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the economy is not recovering meanwhile the 600 top up in unemployment uh benefits has expired the ability of the government to backstop small business loans through the paycheck protection act that's expired the 1200 stimulus checks we got a one-off but there was promise that there would be more none of those things are happening i mean we have today about 40 million americans who um face the possibility of eviction we allowed people to not pay a mortgage payment for a period of time not pay rent but we didn't cancel those payments we just told people with respect to student loans and your rent and your mortgage we would give you four bearings in other words you can wait a little while but all those payments are backing up on you and the same is true of commercial real estate and other things so a lot of people owe a lot of money if congress doesn't provide the kind of fiscal support that this economy is going to need if we don't support incomes if we don't support jobs.
if we don't get a
full uh robust economic recovery
underway a financial crisis could well
trigger something
that puts us in a situation where we're
looking at unemployment levels and a
collapse in output that
starts to look a whole lot like the
experience of the 1930s.
well it's going
to come from the only place it can come
from
and it's really the place that all
government spending comes from
congress has the power of the purse so
what happened
is that congress got together in the
span of a pretty short
uh matter of time and passed four major
pieces of legislation the biggest of
which
was the cares act 2.2 trillion dollars
so to put it in the simplest possible
terms
the money came out of a keyboard at the
federal reserve
what's there you can't go below the
bottom of the purse
you don't think that's right no i know
that that's not right
the federal government can do what all
of the rest of us can't do
it can spend money it doesn't have.
and
so
the reality is the the federal
government is the issuer
of the us dollar and the rest of us are
merely users of the currency we have to
get it in order to spend it
the federal government can spend it into
existence have we done enough
no not not by a long shot and that's you
know
or that's what's so tragic in this
moment i think you got a lot of people
who recognize
that this economy is teetering on the
brink
that you've got real problems in the
months and possibly years ahead
if we don't if congress doesn't act with
further support.
i think the good news is that
politicians
have changed their minds and in a big
way and i think
enough of them recognize now that in
fact the deficit
is not the problem but that the deficit
itself is the solution to the problems
that we're facing and that there is no
other way out
i won't drop a name here because this
isn't public um
but i get phone calls from people and
some chair
powerful committees in the house and
they have said things to me like
you know i read your book and i used to
be a deficit hawk
and you've completely changed my mind so
we want to get you in
and we want to start these conversations
so for me that's
that's pretty good evidence that that
there's hope
for you know moving beyond the way we
used to approach the federal budgeting
process
and getting to the point where you know
congress begins to recognize
that not only can they operate their
budget differently from a household
but that we desperately need them to.
景気は回復していません その間、失業給付金は６０００ドルが上乗せされています 政府の中小企業向け融資を裏で支える能力は 給与保護法で失効しています 今日、約4000万人のアメリカ人が立ち退きの可能性に直面していますが、住宅ローンの支払いを一定期間滞納したり、家賃を払わなかったりすることはできましたが、それらの支払いを取り消したわけではありません。住宅ローンは4つのベアリングを提供します 言い換えれば、少しの間待つことができますが、これらの支払いはすべてあなたの上にバックアップされています 商業用不動産やその他のものにも同じことが言えます もし議会がこの経済が必要としているような 財政支援を提供しなければ 多くの人々が多額の借金をします
完全な経済回復が進まなければ、金融危機が引き金になって、失業率や生産高の崩壊が1930年代のような状況になる可能性があります。
それは、唯一の場所から来ることができます。政府の支出は、すべて議会の財布から来る場所です。 2兆ドルです。簡単に言えば、連邦準備銀行のキーボードから、お金が出てきました。それが何かというと、財布の底までは行けないということです。
現実には、連邦政府は米ドルの発行者であり、我々は通貨の使用者に過ぎないのです。連邦政府はそれを使うために通貨を手に入れなければなりません。
良いニュースは、政治家が考えを大きく変えたことです。彼らの多くが、実際には赤字が問題ではなく、赤字そのものが我々が直面している問題の解決策であり、他に出口はないということを認識していると思います。私は以前は赤字タカ派だったのですが、あなたは私の心を完全に変えてくれたので、あなたに参加してもらい、このような会話を始めたいと思っています。
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kelton：
the economy is not recovering meanwhile
the 600
top up in unemployment uh benefits has
expired
the ability of the government to
backstop
small business loans through the
paycheck protection act that's
expired the 1200 stimulus checks we got
a one-off
but there was promise that there would
be more none of those things are
happening i mean we have today
about 40 million americans who um
face the possibility of eviction we
allowed people to
not pay a mortgage payment for a period
of time not pay rent but we didn't
cancel those payments we just told
people with respect to student loans and
your rent and your mortgage
we would give you forbearance in other
words you can wait a little while but
all those payments are backing up on you
and the same is true of commercial real
estate and other things so a lot of
people owe a lot of money
if congress doesn't provide the kind of
fiscal support
that this economy is going to need if we
don't support incomes if we don't
support
jobs if we don't get a full uh
robust economic recovery underway a
financial crisis
could well trigger something that puts
us in a situation where we're looking at
unemployment levels and a collapse in
output
that starts to look a whole lot like the
experience of the 1930s
we were a discouraged people because we
were the first to lose our jobs when old
man depression came along and the last
to get them back
we struggled vainly to regain our
bearings while depression fear and
failure stalk the nation
tidings from the outside world reach the
farmer but no matter what news he has
received
it cannot be as harrowing as the story
he has to tell
straw where there should have been wheat
emptiness
where there was hope the great
depression
black and white photos and grainy old
film of
long lines of unemployed workers
decimated farmland and shantytowns
could give you the sense that that kind
of widespread economic calamity is a
thing of the past
that's what you might have thought until
you saw 2020.
the depression of the 1930s was caused
by
uh just a kind of explosion
starting with wall street an explosion
of debt that couldn't be repaid
and it affected almost
everybody by 1933 one out of four
working people have lost their jobs
there was
massive poverty franklin d roosevelt was
elected and took over in 1933
didn't really know what he was going to
do there was no blueprint
roosevelt tried everything without jobs
we had no money
and without money we could not purchase
food for the hungry mouths at home
our only hope lay in charity hunger
drove our people to the breadlines
anxiously we waited waited for some sign
of better days
then came the federal government's work
program one by one it took us out of the
bread line
it gave us a new chance to take a normal
place in the life of our community
it made us self-supporting it changed
the haggard hopeless faces of the bread
line
into faces filled with hope and
happiness for now we work again
america here is a record of it to judge
for yourself
city streets pounded by ever-increasing
traffic are modernized resurfaced
thousands of blocks which mean huge
savings in local tax money
vital to the communities which they
serve are the thousands of miles of
highways
constructed and improved by the works
program each of these projects has been
planned to meet a real need in the
community which it serves
to take care of the unemployed as well
as to confer real and lasting benefits
on the people of the united
states is the object of the wpa under
this program
work pays america
[Music]
most historians and most economic
historians conclude that
much of what he did was helpful but what
really
got us out of the great depression was
world war
ii because it required government
spending on such a massive level
and that was the only thing that was
uh almost inevitably going to get us out
of recession because you see people
didn't have any money they didn't have
enough money
to create the demand for all the goods
and services that the economy
would be capable of producing if
everybody was employed
thousands of young women are gaining
experience in power sewing
to meet demands occasioned by the war
others are being trained in clerical
work in photography
and in poster work during the training
period they also
do productive work for the armed
services for the red cross
and for selective service polls in many
cases they have released
men for active duty in the armed forces
are there any periods that you compare
to this one that you learn lessons from
well i think we draw from uh the early
1930s uh when there was militant
action on behalf of working people
across race
that made transformative change in
this condition of working people in
labor the
flint sit down strikers created a
standard of
auto work in this country that
eliminated poverty wages and
started to build a middle class i think
another touchstone that i've heard our
members talk about is
we have the capacity as a nation after
world war
ii to help europe rebuild we need to
draw on that same
capacity and scale to think about how to
build a new
america that includes everybody
undocumented immigrants
black americans asian pacific islanders
native americans and
white working poor people that have
always been excluded
this isn't the first time that
cooperatives um worker owned
cooperatives consumer cooperatives have
responded to a crisis in the lives of
americans i'm thinking of
um reconstruction era
depression era are there periods that
you look back to for a historic parallel
that that fits or
or has lessons to teach i think that
it's been really helpful
thinking about the history of racial
capitalism and anti-black racism
and and leaning on the wisdom and
organizing
from um from women of color from from
black
feminist uh leaders like fannie lou
hamer like ella baker
um who use cooperative models
um as the as a way to build wealth um
and
and just mechanisms for survivals you
know economic prosperity
in especially african-american
communities people's movements in
response to the great depression forced
the us government to act
and enact many of the reforms we think
of as part and parcel of american life
today
what could the government do in response
to our current crisis
again robert reich and stephanie kelton
have some answers
we don't know what would have happened
in the 1930s if it hadn't been for world
war ii
and you say rightly that a lot of what
we saw in terms of
um recovery came on the backs of the war
economy created in that time
massive spending is what a lot of people
are calling for right now
is that what you see as being the
primary thing needed
uh yes you need two things and there are
two levers
of macroeconomic policy one lever
is at the fed that's keeping interest
rates low
and jerome powell has said that's
exactly what he's going to do that's
fine
but that can't be the only lever keeping
the stock market going has
almost nothing to do with the actual
economy that most people live in
so you do need the other side of
economic policy the other lever
which is fiscal policy that is
congress and the president have got to
stimulate
the economy big time and the third third
thing you have to do is get some control
over this uh coronavirus
if you don't get some control of the
coronavirus
then items one and two don't really
count very much
we just heard robert reich describe a
whole lot of spending
um being required in this moment
where is that money gonna come from well
it's gonna come from the only place it
can come from
and it's really the place that all
government spending comes from
congress has the power of the purse so
what happened
is that congress got together in the
span of a pretty short
uh matter of time and passed four major
pieces of legislation the biggest of
which
was the cares act 2.2 trillion dollars
so to put it in the simplest possible
terms
the money came out of a keyboard at the
federal reserve
but the other thing that we're told all
the time is that the government is kind
of like a household and you really can't
spend more than you earn you look in
your pocketbook you see what's there
you can't go below the bottom of the
purse you don't think that's right
no i know that that's not right the
federal government can do what
all of the rest of us can't do it can
spend money it doesn't
have and so the reality is the the
federal government is the
issuer of the us dollar and the rest of
us
are merely users of the currency we have
to get it in order to spend it
the federal government can spend it into
existence have we done enough
no not not by a long shot and that's you
know
laura that's what's so tragic in this
moment i think you got a lot of people
who recognize that this economy
is teetering on the brink that you've
got real problems in the months and
possibly years ahead
if we don't if congress doesn't act with
further support
talk a bit about what it will take for
any of this to happen
you served in in government you know
it's not easy to make change
no it's not easy and actually washington
is almost the last place where change is
going to happen
uh because uh washington tends to
even with good people in washington uh
tends to reinforce
the status quo you need good people
outside washington
who are mobilized and organized and
energized uh to make the kind of changes
that are necessary
but that's where i'm optimistic i think
that people
understand that widening equality
stagnant wages for most people
uh that this concentration of wealth and
power
at the top is bad for our democracy it's
bad for the country
uh and rather than running around
screaming
uh what needs to happen is people need
to mobilize and organize and energize
everybody else to vote and uh
to be active politically and that's
really what i've
been trying to push more than at any
time in recent decades americans are
indeed mobilizing for economic justice
and equity and coming to one another's
aid at a community level
the pandemic economy has forced many to
recognize
that the people we rely on our essential
workers
have long been under compensated
unprotected
and downright exploited to speak about
how those essential workers
and businesses are responding i spoke
again with mary kay
henry and esteban kelly how do you
update the the sit-down strike of the
30s
to this moment and to the workers you
represent well we've been doing it we
think through the fight for 15 for the
past eight
years when fast food workers have
galvanized strikes
most recently on july 20th we
did a strike for black lives that was
cross movement
and so i think we need to combine
militant action
with mobilization across sector where we
unite with the racial justice movement
the immigrant movement the women's
movement
the lgbtq the climate movement
to create a united force for change
and then the third thing we need to do
is make a decision as a labor movement
that we
are going to rewrite the rules that have
been rigged against
workers being able to join together and
have the power
to bargain a better life and that's what
auto workers did
there was no law that protected gm ford
and chrysler workers
from making common cause with each other
their militancy
forced uh the companies to a joint table
and the democratic governor in michigan
decided
not to call off the call out the
national guard to suppress the strike
it has been done in other states and so
it does
also require us to open a front in
using our political strength to get uh
elected officials to stand with workers
as they challenge corporate power
a lot of white america is reeling in
this period
realizing oh government's not there for
me the social safety net's not there for
me
but a lot of people of color in this
country have been in that situation
before historically and in those moments
of crisis
have come up with strategies that are
serving you
well right now our members were some of
the first businesses to ramp up
the personal protective equipment some
of them actually
manufactured it for one another so um in
north carolina the carolina industrial
commons
retrofitted their factory their
warehouse which normally does textiles
and they moved into making gowns and
masks for hospital workers
and shipped them up to the bronx where
our largest member cooperative home care
associates
which does healthcare home healthcare
they were running short on equipment so
because they were all connected to our
membership network they were able to
to tap into the community to do the
sourcing
and fill in those gaps in the supply
chain i mean if you
are a worker in the united states you
are
in the best position possible if you
were inside of a worker-owned
cooperative bottom-up strategies of
mutual aid enough
of course we know how to snap into
formation for the
very immediate and acute problems and
crises and
that um that infrastructure always needs
partnership to scale and it's why we
form political coalitions
even just with the cares act we had a
political coalition on the hill
um and were able to advocate to make
sure that cooperative businesses
had access to the personal um the
payroll protection
program um to the economic injury and
disaster loans
that other but for our involvement would
have prohibited cooperative
involvement to that and and when i'm
saying that grassroots
efforts are not enough um it's why we're
ramping
up our legislative agenda it's why we're
working with city councils
um not just with progressive mayors but
but really with with local and regional
elected officials so what does the
future hold with a new administration on
the horizon and a whole lot of work to
do to get the economy and society we
imagine
ahead i ask our guests about their
vision for what's next on the long march
from a pandemic economy
to a democratic one we feel in many ways
sort of on the precipice of something as
we're speaking
we've seen a year of the worst we're
talking about
creating not just a return but something
new
how do you think about elections in this
context
we think elections matter for um making
a demand
on what we as working people and
communities
of all races uh have the right to expect
uh
in this nation we don't think the
election is the
only thing we think of it as a step in
how we are going to achieve the just
society that our members
organize around and bargain and stay in
the streets
demanding every day of our lives we
refuse to return
to thinking about the past as a measure
for what we should
expect in the present and because the
depth of the crisis
is so beyond anything anybody's ever
experienced we have to be bold and
transformative
in how we tackle the crisis for
everybody in this nation
and our unique contribution is going to
be
to make home care jobs the foundation of
the next
most inclusive most racially diverse
middle class that this nation has ever
seen
do you want to go back to quote unquote
normal how is normal for your members
oh give me a break laura you know that
we've had issues with normal for a long
time um
and and and i think that part of the
shift at least
from the social solidarity economy
movement and the cooperative
movement is that for too long we were we
were comfortable
adapting to our our marginal niche
within what normal used to be that is to
say we were like
yeah normal kind of is uh it's not so
good
we're gonna do something alternative
over here have fun with your normal
and for the last decade we have said
actually
normal is not survivable for our planet
for our communities
um and and we can't take it anymore and
it's not adequate for some people
to enjoy the um the liberation
that comes with um our models in an
alternative way
we're going for the mainstream um i
think that certainly
the leadership of senator bernie sanders
um has made that clearer um how
how mainstreamable um worker ownership
is cooperative economics um
and and just even ideas of the
solidarity economy that our
our communities can own um
our the assets public land industries
enterprises whether as a public commons
or as cooperatively owned
community-owned
membership-owned or worker-owned private
businesses which is what cooperatives
are
those things fit together really neatly
especially alongside
strong and robust unions where there is
worker voice
and worker power even when it needs to
be embedded in something like um
public institutions um universities
or or to the extent that we're gonna
have to live with private corporations
during the transition to a just
sustainable economy there's a lot of
repair that needs to happen to a country
founded on settler colonialism
chattel slavery um and stretching out
into an international
um empire um the war machine of the
united states
so examining all those relationships um
is
is incumbent on us and that's finally
happening not just in academia
not just in the front lines of social
movements
but everyday americans at their kitchen
table
are like huh white supremacy really is a
problem isn't it
and i think that that's what's going to
guide us toward um uh building
the um the new the new normal as a as a
mainstream and
not some return to uh so-called normalcy
i think the good news is that
politicians
have changed their minds and in a big
way and i think
enough of them recognize now that in
fact the deficit
is not the problem but that the deficit
itself is the solution to the problems
that we're facing and that there is no
other way out
i won't drop a name here because this
isn't public um
but i get phone calls from people and
some chair powerful committees
in the house and they have said things
to me like you know i read your book
and i used to be a deficit hawk and
you've completely changed my mind
so we want to get you in and we want to
start these conversations so for me
that's that's pretty good evidence that
the
that there's hope for you know moving
beyond
the way we used to approach the federal
budgeting process and
getting to the point where you know
congress begins to recognize that
um not only can they operate their
budget differently from a household
but that we desperately need them to i
think that we
are seeing and about to see uh
something that parallels the progressive
era
that occurred in the first part of the
20th century right after the
the gilded age of the late 19th century
we have a new gilded age now
uh with the same characteristics as the
first building age in terms of
widening inequality and poverty and
corruption
and bribery and all these other things
and people are
outraged.
and i would not be surprised
if the next 20 years were a period of
a fundamental social change toward
a democracy that works for most people
instead of just for a small number
and an economy that works for a large
number instead of a small number
i'm reminded of the words of the great
justice lewis brandeis
uh who said in the 1920s on the cusp of
the
first gilded age he said we have a
choice in this country
we can either have great wealth in the
hands of a few
or we can have a democracy but we can't
have both
and i think those words are equally
applicable
today for more on this episode and other
forward thinking content
and to tune into our podcast visit our
website at
lauraflanders.org and follow us on
social media
at the lf show you.
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