Episode 72 – Nationalizing Payroll and The Right to a Job With Pavlina Tcherneva – Real Progressives
2020/06/13
参考
Isabelle Ferreras
2020/05/20 — Bard Professor Pavlina Tcherneva. ... Dominique Méda, Université Paris Dauphine; Isabelle Ferreras, University of Louvain; Lisa ...
The latest Tweets from Isabelle Ferreras (@ Ferreras_Isa). Professor | Senior ... Ferreras Retweeted. Pavlina R Tcherneva @ptcherneva Feb 11.
so with that welcome thank
you so much for joining me today
hi Steve thank you for having me so let
me ask you a question you've got this
upcoming book the case for a job
guarantee I'm very excited about it I
have it pre-ordered tell me what's this
book all about well the book really is
hopefully a call to rethink our most
basic maybe uncritical assumption that
unemployment isn't avoidable and that
there's very little that we can do about
it I am hoping that it's a primer on the
job guarantee proposal it attempts to
document all the benefits of this
proposal but what I'm really hoping with
the book is
to raise this question of why have we
accepted this is such a normal situation
and we do it on multiple levels I think
just even if you ask the layperson if
you were to ask them about you know
unemployment they'll say yeah well you
know it's normal it's part of life not
much you could do about it the market is
the market and you know competition and
you're gonna get a bunch of narratives
about unemployment some folks will even
go as far as to say well you know it's
personal responsibility you've heard
those conversations oh yeah I think I
would like very much to shake that
conversation even at the very just basic
level as we just talk to our fellow
citizens but very importantly I also
wanted to expose a major failure in my
own profession in economics and that is
that it in fact has validated the
existence of an employment that the way
we structure our thinking about the
economy about markets about their
behavior within economics is around this
concept of the natural rate of
unemployment.
and I think this is just a
profound failure just at the theoretical
level at the policy level obviously at
the moral level and we even design
policies around the concept of a natural
rate of unemployment and that wasn't
always the case this is quite a bit of a
neoliberal phenomena the natural rate of
unemployment is not a new concept it
dates back since the late 1800s if you
will you know since the birth of
capitalism but we've gone through these
ups and downs at least in theory and we
certainly had a time in the immediate
post-war era when people didn't talk
about natural rate of unemployment and
very few people you know Hayek Friedman
would pay lip service to some of these
ideas but no self-respecting economist
would say it's normal to have
you know millions of people out of work
but then in the 50s and the 60s slowly
you know the profession started coming
up with this concept especially the high
road and on accelerating inflation rate
of unemployment and basically
formalizing this notion that as
economists and as policy people we have
to choose between two evils either we
have people without jobs are we gonna
have inflation and that's a false choice
and I think in part is because we
haven't thought about you know policy
proposals to replace this broken system
of maintaining really keeping
permanently people out of work even in
the best of time so with this book I am
also trying to interrogate that question
and say let's envision a world and let's
envision a policy that actually attempts
to guarantee jobs for all that's
absolutely fantastic and I feel very
lucky to be on the waiting list here for
the release of this book when are we
expecting it to come out the official
release date is June 26 this year 2020
okay very good
timely very timely.
in fact I want to
kind of set the stage I wanted to give
you an opportunity to talk about the
book but I really want to jump into the
meat of why I have you on here today
since Donald Trump started running the
very first cycle before he had ever even
taken office the resistance had begun
and the resistance was really ramping up
dare I say a propaganda campaign not to
say the Donald Trump is in any way shape
or form good but they had already ramped
up this what I would call Trump
derangement syndrome almost to the point
where people weren't even willing to
talk about policy the only thing they
wanted to hear is not Trump and so we've
got this moment here where millions upon
millions upon millions of people are
without work and the same people that
were busy resisting Trump never listened
to any of the alternatives such as a
federal job guarantee they're not
hearing things such as nationalizing
payroll
they're not hearing any of the fiscal
plans that mm tears have been talking
about long before we ever had a pandemic
but here we are now in one of the most
unbelievably frightening moments in our
nation's history
we've got police violence we've got
riots we've got folks that are finally
standing up and saying no more but we've
got millions of people without work and
millions and millions of those jobs are
never coming back talk to me a little
bit about the current environment that
you're in as you're trying to advance
these ideas these very necessary ideas
but in a world where the topic isn't
this even though it's happening right
now the topic is always centered around
Donald Trump whether it be taking
everyone's focus off of green New Deal
and talking about impeachment it's never
ever ever on these policy space so to be
able to build that kind of movement you
got to have almost single focus driven
people pushing and pushing and pushing
building that momentum and it just
hasn't happened and here we are what has
been your experience with that
well the way I think about this is as a
basically Titanic crashing into you know
the iceberg you see it you really can't
reverse course you can't you know slow
it down and so the system is essentially
it sort of breaking at the seams what is
happening now is not a product of one
police brutality whether it is kovat you
know all of the other problems that we
see in the world today I really just the
tip of the iceberg you know we have had
for so long policies that have stretched
families communities that have used
racism and sexism to create social
polarization its manifests in economic
polarization I mean one thing is
connected to another and people are
understandably angry there are many who
are out of work
that adds another layer of destitution
that we have not experienced in a very
long time certainly not since the Great
Depression and whether we go through
such a dramatic period of economic
devastation depends very much on what we
do now and so I think what you say is
correct people are angry and they direct
their anger at leadership we certainly
have good reason to be angry at a
president who incites violence but
you're correct to say that we've got to
be able to offer something new something
that is meaningful that provides
structural change and that's where the
conversation needs to go in terms of
rethinking this post covet world right
you hear these conversations in the
articles you know what would the world
look like after kovat and so I think
it's really important to raise this
question and I'm glad to see it from
different corners but we also have to
have something specific to offer that is
different from the patchwork of weak
policies we had in the post-war era that
were systematically weakened further in
the post Reagan era and that created the
precarity so just to give you some
examples I know you know these numbers
and you've gone over there many times on
your show but you know half of Americans
about 44% of Americans earn less than
$18,000 you know that is the median
income 44% so we are really looking at
folks who can barely make ends meet you
cannot build an economy on such
precarious economic conditions and then
when you look at who has lost jobs you
know we say lastin first-out this is
kind of insane a labor economist use to
say that there are certain folks who are
always the last ones to catch the train
up the expansion and get some employment
opportunities but as soon as there's a
hiccup as soon as there is a downturn
that the first ones to lose their jobs.
they tend to be folks with low-wage
folks and now what is happening in this
pandemic we're noticing
40% of job losses are concentrated
incomes below 40,000 dollars right 40%
and then you know 20% of job losses are
between 40,000 and a hundred thousand
and then there is you know another 13 or
12 or 13 percent above hundred thousand
so know the pain is not shared equally
and the pain is born in these structural
ways where we are attempting to build an
economy on the backs of working families
that earn despicably low wages and then
when we have an extraordinary crisis
like this of course they're the first
ones to lose their jobs at the same time
we painfully you know realize how
dependent we are on those folks to do
some very basic work we call them now
essential workers but you know we under
pay them they work in terrible
conditions they are the ones that die in
the meat packing industries in order to
feed the rest of us that is such a
fundamentally broken system it cannot
continue and what we need to I think
arrive at as a moment of reckoning I
certainly hope of the sort that we had
during the New Deal when you know FDR
and his team put in place what were at
the time radical policy proposals do you
imagine you know elderly folks without
Social Security 0 imagine that world of
very high elderly poverty rate so what
we need to do is do something like that
going forward we know that FDR didn't
really complete the mission we know he
had economic Bill of Rights and the
first of those was the right to a job to
everyone at all times not just in a
Great Depression not in a kovat in a
good time if somebody needs work that's
what we need to provide decent not
poverty paying work so we do have a lot
of work to do and I'm hoping that this
is the sort of moment of reckoning to
put in place these policies but what
I've been doing more recently and my
writing is not just talk about the job
guarantee but again challenge us to
think about unemployment as something
that's not really natural but it's a
policy choice and you know when we talk
about initializing payroll
various other policies there are just
different ways to respond to covet
without sacrificing people's employment
I really appreciate that you know I want
to throw a curveball into this a little
bit.
I had an opportunity to interview
Eric Vaughn and Patrick LaBelle and Bill
Black on the thirty thirty anniversary
of the Keating five and the devastation
and destruction brought on by the con so
to speak and the fraud it has been going
on since redlining on through the 70s
and 80s into the savings and loan crisis
into the countrywide and the ending of
glass-steagall and here we are even now
in this moment suffering from the
mortgage-backed security breakdown and
the student debt crisis all of this
stuff is right there is a tsunami
waiting to crash down on top of all
those conditions you had just laid
forward and this system is so broken and
so few are benefiting from it and so
many are really tragically devastated I
don't know that it's responsible for us
to have anything else on our minds at
this point given how devastating the
next wave of this comes through and so
as I look at what you're proposing and I
look at nationalizing payroll a concept
of it really resonated with me because
you think about how many people lost
their homes over overinflated
evaluations of their property and
fraudulent loans you name it and they
lost everything
suicides through the roof families
splitting apart like crazy this job
guarantee is something to me and the
just transition we talked about with the
green New Deal and other things these
are not just neat ideas who you know hey
this is a way to transition I'm looking
back and I'm saying how many people
really truly died do we know the body
count do we understand the causation and
do we understand what this would have
prevented had we done these things in
the past now we're right in the middle
of it and we still got someone like
Mitch McConnell saying he would rather
the states file bankruptcy
see so they can loot the pension funds
then actually step in and restructure
this because somebody's making out
somebody is winning here and it ain't us
it's so much bigger than that and these
are just but small token things to help
keep society on Yoon's basically just to
keep us alive this is bigger than this
is it not yeah no absolutely I think
that one way or another something will
happen and the question is how is the
system gonna change is it going to move
towards more authoritarian reactionary
kind of policies or are we gonna truly
democratize the system so all of these
things that you're pointing out all
right this cancer that plagues our
economy.
and which demonstrate that the
economy works for a handful you know
very few people and so you're talking
about how the mortgage crisis devastated
communities but we're gonna see in other
ways in which our communities are gonna
be devastated you know states are going
bankrupt left and right which means that
our schools are gonna suffer we're gonna
see teachers being fired we already seen
community colleges closing down campuses
are you gonna probably see failed
universities imagine you know if our
education system is decimated and then
the basic public services that states
are supposed to serve are also a
compromised so with every crisis we're
outraged and it's amazing how much more
pain folks are able to endure but that
pain is really manifested through
exactly the deaths of despair don't
you're pointing out so you know if this
is the plan for the economy's to kill
off you know people who are unable to
make it then it's not a very good plan
but we know that all of this brings
enormous instability political economic
so we need to make significant reforms
and they have to be from the ground up
and as I say everything is connected to
everything you know what is the famous
quote of FDR you know people who are
hungry and out of a job the stuff of
which dictatorships are made and so for
me this is the laser focus of my work
that work good work decent work
well-paid where it must be secured for
all at all times
irrespective who you are what your
no circumstances are if you want a job
that has to be guaranteed because a
person who has income will not just be
able to pay their bills and send their
kids to school and be a good member in
the community but it ripples through the
economy you know the fact that we have
this stability security that we can use
this manpower to restore our cities and
public needs that have been neglected so
the job guarantee is that piece really
that focuses on empowering folks to do
good work the public purpose has to be
rehabilitated so that we can make the
investments whether it's the green
investments whether it is you know
cleaning up the devastation from
pollution and providing you know good
care services for elderly for our
children there's just so much to do we
can't even enumerator love it but how to
think about policy today what is
striking to me is that we have once
again failed in multiple fronts
you know our European counterparts have
passed much more sensible measures.
they
will still have to deal with the fallout
of unemployment but they're not looking
at the kind of rates that we're looking
at and so just to give you an example
Denmark the UK Germany they have various
ways in which they guarantee payroll
governments passed budgets which are
strictly allocated to keeping people in
their jobs and subsidizing private
companies so that they don't lay off
workers so as an example you know
Denmark is effectively paying
everybody's wage or about 80 percent of
everybody's wage for three months they
put in place stricter social distancing
measures to tame the virus to create a
bit more certainty in people and also
they covered bills and wages what we did
we just surrendered to the inevitability
of unemployment we just said well you
know it's gonna be a natural artifact
the shocked people will lose jobs so
here's some unemployment insurance let's
make it a little more generous but we've
left them jobless without any guarantee
that a good job is around the corner
when the pandemic is under control
and so we have trapped ourselves into
this catch-22 situation because you know
in my work I talked about how
unemployment perpetuates like a disease
like an epidemic it doesn't just affect
the community it affects neighboring
communities when they lose their income
and they lose their businesses and mom
and pop shops are shut er down and then
that causes the destitution desperation
and families and it's not just the
unemployed and you know the opioid
epidemic is connected to this and
children do more poorly it's a malaise
and distress that we don't have to
endure we can simply say hey we're going
to protect your jobs we understand that
it will be a still a shock to the system
because folks will be more cautious
returning to movies to restaurants there
will be some unemployment it doesn't
have to be double digits and then we
will still be able to do direct
employment guarantee employment but deal
with more reasonable numbers it brings
me to a thought here I saw Stephanie I
saw yourself literally every mm tear
worth their salt was talking about write
checks write really big checks let's get
this economy going let's get money in
people's hands you had Rohan and
Rasheeda to leave with the boost yet
others talking about emergency pandemic
payments to families and so forth and
quite frankly they never really
transpired at least not yet anyway and
you've got the Paycheck Protection Act
that is being pushed I believe by from
illage aya Paul and others and you've
seen that impact like the airline
industry as well where they have been
able to pass one bill that maybe
actually helped labor but that said the
idea of a basic income in the midst of
this was more like crisis payments let's
get through this Atal but people were
mistakingly calling it a ubi
even Alexandria Casa Cortez went out
telling people it was a ubi so the ubi
side
the world kind of got an idea that this
was the right answer but the MMT
perspective is a little bit different
and I was wondering given the fact that
so often the job guarantee and ubi
rightly or wrongly or often at odds with
each other and tied against each other
can you explain the difference between
the crisis payments mmm tears we're
talking about through this Kevin 19
process and simultaneously nationalizing
payroll and the job guarantee I know
it's a lot but those three things seem
to be intertwined at various levels yeah
I mean I think the very first thing that
we needed to do is obviously protect
jobs because this was in a demand-side
shock people didn't suddenly stop going
to the restaurants because they lost
jobs it's that they were asked not to go
right so we actually asked people to
stop working like that was really the
issue we haven't to stop producing to
stop going to their establishments
except for the essential part of
production so this was you know largely
a supply shock and what we needed to do
is just weather the storm by keeping
people in jobs.
but we know that in the
United States our labor market is so
weak by comparison to our European
counterparts and we actually lack basic
institutions and safety nets a lot of
people work just precarious and stable
jobs you know all the hours the uber
ization of jobs it's much stronger here
in the United States so we do have a lot
of self-employed folks and they could
have also benefited from the government
paying their payroll but then there are
folks the gig worker the freelance
worker who have occasional work so they
will need some sort of income support so
absolutely you know you need to make
sure that there is emergency income
support for those people because they
have not benefited from labor contracts
from stable employment from you know
benefits like hazard pay or paid leave I
mean they're just far too many people
who didn't have those institutions to
protect them so I would have done it you
know I would have done the protections
for firms through the Employment
Guarantee I would have done the cash
income support through these various
measures of expanding eligibility as we
attempted to do for unemployment
insurance and making it
more generous for those who are in
through the cracks but also start
planning now for the job guarantee
tomorrow and even in the midst of the
pandemic we needed to mobilize and
mobilize to create safety equipment to
create masks to make sure that our food
production system is done under safer
conditions which may mean more workers
right it may mean more space may mean a
little bit more precautions like
sanitation workers that may need to be
hired to clean up establishments that
wouldn't normally have an army of
sanitation workers so you see we need
work done even in the midst of a crisis
in order to protect people so no doubt
unemployment will be one of the things
that will happen because of the
reduction in overall business activity
but if we approach this issue with the
idea of protecting jobs protecting
people in precarious jobs and creating
jobs tomorrow we would be so much better
prepared in going forward ubi they have
gotten a little bit of a boost through
this crisis mode but I don't think this
moment is really a illustration why we
meet to move to a ubi world like what is
that post work world gonna look like if
40% of the labor market doesn't have
employment 30% doesn't have jobs like
that's not a ubi world I think anyone of
us likes and as I keep saying in my work
work is more than just the lack of
income work is about validation being
part of a community being recognized
about doing something you enjoy that you
know people appreciate the fruits of
your labor we are not just gonna get
income and then somehow self-organized a
self-determined when we live in places
where slumlords
you know charge high rents or when we
don't have access to loans and local
banks there are so many other various
ways in which folks are marginalised
that income cannot really empower them
in ways that I think the ubi is
suggesting so you know what we need
obviously is some sort of support for
people who can work want to work and so
for people who cannot work for whatever
reason so you know as you know it for me
the ubi the way I see
you know generous Social Security early
retirement generous Pell grants pre
education like that to me is very
sensible ubi
kind of support and it's more of basic
services I suppose and provisioning of
essential public goods that's fantastic
I like the way you said that I sit back
and I think to myself you know so many
people are living in fear right now as
they speak of the job loss and I talked
to people on a daily basis who are sick
ready to go to the doctor for fear of
losing everything because of a bill that
comes through terrified of bankruptcy
terrified of student loans you know even
though they're in forbearance this is
not a gift as we've learned this is
interest piling up in places.
there are
all kinds of shenanigans going on it do
not benefit the people and I look at
this and I say to myself the Bernie
Sanders movement was such a powerful
force outside of Bernie just the
multi-racial multi-gender
intersectionality that provided us a
full-blown look-see at what a new
tomorrow might be and it kept reminding
me of one of the things that I love the
most about the job guarantee and that is
that with the job guarantee people
oftentimes underestimate the power of
revitalizing democracy because if you're
administering this at the local level
that means that regular people are gonna
want to be involved in the production of
what jobs are going to be funded and how
its administered so now all of a sudden
all those people that wanted to reform
the Democratic Party suddenly have a
vehicle at the local grassroots level to
really enter into the political game and
take over their local party chapters and
so forth get into elected offices and
really fundamentally change the way
politics works I see the job guarantee
as a Trojan horse to revitalize
democracy what are your thoughts on that
I mean I would hope that it's a welcomed
structural change but I see what you're
saying essentially that the way policy
structured is such that regular folks
don't have a voice and they don't really
have the means to self-determine so in a
way it's absolutely correct if you
create first they guarantee the promise
that if somebody needs work that will be
provided that in itself is quite
empowering but also if that is as I have
and others have proposed in work that
rehabilitate our neglected communities
and provides care for people who are
really struggling that internet itself
is also an enormous transformative
change now to be able to participate
meaningfully in the local work people
try to do this on volunteer basis but
you know that that is sort of under
duress there are many people who are
just juggling many jobs and they can't
even enjoy their community right so I
think that we can make our communities
better in many other ways you know we
can enhance the arts we can add other
things that our quality of life
enhancements and so the job community
has these multiple ways in which we
improve people's lives from
participation to public goods
provisioning to rehabilitating
communities to creating some basic
economic security and from there I think
it does have the possibility to tip the
scale of what we value because you know
in the current paradigm unless it is
some sort of work that generates
commercial return it's undervalued and
yet most of the work that is important
to us like education like our health
care is in fact work that is not
produced for commercial return or at
least it shouldn't be no matter how much
we try to make it produce a commercial
return so the true essentials of life
I'm not profit generating they are
because we believe in providing the good
life for individuals and for their
communities so I think it does have this
you know potential to democratize our
thinking about what
work we value who we value how they
should be paid that you know no one no
matter where they come from should work
and earn poverty wages and establish a
basic standard decent standard that also
values public service work so yeah
I think it has significant mobilizing
potential
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waste of our time
let me ask you another question
obviously the neoliberal Silicon Valley
gig economy that has kind of erupted
seems to be kind of on life-support as
well in different ways but that said a
lot of the progressive movement has
capitulated to this concept like there
is no other alternative which seems to
be the go-to move for a lot of our folks
is that as soon as something comes up we
feel like there's no alternative that's
it in stone we can't move it we can't
change it we're done and then we do the
give up strategy and what I'm wondering
is how does the job guarantee impact the
gig economy
how does it impact the military as
employer of last resort and how does it
fundamentally change the way we see the
public purpose yes I mean I agree that
there is this resignation when we talk
about technology there's a lot of folks
feel the sense of resignation right the
robots are marching in and I am of
different persuasion I don't think
that's the threat that folks are
experiencing I think the threat that
they truly experiencing it's management
is outsourcing yes of course there is
labor replacing technology and
technology is being used right to create
more difficult working conditions but I
don't think technology is the enemy I
would love to see some jobs that are
permanently you know automated
meatpacking is extremely dangerous life
threatening work it should not be done
by people is not in these circumstances
in these conditions embrace technology
so I find it's a little bit
disappointing that we are somehow able
to envision technological solutions to
problems but the one problem like
replacement of job we are not able to
envision a solution for that and the
solution seems to be quite
straightforward it's care work right we
care for each other we are social
animals you know human beings need
contact and you know I've said this
before and many of us have said this are
there any limits to which we can take
care of each other we can educate each
other we can improve our environment
we can produce things that we all enjoy
and love and do it by involving anyone
who needs work so these things for me
this is a false dichotomy they're not
pitted against each other I think that
the gig workers if uber is the way of
things a standard has to be preserved
just because there is a new way of
taxing people from their airports
doesn't mean that those folks should not
be earning decent basic wages so I think
whichever way work is gonna be
transformed and it surely will be with
contribution for technology there are
basic principles we need to preserve but
if you're gonna be working you should
have some very basic labor and wage
protections I want to talk to you about
the race to the bottom we oftentimes
even not in the crisis that we're in I
look back during Governor Rick Perry's
days as the governor of Texas and I can
look over there at Brownback in Kansas
and I see these governors who in
fairness to them they are stuck in a
dog-eat-dog world where states are
competing against each other or
businesses because that's the way it
structurally set up for it and Rick
Perry would brag about how he was able
to steal companies from wherever they
were and lure them down there the Texas
well the problem is is that when he
lures them with a sweetheart giveaway on
taxes and he lures them by cutting
social spending because states have to
have a balanced budget or they have to
have some sort of revenue to pay their
expenses as a currency user in this
scenario they leave behind an entire
area that no longer has work those
people are trapped the revenue has dried
up the race to the bottom becomes real
because now their state government
starts going on life-support and all of
a sudden we see more and more and more
islands of despair and destitution
similar to what we see in Detroit and
Flint Michigan and other places where
there was once great industry and it is
now a ghost town it's left in shambles
can you relate the race to the bottom
and the job guarantee and how that might
prevent
such arduous situations from coming up
this is clearly a part of the American
economy this whole race to the bottom
yes that's right
I mean just like the threat of
unemployment creates a race to the
bottom right the looming threat of
unemployment is the most effective tool
to reduce wages right and to eliminate
hard-fought benefits from before so if
you don't eradicate once and for all the
threat of unemployment then it's very
easy to dismount all these other various
protections that were put in place you
make the fight to improve minimum wages
so much harder and you know that kind of
displacement effect with the rise of the
freelance worker as opposed to you know
the stable employ the outsourcing that
is a race to the bottom a function of
unemployment but you are correct to say
about states that's really a really
important point states are essentially
engaged in an arms race that's it
who is going to reduce their taxes lower
and further for companies to come in and
set up shop establish headquarters but
we know what it is they do this
arbitrage you know as soon as the
benefits expire companies then they jump
ship they go to the next state and so
this is an unwinnable war and what's
interesting is the Kauffman Foundation I
think Kansas City has good research on
this arms race essentially that says it
doesn't create net new jobs it's
extremely costly for states but the job
impact is negligible and if you just
account for jobs lost with this you know
moving across borders the net job effect
is very very small so enormous resources
are spent if states were able to just
use that funding to create direct
employment they will be better off and
at one point I had looked at the subsidy
that the state of New Jersey was
providing to Amazon to set up warehouses
there it was something on the order of
three to five billion dollars which
would have been enough to hire every
unemployed person in New Jersey at a
living wage so we are not even thinking
about this the right way we are always
more than what's necessary.
I mean in the
MMT community you know we are very clear
that it's not the number that matters
it's how you spend the money right what
is the bang for the buck that you get
you know they stop obsessing over
numbers but we are spending a lot more
without generating what we need and my
other work on just fiscal policy I you
know also highlight how just
stabilization policies are much the same
way you know we try to spend spend spend
into a very leaky economy an economy
that doesn't create good jobs and
doesn't create them quickly and instead
you know we sort of stuff the coffers of
financial sector and we support profits
without supporting wages and so yes
there is a race to the bottom on
multiple level at the macroeconomic
level at the state level at the very
micro firm level and we just need a
paradigm shift to actually create this
bubble up economy so the draw parity
does that by just firming up an
uncompromising wage floor and wage
benefit package below which no one will
fall and that it provides that job
security so now that obviously has
important implications on those in the
labor market who have the worst
bargaining power so that's already off
the bat makes things so much better for
folks and McDonald's that are protesting
sexual harassment right you know now you
can walk away from the job you know
that's another tool of negotiation right
but if you don't if you cannot walk away
from your job you endure the inhumane
conditions because you have to feed your
family right so it's very important you
know from the ground up at the micro
level that really helps on the estate
level it helps just as you said stay to
have these balanced budget amendments
and they cut in the midst of a recession
I mean we're seeing this already you
know that the education budgets in New
York City were slashed and we are
proposing new budgets but we're spending
on kovat which really needs to be
federal expenditure and so what one can
gives the other one takes away and jobs
will be lost not today they will be lost
again tomorrow
I mean they obviously lost today but
those that are not lost today may be
lost tomorrow and so we need to also
help States if states are gonna have
balanced budget amendments that actually
means the opposite of devolution right
instead of devolving with federal
responsibilities at the state level let
States have discretionary power on how
to organize projects but provide funding
for these social policies including the
job guarantee so that is also a bottom
up policy and then of course at the
macro level we've talked about how the
job guarantees the stabilized are far
better than an unemployment stabilizer
so that is also a bottom up
macroeconomic bubble up mechanism this
is such an important point because I at
one time worked at a state agency here
in Pennsylvania and we had a six hundred
million dollar budget shortfall and you
know the concern was the bridges already
d-rated there's all these problems with
schools all these different things and
you look and you say to yourself where's
the money coming from to get this state
back up and running well the minute you
start trying to raise taxes you have the
other people trying to do what they can
do to flee and so forth they start
looking at the federal mandates unfunded
mandates that the federal government is
placed on States.
and I think to myself
what would possibly be the purpose of
placing unfunded mandates on the states
why are we not in the business of
providing some sort of a cushion to
ensure that states are not put in these
race to the bottom situations what is
the advantage or what is the purpose
here and I'm curious why do we have
unfunded mandates that create these
unemployment situations yeah I mean this
is you know really a post-reagan
strategy to basically reduce government
and you know it's a defund and destroy
that's essentially it I don't have like
a better more polite explanation than
simply the aim to privatize public
essential government functions you know
and we've seen the most egregious
examples of this when whole cities
instead of being managed by their City
Council's you know there's a private
company it come in sweeping in to run
the city's affairs you know the city is
a city
public purpose is not a business
enterprise and then of course what we
see is cutting from the municipal water
system from basic infrastructure people
drinking poisoned water I mean no
surprise but the devolution the process
of devolution that began under Nixon and
was accelerated under Reagan had a very
clear mission to simply reduce the size
of government and worse privatize many
functions and so what that did is not
only put responsibilities on States to
do essential things but the net effect
was also reduction in grants and aid and
funding so it's the Hunger Games that's
basically what we have been experiencing
living through and it is gratuitous
suffering and we have the power of the
public purse to change that and we most
certainly have the capacity to create
employment opportunities we don't have
to reinvent the wheel we have a good
playbook we know how to do it we just
need to do it better we need to do it
for the modern day one of the things
that jumps out at me is the reopen
America folks they didn't see any
alternatives they had no idea that there
was a way of doing things without
jeopardizing people's health they
thought this virus to be a scam a hoax
the things coming out of us just unreal
but there was a very impassioned plea to
reopen America I think part of that is
from the capitalists that want to see
their businesses open I think some of us
from small businesses that are really
going belly-up because of a lack of
support but I think also it's from
workers that don't have any idea that
there are alternative ways of doing
things and I'm just curious as to what
your take is on how not only the job
guarantee but nationalizing payroll and
quite frankly just the lens of fiscal
policy through mmt how we might have
been able to handle the concept of
reopen America differently as from my
talks with Steve Dean this pandemic
we're experiencing right now coupled
with climate change issues that were
gonna be facing soon as well this is
kind of the new norm and we didn't do
very good we didn't handle this very
well we didn't message well we didn't
have solutions we didn't have anything
what do you think in terms of
would your message be to reopen America
folks who maybe think that's the only
answer there are two essential I think
lessons from the open America phenomena
the first is that the threat of
unemployment is an enormous fear in
folks right if we again shifted this
paradigm and didn't accept the
inevitability of unemployment our job
would have been done better so what our
European counterparts did is they
protected jobs so people were paid to
stay home and they felt more comfortable
to stay home because they didn't have
the uncertainty of a job loss so that
would have been the first thing we
wouldn't have rushed to open America.
but
also European counterparts help
businesses with paying their bills
because obviously businesses are losing
sales and revenue and so they also have
mortgages and they have overheads and
bills to pay so it was a two-prong
strategy so essentially at least denmark
attempted to put the economy on freeze
and allow people to make their financial
commitments without fear of loss of
employment now the loss of business i
think is a real fear because if kovat is
with us for some time no effective means
of testing treatment vaccination etc you
name it that will mean decline in
economic activity and so a business
mom-and-pop shop is fearful for their
very existence and there are some
surveys that have come out recently that
more than half of businesses think this
is an existential threat to them and
even if they reopen whether they reopen
or not that threat doesn't go away
precisely because people will not rush
back to the restaurant because of kovat
so what do we do you know those folks
lose their businesses right they will be
on the street we could mobilize I mean
my main message from the beginning on
this was mobilized mobilized mobilized
we knew about the virus in December when
we were watching what was happening in
China whether we have the full
information or not is irrelevant we know
enough about public health to know
that we can crank production and we can
look to see whether we are prepared so
we could have been cranking safety
equipment production and putting in
place protocols just planning in the
background planning for the event
reality that's my lesson going forward
we can start planning a job guarantee
now and a green new deal now because the
lesson for policy has to be preparedness
and prevention rather than crisis
response so we know that unemployment
will occur again for some other reason
whether it is a financial crisis whether
it's a flood whether it's a hurricane we
need to have a preparedness response to
employ the unemployed but we know that
all those looming crisis need other work
too we need to prevent fires we need to
prevent floods we need to prevent the
destitution with these natural disasters
and start rehabilitating the environment
so if we arrive at this understanding
that we should not wait until the crisis
is upon us and start thinking about
government and employment and projects
just a little bit ahead I think we will
be so much better off very good
in talking with Nathan dankus nathan has
put out some information about local
complementary currencies in the space
where the federal government hasn't done
its job it's left its own opportunities
to the wind here and the idea here of
states stepping in and figuring out
alternative ways to hire people and to
keep the economy going what are your
thoughts about the Uni and other things
that might allow for a local job
guarantee in the midst of these crisis
times
yes when all else fails you know you
look for new solution so absolutely
that's the history of various local
currencies as communities trying to do
something good and useful when the
public sector the federal government
refuses to step in and I think what is
also important from Nathan's work is
that we are already breaking so many of
the rules in terms of sovereign
financing right I mean we are financing
left and right entities businesses
corporations that were never had this
direct access to the public purse you
know the Federal Reserve and so why
shouldn't we create you knees and then
have the Fed backstop them there seems
very little logic in the current
environment to say well oh no this
cannot be done but we certainly can now
by corporate bonds but again you see our
thinking is still top down not bottom up
if the Fed is going to use its emergency
power to bail out the corporate sector
now they of course providing additional
support for states and municipalities
why not people right why not you know
direct accounts at the Fed why not
backstop local currencies that are used
for employment purposes so I think that
is not only just creative solutions in
times of you know desperate times when
the state doesn't have resources but
also the current environment
demonstrates that we're clearly capable
to do this at various other levels I
would still prefer that the federal
government steps in and provides the
adequate funding you know we don't need
to let a thousand currencies bloom so
that we can run a job guarantee it's
great it's very exciting actually how
communities are doing it but that is
still predicated on this insane
incapacity that we believe that the
federal government you know has and so
this is as I say you know I think mmt is
a precondition for almost every
progressive policy that we want and we
want it at a level that guarantees
rights for everyone because local
currencies will not be able to guarantee
employment for everyone you know maybe
within a town right
our goal aspiration is for this to
happen in every corner of the country
for every single individual so for that
I much prefer the public first to be
employed I love it there's a couple
things that jumped out at me here number
one is going back to the idea of labor
unions and organizing and you mentioned
about how people can leave a bad
situation and really put the screws to
the business that has put bad situation
on them you know I think to myself when
I used to be a member of the local CWA
2222 part of Verizon and when we would
go on strike a lot of us guys would go
jump and start delivering pizzas at the
local Domino's or whatever it was that
was available and a lot of people didn't
have any work coming in and we were in a
professional albeit blue-collar type
career but we were making good money the
idea of being able to jump to a job
guarantee in the midst of a strike and
have an income while you're negotiating
to me this is a great cell to labor
unions I mean this is an opportunity to
really get labor unions engaged in
pushing and helping advance the concept
of a job guaranteed what do you think
about that I think that we should be
natural allies it's important to
recognize that we haven't always been
natural allies and that says that at
least during FDR's time the projects
that FDR created we're not always
supported by unions with the idea that
you know those projects might be taking
some good union jobs and there was some
tension I think it was resolved by FDR
using union input in the job creation
and the most popular ones was the green
projects unions thought that youth
programs were not really a threat to
Union jobs but I think that is still a
world in which unemployment looms large
now what would a world that has banished
the threat of unemployment look like and
what would be the work of unions how
would you negotiate and you know what
kind of power will you have within your
own industry if you actually don't have
to deal with the threat of unemployment
I think that the unions can use their
time and
much more productive ways to improve the
working conditions of their union
members so I think we are absolutely
natural allies and I think another
reason why we're natural allies is
because most work in the United States
is service work and it is underpaid it's
not sort of the good quality union
manufacturing jobs of the past and
teachers are being unionized you know
nurses and others but you know they're
still at the lower end of the wage
spectrum so this idea of raising the
floor you know that job guarantee
establishing a firm living wage floor
makes I think union work so much easier
for service unions as well so I think
we've had some sympathy and excitement
from some corners in unions and I think
that that conversation is important
especially if it comes to the point that
we plan I think that you know job
Garrity workers themselves should be
permitted to form a union as well so is
the same fight and I think that the more
we realize you know the commonality I
think the better you know I want to make
a little bit of an anecdote here we've
been trapped in our house for people a
kid with autism that's bouncing off the
walls a seven-year-old who is just
absolutely flying off the walls as well
and to parents that are still working
albeit remotely and the school work that
our daughter has in first grade mind you
is outrageous like she had so much
homework to do during this stay at home
and it wasn't easy to do
I mean Melanie was going crazy trying to
help our daughter get this thing done
and I kept thinking to myself although I
didn't want to say it out loud and
perturbing but I kept thinking wow what
a great opportunity for tutors retired
teachers whatever to work individually
with students to help them get their
homework done when parents aren't really
necessarily at what to do some of this
thing there was a real opportunity for a
job guarantee type role right here in
the midst of this pandemic oh my god
this I have a seven-year-old in my house
you and me exactly the same thoughts I
cannot tell you and they have a lot of
work you know and they have a lot of
assignments and they
have a regular one-hour meeting with
their teachers almost every day but I
think they should have you know three
hours four hours maybe because it's fun
I see for my daughter it's fun to see
her friends online the teacher does some
interactive activities and exercises
with them and you know it has that
social element that I can certainly not
provide you know I she keeps asking me
to jump on the trampoline with her it's
not and they like that the teachers are
providing some instructional content and
they themselves have children in their
own homes and so I could see how my
daughter's teacher cannot obviously run
her normal class because she's
homeschool your own kids but there are
so many people who don't have work there
are students who are coming out of
educational programs college students
University students who could be plugged
in exactly as tutors who could start
running little sessions absolutely I
think there's so much to do and this
idea that just because we're shuttered
at home there isn't work to do and we
can't do it you know the job guarantees
on how it's more difficult to run
because we're all staying home really I
don't think it's correct
you know elderly folks need to be looked
in on somebody needs to pick up the
phone maybe you know run a little
session whatever it is there's so many
people in isolation so I think that
you're absolutely right look that we can
do even now no I appreciate that a final
point you know obviously African
Americans have been hit incredibly hard
by the virus the mortality rate within
the African American community is
significantly higher than that of others
and a lot of that stems from a lack of
access to health care and a lot of that
also stems from situations that I
believe job guarantee could have
prevented as well but one of the big
things is is that we look at people that
are insulated somewhat from the
financial destitution of a depression
you look at the people whose
generational wealth is non-existent and
they're dependent on a paycheck they
don't have any familial wealth they
don't have anything
back on whatsoever and this crisis has
been particularly difficult for people
of color and others who are marginalized
throughout history what is your thoughts
there in terms of messaging to them how
this might be a benefit within their
community and something they can start
rallying around yes all of the problems
that we've discussed in the economy and
in the labor market need to have a very
clear understanding of how systemic
racism affects those outcomes whether it
is as you said folks who don't have
generational wealth for hundreds and
hundreds of years African Americans who
go to education but their educational
returns don't materialize they don't
translate into income returns into
well-being however measured I mean these
are systemic and long trends that also
need to be broken up
and access to decent employment is one
way by no means I'm gonna say that it's
going to address all forms of systemic
racism but to have the ability to work
in a decent well-paid job and not to be
always the person who is again last
hired first fire the person who's put in
the most dangerous situations the
ability to walk away from an abusive
employer I think that those who are
systemically marginalized and
discriminated african-american community
people of color they will naturally
benefit the most from those sorts of
protections that the job guarantee will
provide and with that I want to thank
you so much for taking the time with us
I know that you've been involved in a
few other projects if you wouldn't mind
just close us out and let us know what
you're working on where we can find you
and any other goodies that might be of
interest that we can find and support
you in oh thank you very much a recent
project has been very exciting and
interesting to highlight with several
female scholars we drafted an op-ed on
democratizing work it was actually an
initiative by a colleague of mine Isabel
Harris she drafted the op-ed and put in
the job guaranteeing that op-ed as
democratizing the workplace within the
private sector and calling for
environmental remediation what's
exciting about this is that this op-ed
literally overnight gathered support
around the world now 6,000 people have
signed on around the world it was
published in 26 languages and in 40
papers.
but there is again a global
understanding that our goals and
objectives are connected and also for me
personally is very interesting because
the job guarantee is this solution
outside of the market that is by the
public sector for the public purpose but
indeed lives of working people can be
improved materially if we also try to
democratize the workplace the private
firm and so I think that these are also
natural alliances and we were thinking
about you know various forms in which we
can tackle these two challenges you
can't democratize the firm if you have
the threat of unemployment but the
threat of unemployment can truly be
solved with a job guarantee if you don't
have also more power within the firm so
keep an eye out for that very very good
I'm very excited about the book again I
did purchase it can't wait to read it
and I just want to thank you again or
all the selfless work you do and being
such a great spokesman for these causes
and I just want to thank you for being a
good friend so thank you for joining me
today
likewise Steve always appreciate you
work and thank you for carrying on
appreciate the forum you got it alright
this is Steve krumbine javelina Geneva
we're out of here thanks
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