2020年8月26日
文字起こし well welcome to esgx live the community for information and education to inspire collaboration and action to help build or rebuild a stronger more resilient economy in society with me nigel lake in new york and my co-host in san francisco paul herman we have a fantastic discussion coming up today with stephanie kelton author of the book the deficit myth which i have here i have not yet finished but i have to say it's a fantastic read and well worth your time just as a very brief introduction to what's coming up i guess i was reminded in reading this about the famous quote from dickens about having slightly more income than your expenditure being happiness and slightly less income than your outgoings being an absolute disaster and of course that was ingrained in me as a kid and something you've live i've lived with most of my life i grew up in the uk we went through the terrible years the 1970s i remember eating breakfast or lunch buy or dinner by candlelight cooked over a gas stove there was all sorts of changes eventually brought about by margaret thatcher some of which was good some of which was terrible for the people that have left were left behind and of course since then a lot of water has run under the bridge this is interest rate or gdp in japan a very long period of low growth and various other countries have followed down the same path since then of course all of the things that we're talking about today matter because of these various different crises that we're dealing with the covet outbreak where the case numbers globally are now just short of 24 million that was this morning over 800 000 deaths a lot of tragedy as a result of that we have a financial crisis that is running we have all of the knock-on effects which flow on from that to deal with and of course you may worry about the debts that are being run up around the world we have environmental crisis i've spent part of my time in australia we've had terrible fires and floods there of course now shocking fars on the west coast of the us and more beyond so really with that as a quick reminder as to how very significant these issues are i will hand over to paul herman very shortly to introduce the show a quick reminder to do to introduce yourselves in the chat to join the discussion there there is a q a function if you put your questions in the q a we will have a better chance of finding them and we will do our level best to answer them and finally thank you for joining us if you're on youtube and do please share there as well every time you hit the like button about 15 more people watch our guests messages so we very much appreciate that so i will leave it over the pool to take away the shape great thank you nigel um i'm paul herman from hip investor uh delighted to have another monthly episode of the green jobs report with us today is dr stephanie kelton i can't wait to get my book copy signed uh i post covid so uh thanks stephanie for uh bringing it together and there's also a online book club on vimeo that goes through each chapter as well that you can re-watch which a couple hundred people uh had joined uh and then of course dr fadel khabib of uh global institute for uh sustainable prosperity and denison university and amir khaleghi at the university of missouri kansas city and um uh dr scott fullweiler will um not be joining us today so we'll have a focus panel among dr stephanie dr phanel amir and myself uh just a quick intro before we do the the monthly jobs report uh you know at hip investor we have five pillars we originally based those on maslow's hierarchy of needs there's our health and wealth earth and equality and trust and you'll hear at the conventions people talking about the health crisis covid crisis you'll hear them talking about the wealth and income inequality we all know that we're in a climate crisis the earth pillar but we're also in an equality crisis including racial justice and uh just in equality across generations as well as gender inequality and we're really in a crisis of trust of corruption of taking advantage of systems by uh that don't benefit everybody so this health wealth earth equality trust crisis needs systemic responses so what we'll first go through today is what's happening in the u.s with the real jobs information changing month by month um and then uh dr stephanie kelton will come in provide some feedback on uh what she sees in jobs economic and policy making and all of us will have a deeper discussion around what specific green jobs policies screen jobs programs um and actions that we can all participate and engage with all right i'm here if you can come online i'll uh start up the slides for this month and uh welcome amir um to this month's green jobs report thank you paul so for our august 2020 green jobs report for those of you who are just joining us uh for the first time our greens jobs report measures the direction momentum and changes towards greener jobs to promote a more sustainable economy the way that we analyze our green jobs is by looking at companies that are scored by human impact and profit ratings which paul mentioned has pillars of health wealth earth equality and trust pillars that promote people planet and trust the way that we link these companies to the industries is by taking nax codes and we connect it with the current employment statistics surveys the greenness of industries will vary depending on their human impact and profit rating but some examples of highly rated industries medium-rated industries and low-rated industries would be that of recycling services and cleaning compound manufacturers as highly rated industries hospital and insurance agencies as medium rated industries and the lowest extractive industries would be that of goyal oil and gas extraction and casinos so what we have consistently found is that greener industries have have been the most resilient and most stable during the covet 19 crisis proportionally greener rated industries have been the least impacted during covid19 with a reduction of employment of about 5 percent as compared to the most destructive industries that contain around 13 or 12.74 and they have sustained the highest proportional job loss so on a month-to-month view um this story is the same right so greener industries have been the most resilient and we should pay special attention to the march and april uh months because that's when the economy started closing and we saw the greatest effects towards the coven 19 crisis and we can see that significantly the greener industries were least affected with a reduction of seven point or six point seven percent while the most extractive industries sustained a 18 loss proportionally to their employment since february so not only do we measure uh you know human impact and profit ratings a portion of that a pillar of that is the products and services that industries provide and the greener industries provide products and services that are net beneficial to society while extractive industries produce products that are less beneficial perhaps towards the environment or extractive of you know their employment and such but something that to be noted from the month-to-month change is that the net positive industries were the first to recover so although uh substantially across the board in march to april there was almost a similar uh reduction the greener more positive products and services those industries were the first to recover as seen from april to may and may to june so looking at the initial unemployment claims we saw a extreme hike in initial employment claims as the economy had shut down due to covid 19. this peaked on april 18th with a total of 5. 5.8 million initial claims but since the peak unemployment claims have experienced a consecutive decline due to the reopening of the economy and we should take uh you know specific note of the leisure and hospitality sector because they were the most affected we will you know look more closely at this sector in the following slides but as an overview we saw a return of employment of 592 000 in june and previously a return of 2.9 million in may so again looking closer at the leisure and hospitality sector the return of employment in this sector is correlated with the decline in ue claims initial ue claims so from february to april leisure and hospitality lost around 8 million jobs due to the lockdown and this equates to a 51 decline in the employment of this sector the reflection of the return to employment is seen in the decline of the ue claims which was shown on the previous slide but as of right now leisure and hospitality employment is still four million jobs below the february estimate turning to average hourly earnings um in june we saw in may and june we saw record declines in average hourly pay with the decrease of 1.8 percent and this is correlated with the cutting of lower quality jobs especially those in leisure and hospitality uh your restaurants your accommodation services so these lower quality jobs uh were so actually let me rephrase that so april we saw a 4.7 increase in uh average hourly pay which is a record amount but this is correlated with the cutting of lower quality jobs that was seen in you know sectors like leisure and hospitality and due to the uh i guess eradication of these jobs uh we saw a uh readjustment of the average hourly pay so although we saw a 4.7 increase this is due to the mechanics of averages and by cutting these lower quality jobs with that are associated with lower pay uh recalculated the average to appear as we were getting higher average hourly pay across the economy but this was not the case but thankfully in july we actually saw the the inklings of the return to those leisure and hospitality uh sectors so we're starting to see the the height the normalization of uh hikes in um average hourly pay as opposed to what we saw in april so what we see here is a month-to-month view of the average hourly pay and something to notice here is that march to april for the net extractive industries saw the highest hike in pay but this is correlated with these industries being more tendent to cut lower quality jobs and the proportion of lower quality jobs were higher in these net extractive industries if we were to look at the net positive industries seen in green we see that it remained the most stable as compared to the net extractive industries with only an increase of 3.45 percent which was below the national average uh seen in april whereas the net extractive industries were seen to have these higher pay cuts due to the the cutting of lower quality jobs this again is seen here right in taking note of the changes in employment the chart here is showing the month-to-month change percentage-wise in employment since february and we see for the net extractive industries a substantially larger amount of reduction as compared to the net positive industries the most extractive industries saw a reduction of 18 percent uh you know medium-tiered industries saw a reduction of 15 percent and the net positive industries only saw a reduction of 6.7 percent and remained the most stable uh throughout the entire covid crisis which just is another bullet point towards the that net positive industries have higher quality jobs and are while net negative industries have more low quality jobs and they were more tendent to cut these low quality jobs as the economy was affected by the covet 19 crisis so despite reductions in the average hourly wage green jobs still remain the highest paying and highest quality jobs as saying here these are the absolute amounts of average hourly pay for each of the human impact plus profit rating intervals and you can see substantially that net positive industries have a higher paying higher wage inter as compared to net extractive industries so although there was a decline in average hourly pay seen across the entire economy uh net positive industries still remained the highest paying uh when compared to other uh jobs throughout the economy so moving towards you know high contact sectors of the economy we mimicked the analysis by the st louis fed in terms of looking at occupations that weren't that the social distancing propensity of occupations throughout the economy so for definition high contact industry sectors would be occupations which require work to be within one arm's length where low contact industries contain occupations that allow for social distancing we can see that obviously high contact industries had a higher absolute amount in terms of reduction of 8.8 million since february whereas low contact industries had a reduction of 3.8 million in employment since since february but as this next slide shows even in high contact sectors greener industries are more resilient to the job loss so what we did is looked at the industries that were in high contact and low contact and we divvied them up by their hip rating and we found that industries with a higher hip rating were less likely to lose jobs even within the high contact industry sectors and within high contact industry sectors you can see here right the industries that were below a 30 hip score saw a reduction of around approximately 17 percent whereas the industries that were above 30 hip score had a reduction of 14.7 percent and the case would still remain the same in terms of low contact industries for the resiliency of uh higher hip scored industries so we see here that below 30 hip score we see around a 9.4 percent decrease in employment since february for low contact industries whereas industries that were above a 30 hip score had around a uh 5.3 reduction in terms of absolute amounts in high contact industries from may to june we saw a 1.4 million return in jobs for industries that were above a 30 hip score rating whereas uh industries that were below 30 hip score rating we saw a return of 900 000 so we saw a higher return even we saw a higher return in absolute terms for industries that were above 30 hit rating as well and the key takeaway here is that greener jobs remained more resilient when compared to extractive industries not only in high contact to low contact but across the board in terms of uh the impact of the covid19 crisis so future analysis for our green jobs report is we have taken a deep dive in looking at the current employment statistics survey which releases the monthly jobs report and releases a month by month update of those numbers what we want to begin looking at is the oes survey or the occupational employment statistics survey which is an annual survey that is conducted by the bls the same people who you know published the ces estimates but what we want to do is start looking at the occupations within each industry and providing comparisons so for example this diagram here what we will do is start by looking at an industry super sector so such as health services we then look at the four digit makes industry code which would equate to industries such as offices of physicians outpatient care centers home health care services which all have a unique hip score that we have placed on these industries we then due to the oes survey have occupational data an example of these occupations would be that of management community and social services healthcare practitioners and normally there's around 15 to 20 major occupational examples that are given within the oes survey but as compared to the ces survey since this survey is on an annual basis we have a more granular more detailed uh pool of data that we can compare so for example we can compare hourly wages the annual wages the median wages and even the wages for the top 25 percentile the the lowest uh 25 percent tile and we can also analyze it by location so on a national scale state scale or even as small as a metropolitan you know scale or magnifying granularity we also have the option of looking at the occupational percentage which is the percent of the industry employment in a given occupation so for example whether healthcare practitioners within offices of physicians make up 30 of the employment within that specific industry but something that we also want to promote as a final note to help us in our additive process of looking at hip scores it's continually evolving and what we want to do is promote company transparency especially in terms of environmental terms because a lot of companies aren't incentivized to show their earthly practices environmental practices so what we want to do is create a promote a standardized system of reporting which would provide benefits that avoid fraudulent behavior exploitation and overall garner socially beneficial practices and overall accountability for companies uh within the united states thank you great thank you amir another insightful compelling green jobs report so these slides will be posted on the esgx site so if you want to go back to them or look at them or share them with your colleagues or analyze them please let us know so stephanie if you want to come on the screen um i want to bring you on board in the chat box uh we circulated the um not only the link to the deficit myth uh but also the uh the vimeo book club and then somebody also asked about the job guarantee so there's another book uh by dr pavlina chernova about job guarantee and when you go to amazon and you say um who else you know who else buys books that are related you'll see these two pop up together so uh stephanie tell us what you're seeing today in terms of green jobs and how that might be blending into policy and policy proposals and there's also this overhang of like pay as you go and do we need to do that or not or are there other ways of financing a transition to a greener economy sure well let me just start by saying thank you to you and to the others for the invitation to join you for a little bit of time today this is um really nice so i think you know the work that you're doing is um so interesting and so important and so i feel very lucky now to have gotten a preview of this because we did a dry run people don't know a few days ago so i got to hear this freezing wonderful presentation twice um you know look i i was on uh cnbc this morning and we were i thought we were going to spend a little bit more time talking about the economy and you know in the context of the convention and we have these sort of competing narratives right as we did before really uh actually about whether we've got a good economy whether we had a good economy whether what we really want to do is build the economy that we had just bring it all back right and restore something that we can call normal and uh so much of what i'm hearing just you know hearkens back to 2016. we all remember you know the candidates then um secretary clinton and donald trump and you had on the one hand donald trump speaking to um some very real and persistent uh problems in the economy now he's no environmentalist to be sure but you know he understood certain things certain realities let's say about the way the economy was working and for whom it was working and who had been left behind and he addressed that pain and he spoke directly to people in hard-hit communities in hard-hit regions of the country and i'll never forget him saying help is on the way help is on the way that message really i think resonated and on the other hand and this is not to knock secretary clinton really but you know the other message was uh he's saying make america great again and she's saying america is already great and there was a disconnect there you know we have this idea that if there are jobs then that's enough if that there are jobs but it's not enough and your work is so important here because you're talking about good jobs resilient jobs what kind of jobs do we want because we've lost so many we've got 28 million americans on income support now who've been you know dislocated from their employment as a result of coronavirus and the lockdowns and the economic fallout and we've only brought back about four in 10 lost jobs so far so we have a long way to go and the question is you know where do we go what what are the policies that are going to help shape the future recovery and it's not enough just to bring back jobs we brought back jobs last time it took 76 months it took a little over six years to claw back the jobs that were lost in the wake of the financial crisis in the great recession but we know that the jobs that came back were in almost all respects inferior to the jobs that were lost so they were lower hour lower wage jobs they weren't quality jobs and your work is shining an even brighter light on the nature of employment what kinds of jobs are are most resilient and so i think there is an opportunity here and you know you're raising questions about politicians and legislation and pay fors and the fights the battles that lie ahead there are clearly opportunities here we can take advantage of an economic environment where we've got tens of millions of people who want to work and we can put them to work doing the kinds of jobs in green tech and you know green jobs more broadly that will help us build back as vice president biden says better better stronger more resilient more responsibly so um you know that's the backdrop against which my book is now sort of floating around out there and um you know we all went through 2019 we saw a very crowded field of democratic presidential hopefuls who you know had platforms ranging in ambition from a very ambitious screen new deal to a slightly scaled down version to you know a next-to-nothing version and and everything in between you know healthcare and student debt and the whole of the thing and everyone listening now knows i'm sure that um 2019 these candidates were dogged at every turn with this question how will you pay for it where is the money coming from for all of these things you want to do and each of the candidates and i mean across the board everyone had an answer to that question they could draw a line from every item on their policy agenda to the revenue source that was going to pay for it all okay so that was 2019. the money had to come from somewhere it all had to be paid for now fast forward to 2020 and all of a sudden everything has changed because we have coronavirus and all of a sudden the whole debate all of the pay for questions all of the concerns about deficits and so forth go right out the window we have a crisis and we have to act and have to act quickly and congress starts spinning out legislation sometimes multi-trillion dollar spending bills without a moment's pause for where is the money coming from how will we pay for it you know they just order up the cash that's what's happening congress writes a what we call in washington i worked on the hill for a little while a clean bill a clean bill just provides one set of instructions to the federal reserve which is the government's bank the the clean bill says to the fed get ready we are ordering up 2.2 trillion dollars for the cares act and you're going to make the payments on behalf of the u.s treasury that's a clean bill a dirty bill a clunky bill a pay for bill sends two sets of instructions it tells the federal reserve we're going to be spending 2 trillion on xyz and we're gonna be asking you to debit to mark down the size of balance sheets of bank accounts uh because we're raising taxes on these people in these ways so two sets of instructions some people will receive credits to their bank accounts because the government is spending some people will see their bank accounts debited because the government is raising taxes so the question going forward is i think one important question when do we have to start picking two fights when do we have to start offsetting some of the spending that we want to do for relief and recovery and reform going forward how much low-hanging fruit is there how much room is there in the economy to safely handle additional spending before those offsets become necessary before we have to start thinking about i want to put a dollar in but i'm going to need to take a dollar out because i need to reduce purchasing power as i add it so that i don't provide too much lead to too much spending and inflation that's it so a large part of what the book is about is trying to get us to think about the federal budgeting process differently approach the question differently don't go into it with the mind frame or the mindset that everything has to be fully offset that we need to pass legislation that adheres to pago always we don't and i suspect we won't for quite a good while because the economy is going to remain very depressed unemployment levels are going to remain high and as long as you know inflation is uh remains low and we don't see potential for inflation flaring up um we can accomplish a lot a lot uh and we need to right there are all of these pressing urgent problems i have a chapter in the book called um the deficits that matter that try to get us focused on the real deficits real problems real challenges in our economy turn our attention away from obsessing over this budget outcome because that's what got us into trouble last time right congress did the stimulus bill and then basically went awol and that was it and then left it all up to the central bank left it up to the fed and so i'm going to close with this one observation we know that we don't want to leave it up to the central bank and guess who else knows jerome powell the chairman of the fed ben bernanke former fed chairman janet yellen former fed chairman all of them right powell gave remarks today he is making it very clear we got to have a fiscal partner you don't want us trying to do this alone janet yellen in an op-ed just today same thing don't repeat the mistakes of the past fiscal policy government congress you have to be in the game ben bernanke in an op-ed just in the last few months very powerful message for congress don't do to this fed chairman what you did to me don't hang him out to dry don't close up the purse strings before the job is done get in there and stay in there and so we've got the resources when it comes to funding um major legislation we can handle that that's actually the easy part the difficult part is deciding prioritizing and figuring out where you know what strategically what to invest in where to get the most bang for the buck you know where to make the right long-term investments for uh you know prosperity for the sake of the planet and and so forth so that's that's it that's how i'm thinking okay so that's really exciting and just want to brief everybody um we've scheduled an hour we're probably going to go longer than our depend on your questions and our answers so feel free as you're already doing in the chat box in the question box to t there's a um a photo will look me on screen as well um so i have a question is gonna sound a little bit uh quirky on the way in you know hollywood movies are combinations of previous hollywood movies so like star wars was a spaghetti cowboy western set in outer space for example or you know predator was alien with arnold schwarzenegger you know in a jungle um policy sometimes is easier to remember when it's uh like franklin delano roosevelt had the new deal and that was a lot of fiscal policy and jobs policy um and less of the federal reserve um turning on uh its power to now essentially by uh exchange traded funds and muni bonds uh from states and cities as well as muni bond etfs um and so we had some deficit spending uh during ronald reagan in 1980 we had fdr in the 1930s and 1940s um we had more deficit spending under bush one and bush two we have a tremendous amount of bush uh deficit spending uh under trump we had some deficit spending for recovery an american recovery act um and you can even go into the future maybe there's like a you know future candidate but what would if stephanie kelton was the 2020 candidate what would be the message and what mixes of previous policies and new policies would you blend together in the solution to to get us towards a more stable society that's so that's interesting uh i think that in many ways you know when this was all unfolding in sort of mid-march um i was i think one of the very first things that i said publicly was nationalized payroll you know it was absolutely in my view critical to try to keep workers attached to their employers and so you keep them on payroll and out of the workplace that was the right thing to try to do and i that's that's sort of what we tried to do with the payroll protection program right the small business lending it's just that you know we didn't execute flawlessly and uh for a variety of reasons one of them being that we were starting from scratch with a program like this we're looking off to europe and saying oh they do it this way over there we should try that and the problem is they've been doing it that way in germany for a hundred years so they have a century of polluting during 2008. yeah and it's a cult there's a cultural thing the nature of the work is different and so for a variety of reasons it it works better um and we tried to cobble it together very hastily and then rely on private banks and well everybody here knows we ended up with you know more than 40 million americans filing for jobless claims so we didn't execute but i think the the spirit the intention uh was correct so now the question you're posing me is in 2020. so where are we now well we are in a situation where you know as i said earlier four and only four in ten jobs have come back we know that many of the businesses that closed and they said temporarily more than half now the expectation is that they are going to be permanently closed those jobs that were associated with those are going to disappear not temporarily but many of them are permanent job losses so one of the things that i think is really vital going forward and this is like a new deal era program so learning from the lessons of the past is we can create jobs directly we don't have to wait for the private sector to you know recover to the point that they that businesses feel that they're strong enough healthy enough that you know the profits will be there that they're prepared to go back and hire millions and millions of people we can't afford to wait for that and there's too much useful work to be done in the interim so we can uh put in place programs that look something like what we did or what they did under the wpa the um sorry under the new deal the wpa the ccc the national youth we need youth jobs we can't have young people by the millions out there you know frustrated bored angry um you know we can't have that so i think that's one thing and then of course we need to do things with infrastructure and housing we have a housing crisis i mean it takes me back to the deficits that matter chapter we have so many um deficiencies in our economy health care i mean you know uh i can i can sit down and write a budget and we can start addressing a lot of these problems but climate you know has to be at the top of the list and a lot of things get woven into climate um jobs poverty homelessness you know we can address a lot of things in addressing climate okay can we just um standardize on some overlaps so there's the deficit myth um and so this is that the government doesn't have to have a budget that's balanced like your household that's one of the core concepts right um and the government can do that because it has its own sovereign currency so the us can do this uh south african rand could do this japanese yen can do this um uh so is that a new modern monetary theory is that mmt um or their overlaps uh how much is traditional uh how much is modern and what other things are in the recipe what other concepts do we need to bring together to do that well so mmt starts by focusing on countries that have what we would call a high degree or a lot of monetary sovereignty now south africa is a little tricky because they do borrow in foreign currency and so that does move them you know if you imagine a spectrum and countries like the us and japan and the uk having a high degree of monetary sovereignty being at one end of the spectrum and then countries that you know outright and use somebody else's currency ecuador panama or something you know and then currency boards and other fixed exchange rate regimes countries in the euro zone that adopted the euro so you've got a spectrum there um many countries have enough monetary sovereignty to be able to orient their macro economic policy their fiscal and monetary policy around maintaining a good economy a healthy economy that operates with full employment where they don't have to be fearful that bond markets are going to take over and move their interest rate in ways that make it unsustainable to service their debt that they don't have to worry that exchange rates will fluctuate in ways that is going to leave them unable to buy critical imports food medicine energy that they would be importing you know massive inflation so it mmt is useful i think across all the spectrum because it can help countries with little monetary sovereignty understand why it's important to try to capture more monetary sovereignty um did i get your core part of your question yeah are there any other input so like one of the lessons i remember from econ was gdp is consumers plus business investment plus government plus the net change in exports and one of the things that i hear as you're talking about this is if consumer spending isn't there and if business investment isn't there then gdp can be made up by the government um but what's different than consumer balance sheets and business balance sheets is the government especially with the sovereign currency has a very flexible balance sheet and so are there any other concepts to help understand this that we should bring in and that then sounds like it provides some superpowers and so those super powers are maybe to help get the economy through a covert crisis through a climate crisis can it solve an inequality crisis um it took world war ii for fdr for us to break out of the great depression will it take a war for us to break out of this i certainly just understand how some of those pieces might fit together yeah i mean so yes the the basic you know hydraulics of the system the mechanics of gdp are such that you know gdp is just the the way that we measure total spending on newly produced goods and services in the economy so you're right you've got spending that happens because the household sector is making purchases spending that happens because the business sector is buying spending that happens because government state local federal is spending and then the rest of the world right and you aggregate that you come up with this thing called gdp i don't think that gdp is a goal in and of itself right to target but what you want to recognize is that if you've produced output and the demand for that output isn't there if there isn't someone who wants to turn around and spend and buy that output then the producer the seller of that output has little incentive to continue to produce at that level in other words they'll scale production back they'll lay off some workers so then you have a real problem you have unemployment and there is where mmt can provide a solution how do we deal with that today well mostly we say to the central bank that's your valley that's your what's the word uh what's the term of art the bat not a ballywood i don't know it's your that's your uh first special book what's a term jurisdiction obviously okay i'll take that there's one that starts with a b but i can't think of it that's that is your job that is your jurisdiction so we wait for the central bank and what and what do they do they play with the interest rate so to to deal with rising unemployment central banks reduce the interest rate why because they want to make it cheaper to borrow so in other words monetary policy works when it does by driving people into debt right we say to people you need to borrow some money take out a loan put yourself on the hook for future repayments because that's how we're going to restore jobs and and provide growth and so forth mmt says well hang on okay um there's another policy lever you don't have to always pull the monetary policy lever there's a fiscal policy lever so we can spend money directly hiring people and putting them to work that's one option republicans might say well but we could do it through tax cuts well maybe um they like to aim in the wrong direction i think most of the time but it's not impossible to imagine the tax cuts if they are well targeted it's like a pay raise right your disposable income goes up you may spend more because your disposable income goes up that might help restore some jobs and support the economy so that's just part of mmt we kind of accept the monetary fiscal nexus we have different opinions about which of those two levers is the more reliable um and also because minsky is important in their in the framework we understand and who's that who's minsky oh i'm sorry uh jaime minsky the one of the i think most important economists of the 20th century famous for a few things one the probably the most famous is his work in the financial instability hypothesis so financial markets understanding the way that the financial system evolves through time from one that's relatively robust stable not subject to crisis and then over time you know the system becomes increasingly fragile and the reason is that people start taking on more and more debt and at some point something happens that makes it difficult for people with debt to service that debt on time the cash flow isn't there interest rates rise something happens and that's when you start to create fragilities in the system and ultimately a financial crisis so relying on uh monetary policy to drive people to borrow and spend into the economy does have consequences right in terms of private sector debt and the sustainability of the financial system and the economy through time so mmt integrates all of that now mainstream may not right different schools of thought may not have much of a place at all if any for minsky we also um pay a lot of attention to the work of another great economist uh wynn godley who kind of puts the pieces of the economy together in by chopping it into different sectors and then helping to show people how important it is for the government's budget to offset changes in other spending or saving you could say desires right the rest of the world wants to save more in terms of the us dollar well that to satisfy that demand those dollars have to come from somewhere if the private sector wants to save more and spend less to satisfy that demand the dollars have to come from somewhere and the government's own budget can move um into deficit or into bigger deficit to help satisfy the saving desires of other parts of the economy which helps protect jobs and keep this the economy more stable through time all right follows anything you want to contribute on that point yeah well thank you again stephanie for for joining us today um the way i see it we have a couple of things on the table here that give us the potential the opportunity to really move the conversation and the policy space uh and in the right direction i think uh one is what amir presented today and really the intuition behind this green jobs uh project that we've started a few months ago which shows as amir demonstrated today we have green jobs are more resilient during you know on the way into the crisis there recover faster on the way out or even during the crisis green jobs pay better green jobs tend to be safer even in the high contact industries in the middle of a pandemic so it's it's like a color-coded picture in your face you can't deny it this is you know this research is kind of laying out the metric that says if you want the the greatest impact for your public policy spending we need to be investing in this direction more resilient jobs that pay better that are safer and so on so it's kind of the the bigger metric and then the second piece we have on the table is the work you've done in the mmt framework that says the spending capacity at the at the federal level is much larger than what we usually think there's plenty of firepower and we have this metric that says these are the areas where we can transform and build more resilience in the economy resilience on the green front resilience in terms of quality of life resilience in terms of addressing structural inequalities and so on and you know when when you think of the mmt you know work 20 years ago 25 years ago versus today we've we've gone a long way in terms of you know getting this into the public domain uh in policy-making circles in the media with with the general public the the remaining question is what's the missing piece of the puzzle to move us from exposing you know the deficiencies the real deficits that matter uh and showing that a better world is within reach we're not talking pie in the sky it's not going to bankrupt the country it's not going to cause hyperinflation and we have a metric that says these are the investments these are the areas where you can invest in weatherizing the economy broadband defication of rural areas all of these things that you know we kind of learn from what we've done before in the in the new deal of the 1930s and other experiences and just you know put people in you know good paying jobs to build this better economy what's the missing piece that's stopping us from getting there in in the policy space because this is this is about executing you know in the right direction is that a question it's a question to you stefan yes the votes the votes the votes fund the spending um you know i i think there is some timidity still um even though you know members of congress are spinning out these multi-trillion dollar bills i if you had to ask me last year if the house would pass a three trillion dollar spending bill with no offsets i would have said you are absolutely crazy in a million years and here we are so we know we can do it we know they can do it the the risk here is the same as before are they getting cold feet will they pivot to austerity will they start allowing the increase in the deficit and the increase in the debt to um you know undermine their willingness to think big and ambitious going forward about and if they if it does then what it does is it puts us back in a situation where they have to pick two fights over every spending bill anything they want to do must be you know adhere to pay pay go so it's got to be paid for and that means that if you want to do something you don't just have to convince enough of your colleagues to vote for that spending on that thing you want to accomplish you also have to go around and collect enough votes to pass the legislation that calls for the tax increase or whatever and um you know a lot of members won't vote for that because they think that that makes them politically vulnerable to raise taxes um some wouldn't vote for a clean bill because they think it makes them vulnerable if they add to the deficit then there's just a question of a difference of um philosophies you know i don't believe i don't want this you know green and clean i i like dirty and brown and and so we have different philosophical uh ideas about you know what what good jobs look like and so forth so they're how about this there was the copenhagen consensus that laid out you know the estimated trillions of dollars to hit goals in health and wealth and earth and equality and trust so we actually know what the numbers are at least on a global basis and maybe those could be scaled to a national basis um you said the words tax increase but nobody ever talks about tax investment uh or benefits of taxes versus you know just paying a blank check my uh application into the white house fellowship you know i wrote a memo to the president as part of the application on tax cuts for auto manufacturers for increasing mpgs and so that eventually you know ended up happening under obama biden um so what uh what else could we do to frame this you know one is you're breaking the myth of the deficit that we have more resilience and as foddle introduced there's more firepower there's certainly a lot of firepower in capital markets right now more than anybody imagine what else what other frame shifts do we need um to get uh people to elect representatives who vote for this type of power to generate the benefit we all seek look we we need to start thinking in terms of how to budget our nation's real resources because that is what matters we are wealthy beyond words in this country but not because we have more billionaires per capita than anybody else no what makes us a rich wealthy country we have enormous natural resources we have 330 million people and we have you know um raw materials and we have you know beautiful land and we we have the real material resources that we need to do incredible things in this country and so you know going forward what one of the things that we really do need is to transform the way that we approach the federal budget the federal budgeting process when you write a bill right now and you say you know i'm a staffer on the hill and my member of congress has this bill my job is to go around and try to find support for this bill so i run around the other offices i pick up the phone i call and i say my boss has this bill to do xyz will your boss jump on it and the first question is what's your pay for every single time the first question is what's your pay for and if it's considered toxic if that member couldn't vote for that you know tax increase or whatever then that's it the conversation is done you hang up the phone why because well there are politics involved with the tax increase obviously but there is also this little issue of the congressional budget office and if you're going to do any major spending bill that you propose is going to get run through cbo and the congressional budget office is this they say nonpartisan independent scoring body right they take a look at the legislation and they give lawmakers feedback the problem is they give them the least useful feedback you could possibly offer they tell them whether it adds to the deficit whether it increases the debt to gdp ratio over a 10-year period that is not what's important right so if as long as we're relying on a methodology that evaluates proposed new spending bills on the basis of whether they do or don't add to the deficit we're in real trouble because we're a lot of very good bills die at cbo they get a bad score and then nobody will touch it it's toxic it can't go to the floor it can't get a vote so one of the things i think we need i talk about this in the last chapter of the book is just uh we need to transform the process so that we're asking independent third party if we're going to do it that way you know we didn't have a congressional budget office in the 1930s we didn't have a cbo in the 1960s we got social security we got medicare we got interstate high we had a lot of good stuff right now we have this obstacle and it it does end up um you know standing in the way of a lot of good stuff now they may also stop some bad things from happening and they do um but the point is that we're going to have a really tough time in the years ahead if we continue to make the deficit and the debt the metrics by which we evaluate and judge the worthwhileness of of new spending we're enrolled this will be a good next topic right here just want to pause we originally thought this might go an hour of course there's a very deep well of insight wisdom here so we may go up to 90 minutes remember we're recording this so if you can't stay if another meeting to go to um this is being recorded be replayed on youtube almost immediately after we finish and on esgx.org by tomorrow all right so metrics that matter foddle you're a big fan of general progress indicator right that's different is that the same or different than gdp what's the same what's different should that be what we aspire to yeah you're referring to gpi the genuine uh progress indicators as a better metric than than gdp because you know everything we we measure in gdp includes things like pollution every time we clean up an oil spill gdp goes up every time people go for cancer treatment because they got sick from you know who knows what gdp goes up so and these things get celebrated on tv as yeah we have economic growth right so that's not the right metric gpi kind of pulls all of those things out and gives us the the you know more direct quality of life indicator and in the case of the us when you look at gpi for the last four decades it's been a flat line and when you break it down by income level gpi has been declining for lower income uh people in the united states so so the the metric of gdp of economic growth at any cost is you know driving us into in the wrong direction that's that's one important thing about you know uh you know and and we can have a cbo that does an alternative metric that provides a useful service to to congress that says these are the things that matter and i and i see a couple questions in the in the chat box that are relevant to you know for example what a cbo can do that will help us not only recognize the additional spending capacity that we have but potentially expand the product the potential spending capacity uh to achieve more of you know the public purpose so to me that you know the real risk as stephanie said is you know running out of productive capacity hitting into that inflation risk inflation limit and to me the inflation you know constraint has something to do with running out of productive capacity skilled people machinery technology the good news about those things they're producible so cbo can identify areas of the economy where we would hit you know a shortage of skills the shortages of technology shortage of resources then we can direct resources to producing more of those resources to producing more technology training more people in certain areas that we need for the future because one thing we know for sure is that the economy constantly moves into higher gear in terms of the necessary skills and techniques required so if anything we need education and vocational training more than ever to be ready for the next you know uh gear that the economy is moving into so let's do that the second thing that cbo can do or the second area where the risk of inflation materializes is areas of the economy where you have market concentration market power what i would call abusive pricing behavior where you know key players are able to raise prices because they can or because we let them because policy makers or lawmakers to be more precise are not doing their job of regulating markets and making sure that markets are more competitive more democratic so if cbo is able to identify market concentration you know pockets that need to be you know democratized via public policy that will also free up more spending capacity that wouldn't you know suck money to the top one percent so that's a very different cbo exercise than less obsess over the deficit and debt to gdp ratios but that that requires instructions from policy makers sending a note to cbo and saying here's what we would like to spend on these are the national priorities give us you know where is the inflation constraint what do we need to do to free up more spending capacity to to stop this suffocation that we have over economic activity yeah and stephanie that's very insightful phenol thanks for sharing that and uh francisca is asked in the chat you know will the u.s wait for other countries to adopt better indicators like genuine progress indicator new zealand and uh prime minister jacinda down there she's looking at overall health metrics as well as wealth metrics the un has the human development index that was like the inspiration of why bill hope investors could we have a human development index that we have for countries could we have it for companies and investments um and uh archery christian asks about like a national investment authority to democratize and help other ordinary people fight climate change so what either frameworks or tools um either that we can learn from other countries exist or that we could blend in in the existing political environment or does it need a complete political revolution to bring some of these i think you know you raise um some useful sort of guides new zealand is a good one i i talk in the last chapter of the book about mission-oriented budgeting you know um budgets are a statement of of values but they're also a way to express priorities right we do have to prioritize because having a sovereign currency does not mean having infinite ability to spend into the economy without risk right obviously there are limits so how do you recognize and that's what we've been talking about with respect to you know how cbo might provide more useful feedback and others about where those limits are um you have to recognize and then respect those limits and so you do have to prioritize so you know i'm not an expert on uh what's going on in new zealand but as i understand it they have or she has the government has laid out sort of five pillars and said we will communicate this is transparent with the population we are going to communicate with you when we put more resources into some area of the budget we're doing so because it fits into a strategic mission we are mission oriented we have these five priorities and any uh new spending that happens happens because it moves us closer to delivering on one of these five missions so i think that's a a really interesting and maybe useful way to proceed you mentioned the un sustainability goals we have those but you know that's what i would do i would um approach the federal budgeting process that way and i would say look we're expanding this program because we see that it works we believe that it's underfunded and our um experts tell us and our research suggests to us that putting you know x more dollars into this program will help to reduce child poverty rates by y percent over two years or three years then hold yourself accountable the metrics the numbers will be there you figure out what's working what's not but you make it clear that decisions are being taken for the purpose of achieving some material change right a goal a mission uh so i i think yes other countries are doing things that we can learn from i don't think we have to reinvent the wheel we may have our own versions of some of these things we might have seven pillars or ten pillars we're a much bigger country um but sure all right are there other institutions um and nigel you may want to come on in a moment to ask your questions too about currencies and states um are there other institutions for example we have a esgx in september on green banks and so um the state of north dakota has its own bank uh which it's had for almost 100 years california has an infrastructure bank um are there other types of banks and institutions that we need or are there other types of programs that we need um what can you share about model might want to say something more on this i when you say that we need then my answer is no we have the only bank we need we have the fed and if we could get the legislation as i said in the kind of opening part of my you know remarks once congress writes the legislation it's ordering up the funds those that bill is literally a set of instructions to its bank to change the appropriate numbers in the appropriate bank accounts right go make these payments so really that's all you need now there may be reasons why um states want to you know do things on their own because they don't think they're going to get the strategic investments that they're after at the state level because congress isn't going to take the appropriate steps to pass legislation to accomplish these things and then um sure you know finding alternative ways to finance things because states and local governments of course are currency users and they cannot do what the federal government can do so um and you know the the fed can do more to help state and local governments as well and some of our mmt colleagues have written uh a lot about that and is there an estimate like the fed could do how much could it do another 1 trillion 5 trillion 10 trillion there's an estimate that if we paid for all the environmental services we use that'd be two times gdp so another you know 20 trillion is there a estimated limit of the fed capacity uh well the fed's capacity is infinite i mean the fed's capacity now how much and the fed is only going to well that's not exactly right but i'm talking about congress authorizing spending and the fed carrying out those payments so the real question then is how much can congress safely authorize could could the senate take up the heroes act and pass the three trillion that the house has already voted on and would that be a safe amount i think yes okay um could they could it be a four trillion dollar bill i think yes um could it be a five trillion dollar bill probably yes okay which i would want to model this stuff i don't want to just kind of go you know off the puff here but but the the thing is do something i mean what we're doing now is a lot of harm because the inaction is gonna you know lead to further job losses and then we're trying to climb back up the hill and we're going to slide back and then we're going to have to climb higher it's going to take longer so start doing things um read the situation get the feedback you'll get feedback pretty quickly but there's going to be we're going to be in this for the long haul um but again inflation is the relevant constraint you run out of unemployed people well then you know you've hit full employment got it okay so full employment is one major goal always yeah and the things that that states and municipalities can do is can be helpful the way i see it is when the federal government abdicates its responsibility to fund all the infrastructure and all the things that we've been talking about there's a role for states and cities to take action and to you know cobble together some resources either via you know a public bank or some state infrastructure bank um they can also raise taxes taxes yeah yeah that's that's their main way of of addressing these these urgent uh issues but at the national level we did have you know during the great depression a reconstruction finance corporation uh at the at the federal level that did you know fund r d and infrastructure and all kinds of things uh and then was was phased away you know for a variety of reasons post post war we can have a green refinance you know refinance construction corporation that has strategic areas of expertise and green technology and green infrastructure so think of it as yes the funding comes from the federal government but maybe you need a layer of strategic decision making and expertise that you know prioritizes which green investments do we really need where do we place you know the the the energy storage units so that becomes um you know a strategic expertise administration that is funded has a direct line of credit essentially from the federal government but to say that we need you know a green bank in every city to institute a green new deal is is exaggerated it can be actually extra cumbersome and uh and and a step back in terms of what we can achieve yeah i was going to pick up on that because some of what we're talking about has echoes of what came out of the financial crisis and all of the the decisions or the the push for that to be more infrastructure built and there are a variety of people that became president or prime minister and said they were going to be the infrastructure president as trump did tony abbott in australia was going to be the infrastructure prime minister there but most of that is being built at a state level and then you get into the politics of if the federal government writes the check for it someone else somehow gets the credit how do you break through that and i guess my question for stephanie was if you know if there's a if there's a federal if sorry if there's a state treasurer listening in what advice do you give them about practically what they can go and start to do that perhaps isn't dependent on the federal government remembering that they're also going to get lots of pressure about not running up too much debt so their credit rating doesn't come under pressure and they don't have the same freedom as a federal government because they don't have fiat currency it is tough barring um sort of extraordinary measures it is very difficult what in the world can states do now that you have governors from the west coast newsom all the way across the east coast cuomo these these are high-profile governors who have been you know at it for months on the airways pleading with congress right there is an urgent need to act they do not have the resources so they're not going to step up in a moment like this when they're you know tax revenues are collapsing around them they're spending more uh on public services because the economy is weak unemployment um social service they're they're just trying to hold things together there's no funding for state and local governments in this moment it's a really tough situation but one of the things governors and and mayors can do is read the deficit myth and empower their constituents so that they speak with a louder voice when they're calling on the federal government to say it's your responsibility to step up and do this we have no resources to do it because you tax and spend you borrow and spend and during a pandemic you you hit your credit limit so to speak so what we need is a is a greater mobilization of these voices at the state level to essentially call on the federal government to do its job yeah i mean even you know a lot of people say well the the fed should be doing more to lend to help support state and local governments the problem is you know even with the invitation and the willingness of the fed to step in and do something like that you've got governors like cuomo is a good example he said i don't want to borrow we're already in a hole the last thing i want to do is take on more debt so that i'm in a more and more you know it's like uh what they need is what uh chairman powell said we can lend but we can't spend they need a one way right you own the cash free and clear they need congress to act so that there is aid provided and they're not on the hook because then it will just end up in a situation where they're cutting later you know you're you're plugging the hole but now they're saddled with all this debt and there will be cuts coming for years down the road so nigel do you have another question yeah the other question i was going to ask was the geopolitical one there's obviously going through a period now with some enormous shifts in geopolitics and there's lots of things come with that i'm really interested in your perspective about what does that mean for you know the u.s and a whole host of other countries that are caught up in that does that impact in any way what you're thinking about or what you're saying we should do here what can we shut out some of that noise and just focus on a domestic agenda whichever country we happen to be sitting in i mean that's tough right i mean you just we're not going to give you all the easy questions yeah no it's not it's more than just noise though you can't shut it out you can't um but if we have a president who doesn't want to engage with you know foreign partners and wants to withdraw from agreements and turn inward and that sort of thing um you're not going to get the international cooperation that i think probably we all agree is absolutely vital in terms of addressing climate and and global recovery i mean the whole economy where you're going to need stronger richer nations advanced economies countries to step up and help because you know there are so many countries that cannot recover on their own they're saddled with debt we're going to need i think debt restructuring we're going to need to allow these countries to get out of the debt we're not going to squeeze them for decades with the imf and structural reforms and all this kind of stuff so that's going to require diplomacy and international cooperation and uh it would sure be nice to have somebody who was you know uh had a a good skill set in those areas because no i don't we can't turn inward we will be hurt if that is our uh strategic approach but but the approach that we've seen in the us in the last four years is not unique to the us there's other places around the world where you know presidents and prime ministers are following the same strategy and i think it's it's a mistake to ignore the fact that this is tapping into real pain globally not just in the us both trump and bernie sanders in 2016 especially in this part of the country and the de-industrialized midwest they pinched the nerve when they talked about the de-industrialization the pain that that was ignored by the establishment politics of the right and the left and this is true in other parts of the world and that nerve is still raw here in the us and other parts of the world so if we're talking about you know uh strategic shift in terms of reaching better outcomes we can't ignore that real pain and a lot of it is it has to do with globalization international trade you know free trade agreements um so that you know the trump narrative obviously is very different than the bernie narrative very different than other people but it's a powerful narrative that put the blame on immigrants on china on mexico and that becomes the geopolitics of the world it's it's the trade wars it's blaming you know others and it's unfortunate to see that other world leaders are doing the same and it works because it's because of that raw paint uh and if we don't have a coherent narrative that says wait a minute a better world is within reach and it doesn't involve blaming people or closing borders or doing xyz then we have you know an opportunity to build a different kind of popular movement politically speaking to demand that better future that's within reach and i think the the mmt narrative provides the tools to build that coherent narrative that says it's not about the others it's not about immigrants it's not about trade it's about this you know fictitious constraint that we're putting in ourselves and then saying we can't spend we're going to suffer and it's because of xyz um so i i think we the potential for this conversation goes beyond the united states um as well i couldn't agree more and you see the exact same uh straight note tactics being used in politics and i i follow the uk quite closely because i grew up there and i'm very connected to australia so i follow that follow that too and you just see the same thing playing out in each of those countries and it's horrible horrible to watch and many people get sucked into it so having a different and more positive narrative and you just put it incredibly well i will go and grab that out of the video afterwards about there being practical things we can do it doesn't involve pain it involves opportunity which will make a real difference to people's lives and can do that quickly rather than what we've seen which is as stephanie said right up front absolutely a correct um calling out of the pain that many people are facing but you know no answer to it no solution afterwards it was purely the pain was used to stir people up they couldn't agree more for that great so as we prepare to wrap up uh we've uh dug dug in deep there's a lot more to go um uh and i just want to call out that some of the examples that we're pointing to new zealand um uh germany and others uh are led by women uh led by women leaders prime ministers presidents and they are also tending to have as kurt lieberman of magnet global pointed out on a previous esg x their country etfs are performing better and their economies are performing better because of this proactive problem solving that isn't stuck in an old model that's helping pioneer a new model like stephanie called out the five pillars in new zealand all right so stephanie your last chapter of the book is called building an economy for the people we like to end on good news here at esgx so what's the vision for the future as you build an economy for the people and um what can we do to help that you're on mute you did i almost got through a whole webinar without forgetting to unmute it would be a first um so look i think you know the goal should be to build a good economy you know what does a good economy look like we haven't had one in so long it's hard to remember but in a good economy you know people can find a job a good paying job when they want one that a job that has benefits attached to it in a good economy um people don't struggle to come up with 400 in an unexpected emergency you know you don't have 40 of the population unable to meet a financial emergency in a good economy you don't have half a million people every year being driven into bankruptcy because of medical related uh expenses in a good economy you don't have 1.7 trillion dollars in student loan debt acting like a wet blanket over the economy holding back 45 million uh people you know who are struggling in a good economy you don't have half a million people sleeping out rough on the streets at night in a good economy you don't have right i mean i can just paint you this picture um so that's what i think you know in a good economy three people don't have half uh don't own as much wealth as half the population i mean we have to have some rebalancing it's you know using the federal budget to balance our economy instead of always focusing on how can we force the economy to balance the budget how do we pay for everything it's just you know flipping that perspective and recognizing that we want to use the federal budget we want to approach the budgeting process use the budget to achieve a broadly balanced economy one that provides opportunity for everyone one that's inclusive one that's um sustainable and resilient and all of these things and the good news is you know the subtitle of the book is uh building an economy for the people it's not kelton's world it's really the people and that's what's in so many ways frustrating because there really is broad bipartisan agreement on a number of big policy issues independents republicans democrats you ask them do you support and you you know poll after poll will show overwhelming majorities want the same things it's only when we get into the sort of brass tacks of attaching the tax increase to pay for it or we play with the language in other ways that some support can fall off but broadly speaking we kind of have an agenda that the nation would support and that the people would want it's just how do we get there you know how do we get lawmakers to pass bills how do we move the ball forward on some of these things so i think people know roughly where they want to go they don't want to go back to what was normal that's the thing i mean we want life to return to normal we want to walk around without a mask and feel safe and and like we're not going to get you know a dangerous virus but um i don't think in light of the virus and the economic fallout that we should look at the pieces the rubble around us and say let's pick them up and put everything back the way it was because that was a good economy it wasn't it was not a good economy and the pandemic revealed in so many ways what was broken um and you know tenuous and um fragile about our economy so let's pick up the pieces and put them back together differently right make it a better more inclusive more uh resilient more just world that's that's what i'm thinking that's something we can sign up for so as stephen colbert says let's move some books at the deficit myth by dr stephanie kelton a new york times best seller um so please get your copy or get a copy for your friends and colleagues finally anything you want to uh sum up with well i think what stephanie's describing here is really about reclaiming democracy and bring the people's economy you know everybody wants you know good paying jobs clean air clean water clean environment question is how do you pay for it and all that and to me if you look back at the last 100 years in terms of major transformative you know socioeconomic uh improvements you know the civil rights movement the women's movement the environmental movement the labor movement none of this happened via what i would call today you know voting once every four years or you know using the comments section in in on social media it works by empowering people educating engaging in the democratic process not just once every four years and that involves organizing and mobilizing and educating your peers and your neighbors to empower people so that they feel and they understand that that better thing is within reach and it takes their participation and their action to get there uh and i think we're at a you know similar moment a turning point in u.s history and world history with this pandemic that we have you know all the trends are moving in the wrong direction and all the resilience problems are not getting addressed but we know that this is within reach so you know ask yourself what have i done for democracy lately other than the comments section and voting once every four years and if you haven't done enough you should so this is an open invitation to engage in these conversations beyond our circle of webinars and and friends and colleagues and really reach out into you know the the heart of the democratic process which is participating with others great thanks model thanks for your deep insights um and i'll just uh wrap up before turning over to nigel and saying thank you each of you for joining a very active chat and question box very thoughtful questions uh uh thanks dr stephanie kelton for um helping not only imagine the future but help influence the future through uh your advising of policy makers and writing and your latest book um thanks vodal for dr fato kaboob uh for leading the global institute of sustainable prosperity uh based at denison university in ohio um in the midwest um thanks amir khaleghi for bringing together the green jobs report again under the guidance of dr scott folweiler both of you at university of missouri kansas city and i'll just put in the health wealth earth equality trust as five pillars that we need to address not only of fixing covid and our economic situation but our climate challenges our injustices on race gender and inequality overall and building a world building a better world for the people for us and it's our money um so nigel i'll turn it over you for good news next steps and um our next dsgxs nigel is on you you can see stephanie's book there oops i'm sorry so that is stephanie's book i was just saying it's a very good read one of the things stephanie said i think very clearly jobs are not enough we've done this before and we know that the jobs that came back were nothing like as good as good as the ones that were lost we have another whole version that's beyond the current recession driven by the automation of almost everything which is something we need to be very cautious about looking ahead so i think this is very timely and important just to pick out a few of the other things as we went through that really struck me the point about we need to think in terms of how we budget for the use of our natural resources you know one thing that struck me is that we have focused you know the learning from all this is we have focused wrongly on the financial limits on government capacity and we haven't really thought enough at all about the planetary limits on our economic activity and all that's completely upside down and if only we can grasp that then there's actually huge opportunity in that and where people think there is pain there there will be the exact opposite the other thing i was going to draw out really in terms of where we go from this which is a constant theme through all of this discussion which is firstly the need to be open-minded to accept that there are things that were done in some way in the past which we don't need to do that anymore in the same way that you know we're no longer still putting clothes through a wrangle to to mangle to dry them the world has moved on and we need to do that with our thinking another constant theme here is the importance of thinking beyond the very short term whether it's in a company in the next annual budget or quarterly results or it's in a government in the next electoral cycle i have had keep having conversations with people that seem to be realizing that if there is a clarity of longer-term vision and a longer-term story and fidel said exactly a version of this then that gives something that people can anchor short-term action around and hopefully drive in a positive direction and then the last part of this is no we are dealing with complicated problems there is not going to be a kind of simple one-size-fits-all just push this button fix the problem solution so it is absolutely the world for systems thinking people and system thinking solutions i think we'll see much more of that in the time ahead so finally just to wrap up for me the this is also all about people and i think it's incredibly important that we you know we share these messages so please do share them with your friends post as paul said this will be available uh on youtube as a recording a little bit later on this evening and on the website cut up into segments so you can get to bits you may be particularly interested in tomorrow please subscribe on youtube and also just looking ahead in terms of future episodes if you visit esgx.org we have details of those in a fortnight's time the one which is coming up is all about the role of green banks and what they can do to help drive some of these very important changes uh we'll be mailing everybody with details of that over the coming days so from me thank you very much i'd like paul if you want to add anything else but i've really enjoyed the discussion i think it's been incredibly helpful so thank you all very much for being here great thanks nick gower our producer for bringing us all together and again dr stephanie kelton dr fradel kaboob dr scott fullweiler and amir leggy on behalf of nigel lake vsgx and myself paul herman we wish you a healthy and safe week we'll see you next time on esgx 英語 (自動生成) この動画ではチャットのリプレイを利用できません。 ESGX 25: Green Jobs Report - August 2020 With Stephanie Kelton 283 回視聴•2020/08/25 にライブ配信 29 0 共有 保存 ESGX チャンネル登録 Our monthly Green Jobs Report provides a regular update on how the ongoing health and economic environment is impacting the workplace and the role that green jobs and a green new deal can play in helping to rebuild stronger, more resilient, more inclusive economies. Our discussion explore a variety of themes: Are "greener" jobs growing more or shrinking less? Where are the best prospects for higher-paying jobs? What pilot programs, policies, and partnerships are possible? 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