2021 Stephanie Kelton On Biden, Stimulus, And The Myth Of The Big Bad Deficit

2021/01/20
https://youtu.be/kxbgfUAko84 

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文字起こし the u.s is currently in what has been called an extreme economic crisis and yet it's been extremely difficult to get our lawmakers to provide the funds needed for a stable economy they continue to use scare tactics about deficit spending even as americans are being forced into homelessness through eviction suffering from hunger according to my guest today there's no reason to be afraid of investing in the american people through deficit spending stephanie kelton is a professor of economics and public policy at stony brook university and a leading expert on modern monetary theory a former chief economist on the u.s senate budget committee she served as an advisor to senator bernie sanders in 2016. she knows what she's talking about politico named her as one of the 50 people most influencing the policy debate in america and her most recent book right here the deficit myth modern monetary theory.

and the birth of the people's economy shatters the myths about deficits that have long hobbled us as a country and offers a revolution of thought upon which we can build a more resilient economy that can safeguard us in good times and in times of crisis stephanie kelton welcome to the show nice to be back with you thank you for having me i'm just so happy that you could be here and i'm so happy that um the ideas around modern monetary theory are getting out there uh congratulations on your new book the deficit myth for people who are new to mmt or modern monetary theory could you explain why is the fear and terror over running a federal deficit a wrong-minded approach to running the economy.

okay so i think the best place to start is with what the deficit is because you know the word itself carries this connotation that i think does so much of the work of damaging our thinking right you hear the word deficit and you sort of naturally think well there must be something wrong you know a deficit is not something you want to see if you were watching a football game over the weekend and you heard the announcer say you know if the chiefs are going to come back and win this game they're going to have to overcome a seven point deficit you know or something like that you know debt the word deficit to be a problem something to eliminate overcome right so what is this thing we call the government deficit what is it it is the difference between two numbers okay one of the numbers is how many dollars the government spends into the economy each year and the other number is how many dollars the government subtracts out of the economy mostly through taxation each year so when the government's budget is in deficit it means they're adding more dollars than they are subtracting away so you go wait a minute the government's adding more dollars to the economy than it is siphoning away doesn't that mean that there's some dollars going somewhere.

and the answer is yes their deficit is nothing more than a financial contribution they're making a deposit right into some other part of the economy so if you like their red ink becomes black ink on somebody else's ledger on someone else's balance sheet the question is you know for whom right because if once you understand the deficit as a financial contribution to some other part of our economy then you realize pretty quickly that hey wait a minute every deficit must be good for someone right the question is for whom so then we could talk about things like the republican tax cuts because clearly republicans understand that deficits are a way to deliver a financial windfall to parts of the economy to some people to corporations to people in the economy it's just that when republicans run deficits they like to run them and channel the windfall to the people who least need the help right the money goes who are already doing phenomenally well but make no mistake every deficit is good for someone um one of the the things that you point out in your book and you point out in your talks about modern monetary theory is that uh the the difference between a household budget and the federal budget is the fact that the federal government can print its own money can it's the one that issues money how does that make a difference well it's all the difference right if so the federal government as you say i never used the phrase printing money because that oh you're right i'm sorry i just did not do that but i didn't it just creates other problems because people hear it and then it triggers them in the way the word deficit does printing money is triggering because people automatically think you get hyperinflation so the government federal government is the issuer of the dollar in fact they have the sole legal authority given to it by the constitution in the constitution to create the currency to issue our currency.

so why why is that important why does that matter well if you and i could do what the federal government could do if businesses could do it heck if mayors and governors could do it then we would all just look after ourselves in the coronavirus pandemic we wouldn't have to worry if we lost a job and lost our wages we would just be like hey i'm a currency issuer i'll just fix it myself small businesses wouldn't be going out to take ppp loans they just take care of it themselves governors and mayors wouldn't be pleading with congress to help provide aid so they can keep essential services going if they could issue the currency but the reality is the rest of us are just users of the currency the federal government is fundamentally different as an issue of the currency they can do what the rest of us can't do they can commit to spending money they do not have and that's what congress did with the cares act right that 2.2 trillion dollar that first major piece of legislation that came uh through both the house and the senate and and was signed into law that 2.2 trillion was congress saying we're going to spend 2.2 trillion we didn't go out and find 2.2 trillion we didn't go out and raise taxes we didn't borrow the money we just have something called the power of the purse so we can commit to spending money we do not have because we issue it right we can issue it into existence uh you spoke about trump's tax cuts uh how it increased the federal deficit but somebody benefited benefited there now we also have the coronavirus and the economic meltdown of global proportions could you talk about the pickle that we find ourselves in where has trump left us i mean you know it's with the worst economic crisis since the great depression so we had obviously a a health crisis a pandemic that um created gave rise to an economic crisis but you know containing both was not well managed by this administration so we let the the pandemic rage out of control which then fueled the economic crisis and we didn't get a handle on the the coronavirus so we never really fully got a handle on the economy and you know we did things in fits and starts congress started off okay moving four pieces of legislation very quickly when coronavirus first hit that big one was the cares act we already talked about the house was ready to do much more giuliani you remember the heroes act the house came back in may just two months after passing the um cares act and the house was like we know we need to do more we know this economy is in bad shape we know we need more fiscal support congress has to act so they passed a hero's act that would have committed some 3 trillion additional dollars to supporting the economy but republicans in the senate were like no no no we're we've already done enough we're not interested in doing more so they waited and let the recovery begin to falter allowed unemployment why why i mean really why so i i think politics is probably the correct answer yes the deficit myth and concerns about you know adding further to the deficit those those concerns were raised and for for some lawmakers i think they really do believe that um but you know there was also the politics of involved with an election coming up with trying to figure out whether you wanted to help the other side notch a win so close to the election and all that so i mean a lot of things were going on in the background right um and also what was in the heroes act republicans are not interested in what they call a blue state bailout the the house wanted to provide a trillion dollars to help state and local governments shore up their budgets and republicans said we are not we are not getting money to state and local governments uh so that that in and of itself right killed any interest in uh in the heroes act but then they worked you know you had steve mnuchin treasury secretary in negotiations with nancy pelosi for a very long time back and forth trying to come up with some agreement you you had republicans asking for the liability shield democrats didn't want that in republicans didn't want state local so they never got there until right after the election we finally uh okay they finally came to agreement on a 900 billion dollar package that is too small doesn't have the state and local um and uh and partly it was concerned about the price tag you know they they had a bipartisan group working on this and everybody said we don't want to go over a trillion well i i haven't heard the deficit mentioned more than a handful of times in all four years of trump presidency mind you i hadn't heard the word insurrection mentioned in all eight years of obama's but alas here we are uh when barack obama was in office you gave him some ideas on how to meet the cri the crisis of his time here's a question has biden called you that's the and what ideas would you have for him in his first hundred days in office to meet the crisis at hand well i did serve you know i was one of eight people who served on the sanders biden unity task force as they were known there were i think six of these set up and i served uh along with uh sarah nelson who's the head of the right uh flight attendants association derek hamilton a fellow economist we three served uh on behalf of bernie representing sort of the the progressive agenda that um that he championed and that we felt was going to be um integral to laying a foundation for a sustainable and inclusive recovery and we would like to see this administration successful so we did work with members of the biden team we crafted recommendations for economic policy and also part of the democratic party platform i think you know some of the things that we um pushed hard for are actually in uh president-elect biden's latest proposal this 1.9 trillion that he uh revealed thursday of last week right and so raising the minimum wage that's hugely important lots of money you know hundreds of billions of dollars that are in one way or another related to dealing with the health pandemic itself right health care and health administration and money to roll out vaccinations and so forth um there are additional direct cash payments that are going to go out uh there's the unemployment pop up from the federal government additional to support that and extending that until march so i would have made it retroactive they didn't make it retroactive i would have made the direct payments bigger because i do believe that what voters heard and what they believe they were promised if georgia was delivered for the democrats was a two thousand dollar check and i i think i believe it's a mistake not to deliver on that and to go for 1400 and make the case that well actually if you add it to the 600 trump gave you it gets you to 2000. um but you know there's a lot of good stuff in there there's not enough money for state and local that should be bigger so what about uh striking uh debt student debt yeah so we'll see where he lands on this um you know i think that what what it sounds like is that he would prefer to see congress take action on this and to work it into a piece of legislation as opposed to doing what you know many different groups are pushing him to do which is to do something through executive but he did right he did extend uh the trump administration said to people with student loan debt hang on don't worry about repaying it right now so there is uh a deferral on those repayments and vice president elect president-elect biden is saying he's extending that he wants to extend that so you know it's not the same as cancellation we'll see where they come down he's sort of said ten thousand in cancellation done through congress others as you know senator warren um senator schumer have pushed him to do fifty thousand and to do it through executive uh action or you know through executive order so we'll see did you do you think that he is it sounds like he is at least open to a less conservative approach than president obama i think so i think so i think listen i mean we got the keystone pipeline uh announcement i think just this morning right that um i i think that there there are a lot of good signals being sent from you know the incoming administration when it comes to lessons learned and you know one of the things that i think that they're articulating is that they recognize that in many ways the failure to go big enough in the earliest part of the obama administration first term led to you know the loss of the house and then later um the senate that you have to deliver and you can't deliver kind of incremental um you know small improvements in people's lives that you really have to take advantage of the opportunity you have the house you have very narrowly the senate and that if you don't deliver really material improvements in people's lives so that they can actually say wow voting for democrats made a difference right i am better off in these ways fifty thousand dollars in my student loan debt is gone it's all maybe for some people it's going to be all gone you know um minimum wage is 15 bucks an hour for the first time in my life i can pay i can afford to cover my my bills and i have a little bit of money left to set aside at the end of the month or something you know people have to feel better off and i think that they understand that that's the challenge you've been talking about mmt and bringing it out into the open and it's becoming part of the dialogue at least on the progressive or activist side how do you suggest that progressives in the media discuss this so that we you know it took me a long time including reading the book and following your work to really get my head around the you know the difference uh between the modern theory and the standard theory do you have any talking points that we could use to like combat the idea that the deficit is a terrible thing how do we undo years of mental training from both parties i i saw that in one of your recent lectures you showed a humorous clip of presidents from reagan to obama and all kinds of news hosts of all different political stripes discussing the need to address the deficit even bernie sanders was the how are we going to pay you know they're all answering how are we going to pay for it question do you have any suggestions on how we can make this simple so that america can understand it oh boy do i do i ever um yeah i mean that's and that's what i do and i spend i'm i feel very fortunate in that um lawmakers have gotten interested in trying to find new ways to to dialogue about the deficit and to talk about the pay for question and i get an opportunity to spend a lot quite a lot of time sometimes with a large number of them and so i one of the things i do is try to help with talking points so the first rule is uh never vilify the deficit never do it don't point your finger at the other guy and say you increased the deficit when you were in office you piled on debt you did it don't do that because first when your guy gets in or gal the deficit is going to be there and the debt is in all likelihood going to increase so why do that just recognize when somebody comes at you with a question about adding to the deaths they say well what about you know democrats you want to spend all this additional money biden says we need money for the immediate relief but we're also going to need trillions down the road for recovery how about the deficit what about the deficit just come right back and first words out of your mouth should be let's just get one thing clear right every deficit is good for someone every deficit is good for someone never look back at the clinton years and point to the surplus as some sort of badge of honor where you say ah it was democrats who were the good stewards of the night the nation's finances not only did we balance the budget but we delivered the first surpluses in years and years so we are the real party of fiscal responsibility it was george w bush who came and pissed it all away with tax cuts and and wars and all that don't do that right but every deficit is good for someone don't strive for surpluses because you know what you're doing you're in an austerity frame when you do that when you pretend that when you when you make the argument that a surplus is better than a deficit you're you're doing austerity politics and you're setting yourself up to create budgets going forward that reduce the deficit no you don't want to force the economy to balance the budget you want to allow the budget to deliver a balanced economy and that balanced economy is one that doesn't have out-of-control inflation it has quality inflation rampant poverty right set objective goals say what kind of an economy do we want to create right what what would a good economy look like you're right unemployment inflation so low levels of inflation high or full employment dealing like an economy with gross inequities is not a balanced economy so dealing with the real deficits i have a chapter in the book chapter seven is called the deficits that matter so i run through our health care deficits our retirement deficits our infrastructure deficits our democracy deficit you know figure out what problems you want to tackle how ambitiously you can go after them and then budget your real resources the financial resources can always be made available the money comes with the votes the votes fund the spending so if you can find the votes instead of people saying well how are you going to pay for it where are you going to find the money that's not how it works congress has the power of the purse they don't go around looking for the money you go collect votes and if you can collect the votes for the tax cut if you can collect the votes for the infrastructure spending if you can collect the votes for the next relief package the money will go out that's the sure thing the money will be there it's what do you want to accomplish and can you get the votes to to for that agenda when it comes now let's talk i i'm really trying to understand more about the theory how does offshoring affect the economy given the understanding of mmt it seems like if we are um issuing the currency it goes into the um general economy and then very rich people take a lot of it out of circulation and put it you know in the bahamas that seems like it is problematic yeah i mean well here's the thing right if you want a healthy full employment economy then there has to be enough demand for everything that our economy wants to produce in other words the businesses that produce goods and services have to have customers and they have to have enough customers with money to spend to buy the output so that they aren't laying off workers because if they're not swamped with customers i don't need the extra busboy i don't need the cashier i can i can reduce staff right i could even go offshore as you know you're asking about the point is if people are saving instead of spending every dollar that is saved and not spent is a dollar that can't be captured by some business that's trying to make revenue and turn a profit and keep employees you know uh on staff so the grosser the inequities the harder it is to maintain a full employment economy that makes a stronger case for government to come in and provide support through deficits to back fill that lost demand but far better to deal with the inequities if businesses are producing offshore are there benefits to consumers sure in the form of lower prices if you can you know import things more cheaply because they're being produced in china and other countries there is a clear benefit to a consumer when they have access to cheaper goods and services but they're also costs in the sense that if the company goes elsewhere and hires cheap labor around the world then somebody in michigan is losing their job right somebody in pennsylvania is losing their jobs so you know the offshoring hollows out communities it takes good higher paying jobs uh sends them abroad where they can chase low wages eva avoid environmental regulations and all the rest of it so and what of what of the question of of billionaires or millionaires taking their money and hiding it in foreign bank accounts and basically taking it out of circulation okay so i mean there are a few ways that's the one i couldn't answer i was like looking for this answer and i was like i gotta ask her because i don't i can't the problem is from my perspective the problem starts at the beginning it starts with why do they have so much right why do they have billions and billions of dollars that they can use these um tax shelters around the world to put and so we get obsessed with taxing the money with finding it and taxing it and i think you know bob reich the former uh labor secretary under bill clinton you know he's got a book uh called saving capitalism and in that book he argues and elsewhere um that what we need to do is spend a whole lot more time focusing on pre-distribution we tend to get really wrapped up in this idea of redistributing income and wealth right robin hood so the very wealthy have all this money and our job is to track it down find the tax shelters and go after it and and tax the money okay that's one way to deal with uh things but but bob's point the point i'm trying to make is that pre-distribution is a way to get at the source of the problem so how is it that they're ending up with it all in the first place right it's through the tax laws that are written it's through trade laws it's through labor laws it's through a lack of antitrust enforcement it's all of those things that need to be brought to bear unions stronger unions right so there isn't just one way to fix this problem but um you know a global crackdown if we could get to that point where nations are united in an effort to you know um stamp out these tax havens and to you know make it impossible for people to find places to shelter income that would be helpful as well that's one of the kinds of things that people like gabrielle um zuckman and and thomas picketty and others are you know have proposed some sort of a a global unified effort to address these sorts of problems stephanie what you're seeing what what mmt seems to be suggesting to me is that there's really no reason other than political will which is a nice way of saying greed selfishness inhumanity lack of caring no real reason other than political will that we haven't cured hunger stem the environmental catastrophe and some of these other social ills once people start understanding mmt don't you think that there must be some kind of reckoning that will occur this deficit thing gave everyone an excuse for austerity yeah i mean i hope i hope so you know this book is written at least this is what i hoped would come of this book to sort of level the playing field so that ordinary people can be empowered to push back against these myths these narratives these lies in many cases that they are told the excuses that they're given for why we can't eliminate poverty why we can't end homelessness the homelessness why we can't have true full employment you know all of these sort of things and people say well look i'd love to be able to do it but god we got this you know 27 trillion dollar debt and we got three trillion dollar deficits and we're running up the credit card and we're running out of money and all those sort of things and at least then we could have an improved policy debate if everyone understood what only a handful of people understand but don't acknowledge publicly which is the federal government can afford to buy whatever is available and for sale in its own currency including all idle unemployed labor so if everyone started from that premise with the same recognition then the debate would shift and the debate would then have to be about our priorities right it can't be that that's unattainable unaffordable it's wait you want that but you also want these other 10 things and we you know just because the money can always be there doesn't mean that you can spend infinite amounts of money there are limits right and so that puts us to the inflation constraint and the real barrier to public spending is the availability of the real resources and so you do a budget does force you to to budget right your resources to prioritize so you can't accomplish everything in one fell swoop you have to prioritize um but it would be in a very different place right now we have a lot of idle workers due to the pandemic that seems to open up a big opportunity perhaps a jobs program a federal jobs program um do you know if joe biden has any leanings in that way is that something we might see and would that be uh a good way to to to to move forward well i think it's a good way to move forward i think it is a good policy to be in place at all times it's not a crisis policy at least it shouldn't be it would have been terrific frankly if we had something like a job guarantee in place before coronavirus hit right because then instead of millions and millions of people losing their job and becoming unemployed there would be a program in place where people could transition into different kinds of employment people could have been trained to do contact tracing they could have been trained to deliver meals and medicines and do well checks and a whole variety of things while keeping them safe you know in a pandemic a lot of people might have been paid simply to stay home and help us flatten the curve but the point is that is a pretty ambitious uh shift in the way that we deal with unemployment because you know for for the incoming president to say uh what i'm going to fight for or advocate is is a federal job program that ensures that anyone who wants to work and can't find a job anywhere else in the economy can always have one that's big stuff that's fdr that's second bill of rights kind of that's real reform right i had a conversation last week like joe biden is old he's already been the vice president he already has money go for broke buddy that's the you know you know what they tend to do and i and i mean a lot of uh well i i i won't say more what what often happens so more infrastructure becomes your job program right so when people say we're going to create millions of good paying jobs and so forth it's almost always the case that they say it's going to happen on as part of an infrastructure program so you know that will for sure create millions of good-paying jobs if you can roll out a couple of trillion dollars in climate and infrastructure and then he also wants to do education and care work so there's a lot there that will help this uh economy recover and restore jobs but we will never get to genuine full employment without you know a stronger commitment to guarantee jobs for those who inevitably get left behind we are speaking with stephanie kelton the author of this fine book that i suggest everyone go and get so that we can start fighting against this definite deficit myth with knowledge uh the deficit myth modern monetary theory and the birth of the people's economy the last chapter in your book is called building an economy for the people what does an economy for the people look like and what does mmt suggest uh that it would be very possible for us to do so i love that you put it in that way because um you know mmt doesn't tell us exactly what we should do mmt helps to show us what we can do and when i talk about a people's economy i mean i'm not the people i'm a person right so i have my own preferences when it comes to you know prioritizing um government spending what programs would i like to see what would i like to see addressed first and that sort of thing but for me you know the idea of a people's economy is just that it's about the will of the people and we know already because polls are out there we know that there's overwhelming support and bipartisan support in this country for things like single-payer health care for medicare for all some sort of health care uh guaranteed to everyone we know that there's support for things like canceling student loan debt making public colleges and universities tuition-free raising the minimum wage and on and on we know what's popular we know what the people support so you know in my mind the book is about helping to lay out a blueprint for the way the monetary system works the mechanics of government finance kick away um you know all of these myths that have been used as barriers to entry as obstacles to getting better public policy corrupting the debate bogging us down and things that don't matter um and and drawing our attention away from the things that do matter and the problems that we could be solving and we could have salt climate and all of the rest so um you know for me i i put climate right at the top of the list and so many other problems can be addressed through a bold ambitious large-scale climate um program you can do inequality you can do social justice you can deal with um you know racial justice you can incorporate so much into a a strong comprehensive climate program that you know if i had to start somewhere that's certainly where i would start stephanie kelton professor of economics and public policy it's stony brook leading expert on modern monetary theory author of the most recent book the deficit myth monetary modern monetary theory and the birth of the people's economy i really appreciate you coming on this program thank you so much for the work that you're doing and i hope you'll join us again thank you so much for having me you're watching act tv i'm juliana forlano don't forget to subscribe to our channel which is what i say all the time because we bring you people like stephanie calton uh so that we can all sort of broaden our minds broaden our ability to combat the myths of austerity like the deficit myth i'm juliana forlano thanks for watching was there anything you wanted to say that we didn't get a chance to say no not no i've been talking a lot about the biden uh you know 1.9 trillion the thing about the 1.9 that's so funny to me and people aren't making that much of it i i think it's so ironic is that the trump tax cuts are estimated by cbo to cost 1.9 trillion so it's exactly the same number only for 1.9 trillion you know with the trump tax cuts most people got a t-shirt that said you know by 1.9 train all i got was this lousy t-shirt and with this 1.9 trillion you know most americans are going to see 1200 dollar checks and millions of people are going to see a bump up in their unemployment and they're going to see you know this and that the other so um anyway every deficit is good for someone this this new deficit is is going to do a lot more good than than trump did with his so do you mind if i clip what you just said and put it into the interview oh no not at all oh great i love it.

英語 (自動生成) #DoMoreThanWatch Stephanie Kelton On Biden, Stimulus, And The Myth Of The Big Bad Deficit 1,116 回視聴•2021/01/20 159 2 共有 保存 act.tv チャンネル登録者数 4.68万人 チャンネル登録 Follow on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/actdottv Julianna welcomes Stephanie Kelton, Professor of Economics and Public Policy at Stony Brook University, to discuss how the U.S. is currently in one of the worst economic crises we’ve seen in a while... and yet, it’s like pulling teeth to get our lawmakers to provide the funds we need to stay alive. They continue to use scare tactics about deficit spending, even as Americans are being evicted and going hungry. According to Stephanie, there’s no reason to be afraid of investing in the American people through deficit spending. So how should President-elect Joe Biden use that approach to create the best response to the coronavirus crisis? Stephanie is a Professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University. She is a leading expert on Modern Monetary Theory and a former chief economist on the U.S. Senate Budget Committee and advisor to Senator Bernie Sanders in 2016. She was named by Politico as one of the fifty people most influencing the policy debate in America. She’s the author of The Deficit Myth: Modern Monetary Theory and the Birth of the People’s Economy. For info on Stephanie go to: hhttps://stephaniekelton.com/ and follow her on Twitter at https://twitter.com/StephanieKelton And buy her book, The Deficit Myth: Modern Monetary Theory and the Birth of the People’s Economy, at: https://www.amazon.com/Deficit-Myth-M... For more Julianna, follow her on Twitter at https://twitter.com/juliannaforlano and @juliannaforlano on Instagram and Facebook! ——— act.tv is a progressive media company specializing in next generation live streaming and digital strategy. Our YouTube channel focuses on interviews with noted progressive voices, animated explainers, livestreams from protests around the country, and original political commentary. Main site: http://act.tv Facebook: http://facebook.com/actdottv Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/actdottv Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/actdottv YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/actdottv @act.tv #DoMoreThanWatch 

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