well it's not that you need the money
out of the budget it's that you need the
real capacity okay so there's a lot to
be had there criminal justice reform
we've got 2.1 million people locked up
behind bars in the u.s. senator Sanders
says he would like to see that number
reduced by half by the end of his first
term that gives you a million people to
do stuff right so this is what I'm
talking about we talk about real
resources and this is a report that I
co-authored with Randy and pub we know
other mmt economists got full Weiler and
Flavio Dantas we all did this together
this is our sort of path to full
employment where we talk about the role
of a job guarantee in the broader
economy not in the context of a green
new deal but just what kinds of green
jobs caring for community caring for the
planet caring for people what types of
jobs could be performed as part of just
contributing to the creation of a
cleaner more sustainable future so if
you're interested you can take a look at
that bottom line is that you have to
manage inflation risk it's not about
finding dollars to pay for dollar
spending right it's about saying if I do
this additional spending in an economy
that is depressed like the sink on the
Left then I've got a lot of room to
spend safely but as my economy gets
closer and closer to full employment any
additional spending not just government
spending carries a heightened inflation
risk and at some point there are real
capacity constraints so it's just about
figuring out like they did in the 40s
and the 50s how to manage the real
resource use through the transition okay
so in mmt we reject the pay-go idea that
for every dollar you want to put in you
have to rip a dollar out of the economy
fully offset all new spend
that's not a good way to approach the
green new jail or any other government
program we think of taxes not as
financial pay-fors
but as inflation offsets my purpose of
raising the taxes to remove spending
power from someone why because you don't
want them layering on their own demand
on top of the demand that you're placing
on real resources about mitigating
inflation risk choosing the offsets
carefully matters you pick the wrong
offsets the wrong tax you're gonna do
little to offset inflationary pressure
even though maybe it won't add to the
deficit so what we need is more
research-oriented at answering this
question right how much capacity is
there and there are some Italian
economists who published a paper through
inet that I think is did very good work.
three economists trying to get a sense
of the output gap you know how much
slack is there really better measures
because it's not enough to rely on the
unemployment rate as a guide as we've
seen right we can keep pushing the
unemployment rate down without
triggering inflation so we need better
guideposts better what do you call it
dashboard indicators right to help set
off signs that inflationary pressures
might be building in parts of the
economy so one of the studies that I
like very much that was done not too
long ago I think I mentioned says that
in the US economy today there's between
500 and 600 billion dollars of
non-inflationary fiscal space right so
that the US government could increase
the fiscal deficit by something like
five or six hundred billion before
offsets are needed without inflationary
pressure that's a lot of space if you
can get a half a trillion of a green New
Deal annually out of the economy before
you have to start increasing taxes
that's a lot of space but we need more
work like that
okay so if there's this paper said 530
if there's 530 billion available and in
Randy's paper he says you free up
another 200 billion
I'm moving to medicare-for-all freeze up
another 200 billion in fiscal space and
you end fossil fuel subsidies that frees
up another six hundred and fifty billion
well I just found one point three eight
trillion dollars and I'm just warming up
you see so the point is that we can do
this right we just have to ask the right
questions and in asking the right
questions I think it will guide us in
the right direction in terms of how to
carry this stuff out so I'm probably out
of time i'm certainly out of energy Oh
all right I want to say that sometimes
people say well we have to invent new
banks we need an investment bank we need
some kind of a new public investment
bank to finance this endeavor no you
don't you have a public bank it's called
the Fed in our case it's called the
Australian central banking here we have
all the we have the bank we need write
the bank will clear the payments that
have been authorized you don't need to
reinvent the wheel in order to do stuff
the shortest distance between two points
if you're on a plane is a straight line
okay and we ought to take the straight
line route because the time clock is
ticking we have ten years let's not
piddle around innovate trying to have
fights about creating new banks and new
ways to finance this we have everything
we need we need legislation and then the
central bank will clear the payments
okay that's what we need last thing.
and
that I'm all done is this how did this
come up earlier today this piece in The
Guardian did anybody see it did you talk
about it oh well this was I mean correct
me if I'm wrong but this was encouraging
from my vantage point there was no
you'll correct me if I'm wrong believe
it go ahead I read it as encouraging
because there's no conversation in here
about how much it's going to cost no
conversation about the impact on the
deficit or the need to keep budgets in
balance through this process it is
simply a statement from a former prime
minister focused on the urgent need to
address the problem
the scale that it merits and plan plan
plan the word planning I've highlighted
it right everywhere we need a plan we
need to plan and resources we've been
seeing he talks about the real resources
the firefighters that are needed the
real resources and planning planning
plan because if it's not well planned
then you're gonna get potentially
consequences you don't want mostly
inflationary right there gonna be people
are not going to have the jobs through
the transition you're gonna have an
inflation problem in all the rest so
anyway I took that as a good sign thank
you
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[Applause]
do you want me to stay
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all right please sit down Stephanie okay
well now is your chance to ask a few
questions to stephanie kelton and I'll
just give this mic okay and I think
Jeffrey must have the first question yes
thank you very much again for a very
clear and inspiring talk but I just add
one point which goes back to the 1940s
when FC doma pointed out to income ratio
Welch expand
it can approach a liveable with limit
and you can have a deficit every year
whereas you couldn't do that if you fall
for the fallacy of using a static
economy economy that doesn't change as
your basic model and I have always
thought that that was such a sensible
proposition and it's very much to what
modern monetary theory in one post
Keynesian theory has to say thanks Jeff
well I'm gonna address some of that in
the Harcourt lecture but it's a III know
the model and I take your point okay
um now is there any woman who wants to
ask the next question no I'll tell you
what in that case yeah come on ladies
and then the one after that is Alex who
is Gabby's partner and I think since
Gabby doesn't have a question in place
of Gabby Alex can ask the next one oh hi
Stephanie
hi Stephanie okay you just said we can
like in America you plan to free up a
lot of private resources to for to
create room for MA for more government
spending do you say the like like there
must be a lot of reluctance for private
sector to do that and should we trust
the government to give them that much
ability to spend our behalf well look
you're going to have to rely on
organized planning and I don't think
that it's going to be just government
public officials who are involved in
these conversations it wasn't cans
you're gonna have vested increase you
have labor at the table and certainly
hope right you're gonna have
public officials you're gonna have
private industry you're gonna but but in
terms of the example I use with
medicare-for-all they don't want to
volunteer to free up resources to help
us transition to a green new deal
everything the vested interests are
going to be just that vested in their
interests but we've got to get there
right you're gonna free up a lot just in
the transition away from coal okay next
Alex and next woman third from there hi
okay so I've been sitting here trying to
do the maths in my head because people
will kick them back to 93 Treveon it's
the massive number those of us in this
room know it's not real money but in a
sense but it still represents someone's
estimate of what sort of resources need
to go into this so hypothetically if we
spend harvest on raw materials and tools
happy to pay people's wages that's ten
years pay for 50 million Americans I'm
just trying to imagine what it looks
like if one is six Americans stop
whatever they're doing right now and get
to work on the grid New Deal are you
really that scared is it this big no
it's not that big that's the number that
was conjured up by a right-wing opponent
to provide the maximum impact
ninety-three trillion senator Sanders I
mentioned the other day has by far and
away the most ambitious green New Deal
proposal out there it is transformative
it includes a medicare-for-all it
includes a job guarantee it's all of it
and it's sixteen point three trillion
dollars so we're not talking about that
that was just pulled out of you nowhere
and the development of a thank you thank
you you're great really great
Michael Hudson says that 30 to 40
percent of our resources work and
emissions by related to paying interest
which is embedded and everything we do
how are we going to control the SEC
Goldman Sachs's and the Morgan Stanley's
in the cities I thought Corbin had some
good plans what sound has got to say
because I just think it's an enormous
wiggle room apart from the 30 40 percent
that the private banks take we've also
got rentier capitalism and war and waste
I mean really it's just masses of room
for improvement or less work or less
resource use I think it's very positive
if we can get a good government yeah so
I like Michael Hudson and to that point
you know senator Sanders has a plan for
that too and it's called postal banking
so you can have a public option in the
loan industry in the banking industry
and you can do that and deal in in
important ways with this question of
brontë a extracting interest you can
also address the public debt piece of
that because in the MMT framework
it's got full Weiler and Bill Mitchell
and I and others have shown that there's
a way to accomplish the financing
without the issuance of public debt in
other words the bond sale is an ex post
optional piece of this thing so to the
extent that you're trying to manage real
resources maybe you don't want to layer
on an additional payment in the form of
interest to bondholders that then allows
someone to tap additional real resources
at a time when you're trying to curtail
the use of real resources and mobilize
and manage inflation maybe you say
dispensing with bond sales is part of
the plan to manage inflation risk going
forward Thanks I'm Ken Kesey changies so
yeah sorry you're so far away I can
barely recognize you so Ken geez and
then if there is a woman question will
one question and then if we can get the
microphone to the gentleman rider the
back in the corner he said his hand up
for ages so Gentiles first hi Stephanie
I just want to ask you a question about
the job guarantee so how is it different
from a job in the regular public service
or private sector and AMT refers to it
as a macroeconomic stabilizer how does
it act as a inflation anchor why isn't
it inflationary okay so making sure that
I've got all the pieces of the question
how is the job guarantee first you said
different from a private sector job Oh
from other public sector work well so
I'm a public sector worker but I'm not
in the job guarantee and if we
introduced a federal job guarantee I
would remain a public sector worker
who's not in the job guarantee program
but there would be some people who enter
the job guarantee program maybe they
came out of public sector employment
maybe they were working for local
government the state of Kansas and the
governor came along and slashed taxes
decimated the budget by the way I lived
in Kansas and this happened and I got
laid off right so I'm no longer a public
sector employee but I could transition
into public service employment in a
federal job guarantee program maybe I
lose a job in the private sector I'm a
retail worker and my hours get cut and
cut and then pretty soon I don't have
any hours and I'm laid off and I
transition into that so you're gonna
have a mix of public sector workers
displaced public sector workers
displaced private sector workers both of
whom could end up temporarily in the
public service program what was the
other part of the question oh why is it
a better price anchor well I think I I
sorta did this maybe the other day but I
maybe I didn't do a very good job
because right now it's a it's an
automatic stabilizer buffers the
downturn so if you transition in instead
of becoming unemployed.
when the economy
turns down you remain in
through the business cycle which means
you remain employable right so as the
economy begins to pick up again and
businesses start hiring they're more
comfortable reaching into the buffer
stock of employed workers and hiring out
of that pool at a small premium to get a
worker out of that pool as opposed to
pilfering workers from their competitor
because they don't want to hire people
who've been out of work for a long time
and they bid up wages more aggressively
to get workers ok Jane I it's along the
same lines as jenkees questions so I am
just wanted to under Steve you could
explain how a tude wage system in a job
guarantee program of February funded job
guarantee program doesn't serve the it's
priced ability function and and if that
was to be adopted how it winds sort of
undermine any spending that we would be
needing to do in terms of tackling
climate change so there's been some
discussion around well I wasn't here for
that no no just so yeah I'm I'm a little
reluctant to try to weigh in too heavily
on that because first I wasn't there
second my own research hasn't looked at
that ok ok all right ok there gentleman
in the back thank you yeah hello
Stephanie welcome to Australia thank you
my name is Andrew I wanted to just
follow up on this question of the
availability of real resources going
beyond the question of money and if we
had a need for a big program of for
example building renewable renewable
energy in ten years would it be a
natural part of that program to simply
build the productive resources that we
needed as part of the program build the
factories we needed it whatever if we
don't have it yes sure yes yeah simple
crystal yes so figure out the resources
you need figure out the resources you
have and then figure out we're gonna get
the rest
and in part three investing in creating
those resources that that's right now
I'm anticipating people saying well we
don't actually have enough factories to
do that but you naturally build them
before you before you started trying to
punch out a whole lot of other stuff yes
yeah okay yeah okay I think we're gonna
have just a couple more questions
because stephanie has to working very
hard and I think we've worked more than
hard enough so this gentleman here has
said again he's had his hand up iFit I'm
sorry Paul Paul is doing his marathon
run a bit now he's coming into the final
straight Paul is approaching and yes and
then we'll look for a woman to have the
final question well well no Paul and
thank you Stephanie is that really
enjoyable listening to you this
afternoon end on Friday you said that in
a particularly useful in absolutely
question is regarding resources or
paying for as they will say easily now
you're gonna have a good day
IOC is gonna have a lot of opposition
attacks and there's gonna be a lot of
fear tactics use and fear tactics work
when people aren't educated in the
details so first of all do you agree
with that and secondly if you do how
will you educate the people during a
scare campaign and with alarmist media
headlines well do I agree I'm sure I
agree on at least some level with that
statement how much detail people require
I mean sort of look at the recent
election in the UK and I kind of feel
like maybe the Labour Party went too far
trying to give too many details and it
didn't work so but I don't think you can
go the other extreme and just say just
trust us either no details somewhere in
the middle of all of that is probably
the right balance I wouldn't know where
to draw the line but it's information
overload too much detail the more deal
what I've learned in getting involved
with people who are running for
president and so forth is that the more
tail you provide the more details there
are to pick apart sometimes less is more
you roll out a very detailed pay for
thing and I'm going to do this then what
happens it's not going to raise the
revenue they say it's gonna raise they
won't do this there's and they just
everyone focuses on the details and then
we forget to argue the morale the right
we forget the message what is the policy
really about so the fight gets corrupted
so yes you have to address they're going
to go on television and they're gonna
say have to give up your hamburger you
have to give up your straw you have to
give up your weekend right all of those
things then you gotta have a response to
that or they will win with that negative
messaging so I don't know we're in the
middle the right answer lies but I think
you can get in trouble with too many
details right one that woman you were
standing right next to a woman at the
factory sorry I sort of pointed I'm
sorry
then come and ask Stephanie a question
before Stephanie it was mentioned in
Phil's talk yesterday about how much of
our informal economy is taken up by
those household carer tasks such as
parenting caring for disabled people etc
does your model of the green you deal
and the job guarantee look at those
traditionally women's roles of childcare
caring for family members disabled
people etc does that fit into job
guarantee positions possibly and as a
way to balance agenda pay up as I have
always understood the job guarantee
through the work of people like Pavlina
Chernova through Flavio Dante's through
Randy Wray the American contingent I'll
confine my remarks who have been working
on job guarantee for some 20 years or
more that has always been a piece of it
because Pavlina has said we need to
build a CARICOM
and that the work itself should be
oriented broadly around the creation and
fostering of a care economy
it means caring for people caring for
the planet caring for communities caring
for others right I can hire Steven to go
sit in the elder care facility and hold
my mother's hand she's not an elder care
but if she were and I lived very far
away and you know I either have to give
up my job and move from New York to
California to be with her and make those
sacrifices or I can live in a society
where I know that someone is gonna be
there every day to read her story play
game of checkers with her hold her hand
talk to her and I feel that she's not
isolated and alone and that she's well
cared for so if she lives in my hometown
and I want to be there and take care of
her during those months or years instead
of paying a stranger to do that you
could compensate me as I step out of the
labor force and do homecare work and I'm
comfortable with that
perfect that sounds perfectly reasonable
to me.
okay now I hope you're gonna let
me after this thank some other people
too but I just wanted to say I was
walking over to pick Stephanie up but
just now and I was thinking about you
lot back here and how much you wanted to
her to speak to you but I was very
reluctant to ask her to come over and do
so um and she insisted on coming and
speaking to you not disappointing you
the other thing I want to say you know
I'm I'm still going to Bikram yoga I'm
trying to live long enough to see
somebody like Bernie Sanders elected to
a position of power in the US
something like a green new deal you can
call it a green transition if you like
the rose by any other name as far as I'm
concerned in both the US and Australia
and internationally and I also you know
I want to live long enough to see
Treasury Secretary Stephanie Kelton
[Music]
all right so thank you my new thing is
US ambassador to Austria.
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英語 (自動生成)
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