文字起こし 00:04 [Music] 00:15 hey everybody marianne williamson here 00:17 and thank you so much for joining me 00:19 uh i'm very excited about our 00:20 conversation that matters today 00:22 with economist stephanie kelton i want 00:25 to begin by talking about how a 00:27 caterpillar becomes a butterfly 00:30 a caterpillar literally disintegrates 00:33 and it disintegrates into what 00:34 scientists called 00:36 an imaginal soup a soup 00:40 of what is called imaginal cells 00:43 and out of these imaginal cells comes 00:45 the butterfly when it comes to economics 00:48 that's how i see stephanie kelton 00:50 there's no question but that we are an 00:52 economic crisis in our country right now 00:54 and in many ways the world is an 00:56 economic 00:56 crisis but what the united states is 00:58 going through now with coveted etc 01:01 uh 93 million people were living near 01:03 poverty even before the pandemic 01:06 eight million people more have been 01:07 thrown onto poverty since it began 01:10 and we have a congress which is even as 01:13 we speak 01:14 withholding the economic resources that 01:16 people need 01:17 literally in order to survive we have 01:20 millions who might be 01:21 uh thrown out of their homes we have 01:23 millions who are wondering how they're 01:24 going to feed their children 01:26 it's extraordinary uh the the coldness 01:30 and 01:30 even the cruelty i don't think it's 01:32 hyperbole to say cruelty 01:33 of a of a congress that 01:37 will make sure that the pentagon gets 01:39 funded this week 01:40 but still can't seem to get it together 01:42 to give the kind of financial relief to 01:44 people that people so desperately need 01:46 well we we know that something is 01:49 terribly wrong that this 01:50 is true but we need those who can 01:52 articulate for us 01:54 how we got here what's happening now and 01:56 how to make things right 01:58 and that's where stephanie kelton comes 01:59 in incredible 02:01 book it's a bestseller i highly 02:03 recommend it but a silver lining 02:05 that's inherent in the pandemic is most 02:08 of us have more time to read 02:10 than usual and it's a good good thing 02:14 uh anything that gives us the 02:15 opportunity to catch up on reading 02:17 the book is the deficit myth modern 02:20 monetary theory 02:22 and the birth of the people's economy 02:25 so i have had the honor of knowing 02:27 stephanie kelton 02:29 for a bit of time uh i just think the 02:32 world of her as a person 02:33 and i certainly think the world of her 02:35 as an economist 02:36 and i'm very very excited uh to have 02:39 this opportunity to interview her today 02:41 and for you to get to hear that 02:42 make sure that you stick around after 02:44 the interview uh for the ask marianne 02:47 section where i will take some of the 02:48 questions that have come in if you 02:50 yourself have a question remember 02:51 write to marianitecastmedia.com let's 02:54 get started 02:55 thanks so much here's stephanie kelton 03:00 stephanie thank you so much for being 03:02 here i'm so grateful to you thank you so 03:04 much for having me 03:05 you're out there a lot people are 03:07 listening people are hearing people are 03:09 talking about your book the wonderful 03:11 book the deficit myth 03:12 uh the way i want to start is it is my 03:15 sense as i 03:16 have traveled around the country my own 03:18 experiences 03:19 that people know the economy is rigged 03:22 they know something is wrong 03:24 it's not like people are stupid and it's 03:26 not like it's obviously not like people 03:28 don't care 03:29 but the the dots have been scrambled 03:31 people aren't connecting the dots 03:33 and that's what i think is the 03:35 importance of your work you're 03:36 connecting the dots for people 03:38 people see things like such is happening 03:40 right now the house is poised to pass 03:42 the national defense authorization act 03:44 to make sure that the pentagon gets its 03:46 750 billion dollars this year 03:49 and yet they can't seem to get it 03:51 together to pass even another 1200 03:53 one-time stimulus so the people 03:55 recognize that huge multinational 03:57 corporate interests are getting the 03:58 money and they're 03:59 not but they don't know why and it seems 04:02 to me like one of the most pernicious 04:03 lies 04:04 of the last few decades is that people 04:06 have been 04:08 trained to expect too little and one of 04:11 the ways that people have been trained 04:12 to expect too little 04:14 is that they're told there's not enough 04:16 money for 04:17 all of the things that uh uh that they 04:20 would want or need just in order to live 04:23 lives in which you're thriving in a way 04:24 that i think citizens should have a 04:26 right to expect 04:27 in the largest country in the world now 04:29 those of us who are 04:30 not economists know that this is crazy 04:34 but we can't point out why and then you 04:37 come along 04:38 and here is stephanie kelton an 04:40 economist is saying to us 04:42 you're right it is crazy and i'll tell 04:44 you why 04:45 so that's why so many of us are so 04:47 grateful that you're here helping us 04:48 not only to figure out what went wrong 04:50 but what we need to do to make things 04:52 right 04:53 what i love about the book the deficit 04:56 is the 04:56 is the subtitle modern monetary theory 04:59 and the birth 05:00 of the people's economy so now i just 05:02 want to throw it over to you 05:04 what is we know what a corporate economy 05:07 economy is we know what an economy is 05:09 where one percent 05:10 uh owns more wealth in the bottom half 05:13 etc what is the people's economy 05:15 what is the modern monetary theory and 05:17 how do we get there 05:18 okay so there's a lot to unpack there 05:21 you know what's funny is 05:22 right before i joined you the last tweet 05:24 that i saw 05:26 as i shut twitter down was someone 05:29 reporting from the washington post a 05:31 reporter saying that the news out of the 05:33 white house is that the white house is 05:36 urging 05:36 senate republicans to go ahead and try 05:40 to 05:40 work into this compromise legislation 05:43 600 not 1200 but 600 05:47 in uh so-called stimulus right send 05:50 everybody a check 05:51 that 1200 check that many folks got many 05:54 months ago 05:55 uh now the white house is saying why 05:57 don't we cut it in half and try to go 05:58 for 600 05:59 and get it out the door and the tweet 06:01 that i saw was in response to this 06:04 news this breaking news and the tweet 06:06 said something like 06:07 it's um it's amazing that the whole 06:10 country isn't just basically being 06:12 burned down right now 06:13 and it speaks to your point exactly 06:16 which is that we've been trained 06:18 to accept so little why aren't people 06:21 absolutely up in arms at the fact that 06:24 you know there has been essentially 06:27 no action out of congress for the last 06:30 five plus months that you know we got 06:33 the kind of uh 06:34 you know quick response to coronavirus 06:36 we got 06:37 basically four pieces of legislation 06:40 passed out of congress the big one being 06:42 the cares act 06:43 and then nothing even as conditions 06:45 continued to deteriorate and it became 06:48 clear that more support was needed 06:50 congress just said 06:51 well essentially right republicans in 06:53 the senate said 06:54 we're not interested in providing 06:56 further help 06:57 and somehow someway we all as a 07:00 population just sort of sit there and 07:02 say 07:02 well i guess they're not interested 07:04 maybe you know something will happen 07:05 somewhere down the line maybe we'll get 07:07 nothing 07:07 i don't know there isn't that pressure 07:10 brought to bear that you would think 07:12 that the people you're asking about a 07:14 people's economy 07:15 if these folks work for us if they are 07:17 really there as 07:18 in a sense caretakers right for the 07:21 nation and for the people of this 07:22 country how on earth 07:24 is it that they can turn their backs on 07:27 people 07:27 in a time of crisis when we know you 07:30 know we know that 13 million or so 07:32 americans 07:34 are going to be behind many months on 07:36 their rent and utilities 07:37 up to as much as 6 000 on average come 07:41 january 07:42 that people are hanging on by a thread 07:44 small businesses are continuing to go 07:46 under families are on the brink of a 07:48 fiction 07:49 uh losing their livelihoods how is it 07:52 that congress doesn't do more to support 07:55 the economy in the interest in the 07:57 service 07:58 of the people those of us who put them 07:59 there and you you already 08:01 uh hit on this that you know too often 08:05 the federal budgeting process works not 08:08 for 08:08 the broad majority of this population in 08:12 you know devoting resources to the kinds 08:14 of things that 08:15 we know people support universal health 08:18 care popular 08:19 right canceling some student loan debt 08:21 popular 08:22 doing a stimulus checks popular we know 08:25 the kinds of things that people want but 08:27 the 08:27 budgeting process works very well when 08:30 it comes to as you said the defense 08:32 authorization act we can you know um 08:35 conjure up votes to fund hundreds of 08:38 billions of dollars for the pentagon 08:41 but somehow congress feels that it 08:44 it can turn its back on people and 08:47 essentially face no 08:48 penalty for that right because we are 08:52 we have a congress that does not act as 08:53 a government of the people by the people 08:55 for the people 08:56 it's of the corporations by the 08:57 corporations and for the corporations 08:59 one of the things that i i like about 09:01 your book is that it gives historical 09:03 examples 09:04 of how it got this way and it's 09:06 historical examples of why it doesn't 09:08 need to be this way 09:09 in terms of the kovid relief you point 09:11 out that this is pretty much the same 09:13 template as the obama administration 09:14 came up with 09:16 after the meltdown in 2008. we were 09:19 already well on the track 09:21 of making it making it okay for wall 09:23 street before we made it okay from main 09:25 street isn't that correct 09:27 yeah and there are definitely some 09:29 parallels here i think 09:30 you know we did get some good things 09:33 into the cares act that 09:34 uh top up in unemployment compensation 09:37 the federal government provided an 09:39 additional 09:39 six hundred dollars a week uh to 09:42 millions of americans who lost jobs in 09:44 the 09:45 you know uh in the wake of the pandemic 09:47 and so forth 09:48 that was a lifeline for the first time 09:50 in their lives 09:52 millions of workers actually had enough 09:55 to live on they actually had some money 09:57 left at the end of the month they said 09:59 i'm able to pay all of my bills and i 10:01 didn't have to go into debt 10:03 just to cover my ordinary expenses so 10:06 for the first time in their lives they 10:07 were doing a little bit better and guess 10:08 what 10:09 you know the people researchers who've 10:11 looked at the cares act and some of the 10:13 better things that were in it 10:14 said that as a result of programs like 10:17 that and the 1200 10:18 stimulus checks that the cares act 10:21 probably 10:22 kept 18 million americans from slipping 10:25 into poverty 10:26 now since the income support has largely 10:29 run out 10:30 eight million americans have fallen into 10:32 poverty since then 10:34 so you know we did a little bit better 10:36 for main street 10:37 in the cares act as compared to a lot of 10:40 what was in 10:41 the major piece of legislation that came 10:44 after the financial crisis in 2008 10:47 the so-called obama stimulus or the 10:49 american recovery and reinvestment act 10:52 that was heavily weighted in um tax cuts 10:55 right more than a third of that 10:57 legislation 10:59 was in the form of tax cuts why because 11:01 republicans thought this was the way to 11:02 pick up some votes 11:04 uh sorry democrats thought this was the 11:06 way to pick up some votes from their 11:07 republicans 11:08 uh in congress and guess what they put 11:11 all these tax cuts and they didn't get 11:12 the republican support anyway 11:14 so um there are definitely parallels 11:17 but you also talk about how much we 11:19 actually 11:20 um actually achieved 11:24 during world war ii in the midst of the 11:26 depression what we achieved 11:28 and i want and and i i can't find this 11:30 in my notes right now 11:31 but if you could talk to me about that 11:33 this idea and what your book talks about 11:35 is how it's simply a myth 11:37 that we don't have the money it's not 11:40 economic decisions based on money that 11:42 we don't have 11:43 it's it's political decisions based on 11:46 money we don't want to 11:47 spend on the majority of people even at 11:51 a time like this when people are 11:52 experiencing the kind of hardship that 11:54 they are 11:55 none of us are unaware even before uh 11:58 the pandemic we had 40 12:00 of all americans who couldn't afford to 12:02 absorb a 400 12:04 unexpected expenditure right and we 12:07 already had 12:08 over 3 800 people who are hungry we 12:10 already had about 40 million people 12:11 living in poverty 12:12 so we talk about the fact that 8 million 12:15 more have slipped into poverty since the 12:16 pandemic began 12:18 we talk about the fact that it could get 12:19 up to 20 million 12:21 the rate things are going but something 12:23 was so terribly wrong 12:24 that that many people were living in 12:26 poverty before 12:28 so uh so much of this gaslighting 12:32 has been because people were told that 12:34 we just don't have the money 12:35 the deficit is so high and what your 12:38 book talks about 12:39 is we're talking about the wrong kind of 12:41 deficit we should be talking about the 12:42 health care deficit you say we should be 12:44 talking about the infrastructure deficit 12:46 and the democracy deficit and the good 12:49 jobs deficit 12:50 so would you please explain what is this 12:53 issue of the deficit 12:54 and how is the myth of deficit spending 12:57 used as a cover for the greed 13:00 and the systemic economic injustice that 13:03 keeps our system 13:04 so increasingly perilous and i think it 13:07 is perilous to our democracy and 13:09 certainly perilous to the lives of 13:10 millions and millions of people 13:12 yeah i mean the deficit is in a very 13:15 uh real way considered like the get out 13:18 of jail free card from 13:20 any members of congress right because 13:22 you can go to them 13:23 and you can implore them and you can lay 13:25 out the kinds of things that you just 13:26 said oh the dire conditions in this 13:28 country people don't have enough of this 13:30 and enough of that and we are taking 13:31 care 13:32 and they say listen boy oh boy do i 13:33 agree with you man i'd love to agree 13:35 more 13:36 love to be able to do something for you 13:39 but we got this deficit we got these 13:41 trillion dollar deficits we have 13:42 multi-trillion dollar debt 13:44 what are we going to do we can't burn we 13:45 can't lay this on the next generation 13:47 we're just not 13:48 we can't afford it and so they hide 13:50 behind that and 13:51 so what i'm trying to do is shine a 13:53 great big light on 13:55 this you know you sure yeah and and look 13:58 and i think the the way to start the 14:00 conversation is honestly 14:02 well to be honest about what this thing 14:04 is and to recognize that 14:07 every deficit is good for someone not 14:09 the democracy deficit not the climate 14:11 deficit not the infrastructure deficit 14:13 every 14:14 government deficit is good for someone 14:16 so like why do i say that what what is 14:18 this thing we call 14:20 the the public deficit or the government 14:22 deficit 14:23 it's very simple it's the difference 14:24 between two numbers okay that's what is 14:27 this thing we call the deficit the first 14:28 number 14:29 how many dollars the government spends 14:31 into the economy 14:33 each year the second number how many 14:35 dollars the government subtracts 14:36 out of the economy mostly through 14:38 taxation each year okay the difference 14:40 between two numbers 14:42 so when the government's budget ends the 14:44 year 14:45 in deficit what it tells us is that the 14:47 government has 14:48 spent more dollars into the economy 14:51 right adding dollars 14:52 then it has subtracted away but we know 14:55 that if the government 14:56 adds more than it subtracts then what 14:58 happens 14:59 somebody gets some dollars if they put 15:01 100 in and they only take 15:02 90 out somebody gets 10. every deficit 15:06 is good for someone the government's 15:08 finance the government's budget deficit 15:10 is our financial surplus it is the 15:13 collective 15:14 surplus of dollars that exists outside 15:17 of the government part of the economy so 15:19 now the question is 15:21 well where'd they go who got them what 15:23 were they you know 15:24 who got that windfall who are they 15:26 benefiting so you look at the 15:27 republicans and you look at the tax cuts 15:29 that they passed 15:30 at the end of 2017. right donald trump 15:34 said 15:35 biggest tax cuts in the history of the 15:36 world this is the greatest thing i'm the 15:38 greatest president 15:39 i passed these huge tax cuts why did 15:40 republicans pass those tax cuts 15:42 knowing that they would add about two 15:45 trillion dollars 15:46 to government deficits over the course 15:49 of 10 years why would they do that 15:51 because they understand perfectly well 15:53 that 15:54 by running a larger budget deficit they 15:56 are producing a financial windfall 15:58 that it goes somewhere somebody gets to 16:01 keep more dollars where did they go 16:03 mostly to people in the top 1 percent 83 16:05 percent of the benefits 16:07 on the personal income tax cut side went 16:09 to people in the top one percent of the 16:11 income distribution you have corporate 16:13 income tax cuts benefiting large 16:15 corporations 16:16 so they're not bashful about using the 16:18 deficit to carry out 16:20 their agenda to divert resources 16:23 financial resources 16:24 into the hands of the people they are 16:26 most interested in helping 16:28 now think about democrats what would 16:30 democrats do 16:31 if they better understood and weren't so 16:34 sort of 16:34 cowardly about using the deficit to 16:37 accomplish some of the things 16:39 on their political agenda they could do 16:42 things like 16:43 cancel some student loan debt provide 16:46 health care 16:47 for everyone make public colleges and 16:49 universities tuition free do more with 16:52 child care and elder care and 16:54 infrastructure and uh you know 16:56 climate change and and and these sorts 16:58 of things right so 16:59 you can use the deficit i say in the 17:01 book for good or evil 17:03 but recognize that every deficit is good 17:05 for somebody 17:06 it's just as you point out it's about 17:09 the politics of this right 17:10 who for whom are you fighting well even 17:13 if you look at the 17:14 the idea of defense spending 53 cents of 17:16 every dollar is defense related in the 17:18 united states 17:19 some people talk about how look how many 17:21 thousands of jobs that is 17:22 but the truth is that we've already 17:24 proven that investment in education and 17:26 infrastructure is actually monetarily a 17:28 better investment 17:29 uh that as we transition from a war 17:31 economy to a peace economy it would 17:33 actually be better for the economy 17:35 it's just a matter of who's whose pocket 17:37 are you talking about 17:38 right is what we're talking about here 17:40 now people who 17:42 who uh who criticize your work say first 17:45 of all where does all this money come 17:46 from 17:47 and secondly if you did what 17:50 modern monetary theory says wouldn't it 17:52 increase inflation 17:54 so what's your response to that okay so 17:56 let's do where does the money come from 17:58 first because this 17:59 is important and for sure not enough 18:02 people understand this and i the reason 18:04 is because nobody ever bothers to stop 18:05 and talk to us like adults 18:07 and level with us and level with us 18:09 honestly about 18:10 how the mechanics of government finance 18:12 like how does it all really work 18:14 so take the cares act for example 18:16 because this 18:17 is such a clear and present right 18:20 example of where the money comes from so 18:24 in 2019 you know as well as just about 18:27 anyone that 18:28 we had a very crowded field of 18:30 democratic presidential hopefuls 18:32 all vying for the nomination to become 18:36 the democratic candidate for president 18:38 people had platforms that ranged from 18:40 doing very ambitious things 18:42 medicare for all cancel all student loan 18:45 debt reparations 18:46 to slightly less ambitious going down 18:49 right the spectrum 18:50 but everybody had an agenda everybody 18:52 had a policy agenda and 18:53 all of the candidates were confronted 18:55 with that question that 18:56 dogged them throughout the campaign how 18:58 are you going to pay for it where's the 18:59 money going to come from 19:00 right for all of this stuff so 2019 we 19:03 as a nation are treated 19:05 i say in parentheses right treated to 19:08 this 19:08 uh narrative how will you pay for it all 19:11 of a sudden 19:11 fast forward just a few months march 19:14 happens we're in 2020 19:16 and the coronavirus is here and all of a 19:19 sudden 19:19 congress starts spinning out 19:22 multi-trillion 19:23 dollars spending bills without a 19:25 moment's pause without ever having a 19:27 conversation about who was going to pay 19:29 for it whose taxes were gonna 19:30 uh it was a christmas miracle 19:34 there was plenty of money where did it 19:35 come from so here's the answer to the 19:37 question 19:38 this is how it works congress wrote a 19:41 bill 19:41 called the cares act they passed the 19:44 bill 19:45 the votes authorized the spending 19:47 congress didn't go out and 19:49 find 2.2 trillion dollars it didn't pass 19:52 the hat 19:53 you know uncle sam didn't go to china 19:55 and other parts of the world and 19:57 ask to borrow 2.2 trillion dollars 20:00 congress has something the rest of us 20:01 don't have 20:02 they have the power of the purse it's in 20:04 the constitution the founders had the 20:06 good sense as 20:07 as president-elect biden said in a 20:09 recent debate right the founders were 20:11 smart enough 20:13 to give the federal government the power 20:15 to deficit spend 20:16 so congress can commit to spending money 20:19 it does not have 20:20 it can do things the rest of us can't do 20:23 so when congress wrote the cares act 20:25 what it was effectively doing was saying 20:27 to its bank 20:28 the federal reserve its fiscal agent 20:30 guess what 20:31 get ready guys we are ordering up 2.2 20:34 trillion dollars 20:36 we're ordering we're placing an order 20:37 for 2.2 trillion and you're going to 20:39 fill the order 20:40 on behalf of the us treasury why because 20:43 congress said so and we have the power 20:45 of the purse so that's where the money 20:48 comes from it all 20:49 happens you know we're in the modern era 20:51 nobody went out and printed physically 20:53 2.2 trillion dollars hey we got 20:55 keyboards right this is electronic now 20:58 we got digital dollars 20:59 so to make those payments that congress 21:02 authorized 21:02 to put an extra 600 a week in an 21:04 unemployment person's bank account 21:07 to clear that payment for the 1200 check 21:09 that you were sent 21:10 someone to the federal reserve is typing 21:12 in a keyboard 21:14 and those payments are being carried out 21:16 digitally by 21:18 keystroking new dollars into existence 21:21 that's where the money comes from your 21:22 second part of the question wait a 21:23 minute before you before you move on 21:25 though because 21:26 because not everybody is sort of up to 21:28 speed with this conversation so i want 21:29 to be really clear here 21:31 what you're saying is that the federal 21:32 government unlike state governments and 21:34 unlike the rest of us 21:36 issues currency the rest of us use 21:39 currency but the federal government can 21:42 issue currency 21:43 so what you're saying is if they want 21:44 more money it's just a keyboard 21:46 click away they issue the currency okay 21:49 and then the second question is 21:51 that is the key distinction thank you 21:53 the the distinction you want to keep in 21:55 mind is 21:56 that between the issuer and the user of 21:58 currency which by the way 22:00 should make sense to us right why didn't 22:02 the unemployed person 22:03 just keystroke some dollars into his or 22:05 her own bank account why didn't the 22:07 small business 22:08 go out and keystroke some dollars for 22:10 its own small business loan 22:12 why didn't state and local governments 22:13 why aren't mayors and governors keep 22:15 stroking their own 22:16 dollars to deal with their shortfalls 22:18 because they can't because they 22:19 lack the power to do what congress can 22:22 do founders didn't give the rest of us 22:24 the control of the currency the ability 22:26 to issue only these 22:28 and that's why you open the book saying 22:30 that when obama said 22:31 a household budget we should be we 22:33 should be budgeting the country like we 22:34 budget the household and you said no we 22:36 shouldn't 22:37 because a household doesn't get to issue 22:38 more currency and that our budget you 22:40 what you were talking about bernie you 22:42 were talking about yourself and 22:43 certainly i agree with this 22:44 that our our budget should be a moral 22:46 document it should be an expression of 22:48 our values it should not just be this 22:50 zero-sum game 22:51 that doesn't even apply since in fact 22:54 the federal government gets the issue 22:55 currency 22:56 okay second point what about the 22:57 inflation this second point is that 23:00 uh budgets are moral documents but they 23:02 are also 23:03 about priorities you can't do everything 23:06 so there are 23:07 limits just because you can keystroke 23:09 dollars 23:10 into people's bank accounts people often 23:12 say to me 23:13 oh really if it's so easy for the 23:15 government to just keystroke dollars 23:16 into existence 23:17 why don't you keystroke a million 23:19 dollars into everybody's bank account 23:20 why not just do that and the answer is 23:23 inflation and yeah you just mentioned it 23:25 right where 23:26 are the limits so is there anything to 23:29 prevent the federal government 23:31 from keystroking right pick a number 23:34 president trump wants to pick 600 23:36 democrats wanted 1200 23:38 others want 2 000 maybe 10 000 maybe 50 23:42 have 23:42 beyond some point the number gets too 23:45 big and how does that happen well 23:47 if you keystroke too many dollars into 23:50 everyone's bank account 23:52 their purchasing power is increased now 23:54 they can go out and spend ten thousand 23:55 or fifty thousand or a million dollars 23:58 and what that's going to do is 23:59 significantly 24:01 uh diminish the purchasing power of the 24:03 dollar over time right it's going to 24:05 create an inflation problem 24:06 why because the economy can't keep up 24:09 with that much demand at any point in 24:12 time 24:13 so think of the economy like you know 24:16 there is some productive capacity 24:18 of the us economy the businesses that 24:20 exist today 24:21 can produce only so much there are only 24:24 so many workers who can be hired 24:26 once you hit the the maximum once you 24:29 hit the ceiling and you top out at your 24:31 potential 24:32 any additional strain on the economy's 24:34 resources 24:36 will only produce inflationary pressures 24:38 so there are 24:39 limits and that's what we should be 24:41 paying attention to 24:42 not pretending that there's an arbitrary 24:45 financial 24:46 limit but recognizing that there are 24:48 ecological 24:49 limits right how much we should ask of 24:52 our 24:52 economy in terms of real resource use 24:55 extraction and so forth 24:57 and there are productive capacity limits 25:00 in the short run 25:01 well and right now there are limits to 25:02 how long a person can go without food 25:04 before they starve 25:05 those are the kind of limits we should 25:06 be thinking about right now so i think 25:08 it's important what you just said 25:09 because anyone who says that 25:11 your your theories are irresponsible 25:14 fiscally irresponsible inflationary 25:16 actually you are you are speaking with 25:18 great discipline and great 25:20 responsibility 25:21 but talking about who our first 25:22 responsibility is and that is to the 25:24 people of the united states 25:26 i want to go back a little bit to the to 25:27 the fact that it was during the 25:29 depression 25:30 that roosevelt established social 25:32 security 25:33 so what we're talking and there was they 25:35 came up with the money right 25:36 so the idea of course is the difference 25:39 between 25:40 economic crisis met with austerity 25:43 and economic crisis spent with what what 25:46 is the word that is used for sort of the 25:48 opposite direction of austerity 25:50 where you sort of loosen uh loosen money 25:52 allow people to have more money because 25:54 as you the point that you make and 25:56 others 25:56 is that that's what stimulates the 25:58 economy if you just give all your money 26:00 to the very richest 26:01 that does not stimulate the economy 26:03 trickle down theory 26:04 they're going to create jobs after 40 26:06 years 26:07 this is simply proven delusional whereas 26:10 if you give money to 26:12 a poorer person they're more likely to 26:14 spend it 26:15 and that is what would stimulate the 26:17 economy so that the best way to help us 26:20 out of this covid 26:21 situation right now is to make sure that 26:23 people get these stimulant 26:25 stimulus checks is to make sure that we 26:27 cancel the college loans etc isn't that 26:29 correct 26:30 yes i mean we this whole idea that 26:34 you know the job creators are the people 26:36 at the very top 26:37 that they're the owners of capital that 26:39 they are the the businessmen who do the 26:41 hiring right that these are the job 26:43 creators 26:44 and that you have to provide all of the 26:46 right incentives 26:47 to make them feel comfortable and uh 26:52 rub their bellies and treat them just so 26:55 so that they will offer jobs to the rest 26:56 of economy that's baloney 26:58 the real job creator i'm sorry go on yes 27:01 please 27:01 the real job creators are the people who 27:04 buy the goods and services they're the 27:06 consumers right without us they don't 27:09 have 27:09 anybody to sell their output to they 27:11 can't make revenue and they can't turn a 27:13 profit 27:14 and they go under so you know 27:17 yeah and and if you put it all the jobs 27:19 created by huge corporate entities 27:22 and you put that next to the jobs 27:23 created by small businesses in the 27:25 united states 27:26 the number of jobs created by small 27:28 businesses is just below 27:29 it's it's hardly even smaller than the 27:32 jobs created by big corporate entities 27:33 isn't that true 27:35 it is and i hope it will remain true i 27:37 mean we are 27:38 uh you know looking at the potential now 27:41 for these 27:41 waves of small business failures and and 27:44 greater and greater concentration among 27:46 the larger corporations 27:48 at the top and so um yeah we've we have 27:50 long described small businesses as the 27:53 sort of engine of growth 27:54 when it comes to our economy and job 27:56 creation and so forth and 27:57 that has long been true and you know 27:59 there are uh 28:00 reasons to be concerned about whether 28:03 that will remain true but 28:04 no look capitalism we have a capitalist 28:06 economy right capitalism is about 28:08 producing for profit 28:10 and so what makes a business want to 28:12 invest and when i say invest i'm talking 28:14 about buying back their shares and that 28:16 kind of stuff i'm talking about 28:17 investing in the company 28:19 you know uh research and development 28:21 spending money that way 28:22 more capital equipment to make you know 28:25 the business more productive 28:26 um you know expanding uh the fact number 28:29 of factories that they have and so forth 28:31 what makes businesses willing to hire 28:33 and invest and the answer is you have to 28:35 swamp them with customers 28:37 there has to be such strong demand 28:40 for the products that they produce that 28:43 businesses are compelled 28:44 to hire and invest because they see on 28:46 the other side of that 28:47 more demand more revenue more profit and 28:50 that's where you get the incentive for 28:52 hiring and 28:53 so with with the kind of income 28:55 inequality that we have today where 28:57 more and more of the income gains go to 29:00 a smaller and smaller number of people 29:01 at the very top 29:02 it's very difficult to sustain the kind 29:05 of demand 29:06 right across the economy for goods and 29:09 services 29:09 and so businesses will accumulate profit 29:11 but then do what 29:13 just sit on it put it offshore ride buy 29:15 back shares 29:16 not plow it back into the company not 29:18 reinvest why 29:20 because there isn't sufficient demand 29:21 for the output on the other side 29:24 okay so i want to talk about several of 29:25 these things i want to talk about the 29:26 difference between productivity and 29:28 wages 29:28 you talk about the fact that uh even in 29:30 1973 you said 29:32 there was pretty there was pretty much 29:34 alignment between productivity and wages 29:36 and the fact that productivity is 29:38 increased and wages have decreased is a 29:40 large part of why we have the income 29:41 inequality that we have today 29:44 and also it seems to me that's correct 29:47 isn't that 29:47 right stephanie did i got that right 29:49 okay real median wages flatline 29:51 productivity growth continues the other 29:54 thing that just 29:55 this whole capitalism conversation you 29:57 know any 29:58 anyone in business knows what nature 30:00 knows and that you have to 30:02 keep putting out new products you have 30:03 to keep feeding new generations 30:05 you need to create new products that 30:07 life generates itself 30:08 and right now america is so in the 30:11 current economic model is so intent on 30:13 eating our young 30:14 when you have 45 million people who 30:17 carry these college loans most of whom 30:19 are america's young not all of them but 30:21 most of them you have a trillion 30:23 of college loan debt it seems to me all 30:25 these young people would love to do is 30:26 get in the game 30:27 but you can't be a capitalist if you 30:29 don't have any capital 30:30 so if these young people are are saddled 30:33 with these college loans 30:34 they don't have the discretionary 30:36 funding to start businesses 30:38 and then everybody wonders why they have 30:40 this anti-capitalist fervor 30:42 i understand it because of all the 30:43 millions and millions of young people 30:45 who are saying what has global 30:46 capitalism ever done for me 30:48 and this reminds me of um when when so 30:51 many people called 30:52 fdr socialist he said i'm not a 30:54 socialist i'm i'm not destroying 30:55 capitalism i'm 30:56 saving capitalism people who want money 30:59 in the pockets of people 31:02 this is uh the way to generate the kind 31:05 of 31:06 uh of of economy where 31:09 enough people have money to spend to get 31:11 into the game otherwise 31:12 how can you even talk about a capitalist 31:14 economy it's more of a royalism 31:16 you know what we have now is what fdr 31:20 called and then bernie picked it up also 31:21 the phrase economic royalism 31:23 yeah i i mean that's right you know you 31:25 we know that 31:27 um after the coronavirus hit 31:30 that what is it 40 31:33 of uh workers who make 40 000 31:37 a year or less lost jobs 40 31:40 of people in the bottom of the income 31:43 distribution just 31:44 incredible right the way that things are 31:46 skewed in this country so 31:48 we really do have it upside down there's 31:50 no question about it 31:51 for uh you know a variety of uh reasons 31:55 we have we have constructed i'll say 31:58 construct it because it's deliberate 31:59 right these things don't happen by 32:01 chance 32:01 there have been a series of decisions 32:04 deliberate ones when it comes to our tax 32:06 policy our trade policy 32:07 our labor policies um you know 32:10 environment things that we have done 32:12 have built an economy that doesn't work 32:15 for half the population or more 32:17 right and that has left us vulnerable in 32:20 so many ways 32:21 okay so i want people to be really clear 32:23 how this happened first of all i found 32:24 the quote i wanted 32:26 uh it says even when americans were at 32:28 their poorest during the great 32:29 depression 32:30 this is from your book we managed to 32:32 establish social security and the 32:34 minimum wage 32:35 electrify rural communities provide 32:38 federal housing loans 32:39 and fund a massive jobs program 32:43 so this idea that we don't have the 32:45 money to serve the people 32:46 it's just like you say it's a myth right 32:50 yeah i mean you know the one of the 32:51 things that that the us and other 32:53 countries did 32:54 to fight world war ii was to go off the 32:56 gold standard because this question you 32:58 know where how are you going to pay for 32:59 it where will the money come from the 33:01 last thing you want to do 33:02 is be trying is try to undertake 33:05 large-scale 33:06 spending where you quite literally have 33:08 to find gold in order to support that 33:10 kind of spending so countries always 33:12 suspend the gold standard in times of 33:14 crises and so we did that 33:16 and we started to fight world war ii um 33:19 and before that you had 33:20 fdr rolling out as you just said a whole 33:24 suite of new and expanded programs 33:27 to provide jobs and income and 33:30 retirement security 33:32 and that's what got us out of the 33:33 depression that's what started to 33:35 absolutely pull the us out of the 33:37 depression yes okay 33:39 so and that's right because you're in a 33:41 you're in the great depression and you 33:42 look around and you think wow how could 33:44 we have done that at a time when the 33:46 nation was 33:46 at its poorest when there was no money 33:49 and the answer was 33:50 well the federal government had that 33:52 special power that the rest of us don't 33:54 have 33:54 it could commit to spending all of the 33:58 money that was necessary to establish 34:00 and support these programs 34:02 and that generation tried to protect us 34:04 so that the great depression would not 34:05 happen again 34:06 and actually what happened during the 34:07 clinton years correct me if i'm wrong is 34:09 that they started 34:10 whittling away at some of those 34:11 protections such as glass-steagall is 34:13 that correct 34:14 glass-steagall welfare programs yes 34:18 okay so now so so world war ii and you 34:21 know 34:21 this was my parents generation but some 34:23 of these young people it's like i don't 34:25 think they teach enough american history 34:27 in in 34:27 in school anymore and i think knowledge 34:29 of history really helps you connect the 34:31 dots 34:32 in 1952 dwight eisenhower was elected 34:35 president and he's a republican he was 34:37 the supreme allied commander during 34:39 world war ii 34:40 talk to me about the taxes 34:43 the way people were taxed in the 1950s 34:46 how high the taxes were how that built 34:50 the middle class the higher taxes is 34:53 what built the middle class and you talk 34:54 in the book about how 34:56 taxation is not just about funding 34:59 it's about the distribution of wealth 35:01 for the protection of democracy 35:04 uh louis brandeis's line uh the late 35:06 supreme court justice that you can have 35:08 large amounts of money 35:09 concentrated in the hands of a few or 35:12 you can have democracy you cannot have 35:14 both 35:15 because and i so i'd like to hear about 35:17 that about what the tax was 35:19 in the 50s that so built the middle 35:21 class so that people can understand how 35:23 it was in 1980 35:24 when they started cutting all those 35:26 taxes among the rich that that was the 35:28 way 35:28 that we started decimating the uh middle 35:31 class and creating all the income 35:32 inequality 35:34 okay well i'm going to do i'm going to 35:35 do this a little bit differently because 35:37 the 35:38 the argument that i put forward in the 35:40 book would not be compatible 35:42 with the idea that you need higher taxes 35:45 in order to fund more generous robust 35:47 social safety nets and 35:49 a good economy right so even when we 35:52 talk about repealing that 35:53 you're talking about putting back in the 35:54 middle class tax cuts so 35:57 yes in terms of what you just said i 36:00 have never heard you 36:01 argue against tax cuts for middle-class 36:02 people 36:04 no i i have no allergies 36:07 in just generic terms right but you can 36:11 do 36:11 you can do for working people what their 36:14 bosses won't do 36:16 in the sense that you can leave them 36:18 with more money at the end of every week 36:19 or at the end of every month right 36:21 through through a tax cut whatever 36:23 you do to leave more income 36:26 in people's hands pockets bank accounts 36:29 at the end of the year 36:30 whether it comes from your boss giving 36:32 you a pay raise or whether it comes from 36:33 the government taking less 36:35 uh in the form of federal income tax 36:37 let's say 36:38 um you know it's pretty hard to 36:39 distinguish those dollars sitting in 36:41 your bank account one 36:42 one got there one way one got there the 36:44 other way both improved your material 36:46 well-being right your financial 36:48 well-being 36:48 so the way that i think of it marianne 36:51 is this like 36:52 the the currency issuer the federal 36:54 government sits outside the system 36:55 if we imagine an excel spreadsheet 36:59 and you're the federal government and 37:01 you can make entries you have all those 37:03 columns and all those rows 37:05 and in those little boxes are 37:07 corporations like 37:08 boeing and raytheon and caterpillar and 37:11 you know wall street banks and also in 37:13 those little cells 37:14 are working people right and small 37:17 businesses and so forth now 37:19 the federal government has the power to 37:21 tax and spend 37:22 so one thing it can do is go into that 37:26 spreadsheet 37:26 and change the numbers in working 37:29 people's 37:30 accounts and change them up so you have 37:33 more 37:33 in your account it can also go in and 37:36 change numbers 37:37 down in the accounts of the big 37:39 corporations and the accounts of the 37:41 wealthiest people jeff bezos and 37:43 you know the waltons and so forth their 37:44 numbers can come down 37:46 but i don't think of it as the more i 37:49 pull your numbers down 37:50 the more it allows me to push other 37:53 numbers up 37:54 in other words i don't need the wealthy 37:56 they're not my piggy bank i don't 37:58 i don't rely on them to fund a better 38:01 economy 38:02 a more generous safety net and so forth 38:05 i'm doing it for a different reason 38:07 so what we have what congress has when i 38:10 say the power of the purse 38:11 i'm saying congress has the ability to 38:14 commit to spending money 38:15 it does not have that's it yeah it 38:18 doesn't it didn't have 2.2 trillion what 38:20 it had was the ability to order it up 38:22 from the fed 38:23 okay get ready we're asking for it you 38:25 make you manufacture it it comes 38:27 digitally you make it 38:29 for us so and i think that's such an 38:31 important point because you know you 38:32 often hear democrats and liberals and 38:35 they talk 38:36 about you know it's robin hood right 38:38 what are we going to do for the poor 38:40 well we're going to go to the very 38:41 wealthiest people in this country and 38:42 ask them to 38:43 quote unquote pay their fair share we 38:45 want money from you 38:47 so that it in my spreadsheet i'm 38:50 transferring money it's a transfer i 38:51 take it out of your account and i put it 38:53 in a poor person's account what i'm 38:55 saying is don't think of it that way 38:57 just think of it as two separate 38:59 entities like two separate acts 39:01 i'm going to tax you because you have 39:03 too damn much 39:05 and it isn't about you paying more than 39:07 you're paying your fair share 39:09 i'm taxing you because i believe that 39:11 actually you're taking more than your 39:12 fair share and that's why you have so 39:14 damn much 39:15 so we are going to rebalance the 39:17 distribution of wealth and income in 39:18 this country 39:19 in part only in part we're going to do 39:21 that through the tax system we're also 39:23 going to get there through things like 39:24 patents and protections that 39:26 give you the ability to extract more and 39:28 more over time 39:29 trade laws and other ways but we're 39:31 going to drink a new distribution 39:33 strengthening we're going to do 39:35 pre-distribution so that you don't end 39:37 up with it all in the first place i 39:38 don't want to come back to you year 39:40 after year after year 39:41 peeling away some of your ill-gotten 39:43 gains i want to deal with 39:45 why you're getting so much in the first 39:46 place why is it all rising 39:48 up why is it all you know uh 39:50 concentrating in your hands 39:52 so i'm gonna make my debits to your 39:54 account with the aim 39:56 of you know rebalancing the distribution 39:59 of wealth and income i'm going to make 40:00 credits 40:01 to other accounts why because i want to 40:04 pay for infrastructure i want to do 40:06 uh support college i want to spend more 40:08 on health care i want so 40:10 i'm going to you know think about the 40:12 government's capacity to tax and spend 40:15 as separate acts that allow me to 40:18 in a very kind of strategic and 40:20 deliberate way 40:22 um you know tax where i want to tax and 40:25 spend where i want to spend without 40:27 concern 40:28 for matching the two up right because 40:30 i'm not my 40:31 my goal is not to balance taxing and 40:33 spending i'm not trying to balance the 40:34 budget i'm trying to balance 40:36 conditions in our broader economy i want 40:38 a balanced economy 40:40 and a balanced democracy you know i read 40:42 a book several years ago called 40:43 the gardens of democracy and in talking 40:46 about what we're talking about here 40:47 today 40:47 it said imagine if all the blood in your 40:50 body 40:51 went to one arm the blood has got to 40:54 circulate 40:55 money has got to circulate if you stop 40:57 circulating money 40:58 you stop circulating power and you 41:00 completely 41:02 demolish the whole idea of all men are 41:04 created equal you demolish the whole 41:05 idea 41:06 of what supposedly is the ideal of the 41:08 american dream is that everybody gets a 41:10 shot 41:11 if you've got so much money in the hands 41:13 of a few then only a few can easily have 41:15 access to health care 41:16 only a few have easy access to education 41:19 only a few 41:20 have easy access to the kind of capital 41:22 with which to to 41:23 manifest further uh material dreams in 41:25 their lives 41:26 so it's a deeper it's a deeper it's not 41:28 just an economic 41:30 injustice it's undemocratic that we that 41:33 we have come to this point and it's a 41:35 40-year 41:36 slide right 40-year slide which has 41:39 produced this massive transfer of wealth 41:41 into the hands of one percent 41:43 now it's bad policy that produced it 41:46 it's 41:46 good policy that will unwind it you talk 41:48 in the book about the fact 41:50 that you yourself were heading the 41:51 budget committee but it was for the 41:53 democrats and the democrats weren't in 41:54 power 41:55 so you just sat there being frustrated 41:57 because there was so little you could do 41:58 now we have a democratic president 42:02 what are your thoughts about what should 42:04 happen now what are your thoughts about 42:06 what will happen now first of all can i 42:07 ask your thoughts about janet yellen 42:09 uh being treasury secretary i think that 42:11 in the moment 42:12 um i don't anticipate from her or 42:16 from the administration at least not in 42:18 the very short term 42:20 the kind of pivot that we got pretty 42:23 soon 42:23 after obama became president that shift 42:26 toward you know budget tightening and 42:28 speeches that 42:29 included phrases like you know american 42:32 families hard work and people are 42:33 tightening their belts and we got to do 42:35 the same i i hope that doesn't happen 42:37 um i hope that you know he's got some 42:40 people around him giving policy advice 42:43 that 42:44 are saying things like you know we have 42:45 the capacity to do everything that is 42:47 necessary to provide the fiscal support 42:49 that this economy will need 42:51 not just in the months ahead but in the 42:53 years ahead you know you've brought up 42:54 fdr a few times 42:56 and i would just say um as a reminder 42:59 you know fdr had this idea about 43:01 the three r's right there was immediate 43:03 relief because the great depression 43:05 so you had a crisis we got to have 43:06 relief so we hear a lot of people 43:08 talking now about a relief 43:10 package but on the other side of relief 43:12 when we get this virus fully tamed 43:15 we're going to need one of the other r's 43:16 and the one of the other ours is the 43:18 recovery 43:19 and that's where fight president-elect 43:21 biden had uh 43:22 run on a platform that said look i want 43:24 to spend two trillion dollars on climate 43:26 change 43:27 i want to put 700 billion dollars into 43:30 manufacturing 43:31 i want to put 775 billion dollars into 43:34 education 43:35 and and family right care and so 43:38 that's a lot of money and he's talking 43:40 about you know making strategic 43:42 investments in the economy 43:44 that will help the economy through the 43:46 recovery phase of the business cycle 43:49 and then there's this third r that's 43:50 kind of hanging out there 43:52 that i think is important and i don't 43:55 know that we're going to get 43:56 to that r and that is reform and that is 43:59 where fdr 44:00 goes okay it's not just about you know 44:03 short-term relief and some recovery 44:05 support it's about 44:06 taking this economy that is in shambles 44:09 it had fallen apart 44:10 and he was like you know you got two 44:12 options if the if the pieces fall apart 44:14 you can pick them up 44:16 and try to assemble them the way they 44:18 were put together before 44:19 or you can recognize that in the crisis 44:22 there 44:23 lies an opportunity to put the pieces 44:25 back differently to assemble them 44:28 differently okay so i really want to 44:30 slow down because i want i want i want 44:31 everybody really clear what we're 44:32 talking about 44:33 fdr said there were three pieces relief 44:36 recovery reform 44:38 so relief is like get people at twelve 44:39 hundred dollar check immediately just so 44:41 that they won't be evicted 44:42 just so that they can pay their children 44:44 although i think we're putting a lot on 44:45 twelve hundred dollars there by the way 44:47 then we're talking about okay we think 44:49 that with with 44:50 with the biden administration we have a 44:52 better shot 44:53 at at relief and then as certainly if we 44:57 win the two senate seats in the um in in 45:00 georgia 45:01 okay then recovery and what you have 45:04 said here is extremely important 45:06 recovery is okay how are we going to get 45:08 back to being able to 45:09 breathe easy and then you said what your 45:12 concern is and mine also stephanie 45:14 is real reform which many of us are 45:17 concerned 45:18 about not getting given the fact that 45:20 this is a president-elect who's also 45:21 said nothing will fundamentally change 45:24 now i i love the line from the nobel 45:27 prize winning for literature 45:28 author russian author alexander 45:30 solzhenitsyn he said a writer is a 45:33 government 45:33 in exile so think of a parallel universe 45:38 this is a government in exile and in 45:39 this government you 45:41 are the secretary treasurer of of 45:43 treasury 45:44 i want to hear from you you've got the 45:47 job 45:48 what do we do for relief what do we do 45:50 for recovery 45:52 and what do we do to reform 45:56 job is yours let us know yeah so 46:00 um so you know it's interesting i had 46:02 this conversation 46:03 with uh donald trump's former head of 46:06 the national 46:06 economic council so the senior economic 46:09 advisor inside the white house gary cohn 46:11 who came from goldman sachs who worked 46:13 in the trump administration for a brief 46:15 period of time 46:16 i ended up on a panel recently at 46:18 bloomberg panel with gary 46:19 and the moderator of the panels asked 46:22 almost the identical question they 46:24 didn't make me treasury secretary but 46:25 the question was 46:26 you know what we do much and what do we 46:28 do right so uh 46:30 so i said listen i'm going to give you 46:31 my conservative numbers 46:33 my conservative number for relief is 46:36 2 trillion that is my conservative 46:38 number 46:39 my conservative number for recovery is 46:41 three trillion 46:43 um remember that we've talked we had 46:45 this conversation just a little while 46:46 ago about you know the limits 46:48 and inflation being the relevant 46:50 constraint we're talking now about five 46:52 trillion dollars 46:53 yeah yeah definitely recovery but it's 46:55 not just about how much or to the money 46:57 goes 46:57 to exactly so i don't want to just hear 46:59 numbers i want to hear 47:01 relief for who recovery for who so how 47:04 is that money 47:05 how is it spent specifically to make it 47:07 relief and recovery for the people of 47:09 the united states 47:10 so you know to the extent that you can 47:13 be 47:13 strategic and targeted you should always 47:16 do that right 47:17 it's in moments of crisis that we often 47:19 don't do a very good job like the cares 47:21 act 47:21 right a lot of that money found its way 47:23 into the hands of you know large 47:25 retail chains and others that people 47:27 said well that wasn't really a small 47:28 business was it sort of thing 47:30 um so yeah you want to get the money to 47:33 people who are in distress 47:35 so who are the people who are most in 47:38 distress 47:38 it's the people in the lower tiers of 47:40 the income distribution okay 47:42 we can have a debate we know actually 47:44 we've got the data and we can look by 47:46 by decile so by 10 the bottom 10 percent 47:49 the next 10 percent the next all the way 47:50 up to the top 10 percent what did you do 47:52 with your 1200 47:53 check people at the very top 47:57 saved or paid down debt they didn't 47:59 spend a lot so it doesn't work like good 48:01 stimulus 48:02 but as you get lower into the income 48:04 distribution 48:05 that money becomes a critical lifeline 48:07 for people relief 48:08 or stimulus get them recurring checks 48:12 mary and i'll say let's do recurring 48:14 checks 48:15 this one off twelve hundred dollars you 48:17 said 48:18 that doesn't cut it and it doesn't cut 48:20 it right so because we 48:22 we know yeah this this data that came 48:24 out i think yesterday in the washington 48:26 post that says 48:28 um 13 million americans 48:31 by january are going to have uh 48:36 missed rent payments that are coming due 48:38 and utilities 48:39 the average of which five is almost six 48:42 thousand dollars almost six thousand so 48:45 what is your 1200 do 48:46 so recurring payments hold on slow down 48:50 slow down ro khanna says 2 000 a month 48:53 for every adult 1 000 for every child 48:56 and for that to go retroactively to the 48:58 beginning of the pandemic 48:59 and from here forward is that what you 49:00 would do 49:02 probably not i mean when what i worry i 49:05 guess a little bit about 49:06 is that sending two thousand dollars to 49:10 every person independent of 49:13 their place in the income distribution 49:16 you know for my taste i suppose i would 49:19 try to be 49:19 uh somewhat more targeted in that okay 49:22 but okay 49:22 listen i i'm not gonna throw uh yeah 49:26 a huge objection over that okay before 49:28 we go on from that 49:30 ubi going forward are you a supporter 49:34 um it depends what one means by ubi 49:39 and that's always the trick for me 49:40 because you you have to come and tell me 49:43 is it really 49:44 universal people will say ubi but then 49:47 if you ask them to describe what they 49:49 have in mind 49:50 you'll often find out that they aren't 49:52 talking about giving money to every 49:53 single person so it's not really 49:55 universal 49:56 and then if you say well how much are 49:58 you talking about 49:59 sometimes they'll say you know four 50:01 thousand five thousand dollars they'll 50:02 bring up alaska 50:04 the alaska dividend which is you know 50:06 seventeen hundred twenty two hundred a 50:08 year depending on oil revenues 50:09 that's not a basic income a basic income 50:12 ought to be enough 50:12 to subsist on to cover the basics of 50:15 life 50:16 so you got to get somebody to divulge 50:19 what their version of a ubi 50:21 looks like and the other thing for me 50:23 marianne is i always approach 50:24 every policy recommendation in exactly 50:28 the same way 50:28 my question is this what problem are we 50:30 trying to solve what problem are we 50:32 trying to solve 50:33 right now in the midst of a pandemic 50:35 when people can go out and work 50:36 sending people money makes really good 50:39 sense to me 50:40 right and providing recurring support 50:42 for people in distress 50:43 in this moment because of the nature of 50:45 the crisis makes perfect sense 50:47 beyond that people want jobs people want 50:50 and i want there to be a program 50:54 that ensures the way fdr did that 50:56 there's a job available guarantee people 50:58 who want to re-enter right to be in the 51:01 workforce to be at work to 51:03 um yeah i i i think that's really 51:06 important so i'm not opposed 51:08 categorically to a ubi i think it can 51:10 exist alongside 51:12 programs in public service employment 51:14 and things like that 51:16 i just always want more details um 51:19 wouldn't the green new deal uh 51:21 help create part of the jobs guarantee 51:25 it absolutely could and i think that you 51:28 know uh 51:28 many of the people who have sort of 51:31 mapped out early on 51:33 gave us a blueprint for a green new deal 51:36 included things like in fact said it 51:38 must include 51:40 a job guarantee there must be a way for 51:43 people whose jobs are going to have to 51:45 transition 51:46 away from working in fossil fuel 51:48 industries and so forth to other types 51:50 of employment 51:50 you can just say well good luck with 51:52 that i hope jobs will pop up for you you 51:55 have to make those jobs happen 51:57 that's absolutely so important when we 51:58 talk about shifting from a war economy 52:00 to a peace economy 52:02 when we talk about moving from a dirty 52:03 economy to a clean economy it's so 52:05 important that we remember 52:06 that during that transition the people 52:09 who in 52:09 most of those cases already displace 52:12 skills 52:13 and resources that can be repurposed but 52:16 we must make a proactive effort 52:18 to make sure that that happens so we've 52:20 gone from relief to recovery 52:22 uh do you have anything more to say 52:23 about what recovery should look like in 52:25 your mind right now as we move forward 52:28 well i think you know so here's where uh 52:30 president-elect biden is talking about 52:32 climate 52:33 that could be an important part and it 52:35 also 52:36 chips away a little bit at reform too 52:39 right but the recovery 52:40 spending a couple of trillion dollars uh 52:43 dealing with climate change 52:45 will produce more jobs infrastructure 52:47 and manufacturing 52:48 will support uh and create new jobs and 52:51 so 52:52 uh that's important the piece that i 52:54 like that i worry will get left 52:56 out of any legislation in the early 52:58 years as we 53:00 focus on recovery is that sort of uh 53:03 education 53:04 and care work piece and that gets us to 53:06 reform right 53:07 how can we reform the economy in ways 53:11 that you know when all of these 53:14 front-line workers 53:15 lost jobs and when kids were told you 53:18 can't be at school you have to stay home 53:20 and do this virtual learning we know 53:22 that millions 53:23 of women dropped out of the labor force 53:26 they 53:27 they left because they are the 53:28 caretakers overwhelmingly and so 53:31 they're at home with the kids and where 53:33 is the support 53:34 for a transition like that and how do we 53:37 transition those that want to transition 53:39 back 53:39 into work so supporting you know um you 53:42 know 53:43 things like uh paid family leave we've 53:45 got to 53:46 establish paid family leave we've got to 53:49 do something on child care people have 53:51 no child care 53:52 options to turn to child care is 53:54 completely unaffordable in this country 53:56 we have an aging population we're going 53:58 to need to do more 53:59 with health care and with elder care and 54:02 so 54:02 all of that gets us 54:05 more to fundamental reforms in the 54:08 system 54:09 you know so many of these things that 54:10 we're talking about taking care of 54:12 children better taking care of the 54:14 elderly better 54:15 universal health care uh improved 54:17 infrastructure 54:19 uh free college these are you know those 54:22 who are against these things here 54:24 project on to them that they're far left 54:26 socialist radical left 54:28 when in fact in canada and in most 54:30 countries in europe 54:31 these are just middle of the road ideas 54:33 that 54:34 don't have any particular left-wing 54:36 connotation whatsoever 54:38 and we we have come to a point you know 54:40 when you when you 54:42 once again going back to your subtitle a 54:43 people's economy the very idea of 54:45 something for the people 54:47 and then the those rat who they are the 54:50 radical the radical right 54:51 calls it socialism uh 54:55 i don't know it's so important that 54:57 people understand that that's nothing 54:58 other than propaganda 55:00 used to make them feel that it's not 55:03 okay for them 55:04 to expect anything from the us 55:06 government and you see people who are in 55:08 such 55:09 desperate circumstances who keep as it's 55:12 often said voting against their own 55:13 economic interests 55:15 uh because they have been convinced that 55:17 this big 55:18 bugaloo of socialism uh would be 55:21 destroying our freedoms 55:23 if they were to elect people 55:26 who use the resources of the government 55:28 on their behalf 55:29 but then on the other hand stephanie as 55:31 you yourself said so often the democrats 55:33 are so cowardly 55:34 that they themselves will not stand uh 55:37 for the things that are so needed i 55:39 think it's interesting even what you 55:40 just said about the green new deal 55:42 and trillions of dollars spent on 55:44 climate change this will stimulate the 55:46 economy because it will create jobs 55:49 it breaks my heart when i see how many 55:51 democrats won't show up for these things 55:54 nancy pelosi not bringing uh prominent 55:56 giant paul's 55:57 bill for medicare for all to the floor 56:00 etc 56:02 um progressives feel like they don't 56:05 have anywhere to go right now um 56:09 and and i think that's what's going on 56:11 away from they run away from the 56:13 adjectives the 56:15 the slogans the descriptions that 56:17 republicans 56:18 plaster on them you know if it's defund 56:21 or if it's 56:22 um planning or if it's rationing or if 56:25 it's socialism whatever these words are 56:27 they get terrified and they run away 56:29 from them and you know you look where we 56:31 are right now we have vaccine coming 56:32 thank god right 56:34 and vaccines are being rolled out we've 56:36 we've seen the images i'm sure everybody 56:38 has seen 56:38 in the uk people are beginning to get 56:40 vaccinated how does that happen 56:42 hey the government is going to bear 56:45 responsibility for coming up with a 56:46 strategic way for it 56:48 plan because planning is important 56:50 because without a plan you have what 56:52 chaos 56:53 right it's good to have a plan planning 56:54 is a good thing but this idea that we 56:56 don't want a planned economy 56:58 we don't we want planning in our economy 57:01 every business room 57:02 i'm sorry every uh corporation has a 57:05 room somewhere in the building called 57:07 the corporate boardroom and you know 57:09 what happens there planning 57:12 right yeah not only about this this is 57:14 plenty of a plan 57:15 planning strategy right yeah and let's 57:18 be clear this is a planned economy it 57:19 was planned by the koch brothers 57:21 and uh their other billionaire 57:23 billionaire friends 57:24 well i think we don't want to get 57:26 worried about you know those words and 57:27 and we're going to roll out a vaccine 57:29 and we're going to do what we're going 57:30 to ration it early because everybody 57:32 can't have it 57:33 so somebody has to you know have a 57:35 strategic plan 57:36 and we have to prioritize and we have to 57:38 figure out you know who's first in line 57:40 and how we're going to distribute this 57:41 thing 57:42 and you know that's it that's okay 57:44 that's what we 57:45 want and should expect of our government 57:47 step up come up with a plan 57:50 administer the plan take care of the 57:52 people prioritize those who are most 57:54 vulnerable and 57:56 you know well that's what trump refused 57:58 to do and what horrified so many people 58:00 and already we're seeing um 58:03 president-elect biden appointing his 58:05 health 58:05 committee etc and clearly they quote 58:07 unquote have a plan and will further 58:09 have a plan 58:10 something else about what you just were 58:12 saying a couple of minutes ago 58:14 about the power of words and how 58:15 democrats run away from them 58:17 the republicans are far more 58:19 psychologically strategic and in a way 58:22 sophisticated if they say something and 58:24 you don't like it 58:25 they say it again and if you don't like 58:28 it they say it again 58:29 and if you don't like it they say it 58:31 again and after a while you just get 58:32 tired of fighting it 58:34 democrats you don't like it and they get 58:36 off equipped and they can oh okay then 58:38 we'll use different words 58:39 um sometimes i think the words are 58:41 unwise such as defund the police 58:43 actually but 58:44 but the general ideas that progressives 58:46 stand for 58:47 none of us should be afraid to utter and 58:49 at this point what's happening for 58:51 progressives in this country is we get 58:52 blocked by democrats before we even have 58:54 a chance to get blocked 58:55 by republicans which i'm sure makes the 58:57 republicans just delighted 59:00 well you know stephanie i i thank you 59:03 not only 59:04 for being on on this podcast but for all 59:06 you're doing for all of us 59:08 because if in order to move forward we 59:11 have to articulate what that way would 59:13 be 59:14 and i think that you're you're sort of 59:16 every man's economist you know 59:18 every woman's economist right now you 59:20 are explaining you know and you and i 59:22 met 59:22 when i was uh just saying can you just 59:24 explain to me basics that 59:26 that i just don't understand and uh you 59:29 are doing now for the whole country 59:31 what i had the great uh good fortune of 59:34 having you do 59:34 for me let me break it down to you for 59:37 those of you who don't understand 59:39 how this thing works and you know 59:41 complexity 59:43 is the way they obfuscate that's what 59:46 they've 59:47 done that they make it sound like this 59:49 is too complicated i think particularly 59:50 i love that you're a woman because 59:52 that it particularly there's this 59:53 misogynist if you you you don't 59:55 understand because 59:56 the economic and political systems that 59:59 dominate were devised before women even 60:01 had a 60:01 voice in the public realm and 60:03 particularly when it comes to raising 60:05 children we were 60:06 that was considered a woman's job so the 60:09 idea of arguing for things like you you 60:11 were talking about earlier child care 60:13 uh paid sick leave etc 60:16 women didn't even we never the twain 60:18 didn't even meet of a woman's concerns 60:20 about children 60:21 and economics and that's what i think if 60:23 we move from an economic to a 60:24 humanitarian bottom line 60:26 my own opinion is that we need to 60:28 completely 60:29 uh move into a massive front ending of 60:32 resources in the direction of children 60:33 10 years old and younger 60:35 and i'd love at some point have a 60:36 further conversation with you about that 60:39 so i i can't thank you enough for what 60:41 you're doing for all of us you're 60:42 explaining things we need explained 60:44 you're simplifying things we need 60:45 simplified um 60:47 and more more than anything else you're 60:48 saying there is another way 60:50 it doesn't have to be this way it's all 60:51 just a a 60:53 myth that's what you call a deficit myth 60:55 it's a deficit myth 60:56 and we should stand on what our hearts 60:58 know to be true and that's that the real 61:00 deficit 61:01 is in our compassion for one another and 61:03 in the use of the 61:04 uh tools of government to actually serve 61:06 the people do i have it right did i get 61:08 it right 61:10 i'd like to put that in the book 61:13 anytime you always say better than i do 61:16 no no no no i've read your book 61:17 so i know i know better than that yeah 61:19 anything else you want to add 61:20 before i let you go on to your 61:22 fantastically uh 61:24 brilliant life well i mean i'll say 61:27 thank you 61:28 again uh for the opportunity and i love 61:30 getting a chance to visit with you look 61:32 i'll i'll just say that 61:34 i am very very worried about where this 61:37 economy 61:38 is today and where it's heading and you 61:40 know i have a 61:41 a lot of um i guess hope inside about 61:44 how the 61:46 special elections in georgia turn out i 61:48 think so much is 61:49 riding on that um and i think that 61:52 democrats 61:53 you know they have got to deliver and i 61:55 just hope that the message is getting 61:57 through 61:57 and that um soon to be president 62:00 biden is going to be surrounded by 62:02 enough people who also understand this 62:04 because i think that 62:06 you know donald trump is going to be out 62:07 there he's going to be texting every 62:08 single day 62:10 of uh president biden's administration 62:13 he's going to be reminding everyone of 62:14 every jobs report every move in the 62:17 stock market everything he thinks he can 62:19 do 62:19 to to paint a picture of how dire 62:22 conditions are how the you know economy 62:25 isn't improving things aren't improving 62:26 and 62:27 and guess what if they don't improve 62:29 materially for the bottom half of people 62:31 in this country 62:32 i i think democrats are in real trouble 62:35 in the midterms and i worry a lot about 62:37 2024 because i worry that we're going to 62:39 get you know 62:40 somebody worse than trump next time and 62:42 i just hope that 62:44 you know the party understands that and 62:46 that they're prepared to stand up and do 62:48 bold things and 62:49 and this is not this is not the moment 62:51 for timidity this is not the moment for 62:54 incremental um you got to go big and you 62:58 got to deliver 62:59 oh stephanie i so agree with you i think 63:01 that biden must present 63:03 a massive infusion of economic hope and 63:05 opportunity 63:06 into the life of the average american 63:08 and do it quickly 63:09 and not incrementally uh these are 63:11 revolutionary times 63:12 it's either going to be a revolution of 63:14 love and justice or a revolution of 63:16 violence and pain and i totally agree 63:18 100 63:19 with everything you said if he does not 63:21 go in there and act 63:22 boldly and present that kind of massive 63:25 relief to people 63:26 um and recovery possibilities for 63:28 people's lives then i couldn't agree 63:29 more 63:30 we will be in even bigger trouble in 22 63:32 people already lining up for it 63:34 and god help us um in 2024. 63:37 so i hope that the biden people will be 63:39 calling you often 63:40 and uh i know the rest of us will and i 63:42 can't thank you enough 63:45 god bless you darling 63:48 so that was my conversation with 63:50 stephanie kelton i hope that you enjoyed 63:52 it as much as i did and that you'll look 63:53 at her book 63:54 the deficit myth it's so important for 63:57 us all to become 63:58 literate in these conversations so that 64:00 we can push back 64:01 at the various forms of idiocy that 64:04 assault us day after day after day 64:06 in order to almost brainwash the 64:08 american people that uh it's wrong for 64:10 us somehow 64:11 to expect what citizens and other 64:13 advanced democracies 64:15 receive and expect and whose governments 64:18 know that they better give those things 64:20 to people 64:21 or they would have a real problem on 64:22 their hands and now 64:24 it's time for ask marianne as you know 64:27 you can write into marianne 64:29 cast media cast with a k and i will 64:31 answer 64:32 you know i want to thank all of you who 64:33 are sending in these incredible 64:34 questions 64:35 um very very deep and nuanced and i so 64:38 appreciate it i can only get to a few 64:41 based 64:41 you know in comparison to how many come 64:43 in but thank you very much for um 64:46 sending them okay here we go this is 64:49 from 64:50 william marianne i was a reluctant 64:53 supporter at first 64:55 but after reading your book a politics 64:57 of love and watching you speak more in 64:59 depth 65:00 i am a full-fledged advocate for you and 65:02 your incredible ideas 65:04 thank you william i've always been 65:05 struck by the complete 65:07 lack of nuanced discussion of schooling 65:09 and education in american politics 65:12 things like racial integration funding 65:14 of schools public versus 65:16 charter over-testing students receive 65:18 some deserved attention 65:20 but one subject near and dear to my 65:22 heart is always pushed aside never given 65:24 any serious thoughts 65:25 thought universal arts education 65:29 your book around page 140 hints at the 65:31 inequities in our system 65:33 but i would be fascinated to hear you 65:35 discuss the importance of arts education 65:38 and the incredibly good investment it 65:40 likely is for the soul of this country 65:42 while also cutting down on social ills 65:44 related to poor childhood education 65:46 wow william i could not agree with you 65:50 more so let's talk first of all one of 65:52 the big problems we have in the united 65:54 states is that our primary funding for 65:56 education 65:57 is property taxes so what that means 66:01 is that children who live in advantage 66:03 communities 66:05 will for the most part get a much better 66:08 education public school education 66:10 because the schools have so much more 66:11 money to spend children who live in 66:14 less advantaged neighborhoods are less 66:17 likely to get the higher quality 66:19 education 66:20 now one of the things that i feel is an 66:21 extremely important 66:23 fundamental shift for the 21st century 66:26 is that we begin to massively 66:29 front-end our resources 66:32 in the direction of children the the 66:35 potential in the brain of children 66:37 is is the gold that we need it's it's 66:40 more significant 66:41 than the than the oil on the ground 66:43 that's for sure it's more 66:45 uh powerful than anything that the sky 66:47 can bring us in the wind or the sun 66:49 it the the brain power of children the 66:53 brain power of adults as well but the 66:54 whole idea of the actualization 66:56 of full actualization of brain power 66:58 that's what we should be thinking about 67:00 in terms of problem solving for the 21st 67:02 century that begins of course 67:04 in children's education now not only is 67:08 there that funding issue 67:09 one of the things i talked about when i 67:10 was running for president is that every 67:12 public school in america 67:14 should be a palace of culture learning 67:17 and the arts you named it william what 67:20 happened several years ago of course 67:21 everything became about stem 67:23 everything about cain became about 67:26 science and technology and 67:28 math engineering and what this did 67:31 was that it moved whatever financial 67:33 resources were 67:34 there in the direction of those subjects 67:38 too often at the expense of the 67:41 humanities 67:42 and at the expense of the arts it's 67:44 unbelievable the schools you go into the 67:46 public schools 67:46 that you go into and unlike when i was 67:48 growing up and going to public schools 67:50 they don't have music classes anymore 67:52 they don't have arts classes anymore 67:54 and in far too many of them they don't 67:55 even have civics classes in american 67:57 history classes anymore 67:59 now this is really really bad and it's 68:02 really bad for the reasons that you 68:03 touch on 68:04 william the development of the right 68:06 side of the brain 68:08 and the development of culture and the 68:10 development of an 68:11 understanding of history is what creates 68:14 a whole person 68:16 in order for us to be a well-governed 68:19 democracy 68:20 if in fact we hold to the ideal 68:23 that there is self-governance in this 68:25 country that it is the people themselves 68:27 who are the main engine 68:29 of governance then we have people we 68:31 need people who are not so easily 68:33 bandoled 68:34 we need people who understand history we 68:36 need people who 68:37 appreciate culture we need people who 68:39 understand and participate in the arts 68:40 why 68:41 because literally it expands sections of 68:44 the brain 68:45 it expands aspects of our personhood 68:48 so that's why when i talked in my in my 68:51 campaign i always said that 68:52 every school in america should be a 68:54 palace of culture 68:56 and learning and the arts you know when 68:59 i was running 69:00 i went to these schools in south 69:02 carolina called the governor's school 69:05 and there are two of them there's a 69:06 governor's school in 69:08 the humanities and the arts and there's 69:10 a governor's school in science and math 69:13 and these are public schools i i'm not 69:16 sure but i think only 250 children 69:19 can attend tremendous tremendous 69:23 competition as you can imagine and just 69:26 walking down the halls walking through 69:29 the halls 69:30 having lunch there the food they have 69:32 the art 69:33 that these kids have developed that's 69:35 you know all over the walls 69:37 sitting in on classes and hearing what 69:40 these teachers are going on and on about 69:42 and i was like i want to go here i want 69:45 to come here 69:46 and to think what kind of a country we 69:48 would have 69:49 what kind of a country we could have if 69:52 every public school in america was this 69:56 and let's be very clear it's simply a 69:59 political decision 70:01 that it's not that way the needs of 70:04 america's children 70:06 are for the most part peripheralized in 70:08 this country why 70:09 by our political system why because 70:11 children aren't old enough to vote so 70:13 they're not a constituency 70:15 and children aren't old enough to work 70:17 so they don't they don't have any 70:18 financial leverage 70:20 and since financial leverage has way too 70:22 much influence in congress today 70:24 to an obscene degree where does that 70:27 leave children 70:28 and so it has to be people like you and 70:30 me william it has to be parents it has 70:32 to be concerned citizens people who care 70:34 about 70:35 not just children but the future of this 70:37 country and the future of this world 70:38 who come to realize this fundamental 70:41 change that's necessary 70:42 and i agree with you title totally about 70:45 the arts 70:46 and i have to tell you there are other 70:48 countries 70:49 that do so much better than we do this 70:52 has to do not only 70:53 with uh patronizing the arts in school 70:56 but even patronizing the arts in terms 70:58 of the 70:59 uh the arts councils and the things that 71:01 the that we pay for that our government 71:03 pays for 71:04 in terms of supporting the arts is a 71:06 small fraction 71:07 of what most european uh countries pay 71:09 for 71:10 so this is a this is an area where i 71:13 could not agree with you more 71:14 the more we have the conversation point 71:17 out the need for these things 71:19 this is like what we've been talking 71:20 about in this program earlier today 71:22 we have to be the imaginal cells we have 71:24 to articulate what's 71:26 possible americans have been trained to 71:28 expect too little 71:29 and i think when it comes to the arts in 71:31 school like i said i walk through public 71:33 schools and i go well when i was a kid 71:35 we had music classes 71:36 wow when i was a kid we had arts classes 71:38 wow when i was a kid we had drama 71:40 classes what happened 71:41 well when you go to the private schools 71:43 they're there when you go to the higher 71:45 end 71:46 public schools they're there but too 71:48 often 71:49 america's children in far too many 71:50 places are deprived of those things 71:52 deprived of a lot of things i shouldn't 71:54 be deprived of in our public schools 71:56 this should be front and center to what 71:58 all of us as citizens most care about 72:00 thank you so much i appreciate i 72:02 appreciate the question 72:04 okay now my next question is from terry 72:06 s 72:08 dear marianne your work has been so 72:10 influential to my life and worldview 72:12 thank you for all you do 72:13 thank you as a young woman who is in the 72:16 peacebuilding field 72:17 what is one piece of advice you would 72:19 give to me 72:20 not only for a successful career but to 72:23 make a real difference 72:25 i look up to you and i'm interested to 72:26 know what you would like to see the next 72:28 generation of peace building 72:29 practitioners 72:30 embody with love terry well 72:33 terry you probably know that i think 72:36 that the work you do 72:37 is absolutely uh critically important 72:40 for 72:40 the sustainability of our democracy and 72:43 our world 72:44 uh you stand for something that is so 72:46 significant this is why when i was 72:47 running for president 72:48 i supported a a department of peace 72:52 there is legislation that's never been 72:54 brought to the floor but for a 72:56 department of peace building 72:57 i think a lot of people simply don't 72:59 know what it means to 73:02 proactively wage peace so i want to take 73:05 this opportunity to make people know 73:06 that there are four factors which when 73:08 present 73:09 statistically increase the probability 73:12 of peace 73:13 and decrease the incidence of conflict 73:16 in an area 73:17 and this is as true in a corner of an 73:19 american city 73:20 as it is in another corner of the world 73:22 and that is number one 73:24 expanding educational opportunities for 73:26 children 73:27 number two expanding economic 73:30 opportunities for women 73:32 number three reducing violence against 73:35 women and number four ameliorating 73:37 unnecessary human despair 73:39 so all of you who are listening 73:42 know what terry already knows which is 73:45 that now you 73:46 know that there are specifics involved 73:48 in being as 73:49 terry calls it a peace building 73:51 practitioner 73:52 this is extremely important because we 73:54 should see large groups of desperate 73:56 people as a national security risk 73:58 why because desperate people especially 74:01 in groups 74:02 become more vulnerable to ideological 74:04 capture 74:05 by genuinely psychotic forces and this 74:07 has happened in our country 74:09 and it has certainly happened in other 74:11 places around the world 74:13 we now have a 760 billion dollar 74:16 defense budget some would say it's more 74:19 and we have a 74:20 40 billion dollar state department 74:22 budget and within the state department 74:24 are the peace building 74:25 agencies that we have well you can see 74:28 how much less money we spend on 74:30 peace building than we have uh than we 74:33 spend on preparing for war 74:36 but war is the absence of peace 74:39 peace is not the absence of war just 74:41 like sickness is the absence of health 74:44 health is not the absence of sickness 74:46 you have to proactively cultivate health 74:50 in order to prevent illness and you have 74:52 to proactively 74:54 wage peace in order to prevent reasons 74:57 for war 74:58 we have a particular problem in this 75:00 country because so many hundreds of 75:01 billions of dollars are made 75:03 on preparing for war there are not 75:05 corporate profits 75:07 for waging peace all there is is the 75:09 pathway to the possible survivability of 75:11 the human race 75:12 so terry is in a field where people are 75:16 underappreciated 75:17 people are undervalued and god knows 75:20 people are underfunded 75:22 so what i want you to know terry is that 75:24 not only myself when i ran for president 75:27 i talked about a department of peace and 75:29 tried to give more of a platform and 75:31 as i'm doing here today trying to give 75:33 shine more of a light 75:34 on what it means to be in peace building 75:37 humanitarian efforts 75:39 know that more and more people are doing 75:41 the same 75:42 you keep doing what you're doing terry 75:46 when i when you ask me what would i i 75:48 see you embody 75:49 obviously you don't do the work like 75:51 you're doing unless you already 75:53 embody a lot of compassion that's what 75:56 you're showing people 75:57 they're showing people just the that yes 76:00 we are here to help you build that well 76:02 yes we are here to help you 76:04 non-violently resolve that conflict 76:06 yes we are here to help you back on your 76:09 feet 76:10 after having been incarcerated yes we 76:12 are here 76:13 to help you take care of your children 76:15 when you go to work 76:17 yes we are here to help you become 76:19 gainfully employed in the midst of your 76:21 despair 76:22 that which helps build people's lives up 76:26 these are the things that build peace 76:29 this has to do with the change in 76:30 conversation 76:32 and each and every one of us terry it's 76:33 not so much what you need to embody 76:36 it's what those of us who hear from you 76:38 need to do 76:40 we need to expand our own conversation 76:42 and i hope that 76:44 by you're writing this letter people's 76:47 ears will have perked up 76:48 when you say what would you like to see 76:50 the next generation of peace building 76:52 practitioners embody 76:54 and what you embody to embody hope 76:58 that more and more of us know what 77:00 you're doing 77:01 and know the importance of what you're 77:03 doing and are going to do 77:05 everything we possibly can to give you 77:07 the kind of platform the kind of support 77:09 and the kind of funding that you need 77:11 to make the kind of difference that you 77:14 know when you're out there in the field 77:16 helping a child helping a woman helping 77:19 a man helping a human life repair 77:21 your front you're up close and personal 77:24 with human despair that's what my career 77:26 has been for over 30 years 77:28 up close and personal with people in 77:30 times of trouble 77:31 and knowing where would any of us be if 77:33 somebody wasn't there to help them 77:35 and seeing how how how many times people 77:39 are in despair because of bad public 77:41 policy 77:42 so i know 77:46 you know i i've looked to my to my life 77:49 and i've 77:50 asked myself often you know to whatever 77:52 extent my life has been successful 77:55 what were the factors that were the most 77:58 significant 77:58 in making it happen and in every single 78:02 case where i did that this is what i saw 78:05 somebody help me next one 78:08 most important somebody help me 78:13 third one somebody help me 78:16 yes i've worked very hard we all work 78:19 hard 78:20 but who among us aren't at some point in 78:23 life 78:24 dependent on the kindness of strangers 78:26 and that's what the peace builders do 78:28 the peace builders help people repair 78:31 what has been broken in their lives 78:33 that's the way we we pave a road 78:36 to peace in this world so extending 78:40 those educational opportunities 78:41 economic opportunities ameliorating 78:44 human despair 78:46 this is what it means to be part of a 78:47 peace building community and know that 78:49 i'm impressed 78:50 and i know that a lot of people who are 78:51 listening right now are impressed that 78:53 this is the choice that you have made in 78:54 your life 78:55 this is not you know when you say my 78:58 career goal 78:59 is to be a a peace building practitioner 79:01 that's not somebody saying my goal is to 79:03 go make millions and millions and 79:04 millions of dollars that's not going to 79:06 necessarily happen 79:08 but it does mean i'm going to pave the 79:10 way to a sustainable world 79:12 you are leading the way and uh 79:16 i just want you to be at peace in the 79:20 knowing 79:21 that not only do you have the gratitude 79:23 of those who's 79:24 who's uh who are directly helped by your 79:27 services 79:28 but you certainly have the gratitude of 79:30 me and i know many people who are 79:31 listening right now 79:32 some of whom are saying for the first 79:33 time wow 79:36 i didn't even know how important that 79:38 was 79:39 but they know now god bless you and on 79:42 behalf of all of them 79:43 and all of us i say thank you for what 79:45 you do 79:48 okay uh that was our podcast for today 79:51 i'm so grateful that you were here i 79:53 hope that you heard things that were 79:55 of value to you and i hope that if 79:57 you're enjoying the podcast you will 79:59 please go on to itunes and 80:00 rate and review because that's the kind 80:03 of thing that will allow us to stay on 80:04 the error and i want to stay on the air 80:06 i very much enjoy these conversations 80:09 with these 80:10 amazing people uh who write books and 80:13 think thoughts and 80:14 direct projects that make such a 80:16 difference in people's lives 80:17 and i hope you feel as i do that just 80:19 hearing about those things 80:21 makes a change in yours much love to you 80:24 see you next time 80:31 [Music] 80:41 you 英語 (自動生成)