| ||||||||||||||||||||||||
2分
To fix the world, show everyone your paycheck
Best New Ideas in Money
so i think there are two reasons why
norwegians would go looking up what
other people make and pay in taxes one
is of course morbid curiosity but the
other i think is
it's a great way to gather information
especially if you're in a work situation
and you would like to know what other
people are making it empowers you as an
employee
[Music]
welcome to the best new ideas in money a
podcast from market watch i'm stephanie
kelton i'm an economist and a professor
of economics and public policy at stony
brook university and i'm jeremy ilshan
the editor of market watch the best new
ideas and money has been a feature on
our site for a few years and i'm
thrilled to be here with you as we
expand the franchise with this the first
episode of our podcast
this show has at its heart an optimistic
premise that money can be a force for
good in the world we're going to explore
innovations in economics finance
technology and policy that rethink the
way we live work spend save and invest
remember money itself is just an idea
humans totally made it up and since we
made it up we can change it we can
upgrade its operating system to be
faster fairer and more efficient money
can be a medium of world change
and though that is optimistic we're not
here to talk fantasy the ideas we're
looking at in this show are real world
solutions that are being taken seriously
and even being put into practice
[Music]
this week we're looking at salary
transparency
here in the us people seem willing to
share the most embarrassing and bizarre
intimate details of their personal lives
on social media but when it comes to
talking about how much money we make we
turn into secret agents that's not true
everywhere in some scandinavian
countries like norway they have a day
each year where they release salary and
tax information for everyone the
american media has dubbed this jealousy
day
[Music]
so the government will sort of announce
when the tax lists are ready but the way
that you'll probably
wake up and know that this is happening
is because there will be some very
splashy tabloid stories
that's hilda rest dad who we heard from
at the top of the show she's an
associate professor of international
studies in oslo norway and sees her
country's stance on transparency as the
total opposite of american attitudes
americans get very awkward when you talk
about pay and salary maybe because they
think it sort of reflects their personal
value as human beings or something
what's funny to me about this is that
while the u.s is known for being a
money-obsessed culture it's still really
taboo to talk about our own income
this seems to be changing there's a
generational shift i've noticed
happening especially with younger people
they're much more open to talking about
their own salary than they were even a
few years ago
yeah i have a family member who is in
college right now and she's getting
ready to graduate and like so many other
juniors and seniors she's gone out she
started interviewing for positions and
she started to get some job offers and
one of the first things that she did was
to talk to her peers about the kinds of
job offers they're getting and they're
all comparing starting salaries they're
definitely willing to talk to each other
about the money that they potentially
can make from that first job they seem
much less shy about just bringing up the
money questions sooner so stephanie what
do you think the odds are we'd ever have
something like jealousy day here in the
u.s
it feels like a heavy lift i don't know
when the u.s might be ready for
something like jealousy day i think
there are so many ways that we can
already infer a lot of information about
the incomes that our co-workers and our
neighbors and our friends you know there
are ways to kind of figure out without
actually knowing the numbers how much
money people are bringing in relatively
speaking so in terms of publishing the
actual numbers on everyone in the
country i sort of doubt it but maybe
we're moving that direction
american culture and norwegian culture
are
staggeringly different they're so
different
so what you guys apparently call
jealousy day
we just call patriotic tax payday
it's just a day when the government
releases
the list of everyone in norway who pays
taxes and how much they earn
i should add that jealousy day is what
americans call this in the countries
that do this it's about justice and
transparency not jealousy
they're going to start calling it knows
who neighbor day so if we did something
like that here in the u.s it wouldn't
necessarily tell you
a whole lot about how rich somebody is
right i mean many people with a lot of
money don't actually have high earnings
they get their money from
stocks they've inherited it they have a
business they're drawing rental income
or dividends and interest so you could
publish data telling everyone what each
other's salaries and wages are but that
wouldn't really paint a complete picture
certainly not in a country like the
united states where wealth's pretty
unequal and so much of that inequality
comes from factors other than salary and
wages
it's these pay gaps that make salary
transparency such a compelling issue for
americans to face up to
we know that the us has one of the
widest gaps in wealth and income of any
country on the planet
and the fact that we're secretive about
our incomes probably won't help
alleviate those gaps anytime soon
some people say that by opening up all
our books we can make income fairer for
everyone and this could particularly
help reduce the racial and gender pay
gaps
i don't think we're going to see a
jealousy day coming out of the federal
government here in the u.s but what we
are seeing is that salary secrecy which
has historically worked to the
employer's advantage is starting to
change
not just because workers are demanding
more transparency companies are starting
to volunteer more information in part
because the labor shortage we're
experiencing under covid is encouraging
them to get creative about attracting
workers and that's definitely something
new employers right now they're bowing
down to workers in the hottest job
market in decades so pay hikes free
iphones hybrid work schedules college
tuition covit has had a huge impact on
the job market a lot of people are
reevaluating how and where they want to
work employers are having trouble
filling jobs in sectors across the
economy
and that's changing the way they
approach potential employees
some companies are discovering that if
they're more transparent with their job
applicants it can help them attract
workers in a really competitive labor
market
so there's different types of
transparency that's dr valeria alterman
she's a professor of management at the
university of miami
maybe about how much do i get paid how
much does my co-worker get paid for
doing the same job
or it could be about how much i got in
my bonus at the end of the year versus
how much my co-worker got as a bonus
the second one is really about the way
that the pay was decided oftentimes
organizations have specific formulas for
how they decide the bonus for a
particular employee or particular level
of employees so this pay process
transparency is what we call it refers
to again displaying or being transparent
about the way that it was calculated
transparency doesn't mean everyone gets
paid the same amount no matter how good
they are at their job or how much
experience they have it just means that
employers effectively have to justify
the disparity in pay for people in the
same title it can't be done in secret
alterman says that when it comes to the
kind of information workers can get from
their employers it's not just about what
ends up on your paycheck having this
information readily available can act in
two ways if we know that what we are
getting paid is fair if what we're
getting paid is comparable to what
somebody else is getting paid doing the
same job and it can have positive
impacts on how we do our work how much
we care about our co-workers and it can
also foster a climate of integrity and
trust and fairness within the
organization
at the same time when this information
is transparent it's more likely that the
organization will have smaller pay gap
sizes
according to alterman salary
transparency doesn't only help with
employee satisfaction and motivation but
it can potentially create more trust
between employees and the employer
that sounds like a pretty big positive
when it comes to company culture
but if transparency were always better
in life we'd all be walking around naked
sometimes as you'll hear there's a case
for clothing the truth just a bit
from an organizational perspective i
think it's also a double-edged sword pay
transparency can backfire especially
because having this information
available to employees can lead to some
envious behavior if you realize that you
might not be getting paid as much as
your counterpart then you may start
displaying some negative attitudes
toward them the climate in the
organization may start to get a little
tense and at the same time i think it
can also backfire for the employer
because if you are
being very explicit about how pay is
calculated how pay is distributed among
your employees you don't want to have
any kind of differences between
employees and this kind of paid
compressions might lead to your better
employees leaving
after the break more on the potential
pitfalls of salary transparency and why
in spite of those some places are making
it the law
the world needs software to work
perfectly so dynatrace combines cloud
observability and ai ops to help teams
simplify cloud complexity operate more
efficiently and drive better business
outcomes see how at dynatrace.com
before the break we talked with
professor valeria alterman about how pay
transparency can influence feelings of
security and trust but other researchers
think it can be divisive
people have
enormously helped the perceptions of
their own contributions to an
organization
which psychologically is very very
healthy todd zanger is a business
professor at the university of utah and
he brings up a potential downside for
workers who find out what their
colleagues make
if you as an organization are trying to
link pay and performance
then when you make individual pay highly
transparent you make it front and center
people
you know rapidly compare
pay and as a consequence of that they
often discover they're not as wonderful
as they thought they were at least they
discovered that they're not perceived to
be as wonderful
as they thought they were
this sort of rabid comparison can have
negative effects on individual
well-being
as well as the organization's well-being
the more
visible you make pay
the more it heightens the focus on pay
and as a consequence of that the
organization's much more likely to
flatten pay just make it more equal
because it's so hard to justify
these differences given people's
healthy egos
so he's saying that the research
indicates that this could help companies
suppress wages because it's easier to
keep salaries low than to explain
increases for some workers over others i
guess it could it'll also potentially
force employers to justify the wages
that they're paying to their different
workers so if an employer lures a worker
away from a competitor and can justify
paying the higher wages based on years
of experience or the unique talents of
that particular individual
strikes me as a pretty easy thing to
defend if you're you know lower salaried
workers find out about it and come to
you asking for answers this also might
help with the squeaky wheel problem that
people who bring up salary with their
bosses more often are probably the ones
more likely to get raises
some people feel more shy about it and
over time if they miss out on those
repeated raises they end up in a much
worse situation a policy like this once
it's in place i think starts to
normalize and make a person like that
more comfortable going to the boss and
raising the question of a pay increase
it's sort of like there's a game theory
component to this
if only some people have the information
they can work it to their advantage
in any salary negotiation there's one
party usually the employer who has more
information than the other they know
what the budget is what the maximum
they're willing to pay would be and the
job candidate doesn't
if there's full salary transparency
though it changes that dynamic
completely
you could really make the argument that
it gives a leg up to not only
prospective hires but current employees
and not every employer is going to be
happy about that another complication
from the employer's perspective is that
laws about transparency don't just vary
from country to country they can vary
from state to state colorado is the
first state to require pay ranges
benefits and descriptions of other
compensation to be included in a job
posting chris patrick is an attorney in
colorado where he practices management
site employment law
colorado is the first to require what
i'm calling opportunity transparency the
easy example is if you're a colorado
employer a restaurant
if you have a general manager position
available at any of your restaurants all
of your colorado employees are entitled
to know of that
have an opportunity to apply
and are entitled to notice of the pay
and benefits associated with that job
it does not matter
if you know you're only going to hire an
assistant manager
your servers are entitled to know about
it your bartenders are entitled to know
about it your receptionists your
greeters your hosts are entitled to know
about it
[Music]
some businesses in colorado say this
could lead to extra work and slow down
the whole hiring process
it's unlikely congress is going to pass
some wide sweeping bill mandating salary
transparency that would level the field
between states but in canada the
government has just implemented that
kind of law in the hope of narrowing the
pay gap
hi my name is lauren and i'm a data
scientist at a tech and consulting
company
lawrence based in toronto where starting
this year companies will have to start
reporting much more information about
salary data
and this information will be reported to
the public
for lauren the fact that companies often
don't provide salary information when
they're hiring is frustrating
i don't want to look at this job that
requires a bachelor's degree a master's
degree and like three years or four
years experience
and then go to the job interview and
they're like oh yeah it's for forty
thousand dollars and you're like this is
a waste of my time like just tell me up
front
recently though interviewing for a job
even before this law took effect lauren
was surprised how forthcoming some
companies actually were
so one time i applied for a position at
a tech company and their whole kind of
mo as a company is pay transparency
and so when i was going through an
interview process with them they started
saying if you live in toronto this would
be your base pay so if you lived where
it was a higher rent or whatever they
had a calculation to calculate your
salary the second thing she probably
said to me is this is the salary range
we're considering for this position how
do you feel about it and i was just very
taken aback it was probably fifteen
thousand dollars more than i thought
that i would ask for so in that case pay
transparency is huge
and it also helped me when i went on to
future interviews but i'm feeling way
more comfortable asking for that
listening to lauren whether she took
that job or not having the knowledge of
what she could expect to make put her in
a great position to know what she could
ask for and it sounds like even gave her
a boost of confidence
covet has reset a lot of expectations
about our work lives the flexibility of
remote work which jobs we consider
essential the kinds of work conditions
we're willing to tolerate and what kind
of meaning we expect to get from our job
it'll be really interesting if the way
companies hire and how workers negotiate
and share information becomes one of
those resets
and while we're probably not going to
end up with a european style jealousy
day of our own hilda restad says arming
yourself with more information is never
a bad thing
my advice would be information is power
and the more information you have the
more power you have
[Music]
thanks for listening to the best new
ideas and money you can subscribe to the
show on apple spotify or wherever you
listen to your podcasts if you like what
you heard please leave us a review and
if you have ideas for future episodes
drop us a line at best new ideas and
money at marketwatch.com
thanks to elizabeth buckwald valeria
alterman chris patrick and lauren to
learn more about salary transparency
head to marketwatch.com i'm stephanie
kelton and i'm jeremy olshan the best
new ideas in money is a podcaster market
watch produced by best case studios
devon maverick robbins and suzanne
meyers are our producers and our
associate producers are honolee boots
lockhart and ali gallo
the executive producer for best case
studios is adam pinkis and melissa
hagerty is the executive producer for
marketwatch
stephanie kelton is an economist and a
professor of economics and public policy
at stony brook university and not part
of the market watch newsroom
we'll be back next week with another new
idea
／／／／／／／／／／／／／
Best New Ideas in Money
21分
Jeremy Olshan
https://twitter.com/jolshan
@jolshan
Head of Content @Marketwatch
; Managing
Editor, Barron's Group; dad of twin boys; husband of professor; John
Oliver
punchline: http://marketwatch.com/story/how-my-1…
marketwatch.com2009年2月からTwitterを利用しています
訂正
返信削除https://twitter.com/jolshan
Jeremy Olshan
返信削除@jolshan
Head of Content @Marketwatch
; Managing Editor, Barron's Group; dad of twin boys; husband of professor; John Oliver punchline: http://marketwatch.com/story/how-my-1…
marketwatch.com2009年2月からTwitterを利用しています