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Kelton： 51:47~53:02
uh as Fadhel said this is not something that you can wake up tomorrow morning and declare yourself liberated and a monetary sovereign. this is a this is a long-term strategic plan. i mean as an academic i hate those two words strategic plan we all we all want to run when we hear those two words.
but the reality is that countries do have to think strategically and make the kinds of investments that Fadhel was just describing in their industrial capacity to achieve.
the kind of sovereignty across um industries like like um energy and food and so forth. and it's just it's just gonna take time you can introduce a currency and you can reintroduce in some countries cases in the case of nauru you can introduce a currency. you can launch a currency from scratch.
and you can build that currency up over time and slowly displace the foreign currency that is currently dominating right transactions and exchange and payment systems and so forth.
but it's a it's a long-term project probably fatal has something to add to that.
ケルトン： 51:47~53:02
Fadhelが言ったように、これは、明日の朝起きたら解放されて貨幣主権者になっていると宣言できるようなものではありません。 私は学者として、戦略的計画という2つの言葉が嫌いです。
しかし、現実には、各国は戦略的に考え、先ほどFadhel氏が説明したような投資を産業能力の向上のために行わなければなりません。
しかし、現実には、各国が戦略的に考え、先ほどFadhel氏が説明したような産業能力への投資を行い、エネルギーや食料などの産業にまたがる主権を獲得しなければなりません。そして、それには時間がかかります。
そして時間をかけてその通貨を構築し、現在の取引や為替、決済システムなどを支配している外国通貨を徐々に置き換えていくことができるのです。
しかし、それは長期的なプロジェクトであり、おそらく運命の人が何かを付け加えてくれるでしょう。
Kelton：
62:17 you see 18 months into the pandemic and 62:19 all the zooming in 62:20 it would be 62:22 you know second nature to unmute 62:24 yourself but it's still not 62:25 uh yeah sure so look i'm very 62:28 sympathetic i like the question very 62:30 much i think that um growth in and of 62:33 itself is never the right objective of 62:36 economic policy and i think that so much 62:39 of the obsession with growth 62:42 around the world has to do with our 62:45 obsession with debt i mean if you think 62:48 about this you know governments becoming 62:51 obsessed with debt to gdp ratios and 62:53 buying into this idea that in fact 62:57 growth is the escape route to a debt 63:00 crisis if your debt to gdp ratio 63:03 is elevated the solution very often uh 63:07 the perceived solution is to just grow 63:10 the economy so that the denominator in 63:13 the equation massively increases 63:16 shrinking the ratio and that that is how 63:19 many governments uh think they are going 63:22 to keep the debt sustainable escape a 63:24 debt crisis and so forth and so i think 63:27 there there is a way in which mmt is 63:29 very important here in you know 63:31 resetting our understanding of 63:34 government debt and finance and you know 63:37 first i i think it's important and i 63:38 don't think it's come up yet but 63:40 governments that issue their own 63:41 currency never have to borrow it from 63:43 anyone right even the decision to sell 63:46 government bonds is a choice when you're 63:49 issuing bonds denominated in your own 63:51 currency and if you choose to offer 63:55 investors 63:56 an interest interest-bearing form of 63:58 your currency which is really what 63:59 government bonds are just interest 64:01 bearing dollars interest bearing yen 64:03 interest bearing pounds you can also set 64:06 the interest rate that you are willing 64:08 to pay on any bonds that you choose to 64:11 offer 64:12 so 64:13 that understanding i think helps us move 64:16 away from the growth obsession but then 64:19 as fodo's been talking about now you 64:21 know for some period of time uh there 64:24 are countries that are indebted deeply 64:27 in currencies that aren't their own and 64:29 for them this obsession with 64:32 generating revenue through exports to 64:34 grow the economy grow revenues to 64:37 satisfy foreign creditors is not as easy 64:41 to disregard and i think there are 64:43 things the international community can 64:44 do to help countries you know work out 64:48 um their their debt restructuring and 64:51 other sorts of things that that we can 64:53 and and i think probably should do 64:56 but uh in terms of just saying the the 64:59 key to success and the way to measure 65:01 the success of any economy is to look at 65:03 its real gdp growth rate and the bigger 65:05 that number the more successful that 65:07 economy 65:08 is almost by definition is clearly not 65:10 the way to go and it's not sustainable.
...
ケルトン：
62:17パンデミックの18か月後、62：19すべてのズームが62:20になります。62：22自分でミュートを解除する第2の性質を知っていますが、まだ62:25ではありません。私は非常に62:28同情的です私は質問が非常に好きです62:30私は62:33自体の成長自体が62:36経済政策の正しい目的ではないと思いますそして私は世界中の62:42の成長への執着は、私たちの62:45の債務への執着と関係があります。実際、62：57の成長は、債務とGDPの比率が63:03に上昇した場合、債務の危機への脱出ルートであるという考えです。63：07認識されている解決策は、経済を63:10成長させることです。そのため、63の分母は次のようになります。13方程式は大幅に増加し、63：16比率が縮小します。これが、63：19の多くの政府が、63：24の債務危機から逃れるために、63：22に進んでいると考えているためです。63： 27 mmtが63:29非常に重要である方法があります。63：31は63:34の国債と金融の理解をリセットし、63：37は最初に重要だと思います。まだ出てこないと思いますが、63：41の通貨を発行する63:40の政府は、63：43の国債を売却するという決定でさえ、63：43から借りる必要はありません。 49あなた自身の63:51通貨建ての債券を発行し、63：55の投資家に63:56の利子付きフォーム63:58を提供することを選択した場合、あなたの通貨は実際には63：59国債はただの利子です64:01ドル利子円64:03利子ポンド64:06あなたが64:11オファーすることを選択した債券に支払うことをいとわない金利64:06を設定することもできます64:12だから64:13理解することで、64：16を成長への執着から遠ざけることができますが、64：19は、fodoが今話しているように、64：21しばらくの間、64：24の国があります。 64:27は自国ではない通貨で深くお世話になっており、64：29は64:32への輸出を通じて収益を生み出し、経済は64:37に成長し、外国の債権者を満足させるというこの執着はそうではありません。無視するのは簡単です64:41そして私はあなたが知っている国がうまくいくのを助けるために国際社会が64:44できることは64:43あると思います64：48ええと、彼らの債務再編と64:51他の種類のこと64:53と私はおそらく64:56を行うべきだと思いますが、64：59の成功への鍵とメジャー65:01経済の成功は、65：03の実質GDP成長率を調べることであり、65：05の数値が大きいほど、65：07経済65:08がほぼ定義上、65：10ではないことは明らかです。行く方法とそれは持続可能ではありません。持続可能ではありません。持続可能ではありません。
...
／／／／／／／／／／／／
....
21:28~ 36:11
Kelton:
i am happy to be with you thank you so
much for including me in this
uh very important conversation i'm i'm
really delighted to
be able to join you and to share uh some
thoughts with you so
uh i am going to take just a little bit
of time and give you sort of a broad
brush stroke i know this for many of you
is not the first time
that you will have had a sort of
thumbnail sketch uh of mmt i understand
that this is well integrated into this
forum
but for those who might be joining for
the first time. uh let me just give you a
very brief introduction
so i want to tell you that um for me you
know this journey to where i am today
having recently written and published a
book that attempts to lay out some of
the core tenets of mmt and to bust and
address a lot of the myths and
misunderstandings surrounding the nature
of money the role of taxes and
government borrowing debt and deficits.
uh
you know i lay this out in the book this
is a journey that that started for me
about a quarter of a century ago i was
studying economics at cambridge
university
so i was in graduate school
and i ended up encountering the work of
someone named warren mosler a name that
is probably familiar to a number of you
but probably not to everyone
so warren isn't really an economist i
mean he has an undergraduate degree in
economics
but he spent his career
uh working in financial markets and so
warren will sometimes describe himself
as a a an insider a financial insider.
and i think it's that experience that
allowed him to see the kinds of things
that
most of the people frankly in my
profession were simply missing um they
they did not have the understanding at
the operational level sort of the
mechanics of how financial markets work
and and that warren had and so he i
think just could see things more clearly
so what he did was he wrote up his ideas
first in a little book or a little
pamphlet that he called soft currency
economics now what the heck is that soft
currency what is that well he intended
it to be
sort of the
opposite of i guess a hard currency so a
soft currency
not like a gold standard not a fixed
exchange rate system but a floating fiat
currency which post 1971 in the
post-bretton woods era most of the
world's countries had floated their
currencies and so warren's thinking went
basically that the monetary system
international monetary system and the
monetary systems that were in place
across
much of the world had fundamentally
changed and yet the discourse hadn't
kept up it hadn't evolved with the
change and that most of the dialogue the
debates the economic models and theories
were in some sense still
written for and being taught to students
like me while i was at cambridge as if
we were still operating under the old
system with a hard currency with a gold
standard sort of way of thinking
and uh and warren thought that that was
wrong and he followed up the little book
soft currency economics with this book
which was warren's attempt to do
more or less what i did in my book which
is to do some myth busting to correct
the thinking this book is called the
seven it's a mouthful the seven deadly
innocent frauds of economic policy and i
think he makes this available i think
there's a pdf that you can find and
access for free online so if you're
interested
uh and and so warren laid these ideas
out
and i can tell you that when i first
encountered them
i
thought that warren was completely wrong
i mean why wouldn't i right i'm studying
at one of the premier universities in
the world
i'm being taught something that is
essentially counter to basically
everything that warren was saying in his
first little book and and later here
and
i mean i have the benefit of being
trained by some of the the top
economists in the world and they were
saying the opposite of what warren was
arguing
so
why would i
uh
why would i
believe warren and yet there was
something about the way warren presented
his arguments and i think in some ways
it resonated with me because i had a
background uh as an undergraduate in
finance and accounting and warren
presented his arguments
using
a an accounting framework he would show
you his work he would put the debits and
credits in place walk through the
balance sheet entries and you know it
turns out when you do that
you're really opening yourself up
because the reader can easily spot the
flaw in the argument when the balance
sheets don't balance when there's a
breakdown in the logic and it's laid out
right there clearly for you to find and
so i knew he was a smart guy a
successful uh investor clearly a bright
guy the arguments were leading to a
place that i was uncomfortable with
because again it was the opposite of
what i was learning and yet i couldn't
shake it i there was something about
uh what he was saying that rang true and
i couldn't find a flaw in the argument
and i started studying this sort of
thing as a graduate student i went on to
write a dissertation that was called
something like
understanding government finance under
different monetary regimes or something
along those lines and basically
what i did was arrive at a place where i
was comfortable with warren's arguments
because i work them through for myself
and i did it in part by getting on the
phone and reading uh talking to people
at treasury and at the fed and reading
you know sort of operations manuals you
know how does it all work and figuring
this stuff out and putting it to the
test and and uh you know stress testing
warren's arguments i guess and i managed
to convince myself that warren had it
right and that most of
my profession had it backwards and that
was i can tell you very jarring
initially for me
um but i think it's more important to
try to get things right
than to fit in with the you know
conventional wisdom and
that comes sometimes at great cost right
um you you definitely
put yourself out there as maybe a
heretic or as someone who's uh not
orthodox in their thinking and and that
can lead other people to not want to
take you as seriously but i think what's
happened with us over the last now
quarter century or so that we've been at
this is that
our credibility has only been enhanced
and a big part of the reason that so
many are now
taking mmt and the insights seriously is
because we have amassed a track record
over the last 25 years or so of getting
i think so many of the big things right
while watching can more conventional
approaches to economics really just miss
the mark um widely whether it comes to
you know um the introduction of the euro
the the importance of retaining a
sovereign currency of being a monetary
sovereign and the consequences of
abandoning monetary sovereignty these 11
countries initially that gave up their
currencies and
decided to use the euro starting in
january of 1999
warren mosler and a number of other uh
mmt economists were
very quick to weigh in on this even
before the currency was officially
introduced i was writing about it when i
was doing my phd dissertation and other
mmt economists were publicly warning
that this was the kind of a thing this
move to give up sovereign currencies and
adopt a common currency without a full
fiscal union
was the kind of thing that would leave
countries vulnerable in
the wake of an economic downturn unable
to act
with sufficient force using fiscal
policy that
they would be borrowing in what was
effectively a foreign currency opening
them up to debt crises i mean these are
the kinds of things we were saying and
people by and large thought that you
know we must be crazy uh this was just
about market efficiencies after all
right these countries were doing a large
volume of trade with one another so
what's the harm in giving up a common uh
giving up a sovereign currency in favor
of a common currency it just makes the
whole thing more efficient to operate
with one currency and so we were um not
alone but it was pretty lonely uh to be
taking the positions that we took
back in the you know later part of the
1990s and of course it turned out to be
correct and then again with the great
recession with quantitative easing we
took views that were very different
reinhardt and rogoff famously published
paper warning of debt crises and tipping
points when debt to gdp ratios reached
90 percent you know scaring hell out of
governments around the world and causing
a number of governments to pivot
to austerity
including i would argue here in the u.s
after the financial crisis we had a very
premature
pivot to fiscal restraint after passing
one
somewhat significant piece of
legislation
to support the economy after the great
uh recession started and then everyone
got cold feet because we're looking
across the pond at what was happening in
greece and spain and portugal and
ireland and italy and so forth saying
this could be us
and uh mmt was saying mmt economists
were saying of course that can't be us
right we operate with a sovereign
currency so
you know we we understood this from a
very early stage it was always important
to us to think about
policy space to think about how much
capacity right a nation has to operate
and orient its economic policy
to the maximum interest and benefit of
its people
can a country do that can you achieve
full employment while keeping inflation
low and manageable and how can you do
that and uh you know for for decades now
we have relied around the world
countries have relied on central banks
to essentially take the economic
steering wheel and bear
most if not all of the responsibility
for steering the economy and mmt has
always
seen flaws and problems with that
approach uh too much of a burden has
been placed on central banks the world
over we favored at a minimum a better
policy mix but certainly much more
reliance on fiscal policy
to deliver on
the full employment and price stability
objectives and so i'll just kind of
close by saying for us it was always
important to look at a country and
assess that country's capacity on an
individual basis right because monetary
sovereignty is not a black or white on
and off switch you don't either have it
or not have it you have
policy space some countries have more
policy space some have less some
countries have a whole lot more than
they recognize and therefore then they
take advantage of and that's harmful
it's harmful in terms of the suffering
and the economic costs and the social
costs and the environmental costs that
are born by populations because
countries
believe and operate as if they are
constrained in that sort of old fixed
exchange rate gold standard framework
and they think they don't have the
policy space to act they've been told
that financial markets could quickly
turn against them if their debt ratios
reach a certain level
um that they've got to borrow from
private savers in order to finance
spending and that the bigger the deficit
gets the more intensive the borrowing
becomes and that drives up interest
rates and leads to crowding out of
private investment slower growth and all
that stuff over time uh and that has
caused governments to hold back right to
be uh
[Music]
what to restrain policy
in ways that is detrimental okay so we
look and and you heard this i think in
the opening video and i'm just going to
close by saying think of a spectrum
right where countries that have what we
could imagine to be a high degree of
monetary sovereignty countries like the
us but certainly not just the u.s
countries like japan and the uk
australia canada new zealand china many
countries have a lot of
policy space their monetary systems are
set up
to allow that right to have a floating
exchange rate issue a fiat currency
avoid borrowing in foreign currencies
and i know fado will talk more about
other kinds of um things that give rise
to a greater degree of fiscal space of
policy space things like food
sovereignty energy sovereignty and so
forth but as you change your monetary
system and make it more restrictive as
you peg a currency or move to a hard
fixed exchange rate or outright adopt
another country's currency
um you are sacrificing
policy space you're sacrificing the
monetary sovereignty and with it a lot
of the capacity
to make those investments in your
economy that are life enhancing and so
um i'm i feel like i've gone on
perhaps too long so i'm going to pause
and i know there will be time for
discussion
thank you stephanie this was very
helpful so i'm gonna i'm gonna build on
this and connect to some of the uh
challenges that ambassador moses um uh
mentioned in her uh opening remarks
and i'll start
pretty much where you started stephanie
in grad school when i was
learning all of this stuff learning the
traditional approach to economics and
learning the mmt and post keynesian
institutionalist approach to economics
and especially money and money and
banking as as somebody who grew up in a
developing country in tunisia and in the
global south
my immediate attention was to
you know how do we take these
um
this analytical framework and apply it
in the context of the global south with
uh with countries that have
substantially different uh challenges
than say the united states japan and
canada and that's been kind of my
journey over the last 20 years or so
working on adapting and adjusting uh the
the mmt framework to the development
challenges and i wasn't in initially
interested in climate change
you know per se or agriculture or
renewable energy or any of those things
other than kind of casual interest not
not in the sense of academic and policy
interests but my interest in money and
development led me straight
to the issues of food sovereignty and
energy sovereignty because they're
interlinked so for example when we think
about that spectrum of monetary
sovereignty that uh dr kelton mentioned
um a few minutes ago think about the
the the components that actually
determine how much
uh how much monetary sovereignty a
country can can have and and it's
important to recognize that monetary
sovereignty is not something that you
declare as a government it's something
that you acquire with strategic
investments with with hard work
so think of countries that have
the capacity to issue their own currency
czech that's a country like the us japan
canada and so on uh a country that can
collect taxes denominated in the same
national currency check that's point
number two very important
but most importantly it's a country that
only issues bonds or issues debt
denominated in its national currency not
in foreign currencies in other words to
avoid borrowing and promising to pay
back in a foreign currency that's what
we call external debt debt denominated
in foreign currencies and this is where
you see most developing countries
have a structural problem where they
constantly accumulate larger and larger
amounts of
external debt denominated in dollars and
euros in japanese yen and so on
so when i started looking at this i'm
wondering what is the thing that forces
a country to borrow in foreign
currencies when you start digging deeper
into the challenges you recognize that
there are structural trade deficits for
most developing countries which are
driven by three major components number
one
developing countries in general rely
heavily on food imports because they
don't have food security they don't have
food sovereignty number two they rely
heavily on energy imports and that
constitutes a huge component
of their of their trade deficit and as a
result their external debt and this is
by the way true even for countries who
were big exporters of oil and fossil
fuels why because they export crude oil
and then they import the refined
petrochemicals like gasoline and
kerosene and and other petrochemicals
that they need for for economic
development because you can't consume
crude oil is useless you have to export
it to a country that has the refining
capacity which will then uh allow you to
import gasoline and kerosene so you're
essentially exporting the low value
added content material crude oil and
you're importing the higher value-added
content petrochemicals like gasoline and
kerosene and so on so that's the second
structural weakness then the third one
is an industrialization structural
weakness whereby developing countries
over time
tended to specialize
in
uh assembly line type of manufacturing
in other words low value added content
of manufacturing which means you have to
import the capital the
the technology the equipment the
intermediate goods the components
and the fuel to fuel your industrial
development in order to export low value
added content so in in that space the
only way to compete is essentially by
racing to the bottom in terms of cost of
labor in terms of environmental
standards labor standards and so on
which is yet another structural trap so
when you have a trade deficit this is
the the key point that i'd like people
really to
to follow here because this is the real
constraint when you have a structural
trade deficit year after year it forces
the value of your currency downwards
relative to the dollar relative to the
euro so when your currency is weaker
when your currency depreciates relative
to major currencies everything you
import the next morning becomes more
expensive so you're literally importing
inflation and it's extremely sensitive
because you're talking about food price
inflation and fuel price inflation and
in many many countries to this day we
see food riots and social and political
instability associated with this kind of
imported inflation in other words the
best way to fight this type of inflation
and these structural weaknesses is to go
to the roots of the problem by
developing a strategy for increasing the
degree of your food sovereignty your
food security by producing it
domestically increasing the degree of
your energy sovereignty because you
can't really run any economy anywhere in
the world without food without energy
these are the basic foundations before
you start thinking about international
trade and export-oriented things you
have to build the solid foundation first
to protect and insulate your economy
from the risk of imported inflation
which weakens the country and as a
result forces the country into immediate
band-aid solutions if you're if you're
not dealing with the long-term uh
structural issues the band-aid solution
is to borrow money in order to subsidize
food subsidize fuel
in order to artificially fix your
exchange rate relative to the dollar
relative to the euro and this has been
the trap that most developing countries
has struggled with for for decades but
then the mainstream solutions to these
traps
to me are actually mechanisms that
further enforce those traps and i'll
list them quickly so that we we
understand what what i'm talking about
many uh mainstream economists and
development agencies tell you in order
to get out of this poverty trap you need
to
generate more export revenue so export
faster bring foreign direct investment
to fuel more exports well the problem is
in order to export you have to import
the intermediate goods the capital you
have to
import the high value added content and
export the low value added content you
have to import even more fuel to
industrialize your economy so you're
constantly weakening
your economy as a result because you're
not really moving up the ladder so to
speak to produce high value-added
content they tell you rely on tourism
bring millions of tourists they'll bring
you dollars and euros and that will
allow you to pay for your food imports
and your
debt and so on the problem is when you
bring millions of tourists you have to
feed them so you add more food imports
and you have to transport them heat and
cool the hotels so you end up further
importing even more fossil fuels and
more food so you're structurally again
in that trap
so all of these traditional policy
solutions whether it's you know free
trade driven or tourism-driven or
export-led all of these have reinforced
those traps and have accumulated further
and further external debt and as a
result weakened the economic
monetary sovereignty of those countries
and as a result it also weakens your
political sovereignty in the
international community in other words
you can't really walk away from a
negotiation table as a small developing
country if it means the next day your
people will not have food or fuel and
you're going to have social and
political instability but if you do have
food security energy security and
resilience to these external shocks then
you can be
more selective in terms of your
international agreements you can set
your own terms
and you can walk away from a negotiation
table and what i've been trying to
articulate for a number of years now
that it's
even easier to do it when you have a
block of developing countries thinking
in terms of resilience
resilience-focused economic development
as opposed to the traditional model of
extractive economic development and and
death-driven
economic development and this becomes
and i'll close with this this becomes
extremely important given the climate
challenges that we're facing today
because the climate challenge is not
just a technological or technical
challenge we have lots of technology but
the problem uh to some extent is
changing the economic engine that
produces the pollution that produces the
extractive
that reinforces these extractive
mechanisms
and
and it means rethinking
how we finance the transition from the
old engine of economic development to a
new engine of economic development how
to do it in a just way because when you
think of who's been responsible for most
co2 emissions since the industrial
revolution it's clearly the global north
it's not the the global south it's not
developing countries but who's on the
front lines of climate change it's the
global south primarily when it comes to
which countries have the largest fiscal
capacity the highest degree of monetary
sovereignty it's the global north when
it comes to which countries have
access to technology that is
transformational and when it comes to
the impact on climate change it's again
the global north so we have a collective
responsibility to redesign the global
financial architecture redesign the
economic engines that we've been using
globally in order to accelerate the
transition
to a green and resilient economy not
just in the global
south but but also on the global north
and with that i'd like to open it up for
uh questions and and comments and i'd
like to uh hear also from ambassador
moses
and dr kelton if they have any follow-up
comments uh here nigel would you like to
lead us into the q a fantastic yes and
absolutely invite stephanie to join us
again and ambassador moses and there's a
great question in the q a which might be
a good place to start
which is from
someone who is in africa and we have
guests i think from every continent
today which is fantastic and some of
them are up very late so thank you for
staying up late and he says i've been
wondering how we can convince western
businesses to change their approach from
an exploitative one to one which really
supports inclusive development and i'm
paraphrasing slightly and you know one
example of this is the proposed green
hydrogen project in namibia which i've
been reading about another i know that
you're close to fidel is what is
happening or not happening in tunisia in
relation to renewable energy so that's
kind of the first part of the question
and then i think if we can take it to
the world of naru which of course
doesn't have its own currency it's using
australian dollars and it's got you know
is there a pathway to recovering
monetary sovereignty so maybe we should
start with the specifics of you know
projects in africa and
is there a way to get commercial
businesses to support them and how and
then come to the
the recapture of monetary sovereignty
challenge
very very good question
i'll i'll start with the with the
discussion with the question on on green
hydrating and uh and kind of the role of
business in in in this uh in this space
um
there's there's a lot of interest right
now in the eu especially with with the
leadership of germany on renewable
energy especially uh investing in in
green hydrogen and all over africa
actually namibia and south africa
there's a project in tunisia and morocco
and other places but unfortunately it's
still part of the same extractive model
all of these investments in in solar all
over africa especially in tunisia and
morocco it's not really to provide
energy security for tunisia or morocco
for namibia it's to use the strategic
location for producing green hydrogen
and solar and exporting it to the eu to
improve the energy security of the eu
so it's still an extractive
yet green
extractive uh model and i'm what i'm
what i've been arguing for is
for for a country like tunisia for a
country like namibia or or morocco to
continue importing coal and fossil fuel
and yet have a massive renewable energy
capacity the case of tunisia i've talked
about it quite a bit
we have
plans right now to export four gigawatts
of solar energy to to the eu
via
under under sea cables to uh
to italy and other places tunisia's
total energy needs and electricity is
four gigawatts and yet all of it will be
exported to the eu and tunisia will have
zero renewable energy capacity when i
say zero i'm exaggerating we have three
percent renewable energy capacity and
we'll continue to import fossil fuels to
serve the needs of the economy and again
as i said earlier you can't build a
resilient economy without food security
without energy security and and and the
mindset of export-oriented growth why
because those four gigawatts exported to
the eu will generate euros that tunisia
will use to import its own food in its
own energy this is not the model of
resilience that we're talking about that
doesn't mean we should cut off links
with the eu and not have exports no but
the relationship should be not
extractive like in the colonial and
post-colonial area but a
resilience-based cooperation whereby
european technology can be used to build
both capacity for
african countries and export surplus and
scale up the production of renewable
energy and investment in research and
development so that's really the shift
in in thinking but as of right now i
haven't seen a single
large-scale project that's aimed at
building that kind of resilience it's
mostly will give you a little bit of
renewable energy and it's mostly it's
the it's the it's the surplus renewable
energy that they can't use anyway they
sell it to the local grid
um but it's not really meant for uh
for for transforming local economies
and stephanie is is there a path for
countries to recover their monetary
sovereignty you know or in the case of
narrow which
essentially has never had that because
it's
came out of the world of australia what
what's the pathway how should they think
well i think they should think longer
term uh as fidel said this is not
something that you can wake up tomorrow
morning and declare yourself
liberated and a monetary sovereign this
is a
this is a long-term strategic plan i
mean as an academic i hate those two
words strategic plan we all we all want
to run when we hear those two words but
the reality is that countries do have to
think strategically and make the kinds
of investments that fodo was just
describing
in their industrial capacity to achieve
the kind of sovereignty across
um industries like
like um energy and food and so forth and
it's just it's just gonna take time you
can introduce a currency
and you can reintroduce in some
countries cases in the case of nauru you
can introduce a currency you can launch
a currency from scratch and you can
build that currency up over time and
slowly displace
the foreign currency that is currently
dominating right transactions and
exchange and payment systems and so
forth but it's a it's a long-term
project
probably fatal has something to add to
that
yeah also i will i'll i'll go back to
the description that you that you always
refer to stephanie which is you know
currency users versus currency issuers a
country that's a currency user has to
bring in revenues in order to spend and
the revenues that you bring in whether
it's through exports or phishing
licenses or mining exports or for an aid
those dollars that you bring in you can
spend it two ways you can spend them in
a band-aid type of way to kind of keep
muddling through with the existing model
of economic development which leads to a
trap inevitably or you can spend those
dollars in a transformative way via the
strategic plan that we've been talking
about which is building the core
foundations of some minimal level of
food security some minimal level of
renewable energy security and then
strategically choosing which areas of
the economy are within reach so to speak
for diversification and for acquiring
higher and higher degrees of value-added
content for example issuing phishing
licenses means that some other
you know
fishing vessels from other countries
have the right to
exploit uh your uh your territory for
for for producing fish and you just get
a cut essentially now once you build a
certain level of
food security and and energy security
you can start negotiating those fishing
licenses on new terms for strategic
cooperation
whereas when you don't have the minimum
level of food security you can't really
bargain on anything right because you
say take it or leave it this is this is
the deal but once you build a certain
level of security then you can say well
we would love to develop the next step
in
economic development let's say you know
processing and uh and packaging fish for
export i'm just making up an example
here which means you can collaborate
with nations that have
you know
capacity technological capacity uh
distribution capacity in order to kind
of tag along in that process of economic
development and start creating more jobs
domestically and
extracting a higher value added content
from your exports and that becomes
another source of revenue a source of
technology transfer a source of access
to other markets which will bring in the
next level of possibilities so
you can still be
a country with
no national currency with a foreign
currency but have a strategic plan to
acquire more of that degree of autonomy
economically first
and then once you realize you do
actually have the capacity to run your
own monetary system without falling into
an external debt trap then you can use
your own national currency and you can
manage your exchange rate in a way that
doesn't generate that inflation imported
via food imports and energy imports that
most developing countries uh fall into
typically so that's really the
the the way to to to think about
acquiring higher degrees of uh economic
and monetary sovereignty
that's fascinating paddling there's a
couple of great questions in the shadow
is going to pick up
just before we get there i think you
know one comment i wanted to make was we
have an environment now where
there's almost no economies of scale in
the things we're trying to do in that
you can have very small scale solar and
it's cost effective you can have very
small-scale sustainable agriculture and
it's cost-effective so things which were
once unthinkable can be implemented
quite practically in small communities
you know and narrows an example where
the population is something like 50 000
people if i have the number right so i
think that's
sorry 12 000 okay which is a smaller
than the village i grew up in england so
tiny
and the questions i was going to draw
out were it's a couple of interrelated
things here and one ambassador moses
talked about earlier on should
developing countries try to establish
alternate trade blocs of effectively
south south trade to escape the
impositions that are coming from the
developed world more in the north and
west and maybe a related point to this
from jessica margulin is
how does cryptocurrency fill in with
this or digital currencies is there
something we should be thinking about in
that regard are there ways for example
that
value could be provided into some form
of digital currency that's made
available to the people of the nation
that then puts the financial external
aid into the hands of individuals i mean
i'm faster than your thoughts around
some of those issues
uh it looks like ambassador moses has to
excuse herself
thank you ambassador moses for for
joining us and and good luck with your
with your next meeting and
uh
uh
and the meeting that you have to attend
to
um
thank you very much
thank you so much
see you later thank you
nigel i'm happy to to address the uh the
south south uh strategic partnerships
and i'll if i may start with with a
simple metaphor because
the dominant narrative in international
trade is that trade is good trade trade
is healthy uh competition is is healthy
for everyone just like in sports
competition is good for you except in
sports in boxing for example we would
never allow a heavyweight boxing
champion in the ring with a lightweight
boxing champion it's illegal it's ugly
nobody wants to watch it and we wouldn't
call it healthy or or good
and yet we allow that in international
trade we allow a heavyweight
industrial powerhouse to destroy a
lightweight small developing country's
industries and we call it healthy we
call it free trade so the idea of south
south trade or strategic partnership
is competition amongst equal is healthy
um that's point number one point number
two small developing countries can't
really industrialize because their
internal market is so small
even for countries with 10 15 million
consumers you can't really hit the
economies of scale that you need for
industrialization so you always need
access to larger markets so a global
south trading block allows you access to
larger markets it also allows you to
leverage
complementary capabilities and resources
within the trading block
so that you're you're not limited with
resources or technical capabilities and
it gives you the larger market so that
you can hit those economies of scale
my advice is to not start those
strategic partnerships to compete with
boeing or airbus because that's not the
priority number one and it's very hard
to catch up with boeing from from from a
technological perspective but start with
the strategic areas that you need for
the collective resilience within the
trading block such as food security such
as energy security such as
basic research and development that will
strengthen that resilience over time for
example when it comes to manufacturing a
lot of countries in the global south
especially with the climate crisis that
we're facing um especially small island
nations need water storage capacity
water filtration capacity and as a small
country you can't really scale up an
industry for such a small market but you
can scale up an industry that
manufactures
water storage units and water filtration
capacity for a large market of 300
million consumers it's those types of
strategic investments that allow you
immediately to gain higher value added
content from that particular type of
manufacturing leverage complementary
resources and capabilities within the
block and serve the collective
resilience of the entire
region
and in the case of even food exports we
have a lot of developing countries who
dedicate the most precious water
resources and the most fertile land they
have to produce crops purely for exports
to serve say the european or the
american market like exporting
strawberries for example which is not an
important food security item for a
country like tunisia or morocco for
example but it's an export that brings a
lot of dollars and euros to allow those
countries to pay their external debt
yeah here what we're
going to jump in here fellow because i
know we're almost out of time here and i
wanted to put one question to
uh stephanie before we go which is again
from the q a from ellen helker negron
and excuse me if i pronounce your name
on that ellen but you know your thoughts
around the endless pursuit of growth and
that you know the the idea that maybe
growth is not the answer to any
everything stephanie do you want to make
a kind of passing or closing comment on
that
you're just on mute still
you see 18 months into the pandemic and
all the zooming in
it would be
you know second nature to unmute
yourself but it's still not
uh yeah sure so look i'm very
sympathetic i like the question very
much i think that um growth in and of
itself is never the right objective of
economic policy and i think that so much
of the obsession with growth
around the world has to do with our
obsession with debt i mean if you think
about this you know governments becoming
obsessed with debt to gdp ratios and
buying into this idea that in fact
growth is the escape route to a debt
crisis if your debt to gdp ratio
is elevated the solution very often uh
the perceived solution is to just grow
the economy so that the denominator in
the equation massively increases
shrinking the ratio and that that is how
many governments uh think they are going
to keep the debt sustainable escape a
debt crisis and so forth and so i think
there there is a way in which mmt is
very important here in you know
resetting our understanding of
government debt and finance and you know
first i i think it's important and i
don't think it's come up yet but
governments that issue their own
currency never have to borrow it from
anyone right even the decision to sell
government bonds is a choice when you're
issuing bonds denominated in your own
currency and if you choose to offer
investors
an interest interest-bearing form of
your currency which is really what
government bonds are just interest
bearing dollars interest bearing yen
interest bearing pounds you can also set
the interest rate that you are willing
to pay on any bonds that you choose to
offer
so
that understanding i think helps us move
away from the growth obsession but then
as fodo's been talking about now you
know for some period of time uh there
are countries that are indebted deeply
in currencies that aren't their own and
for them this obsession with
generating revenue through exports to
grow the economy grow revenues to
satisfy foreign creditors is not as easy
to disregard and i think there are
things the international community can
do to help countries you know work out
um their their debt restructuring and
other sorts of things that that we can
and and i think probably should do
but uh in terms of just saying the the
key to success and the way to measure
the success of any economy is to look at
its real gdp growth rate and the bigger
that number the more successful that
economy
is almost by definition is clearly not
the way to go and it's not sustainable
fantastic well i know i know we're out
of time now
that i think this has been a really
important discussion for anyone who
hasn't read stephanie's book please buy
it and read it and it will really make
you sit down and think hard
watch the space regarding the work that
fadel is doing with ambassador moses
regarding naru it is a fascinating case
in point as to how these challenges can
be addressed
the whole point about thinking long term
is is close to my heart my first book
was all about the long term so always
i'm going to support that argument
and
i guess the
the other point i was going to draw out
which is this obsession we see exactly
as stephanie has said around company
countries being obsessed with gdp growth
we see the same in the private sector
companies pursuing turnover growth
ignoring whether it's profitable let
alone how much capital is associated
with that and that may seem crazy that
companies could chase something which
looks like it's a
lots of revenue and terrible return on
capital but we see it all the time and
it's just extraordinary and there there
clearly is a better way so stephanie
thank you so much fellow ambassador
moses it's been a wonderful discussion
there will be a recording of this to
everyone who wants to watch it again
and look out for our upcoming episodes
which is uh in a couple of weeks time we
have a preview of cop 26 with the title
cops and robbers and then the week after
that we have 60 minutes to save the
world which is looking at how we can all
take action in a small amount of time
each week
really to drive practical change by that
action by our political representatives
and indeed things we can do ourselves
and this is going to have a real live
demonstration of how to do it in the
middle of the episode for a bit of extra
fun so thank you for joining us and look
forward to seeing you all again soon.
／／／／／／／／／／／／／
21:28
i am happy to be with you thank you so
21:30
much for including me in this
21:32
uh very important conversation i'm i'm
21:35
really delighted to
21:36
be able to join you and to share uh some
21:40
thoughts with you so
21:42
uh i am going to take just a little bit
21:44
of time and give you sort of a broad
21:47
brush stroke i know this for many of you
21:49
is not the first time
21:50
that you will have had a sort of
21:53
thumbnail sketch uh of mmt i understand
21:56
that this is well integrated into this
21:59
forum
22:01
but for those who might be joining for
22:02
the first time uh let me just give you a
22:06
very brief introduction
22:08
so i want to tell you that um for me you
22:11
know this journey to where i am today
22:14
having recently written and published a
22:17
book that attempts to lay out some of
22:19
the core tenets of mmt and to bust and
22:22
address a lot of the myths and
22:24
misunderstandings surrounding the nature
22:27
of money the role of taxes and
22:30
government borrowing debt and deficits
22:33
uh
22:34
you know i lay this out in the book this
22:36
is a journey that that started for me
22:38
about a quarter of a century ago i was
22:40
studying economics at cambridge
22:42
university
22:44
so i was in graduate school
22:46
and i ended up encountering the work of
22:51
someone named warren mosler a name that
22:53
is probably familiar to a number of you
22:55
but probably not to everyone
22:57
so warren isn't really an economist i
23:00
mean he has an undergraduate degree in
23:02
economics
23:03
but he spent his career
23:06
uh working in financial markets and so
23:10
warren will sometimes describe himself
23:12
as a a an insider a financial insider
23:15
and i think it's that experience that
23:18
allowed him to see the kinds of things
23:20
that
23:21
most of the people frankly in my
23:23
profession were simply missing um they
23:27
they did not have the understanding at
23:29
the operational level sort of the
23:31
mechanics of how financial markets work
23:35
and and that warren had and so he i
23:39
think just could see things more clearly
23:41
so what he did was he wrote up his ideas
23:44
first in a little book or a little
23:46
pamphlet that he called soft currency
23:48
economics now what the heck is that soft
23:50
currency what is that well he intended
23:53
it to be
23:54
sort of the
23:56
opposite of i guess a hard currency so a
23:59
soft currency
24:01
not like a gold standard not a fixed
24:03
exchange rate system but a floating fiat
24:07
currency which post 1971 in the
24:11
post-bretton woods era most of the
24:13
world's countries had floated their
24:16
currencies and so warren's thinking went
24:20
basically that the monetary system
24:23
international monetary system and the
24:24
monetary systems that were in place
24:27
across
24:28
much of the world had fundamentally
24:30
changed and yet the discourse hadn't
24:33
kept up it hadn't evolved with the
24:36
change and that most of the dialogue the
24:39
debates the economic models and theories
24:42
were in some sense still
24:44
written for and being taught to students
24:47
like me while i was at cambridge as if
24:49
we were still operating under the old
24:52
system with a hard currency with a gold
24:54
standard sort of way of thinking
24:56
and uh and warren thought that that was
24:59
wrong and he followed up the little book
25:02
soft currency economics with this book
25:04
which was warren's attempt to do
25:07
more or less what i did in my book which
25:09
is to do some myth busting to correct
25:12
the thinking this book is called the
25:13
seven it's a mouthful the seven deadly
25:17
innocent frauds of economic policy and i
25:20
think he makes this available i think
25:22
there's a pdf that you can find and
25:24
access for free online so if you're
25:26
interested
25:27
uh and and so warren laid these ideas
25:30
out
25:32
and i can tell you that when i first
25:33
encountered them
25:34
i
25:36
thought that warren was completely wrong
25:38
i mean why wouldn't i right i'm studying
25:40
at one of the premier universities in
25:41
the world
25:42
i'm being taught something that is
25:45
essentially counter to basically
25:47
everything that warren was saying in his
25:50
first little book and and later here
25:52
and
25:53
i mean i have the benefit of being
25:55
trained by some of the the top
25:57
economists in the world and they were
25:58
saying the opposite of what warren was
26:01
arguing
26:02
so
26:03
why would i
26:04
uh
26:06
why would i
26:07
believe warren and yet there was
26:09
something about the way warren presented
26:11
his arguments and i think in some ways
26:14
it resonated with me because i had a
26:16
background uh as an undergraduate in
26:19
finance and accounting and warren
26:22
presented his arguments
26:24
using
26:25
a an accounting framework he would show
26:28
you his work he would put the debits and
26:30
credits in place walk through the
26:32
balance sheet entries and you know it
26:35
turns out when you do that
26:37
you're really opening yourself up
26:39
because the reader can easily spot the
26:42
flaw in the argument when the balance
26:45
sheets don't balance when there's a
26:47
breakdown in the logic and it's laid out
26:49
right there clearly for you to find and
26:52
so i knew he was a smart guy a
26:54
successful uh investor clearly a bright
26:57
guy the arguments were leading to a
27:00
place that i was uncomfortable with
27:02
because again it was the opposite of
27:04
what i was learning and yet i couldn't
27:06
shake it i there was something about
27:09
uh what he was saying that rang true and
27:12
i couldn't find a flaw in the argument
27:14
and i started studying this sort of
27:16
thing as a graduate student i went on to
27:18
write a dissertation that was called
27:21
something like
27:24
understanding government finance under
27:26
different monetary regimes or something
27:28
along those lines and basically
27:30
what i did was arrive at a place where i
27:33
was comfortable with warren's arguments
27:35
because i work them through for myself
27:37
and i did it in part by getting on the
27:39
phone and reading uh talking to people
27:42
at treasury and at the fed and reading
27:45
you know sort of operations manuals you
27:47
know how does it all work and figuring
27:50
this stuff out and putting it to the
27:52
test and and uh you know stress testing
27:55
warren's arguments i guess and i managed
27:58
to convince myself that warren had it
28:00
right and that most of
28:02
my profession had it backwards and that
28:04
was i can tell you very jarring
28:07
initially for me
28:09
um but i think it's more important to
28:11
try to get things right
28:13
than to fit in with the you know
28:17
conventional wisdom and
28:19
that comes sometimes at great cost right
28:23
um you you definitely
28:26
put yourself out there as maybe a
28:28
heretic or as someone who's uh not
28:31
orthodox in their thinking and and that
28:35
can lead other people to not want to
28:37
take you as seriously but i think what's
28:39
happened with us over the last now
28:42
quarter century or so that we've been at
28:44
this is that
28:46
our credibility has only been enhanced
28:48
and a big part of the reason that so
28:52
many are now
28:53
taking mmt and the insights seriously is
28:58
because we have amassed a track record
29:01
over the last 25 years or so of getting
29:04
i think so many of the big things right
29:07
while watching can more conventional
29:10
approaches to economics really just miss
29:13
the mark um widely whether it comes to
29:17
you know um the introduction of the euro
29:20
the the importance of retaining a
29:24
sovereign currency of being a monetary
29:26
sovereign and the consequences of
29:29
abandoning monetary sovereignty these 11
29:32
countries initially that gave up their
29:34
currencies and
29:36
decided to use the euro starting in
29:38
january of 1999
29:40
warren mosler and a number of other uh
29:44
mmt economists were
29:46
very quick to weigh in on this even
29:49
before the currency was officially
29:51
introduced i was writing about it when i
29:54
was doing my phd dissertation and other
29:56
mmt economists were publicly warning
30:00
that this was the kind of a thing this
30:02
move to give up sovereign currencies and
30:05
adopt a common currency without a full
30:07
fiscal union
30:09
was the kind of thing that would leave
30:11
countries vulnerable in
30:14
the wake of an economic downturn unable
30:17
to act
30:18
with sufficient force using fiscal
30:20
policy that
30:22
they would be borrowing in what was
30:24
effectively a foreign currency opening
30:27
them up to debt crises i mean these are
30:29
the kinds of things we were saying and
30:31
people by and large thought that you
30:33
know we must be crazy uh this was just
30:37
about market efficiencies after all
30:39
right these countries were doing a large
30:41
volume of trade with one another so
30:43
what's the harm in giving up a common uh
30:45
giving up a sovereign currency in favor
30:48
of a common currency it just makes the
30:50
whole thing more efficient to operate
30:52
with one currency and so we were um not
30:56
alone but it was pretty lonely uh to be
30:59
taking the positions that we took
31:02
back in the you know later part of the
31:04
1990s and of course it turned out to be
31:07
correct and then again with the great
31:09
recession with quantitative easing we
31:12
took views that were very different
31:14
reinhardt and rogoff famously published
31:16
paper warning of debt crises and tipping
31:19
points when debt to gdp ratios reached
31:22
90 percent you know scaring hell out of
31:25
governments around the world and causing
31:28
a number of governments to pivot
31:31
to austerity
31:33
including i would argue here in the u.s
31:35
after the financial crisis we had a very
31:37
premature
31:38
pivot to fiscal restraint after passing
31:42
one
31:43
somewhat significant piece of
31:45
legislation
31:46
to support the economy after the great
31:49
uh recession started and then everyone
31:52
got cold feet because we're looking
31:53
across the pond at what was happening in
31:55
greece and spain and portugal and
31:57
ireland and italy and so forth saying
31:58
this could be us
32:00
and uh mmt was saying mmt economists
32:03
were saying of course that can't be us
32:05
right we operate with a sovereign
32:07
currency so
32:09
you know we we understood this from a
32:12
very early stage it was always important
32:14
to us to think about
32:17
policy space to think about how much
32:19
capacity right a nation has to operate
32:23
and orient its economic policy
32:26
to the maximum interest and benefit of
32:28
its people
32:30
can a country do that can you achieve
32:33
full employment while keeping inflation
32:37
low and manageable and how can you do
32:40
that and uh you know for for decades now
32:43
we have relied around the world
32:45
countries have relied on central banks
32:47
to essentially take the economic
32:48
steering wheel and bear
32:50
most if not all of the responsibility
32:53
for steering the economy and mmt has
32:56
always
32:58
seen flaws and problems with that
33:01
approach uh too much of a burden has
33:03
been placed on central banks the world
33:05
over we favored at a minimum a better
33:08
policy mix but certainly much more
33:10
reliance on fiscal policy
33:13
to deliver on
33:15
the full employment and price stability
33:18
objectives and so i'll just kind of
33:21
close by saying for us it was always
33:24
important to look at a country and
33:26
assess that country's capacity on an
33:29
individual basis right because monetary
33:32
sovereignty is not a black or white on
33:34
and off switch you don't either have it
33:36
or not have it you have
33:38
policy space some countries have more
33:41
policy space some have less some
33:43
countries have a whole lot more than
33:45
they recognize and therefore then they
33:47
take advantage of and that's harmful
33:51
it's harmful in terms of the suffering
33:53
and the economic costs and the social
33:55
costs and the environmental costs that
33:58
are born by populations because
34:00
countries
34:01
believe and operate as if they are
34:04
constrained in that sort of old fixed
34:06
exchange rate gold standard framework
34:08
and they think they don't have the
34:09
policy space to act they've been told
34:12
that financial markets could quickly
34:14
turn against them if their debt ratios
34:16
reach a certain level
34:18
um that they've got to borrow from
34:20
private savers in order to finance
34:22
spending and that the bigger the deficit
34:24
gets the more intensive the borrowing
34:26
becomes and that drives up interest
34:28
rates and leads to crowding out of
34:29
private investment slower growth and all
34:31
that stuff over time uh and that has
34:34
caused governments to hold back right to
34:38
be uh
34:39
[Music]
34:40
what to restrain policy
34:43
in ways that is detrimental okay so we
34:47
look and and you heard this i think in
34:48
the opening video and i'm just going to
34:50
close by saying think of a spectrum
34:53
right where countries that have what we
34:56
could imagine to be a high degree of
34:58
monetary sovereignty countries like the
35:00
us but certainly not just the u.s
35:02
countries like japan and the uk
35:04
australia canada new zealand china many
35:07
countries have a lot of
35:10
policy space their monetary systems are
35:13
set up
35:14
to allow that right to have a floating
35:17
exchange rate issue a fiat currency
35:19
avoid borrowing in foreign currencies
35:23
and i know fado will talk more about
35:25
other kinds of um things that give rise
35:28
to a greater degree of fiscal space of
35:31
policy space things like food
35:33
sovereignty energy sovereignty and so
35:35
forth but as you change your monetary
35:38
system and make it more restrictive as
35:40
you peg a currency or move to a hard
35:43
fixed exchange rate or outright adopt
35:45
another country's currency
35:47
um you are sacrificing
35:50
policy space you're sacrificing the
35:53
monetary sovereignty and with it a lot
35:56
of the capacity
35:58
to make those investments in your
36:00
economy that are life enhancing and so
36:04
um i'm i feel like i've gone on
36:06
perhaps too long so i'm going to pause
36:08
and i know there will be time for
36:09
discussion.
F.Kaboub：
36:12 thank you stephanie this was very 36:14 helpful so i'm gonna i'm gonna build on 36:16 this and connect to some of the uh 36:18 challenges that ambassador moses um uh 36:21 mentioned in her uh opening remarks 36:23 and i'll start 36:25 pretty much where you started stephanie 36:27 in grad school when i was 36:29 learning all of this stuff learning the 36:30 traditional approach to economics and 36:32 learning the mmt and post keynesian 36:34 institutionalist approach to economics 36:36 and especially money and money and 36:38 banking as as somebody who grew up in a 36:41 developing country in tunisia and in the 36:43 global south 36:44 my immediate attention was to 36:47 you know how do we take these 36:50 um 36:52 this analytical framework and apply it 36:54 in the context of the global south with 36:56 uh with countries that have 36:58 substantially different uh challenges 37:00 than say the united states japan and 37:02 canada and that's been kind of my 37:04 journey over the last 20 years or so 37:07 working on adapting and adjusting uh the 37:11 the mmt framework to the development 37:13 challenges and i wasn't in initially 37:16 interested in climate change 37:18 you know per se or agriculture or 37:20 renewable energy or any of those things 37:22 other than kind of casual interest not 37:25 not in the sense of academic and policy 37:27 interests but my interest in money and 37:30 development led me straight 37:32 to the issues of food sovereignty and 37:35 energy sovereignty because they're 37:36 interlinked so for example when we think 37:39 about that spectrum of monetary 37:41 sovereignty that uh dr kelton mentioned 37:44 um a few minutes ago think about the 37:48 the the components that actually 37:50 determine how much 37:52 uh how much monetary sovereignty a 37:54 country can can have and and it's 37:56 important to recognize that monetary 37:58 sovereignty is not something that you 37:59 declare as a government it's something 38:01 that you acquire with strategic 38:03 investments with with hard work 38:05 so think of countries that have 38:08 the capacity to issue their own currency 38:11 czech that's a country like the us japan 38:13 canada and so on uh a country that can 38:16 collect taxes denominated in the same 38:18 national currency check that's point 38:20 number two very important 38:22 but most importantly it's a country that 38:26 only issues bonds or issues debt 38:28 denominated in its national currency not 38:31 in foreign currencies in other words to 38:33 avoid borrowing and promising to pay 38:35 back in a foreign currency that's what 38:37 we call external debt debt denominated 38:39 in foreign currencies and this is where 38:41 you see most developing countries 38:43 have a structural problem where they 38:46 constantly accumulate larger and larger 38:48 amounts of 38:50 external debt denominated in dollars and 38:52 euros in japanese yen and so on 38:55 so when i started looking at this i'm 38:57 wondering what is the thing that forces 39:00 a country to borrow in foreign 39:02 currencies when you start digging deeper 39:04 into the challenges you recognize that 39:06 there are structural trade deficits for 39:08 most developing countries which are 39:11 driven by three major components number 39:13 one 39:14 developing countries in general rely 39:17 heavily on food imports because they 39:19 don't have food security they don't have 39:21 food sovereignty number two they rely 39:24 heavily on energy imports and that 39:26 constitutes a huge component 39:28 of their of their trade deficit and as a 39:30 result their external debt and this is 39:32 by the way true even for countries who 39:34 were big exporters of oil and fossil 39:37 fuels why because they export crude oil 39:39 and then they import the refined 39:41 petrochemicals like gasoline and 39:43 kerosene and and other petrochemicals 39:45 that they need for for economic 39:47 development because you can't consume 39:48 crude oil is useless you have to export 39:51 it to a country that has the refining 39:53 capacity which will then uh allow you to 39:56 import gasoline and kerosene so you're 39:58 essentially exporting the low value 40:01 added content material crude oil and 40:04 you're importing the higher value-added 40:06 content petrochemicals like gasoline and 40:08 kerosene and so on so that's the second 40:11 structural weakness then the third one 40:13 is an industrialization structural 40:15 weakness whereby developing countries 40:18 over time 40:19 tended to specialize 40:21 in 40:23 uh assembly line type of manufacturing 40:25 in other words low value added content 40:28 of manufacturing which means you have to 40:29 import the capital the 40:31 the technology the equipment the 40:33 intermediate goods the components 40:35 and the fuel to fuel your industrial 40:38 development in order to export low value 40:41 added content so in in that space the 40:44 only way to compete is essentially by 40:46 racing to the bottom in terms of cost of 40:48 labor in terms of environmental 40:50 standards labor standards and so on 40:52 which is yet another structural trap so 40:54 when you have a trade deficit this is 40:57 the the key point that i'd like people 40:58 really to 41:00 to follow here because this is the real 41:02 constraint when you have a structural 41:04 trade deficit year after year it forces 41:07 the value of your currency downwards 41:09 relative to the dollar relative to the 41:11 euro so when your currency is weaker 41:13 when your currency depreciates relative 41:15 to major currencies everything you 41:17 import the next morning becomes more 41:19 expensive so you're literally importing 41:21 inflation and it's extremely sensitive 41:24 because you're talking about food price 41:26 inflation and fuel price inflation and 41:28 in many many countries to this day we 41:31 see food riots and social and political 41:34 instability associated with this kind of 41:36 imported inflation in other words the 41:39 best way to fight this type of inflation 41:42 and these structural weaknesses is to go 41:44 to the roots of the problem by 41:46 developing a strategy for increasing the 41:49 degree of your food sovereignty your 41:52 food security by producing it 41:53 domestically increasing the degree of 41:56 your energy sovereignty because you 41:58 can't really run any economy anywhere in 42:00 the world without food without energy 42:02 these are the basic foundations before 42:05 you start thinking about international 42:07 trade and export-oriented things you 42:09 have to build the solid foundation first 42:12 to protect and insulate your economy 42:15 from the risk of imported inflation 42:17 which weakens the country and as a 42:19 result forces the country into immediate 42:21 band-aid solutions if you're if you're 42:23 not dealing with the long-term uh 42:25 structural issues the band-aid solution 42:27 is to borrow money in order to subsidize 42:30 food subsidize fuel 42:32 in order to artificially fix your 42:34 exchange rate relative to the dollar 42:36 relative to the euro and this has been 42:38 the trap that most developing countries 42:41 has struggled with for for decades but 42:43 then the mainstream solutions to these 42:46 traps 42:48 to me are actually mechanisms that 42:50 further enforce those traps and i'll 42:52 list them quickly so that we we 42:54 understand what what i'm talking about 42:57 many uh mainstream economists and 42:59 development agencies tell you in order 43:01 to get out of this poverty trap you need 43:03 to 43:04 generate more export revenue so export 43:06 faster bring foreign direct investment 43:08 to fuel more exports well the problem is 43:10 in order to export you have to import 43:12 the intermediate goods the capital you 43:15 have to 43:16 import the high value added content and 43:18 export the low value added content you 43:20 have to import even more fuel to 43:23 industrialize your economy so you're 43:24 constantly weakening 43:27 your economy as a result because you're 43:29 not really moving up the ladder so to 43:31 speak to produce high value-added 43:33 content they tell you rely on tourism 43:35 bring millions of tourists they'll bring 43:36 you dollars and euros and that will 43:38 allow you to pay for your food imports 43:40 and your 43:41 debt and so on the problem is when you 43:43 bring millions of tourists you have to 43:44 feed them so you add more food imports 43:46 and you have to transport them heat and 43:48 cool the hotels so you end up further 43:50 importing even more fossil fuels and 43:53 more food so you're structurally again 43:55 in that trap 43:57 so all of these traditional policy 43:59 solutions whether it's you know free 44:01 trade driven or tourism-driven or 44:04 export-led all of these have reinforced 44:07 those traps and have accumulated further 44:09 and further external debt and as a 44:11 result weakened the economic 44:14 monetary sovereignty of those countries 44:16 and as a result it also weakens your 44:19 political sovereignty in the 44:20 international community in other words 44:22 you can't really walk away from a 44:24 negotiation table as a small developing 44:27 country if it means the next day your 44:30 people will not have food or fuel and 44:32 you're going to have social and 44:33 political instability but if you do have 44:36 food security energy security and 44:39 resilience to these external shocks then 44:41 you can be 44:43 more selective in terms of your 44:45 international agreements you can set 44:47 your own terms 44:49 and you can walk away from a negotiation 44:51 table and what i've been trying to 44:53 articulate for a number of years now 44:55 that it's 44:57 even easier to do it when you have a 44:59 block of developing countries thinking 45:01 in terms of resilience 45:03 resilience-focused economic development 45:05 as opposed to the traditional model of 45:07 extractive economic development and and 45:10 death-driven 45:12 economic development and this becomes 45:14 and i'll close with this this becomes 45:16 extremely important given the climate 45:18 challenges that we're facing today 45:20 because the climate challenge is not 45:22 just a technological or technical 45:24 challenge we have lots of technology but 45:27 the problem uh to some extent is 45:29 changing the economic engine that 45:32 produces the pollution that produces the 45:35 extractive 45:36 that reinforces these extractive 45:38 mechanisms 45:40 and 45:41 and it means rethinking 45:43 how we finance the transition from the 45:46 old engine of economic development to a 45:48 new engine of economic development how 45:50 to do it in a just way because when you 45:52 think of who's been responsible for most 45:55 co2 emissions since the industrial 45:57 revolution it's clearly the global north 46:00 it's not the the global south it's not 46:01 developing countries but who's on the 46:03 front lines of climate change it's the 46:05 global south primarily when it comes to 46:08 which countries have the largest fiscal 46:10 capacity the highest degree of monetary 46:12 sovereignty it's the global north when 46:15 it comes to which countries have 46:18 access to technology that is 46:21 transformational and when it comes to 46:23 the impact on climate change it's again 46:25 the global north so we have a collective 46:27 responsibility to redesign the global 46:31 financial architecture redesign the 46:33 economic engines that we've been using 46:36 globally in order to accelerate the 46:38 transition 46:39 to a green and resilient economy not 46:42 just in the global 46:44 south but but also on the global north 46:46 and with that i'd like to open it up for 46:48 uh questions and and comments and i'd 46:50 like to uh hear also from ambassador 46:54 moses 46:54 and dr kelton if they have any follow-up 46:57 comments uh here nigel would you like to 47:00 lead us into the q a fantastic yes and 47:03 absolutely invite stephanie to join us 47:05 again and ambassador moses and there's a 47:07 great question in the q a which might be 47:10 a good place to start 47:12 which is from 47:13 someone who is in africa and we have 47:15 guests i think from every continent 47:17 today which is fantastic and some of 47:18 them are up very late so thank you for 47:20 staying up late and he says i've been 47:22 wondering how we can convince western 47:24 businesses to change their approach from 47:27 an exploitative one to one which really 47:30 supports inclusive development and i'm 47:32 paraphrasing slightly and you know one 47:35 example of this is the proposed green 47:37 hydrogen project in namibia which i've 47:39 been reading about another i know that 47:42 you're close to fidel is what is 47:44 happening or not happening in tunisia in 47:46 relation to renewable energy so that's 47:49 kind of the first part of the question 47:51 and then i think if we can take it to 47:53 the world of naru which of course 47:54 doesn't have its own currency it's using 47:56 australian dollars and it's got you know 47:59 is there a pathway to recovering 48:01 monetary sovereignty so maybe we should 48:03 start with the specifics of you know 48:05 projects in africa and 48:07 is there a way to get commercial 48:09 businesses to support them and how and 48:11 then come to the 48:12 the recapture of monetary sovereignty 48:14 challenge 48:16 very very good question 48:18 i'll i'll start with the with the 48:19 discussion with the question on on green 48:21 hydrating and uh and kind of the role of 48:24 business in in in this uh in this space 48:27 um 48:29 there's there's a lot of interest right 48:31 now in the eu especially with with the 48:34 leadership of germany on renewable 48:35 energy especially uh investing in in 48:39 green hydrogen and all over africa 48:41 actually namibia and south africa 48:42 there's a project in tunisia and morocco 48:44 and other places but unfortunately it's 48:46 still part of the same extractive model 48:49 all of these investments in in solar all 48:52 over africa especially in tunisia and 48:54 morocco it's not really to provide 48:57 energy security for tunisia or morocco 48:59 for namibia it's to use the strategic 49:03 location for producing green hydrogen 49:05 and solar and exporting it to the eu to 49:09 improve the energy security of the eu 49:13 so it's still an extractive 49:15 yet green 49:16 extractive uh model and i'm what i'm 49:20 what i've been arguing for is 49:22 for for a country like tunisia for a 49:23 country like namibia or or morocco to 49:26 continue importing coal and fossil fuel 49:29 and yet have a massive renewable energy 49:32 capacity the case of tunisia i've talked 49:34 about it quite a bit 49:36 we have 49:37 plans right now to export four gigawatts 49:40 of solar energy to to the eu 49:43 via 49:44 under under sea cables to uh 49:47 to italy and other places tunisia's 49:50 total energy needs and electricity is 49:53 four gigawatts and yet all of it will be 49:55 exported to the eu and tunisia will have 49:58 zero renewable energy capacity when i 50:01 say zero i'm exaggerating we have three 50:02 percent renewable energy capacity and 50:05 we'll continue to import fossil fuels to 50:07 serve the needs of the economy and again 50:10 as i said earlier you can't build a 50:12 resilient economy without food security 50:14 without energy security and and and the 50:17 mindset of export-oriented growth why 50:19 because those four gigawatts exported to 50:21 the eu will generate euros that tunisia 50:24 will use to import its own food in its 50:27 own energy this is not the model of 50:29 resilience that we're talking about that 50:30 doesn't mean we should cut off links 50:32 with the eu and not have exports no but 50:35 the relationship should be not 50:37 extractive like in the colonial and 50:39 post-colonial area but a 50:41 resilience-based cooperation whereby 50:45 european technology can be used to build 50:48 both capacity for 50:50 african countries and export surplus and 50:53 scale up the production of renewable 50:55 energy and investment in research and 50:57 development so that's really the shift 50:59 in in thinking but as of right now i 51:01 haven't seen a single 51:04 large-scale project that's aimed at 51:06 building that kind of resilience it's 51:08 mostly will give you a little bit of 51:09 renewable energy and it's mostly it's 51:11 the it's the it's the surplus renewable 51:15 energy that they can't use anyway they 51:17 sell it to the local grid 51:19 um but it's not really meant for uh 51:22 for for transforming local economies 51:26 and stephanie is is there a path for 51:28 countries to recover their monetary 51:30 sovereignty you know or in the case of 51:33 narrow which 51:34 essentially has never had that because 51:36 it's 51:37 came out of the world of australia what 51:38 what's the pathway how should they think 51:42 well i think they should think longer 51:44 term.
Kelton： ~53:02
uh as fidel said this is not 51:47 something that you can wake up tomorrow 51:49 morning and declare yourself 51:51 liberated and a monetary sovereign this 51:54 is a 51:56 this is a long-term strategic plan i 51:59 mean as an academic i hate those two 52:01 words strategic plan we all we all want 52:03 to run when we hear those two words but 52:05 the reality is that countries do have to 52:08 think strategically and make the kinds 52:10 of investments that fodo was just 52:12 describing 52:13 in their industrial capacity to achieve 52:17 the kind of sovereignty across 52:20 um industries like 52:23 like um energy and food and so forth and 52:26 it's just it's just gonna take time you 52:28 can introduce a currency 52:31 and you can reintroduce in some 52:34 countries cases in the case of nauru you 52:36 can introduce a currency you can launch 52:39 a currency from scratch and you can 52:42 build that currency up over time and 52:46 slowly displace 52:48 the foreign currency that is currently 52:51 dominating right transactions and 52:53 exchange and payment systems and so 52:56 forth but it's a it's a long-term 52:59 project 53:00 probably fatal has something to add to 53:02 that.
F：
53:03 yeah also i will i'll i'll go back to 53:05 the description that you that you always 53:07 refer to stephanie which is you know 53:09 currency users versus currency issuers a 53:12 country that's a currency user has to 53:14 bring in revenues in order to spend and 53:17 the revenues that you bring in whether 53:18 it's through exports or phishing 53:20 licenses or mining exports or for an aid 53:24 those dollars that you bring in you can 53:27 spend it two ways you can spend them in 53:29 a band-aid type of way to kind of keep 53:32 muddling through with the existing model 53:34 of economic development which leads to a 53:36 trap inevitably or you can spend those 53:39 dollars in a transformative way via the 53:41 strategic plan that we've been talking 53:43 about which is building the core 53:45 foundations of some minimal level of 53:47 food security some minimal level of 53:50 renewable energy security and then 53:52 strategically choosing which areas of 53:55 the economy are within reach so to speak 53:58 for diversification and for acquiring 54:01 higher and higher degrees of value-added 54:04 content for example issuing phishing 54:07 licenses means that some other 54:10 you know 54:11 fishing vessels from other countries 54:12 have the right to 54:14 exploit uh your uh your territory for 54:18 for for producing fish and you just get 54:20 a cut essentially now once you build a 54:24 certain level of 54:26 food security and and energy security 54:30 you can start negotiating those fishing 54:33 licenses on new terms for strategic 54:35 cooperation 54:37 whereas when you don't have the minimum 54:39 level of food security you can't really 54:41 bargain on anything right because you 54:43 say take it or leave it this is this is 54:45 the deal but once you build a certain 54:47 level of security then you can say well 54:49 we would love to develop the next step 54:53 in 54:54 economic development let's say you know 54:56 processing and uh and packaging fish for 55:00 export i'm just making up an example 55:02 here which means you can collaborate 55:05 with nations that have 55:08 you know 55:09 capacity technological capacity uh 55:12 distribution capacity in order to kind 55:15 of tag along in that process of economic 55:17 development and start creating more jobs 55:20 domestically and 55:22 extracting a higher value added content 55:25 from your exports and that becomes 55:27 another source of revenue a source of 55:29 technology transfer a source of access 55:32 to other markets which will bring in the 55:34 next level of possibilities so 55:37 you can still be 55:38 a country with 55:40 no national currency with a foreign 55:42 currency but have a strategic plan to 55:45 acquire more of that degree of autonomy 55:48 economically first 55:50 and then once you realize you do 55:52 actually have the capacity to run your 55:54 own monetary system without falling into 55:57 an external debt trap then you can use 56:00 your own national currency and you can 56:03 manage your exchange rate in a way that 56:05 doesn't generate that inflation imported 56:08 via food imports and energy imports that 56:10 most developing countries uh fall into 56:13 typically so that's really the 56:15 the the way to to to think about 56:18 acquiring higher degrees of uh economic 56:20 and monetary sovereignty 56:24 that's fascinating paddling there's a 56:25 couple of great questions in the shadow 56:27 is going to pick up 56:29 just before we get there i think you 56:30 know one comment i wanted to make was we 56:32 have an environment now where 56:36 there's almost no economies of scale in 56:38 the things we're trying to do in that 56:39 you can have very small scale solar and 56:42 it's cost effective you can have very 56:44 small-scale sustainable agriculture and 56:46 it's cost-effective so things which were 56:48 once unthinkable can be implemented 56:51 quite practically in small communities 56:53 you know and narrows an example where 56:55 the population is something like 50 000 56:58 people if i have the number right so i 56:59 think that's 57:00 sorry 12 000 okay which is a smaller 57:03 than the village i grew up in england so 57:05 tiny 57:07 and the questions i was going to draw 57:09 out were it's a couple of interrelated 57:11 things here and one ambassador moses 57:13 talked about earlier on should 57:14 developing countries try to establish 57:17 alternate trade blocs of effectively 57:20 south south trade to escape the 57:22 impositions that are coming from the 57:24 developed world more in the north and 57:26 west and maybe a related point to this 57:29 from jessica margulin is 57:31 how does cryptocurrency fill in with 57:33 this or digital currencies is there 57:36 something we should be thinking about in 57:38 that regard are there ways for example 57:40 that 57:41 value could be provided into some form 57:43 of digital currency that's made 57:45 available to the people of the nation 57:48 that then puts the financial external 57:50 aid into the hands of individuals i mean 57:52 i'm faster than your thoughts around 57:55 some of those issues 57:59 uh it looks like ambassador moses has to 58:02 excuse herself 58:04 thank you ambassador moses for for 58:05 joining us and and good luck with your 58:08 with your next meeting and 58:09 uh 58:10 uh 58:11 and the meeting that you have to attend 58:13 to 58:14 um 58:16 thank you very much 58:18 thank you so much 58:19 see you later thank you 58:22 nigel i'm happy to to address the uh the 58:25 south south uh strategic partnerships 58:28 and i'll if i may start with with a 58:30 simple metaphor because 58:32 the dominant narrative in international 58:33 trade is that trade is good trade trade 58:36 is healthy uh competition is is healthy 58:38 for everyone just like in sports 58:40 competition is good for you except in 58:42 sports in boxing for example we would 58:45 never allow a heavyweight boxing 58:47 champion in the ring with a lightweight 58:49 boxing champion it's illegal it's ugly 58:52 nobody wants to watch it and we wouldn't 58:54 call it healthy or or good 58:56 and yet we allow that in international 58:58 trade we allow a heavyweight 59:00 industrial powerhouse to destroy a 59:03 lightweight small developing country's 59:05 industries and we call it healthy we 59:07 call it free trade so the idea of south 59:10 south trade or strategic partnership 59:13 is competition amongst equal is healthy 59:16 um that's point number one point number 59:18 two small developing countries can't 59:21 really industrialize because their 59:23 internal market is so small 59:25 even for countries with 10 15 million 59:27 consumers you can't really hit the 59:29 economies of scale that you need for 59:32 industrialization so you always need 59:33 access to larger markets so a global 59:37 south trading block allows you access to 59:40 larger markets it also allows you to 59:42 leverage 59:43 complementary capabilities and resources 59:46 within the trading block 59:48 so that you're you're not limited with 59:50 resources or technical capabilities and 59:52 it gives you the larger market so that 59:54 you can hit those economies of scale 59:57 my advice is to not start those 60:00 strategic partnerships to compete with 60:02 boeing or airbus because that's not the 60:05 priority number one and it's very hard 60:08 to catch up with boeing from from from a 60:11 technological perspective but start with 60:13 the strategic areas that you need for 60:15 the collective resilience within the 60:18 trading block such as food security such 60:20 as energy security such as 60:23 basic research and development that will 60:25 strengthen that resilience over time for 60:28 example when it comes to manufacturing a 60:30 lot of countries in the global south 60:32 especially with the climate crisis that 60:34 we're facing um especially small island 60:37 nations need water storage capacity 60:39 water filtration capacity and as a small 60:43 country you can't really scale up an 60:45 industry for such a small market but you 60:46 can scale up an industry that 60:49 manufactures 60:50 water storage units and water filtration 60:52 capacity for a large market of 300 60:55 million consumers it's those types of 60:57 strategic investments that allow you 61:01 immediately to gain higher value added 61:03 content from that particular type of 61:05 manufacturing leverage complementary 61:07 resources and capabilities within the 61:10 block and serve the collective 61:12 resilience of the entire 61:14 region 61:15 and in the case of even food exports we 61:18 have a lot of developing countries who 61:20 dedicate the most precious water 61:22 resources and the most fertile land they 61:25 have to produce crops purely for exports 61:28 to serve say the european or the 61:30 american market like exporting 61:32 strawberries for example which is not an 61:34 important food security item for a 61:36 country like tunisia or morocco for 61:38 example but it's an export that brings a 61:40 lot of dollars and euros to allow those 61:43 countries to pay their external debt 61:44 yeah here what we're 61:46 going to jump in here fellow because i 61:48 know we're almost out of time here and i 61:50 wanted to put one question to 61:52 uh stephanie before we go which is again 61:54 from the q a from ellen helker negron 61:57 and excuse me if i pronounce your name 61:59 on that ellen but you know your thoughts 62:01 around the endless pursuit of growth and 62:04 that you know the the idea that maybe 62:06 growth is not the answer to any 62:08 everything stephanie do you want to make 62:09 a kind of passing or closing comment on 62:11 that 62:15 you're just on mute still .
Kelton：
62:17 you see 18 months into the pandemic and 62:19 all the zooming in 62:20 it would be 62:22 you know second nature to unmute 62:24 yourself but it's still not 62:25 uh yeah sure so look i'm very 62:28 sympathetic i like the question very 62:30 much i think that um growth in and of 62:33 itself is never the right objective of 62:36 economic policy and i think that so much 62:39 of the obsession with growth 62:42 around the world has to do with our 62:45 obsession with debt i mean if you think 62:48 about this you know governments becoming 62:51 obsessed with debt to gdp ratios and 62:53 buying into this idea that in fact 62:57 growth is the escape route to a debt 63:00 crisis if your debt to gdp ratio 63:03 is elevated the solution very often uh 63:07 the perceived solution is to just grow 63:10 the economy so that the denominator in 63:13 the equation massively increases 63:16 shrinking the ratio and that that is how 63:19 many governments uh think they are going 63:22 to keep the debt sustainable escape a 63:24 debt crisis and so forth and so i think 63:27 there there is a way in which mmt is 63:29 very important here in you know 63:31 resetting our understanding of 63:34 government debt and finance and you know 63:37 first i i think it's important and i 63:38 don't think it's come up yet but 63:40 governments that issue their own 63:41 currency never have to borrow it from 63:43 anyone right even the decision to sell 63:46 government bonds is a choice when you're 63:49 issuing bonds denominated in your own 63:51 currency and if you choose to offer 63:55 investors 63:56 an interest interest-bearing form of 63:58 your currency which is really what 63:59 government bonds are just interest 64:01 bearing dollars interest bearing yen 64:03 interest bearing pounds you can also set 64:06 the interest rate that you are willing 64:08 to pay on any bonds that you choose to 64:11 offer 64:12 so 64:13 that understanding i think helps us move 64:16 away from the growth obsession but then 64:19 as fodo's been talking about now you 64:21 know for some period of time uh there 64:24 are countries that are indebted deeply 64:27 in currencies that aren't their own and 64:29 for them this obsession with 64:32 generating revenue through exports to 64:34 grow the economy grow revenues to 64:37 satisfy foreign creditors is not as easy 64:41 to disregard and i think there are 64:43 things the international community can 64:44 do to help countries you know work out 64:48 um their their debt restructuring and 64:51 other sorts of things that that we can 64:53 and and i think probably should do 64:56 but uh in terms of just saying the the 64:59 key to success and the way to measure 65:01 the success of any economy is to look at 65:03 its real gdp growth rate and the bigger 65:05 that number the more successful that 65:07 economy 65:08 is almost by definition is clearly not 65:10 the way to go and it's not sustainable.
F：
65:14 fantastic well i know i know we're out 65:16 of time now 65:18 that i think this has been a really 65:19 important discussion for anyone who 65:21 hasn't read stephanie's book please buy 65:24 it and read it and it will really make 65:27 you sit down and think hard 65:30 watch the space regarding the work that 65:33 fadel is doing with ambassador moses 65:35 regarding naru it is a fascinating case 65:37 in point as to how these challenges can 65:40 be addressed 65:42 the whole point about thinking long term 65:44 is is close to my heart my first book 65:47 was all about the long term so always 65:49 i'm going to support that argument 65:52 and 65:54 i guess the 65:57 the other point i was going to draw out 65:58 which is this obsession we see exactly 66:01 as stephanie has said around company 66:03 countries being obsessed with gdp growth 66:06 we see the same in the private sector 66:08 companies pursuing turnover growth 66:10 ignoring whether it's profitable let 66:12 alone how much capital is associated 66:14 with that and that may seem crazy that 66:17 companies could chase something which 66:19 looks like it's a 66:20 lots of revenue and terrible return on 66:22 capital but we see it all the time and 66:24 it's just extraordinary and there there 66:26 clearly is a better way so stephanie 66:29 thank you so much fellow ambassador 66:31 moses it's been a wonderful discussion 66:33 there will be a recording of this to 66:35 everyone who wants to watch it again 66:37 and look out for our upcoming episodes 66:39 which is uh in a couple of weeks time we 66:42 have a preview of cop 26 with the title 66:45 cops and robbers and then the week after 66:47 that we have 60 minutes to save the 66:49 world which is looking at how we can all 66:52 take action in a small amount of time 66:55 each week 66:56 really to drive practical change by that 67:00 action by our political representatives 67:02 and indeed things we can do ourselves 67:04 and this is going to have a real live 67:06 demonstration of how to do it in the 67:08 middle of the episode for a bit of extra 67:09 fun so thank you for joining us and look 67:12 forward to seeing you all again soon
。。。
21:28~ 36:11
ケルトン：
簡単な紹介をさせていただきますので、mmtの核となる信条のいくつかをレイアウトしようとする本を最近執筆し、出版した今日の私がいる場所へのこの旅を知っていることをお伝えしたいと思います。お金の性質を取り巻く多くの神話や誤解を破り、税金や政府の借入債務や赤字の役割に対処します。ええと、これを本に載せているのはご存知でしょう。これは約四半世紀前に私が始めた旅です。ケンブリッジ大学で経済学を勉強していたので、大学院にいて、ウォーレンという名前の人の仕事に出くわしました。モスラーはおそらく多くの人にはなじみのある名前ですが、おそらくすべての人にはなじみがないので、ウォーレンはそうではありません。本当に経済学者です。つまり、彼は経済学の学士号を持っていますが、彼は金融市場で働いていたので、ウォーレンは自分自身をインサイダー、金融インサイダーと表現することがあります。そして私はそれだと思います」
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21:28私はあなたと一緒にいることを嬉しく思います21:30この21:32に私を含めてくれてありがとう21:40の考えをあなたと共有するために、21：42ええと、21：44の時間を少し取って、21：47の幅広いブラシストロークを提供します。21：
49は、21：53のサムネイルスケッチのようなものを持っているのは初めてではありません21:56これはこの21:59フォーラム22:01にうまく統合されていることを理解していますが、初めて22:02に参加します。22：06の非常に簡単な紹介22:08を紹介します。22：11今日の私がいる場所へのこの旅を知っています22:14最近書かれ、22のいくつかをレイアウトしようとする22:17の本を出版しました：19
mmtとバストの核となる信条と22:22は、多くの神話と22:24お金の性質を取り巻く誤解に対処します22:27お金の役割と22:30政府の借金と赤字22:33
uh 22
：34あなたは私がこれを本の中でレイアウトしていることを知っていますこの22:36は私のために始まった旅です22:38約四半世紀前私は22:40ケンブリッジで経済学を勉強していました22:42大学22:44だから私は大学院22:46にいたのですが、22：51という名前の誰かがウォーレンモスラーという名前の仕事に出くわしました。
23:02経済学23:03で学士号を取得していることを意味しますが、彼は23:06金融市場で働いていたので、23：10ウォーレンは時々自分自身を説明します23：12インサイダーとして金融インサイダー23:15そして私は23:18が彼に23:20私の23:23の職業のほとんどの人々が率直に言って欠けていたようなものを見ることができたのはその経験だと思いますええと、彼らは23:27
23:29に、金融市場がどのように機能するかについての23:31の仕組みの運用レベルの種類を理解していませんでした。より明確に23:41彼がしたことは、彼が最初に小さな本または小さな23:46パンフレットに彼の考えを書き留めたことでした。彼が23:53に意図したのは、23：54の23:56のようなもので、ハードカレンシーだと思います。23：59ソフトカレンシー24:01は、金本位制ではなく、固定24：03為替レートシステムですが、ブレトンウッズ後の24:11の時代に1971年以降、24：13の世界の国々のほとんどが24:16の通貨を変動させていたため、ウォーレンの考えは基本的に24:20になりました。通貨制度24:23国際通貨制度と24:28に24:28に実施されていた24:24通貨制度は、世界の多くの地域で基本的に24:30に変更されましたが、24：33はそれを維持していませんでした。
24:36の変更で進化していなかったし、24：39の対話のほとんどが経済モデルと理論を議論している24:42はある意味でまだ24:44のために書かれ、私のように24:47学生に教えられていた私は24:49のようにケンブリッジにいましたが、古い24:52システムの下で、金の24:54標準的な考え方のハードカレンシーで運用していました24：56そして、ええと、ウォーレンはそれが24:59間違っていると思い、彼はこの本25:04で小さな本25:02ソフト通貨経済学をフォローアップしました。
25:09は、25：12を修正するためにいくつかの神話を破ることです。この本は25:13と呼ばれていると考えています。私は25:22にあなたが見つけることができるpdfがあり、25：24に無料でオンラインでアクセスできると思うので、25：26に興味があるなら、25：27ええと、ウォーレンはこれらのアイデアを25:30に25:32に出しました。私が最初に25:33に遭遇したとき25:34私は25:36ウォーレンは完全に間違っていると思った25:38私は25の主要な大学の1つで25:40を勉強しているのはなぜ正しくないのか：41世界25：42ウォーレンが25:50の最初の小さな本で言っていたすべてのことと基本的に25:47に反する、25：45の何かを教えられています。
25:55は、世界のトップ25:57エコノミストの何人かによって訓練されており、彼らは25:58で、ウォーレンが26:01と主張していたのとは反対のことを言っていました。
：06なぜ私は26:07ウォーレンを信じるのか、それでもウォーレンが26:11彼の議論を提示した方法について何かがありました26:19の学部生として、財務と会計およびウォーレン26:22は、26：25を使用して、26：24に彼の議論を提示しました。彼は、26：28に、借方と26:30の貸方を設定する彼の仕事を示します。
26を歩く：32の貸借対照表エントリとあなたはそれを知っている26:35あなたがそれをするとき26:37あなたは本当にあなた自身を開いている26:39なぜなら読者はバランス26:45のときに議論の26:42の欠陥を簡単に見つけることができるからですロジックに26:47の内訳があり、26：49が明確に配置されている場合、シートのバランスが取れていません。26：52なので、彼は賢い人であり、26：54の成功した投資家であることがわかりました。明るい26:57の人の議論は、27：02で不快だった27:00の場所につながっていました。これも、私が学んでいた27:04の反対であり、27：06でそれを振ることができなかったためです。
27:09ええと、彼が言っていたことが真実であり、27：12議論に欠陥を見つけることができなかったので、27：14の大学院生として、この種の27:16のことを勉強し始めました。
27：18
27:21と呼ばれる論文を書く27:24のような27:26の異なる金融制度の下での政府財政の理解またはそれらの線に沿った27:28そして基本的に27:30私がしたことは私が27：
33はウォーレンの議論に満足していました27:35私は自分で27:37を処理し、27：39の電話に乗って、27：42の財務省や連邦政府、読書で人々と話しているのを読んで、それを部分的に行いました27:45あなたはある種の操作マニュアルを知っています27:47それはすべてどのように機能するかを知っていますそして27:50これを理解して27:52テストに入れますそしてそしてええとあなたはストレステストを知っています27:55ウォーレンの議論私は推測しますそして私は27:58を管理して、ウォーレンが28:00を正しく持っていて、28：02のほとんどが逆になっていて、28：04は非常に不快な28：07最初は私にとって28:09ええと、28：11は、28：17の常識と、時には多大なコストがかかる28:19に合わせるよりも、28：13を正しくすることが重要だと思います。
28:23ええと、あなたは間違いなく28:26おそらく28:28異端者として、または彼らの思考において28:31正統ではない誰かとして、そして28:35は他の人々を28：
37あなたを真剣に受け止めますが、28：39が過去28:42四半世紀にわたって私たちに起こったこと、または私たちが28:44にいたので、これは28:46私たちの信頼性が28:48だけ強化されたということですそして、28：52の多くが現在28:53でmmtを取得しており、洞察を真剣に受け止めている理由の大部分は28:58です。これは、過去25年ほどで29:01を取得して29:01の実績を蓄積しているためです。04私は29:07見ながら、経済学へのより一般的な29:10のアプローチは、29：13ユーロの導入を知っているかどうかにかかわらず、29：13を広く見逃す可能性があると思います。
：20通貨であるという29:24のソブリン通貨を保持することの重要性29:26のソブリンと29:29が29:34の通貨と29:36をあきらめたこれらの11の29:32の国の通貨の主権を放棄した結果1999年1月29:38からユーロを使用することを決定しました29:40ウォーレンモスラーと他の多くのええと29：44mmtエコノミストは、通貨が公式に29になる前の29:49でさえ29:46非常に迅速にこれを検討しました：51紹介私は29:54が私のphd論文を書いていて、他の29:56
mmtエコノミストが公に警告していたときにそれについて書いていました30：00これは、この30:02がソブリン通貨を放棄し、30：05が完全な30:07財政連合なしで共通通貨を採用するようなものでした。30：09は、30：11の国を離れるようなものでした。景気後退の結果、30：17は30:18に十分な力で行動できず、30：22は30:24であったものを実質的に外貨で借りることになるという30:20の方針を使用して脆弱です。
27債務危機まで、つまり、これらは30:29のようなものであり、30：31の人々は、30：33は、私たちが夢中になっているに違いないことを知っていると考えていました。
30:39すべての権利これらの国々は互いに30:41の大量の貿易を行っていたので、30：43共通のええと30:45をあきらめてソブリン通貨をあきらめることの害は何ですか30：共通通貨の48は、1つの通貨で30:52を運用するために、30：50全体をより効率的にするだけなので、30：56だけではありませんでしたが、30：59が私たちの立場をとるのはかなり寂しかったです。
1990年代の31:04の後半に、31：02を取り戻しましたが、もちろん31:07が正しいことが判明しました。その後、量的緩和を伴う31:09の大不況により、31：12は次のような見解を示しました。非常に異なる31:14ラインハルトとロゴフは有名に31:16の紙の債務危機の警告を発表し、債務とgdpの比率が31:22に達したときに31:19ポイントを傾けました。
31:28多くの政府が31:31を緊縮財政に転換する31:33金融危機後、私たちが31:35非常に時期尚早であった31:35：38は、31：42を通過した後、財政の抑制にピボットします。池の向こう側で31:53を見て、31：55ギリシャとスペインとポルトガル、31：57アイルランドとイタリアなどで、31：58これは私たち32:00である可能性があり、ええとmmtはmmtエコノミスト32と言っていました。
：03もちろん、それは私たちにはなり得ないと言っていました32:05私たちはソブリン32:07通貨で運営しているので、32：09非常に早い段階からこれを理解したことを知っています32:14
32:17の政策空間について考え、国が32:23を運営し、32：26の経済政策を32:28の国民の最大の利益と利益に向けなければならない32:19の能力を考える32：30ある国は、インフレを低く抑えながら32:33の完全雇用を達成できるか、32：40をどうやって達成できるか、そして32:40何十年もの間、私たちは世界中で信頼してきました32
：45カ国は中央銀行に依存して32:47経済を運営し、32：50を負担し、経済を運営する責任のすべてではないにしても32:53を負担し、mmtは常に32:56を持っています32:58その33:01アプローチで見られた欠陥と問題ええと、あまりにも多くの負担が33:03を中央銀行に課しました。
33:15に完全雇用と物価安定33:18の目標を達成するために、財政政策33:13に依存しているので、33：21は、常に33であったと言って締めくくります。24国を見ることが重要であり、33：26は33:29の個人ベースでその国の能力を評価します。なぜなら、33：32の金銭的主権は33:34の黒でも白でもないので、スイッチを切るとあなたもそれを持っていない33
：36または持っていない33:38ポリシースペースがある国は多い33:41ポリシースペースが少ない33:43国は33:45をはるかに超えているため、33：47を利用します33:51苦しみ33:53と経済的コストと社会的33:55コストと33:58が人口によって生まれる環境コストの観点から有害です34:01国34:01は信じてまるで彼らがその種の古い固定34:06為替レートゴールドスタンダードフレームワーク34:08に制約されているかのように動作し、彼らは34：を持っていないと思います。09彼らが行動するための政策スペース34:12彼らの債務比率34:16が34:20から借りなければならない特定のレベル34：18umに達した場合、金融市場はすぐに34:14彼らに反対する可能性があると言われました34:22の支出を賄うための民間の貯蓄者であり、赤字34:24が大きいほど、借り入れがより集中的になり、34：26の金利が上昇し、34：29の民間投資の混雑が遅くなります。成長と34:31のすべてが、時間の経過とともに34:34になり、政府は34:38に権利を差し控えました。34：39
[音楽]
34:40有害な方法で政策34:43を抑制するものさて、私たちは34:47を見て、あなたはこれを聞いたと思います。34：48の冒頭のビデオで、34：53のスペクトルを考えて、34：53の終わりに行きます。56は、35：00米国のような34:58の高度な通貨主権国であると想像できますが、確かに米国だけでなく、日本や英国のような35:02国35:04オーストラリアカナダニュージーランド中国多くの35:07国が持っています多くの35:10の政策空間では、通貨システムは35:13に設定されています35:14は、変動する35:17の為替レートを発行する権利を許可します。ファドが35:25他の種類のumについてもっと話すことを知っている35:28を35:31の政策空間のより大きな程度の財政空間に生じさせるもの35:33主権エネルギー主権など35:35
35:38の通貨システムを変更し、35：40で通貨をペグするか、35：43の固定為替レートに移行するか、35：45他の国の通貨を完全に採用する35：47ええとあなたは35:50の政策スペースを犠牲にしているあなたは35:53の金銭的主権を犠牲にしているそしてそれであなたの36:00の経済に人生を向上させるような投資をするために35:58の容量の35:56をたくさん犠牲にしている36:04ええと、私は36:06に行ったような気がするので、おそらく長すぎるので、36：08を一時停止し、36：09の議論の時間があることを知っています。
F.カボウブ：
36:12ありがとうステファニーこれは非常に役に立った36:14だったので、36：16に基づいて構築し、大使モーゼスええと36:21が彼女に言及した36:18の課題のいくつかに接続します開会の辞36:23そして私は36:25を始めます。私が36:29のときに大学院でステファニー36:27を始めたところから始めます。これらすべてを学び、36：30の伝統的な経済学のアプローチと36:32を学びました。経済学へのmmtとポストケインズ派の36:34制度派経済学のアプローチ36:36、特にお金とお金と36:38の銀行業を、チュニジアの36:41の発展途上国と36:43のグローバルな南36で育った人として学ぶ：44私の当面の注意は、36：47に、これらの36:50 um 36:52この分析フレームワークをどのように取り、36：54のグローバルサウスのコンテキストで36:54に適用するかを知っていることです。56ええと、36：58が実質的に異なる国で37:00に挑戦しているのは、米国の日本や37:02のカナダと言うのとは異なり、これは過去20年ほどの私の37:04の旅のようなものです37:07適応に取り組んでいますそして、37：11 mmtフレームワークを開発37:13の課題に合わせて調整しましたが、最初は37:16気候変動に興味がありませんでした37:18それ自体または農業または37:20再生可能エネルギーまたはそれらのいずれか物事37:22カジュアルな興味以外37:25学問や政策の意味ではない37:27興味はあるが、お金と37:30の開発への興味は、37：32を食品主権の問題に直結させた。 ：35エネルギー主権は37:36相互に関連しているため、たとえば、ケルトン博士が言及した37:41の金銭的主権のスペクトルについて37:39を考えると、37：44ええと、数分前に37:48について考えてみてください。37：50が実際に37:52を決定する要素は、37：54の国が持つことができる通貨の主権の量を決定します。37：56その通貨を認識することは重要です。 37:58主権はあなたが政府として宣言するものではありません37:59それはあなたが戦略的な38:03投資で獲得するものです38:05だから38:08発行能力がある国を考えてください自国通貨38:11チェコは米国のような国です日本38:13カナダなど38:16同じ38:18国の通貨チェックで建てられた税金を徴収できる国38:20第2の非常に重要な国38:22しかし、最も重要なのは、38：26が債券のみを発行するか、債務を発行するのは38:28であり、38：28ではなく自国通貨建ての国です。外貨で31、言い換えれば38:33に借り入れを避け、外貨で38:35を返済することを約束します。これは、38：37を外貨で38:39と呼ぶ外部債務債務と呼びます。ほとんどの開発途上国を参照してください38:43は構造的な問題を抱えており、38：46は常にどんどん大きくなっていきます38:48ドル建ての38:50の対外債務と日本円の38:52ユーロなど38:55私はこれを見始めました38:57あなたが39:06が存在することを認識している課題を39:04深く掘り下げ始めると、39：00に国が39:02の外貨で借りることを強制するものは何であるか疑問に思います39:08のほとんどの開発途上国の構造的貿易赤字は39:11であり、3つの主要な構成要素によって駆動されています。14の開発途上国は一般に39:17に食品の輸入に大きく依存しています。なぜなら、39：19には食品の安全性がなく、39：21の食品主権がないからです。貿易赤字の39:28の大きな要素を構成し、39：30の結果として外部債務が発生します。これは、39：34が石油と化石の大規模な輸出国であった国でも39:32です。原油を輸出する39:39、ガソリンや39:43灯油などの精製された石油化学物質39:45を輸入するため、経済的な39:47の開発に必要な、消費できないために燃料を供給します。 39:48原油は役に立たないので、39：51精製能力のある国に39:51輸出する必要があります。そうすれば、39：53が可能になります。56ガソリンと灯油を輸入するので、39：58は基本的に低付加価値の40:01含有量の原油を輸出し、40：04は高付加価値の40:06含有量のガソリンや40:08灯油などの石油化学物質を輸入します。これが2番目の40:11構造的弱点であり、3番目の40:13は工業化構造的40:15弱点であり、開発途上国40:18は時間の経過とともに40:21を40：23uhアセンブリに特化する傾向がありました。ラインタイプの製造40:25言い換えれば、低付加価値のコンテンツ40:28製造の40:28は、資本を40:29輸入する必要があることを意味します。付加価値の低い40:41の追加コンテンツをエクスポートするために、産業用40:38開発に燃料を供給するための燃料なので、そのスペースでは40：44競争する唯一の方法は、基本的に40:46が、環境40:50標準労働基準などの観点から40:48労働のコストの点で最下位に競争することです。貿易赤字がある場合、これは40:57です。これは構造的な41:04貿易がある場合の実際の41:02制約であるため、40：58から41:00までの人々にここをフォローしてもらいたい重要なポイントです。毎年赤字は41:07に41:11ユーロに対してドルに対して41:09下向きにあなたの通貨の価値を強制するのであなたの通貨が弱いとき41:13あなたの通貨が主要通貨に対して41:15に対して下落するときすべて翌朝の41:17のインポートは、41：19のコストが高くなるため、文字通り41:21のインフレーションをインポートし、41：24は非常に敏感です。食料価格41:26インフレと燃料価格インフレと41:28について今日まで多くの国で話している41:31この種の41:36輸入インフレに関連する食料暴動と社会的および政治的41:34不安定性言い換えれば、このタイプのインフレと戦うための41:39の最良の方法41:42とこれらの構造的な弱点は、41：46までに問題の根源に行き、41：49の食物の程度を増やすための戦略を開発することです。 41:52食料安全保障を生産することにより、41：53国内で41:56の程度を高め、41：58は、エネルギーのない食料なしでは、42：00の世界のどこでも経済を実際に運営することはできないため、42：02これらは、42：05の前に、42：07の国際貿易と輸出指向のことについて考え始める前の基本的な基盤です。09は最初に強固な基盤を構築する必要があります42:12あなたの経済を保護し絶縁するために42:15輸入インフレのリスクから42:17国を弱体化させ、42：19の結果として国を即時の42:21バンドに強制します- 42:23長期的な問題に対処していない場合の援助ソリューション42:25構造上の問題バンドエイドソリューション42:27は、42：30の食糧助成燃料を助成するためにお金を借りることです42： 32ドルに対する42:34の為替レートを人為的に修正するために42:36ユーロに対して42:38これは42:38ほとんどの開発途上国42:41が何十年も苦労してきた罠でしたが42:43私にとってこれらの42:46トラップ42:48の主流の解決策は、実際には42:50がこれらのトラップをさらに強制するメカニズムであり、42：52にすばやくリストして、42：54私が話していることを理解する42:57多くの主流の経済学者と42:59の開発機関は、43：01がこの貧困の罠から抜け出すために、43：03から43:04がより多くの輸出収入を生み出す必要があると言っています。輸出43:06より速く外国の直接投資をもたらす43:08より多くの輸出に燃料を供給する問題は43:10輸出するためにはあなたが43:12を輸入しなければならない中間商品43:15が43:16を輸入しなければならない高付加価値コンテンツと43:18エクスポート低付加価値コンテンツ43:20はさらに多くの燃料を輸入して43:23経済を工業化する必要があるため、43：24は常に経済を弱体化させています43:27 「43:29は実際にははしごを上っていないので、43：31は、高付加価値の43:33コンテンツを作成するために話します。彼らは、観光に依存していると言っています。43：35は、何百万もの観光客を連れてきます。」43:36あなたにドルとユーロをもたらしますそしてそれはあなたがあなたの食糧輸入43:40とあなたの43:41債務などの支払いをすることを可能にします43:43あなたがしなければならない何百万もの観光客を連れてくるとき43:44それらに餌を与えて、より多くの食料輸入を追加します43:46そして、それらを熱輸送し、43：48ホテルを冷やす必要があるので、さらに43:50さらに多くの化石燃料を輸入し、43：53より多くの食料を輸入することになります。その罠43:57で再び構造的に43:55なので、これらの伝統的な政策43:59の解決策はすべて、無料の44:01貿易主導、観光主導、または44:04輸出主導のいずれであっても、これらすべてが強化されています44： 07それらの罠はさらに44:09とさらなる外部債務を蓄積し、44：11の結果としてそれらの国の経済的44:14金銭的主権を弱め、その結果あなたの44：44:20国際社会における19の政治的主権、言い換えれば44:22次の日、44：30の人々が食料や燃料がなく、44：32は社会的、44：33の政治的不安定性がありますが、44：36の食料安全保障、エネルギーの安全保障、44：39のこれらの外部ショックに対する回復力がある場合は、44：41になる可能性があります。 44:43あなたの44:45国際協定に関してより選択的44:47あなた自身の条件を設定することができます44:49そしてあなたは交渉44:51テーブルと私が44:53明確にしようとしてきたことから離れることができます何年もの間、44：55、レジリエンスの観点から45:01を考えている開発途上国の44:59ブロックがある場合、44：57はさらに簡単になります45：03レジリエンスに焦点を当てた経済開発45:07従来のモデルの45:07抽出経済開発とは対照的に、45：10死主導の45:12経済開発そしてこれは45:14になり、これで締めくくります45:16今日直面している気候45:18の課題を考えると非常に重要です45:20気候の課題は単なる技術的または技術的な課題ではないため45:24技術はたくさんありますが、45：27問題ええと、ある程度45:29は、45：32が45:35抽出45:36を生成する汚染を生成するという経済エンジンを変更し、これらの抽出45:38メカニズム45:40と45:41を強化し、45：を再考することを意味します。 4345：46の古い経済開発エンジンから45:48の新しい経済開発エンジンへの移行にどのように資金を提供するか45：あなたが45:52産業45:57革命以来ほとんどの45：55co2排出に責任がある人を考えるとき、それは明らかに世界の北です46:00それは世界の南ではありませんそれは46ではありません：01発展途上国ですが、46：03の気候変動の最前線にいるのは、主に46:08の場合、南北46:05です。 46:15の場合、どの国が46:18の技術にアクセスでき、46：21の変革が可能であり、46：23の場合、気候変動への影響は、再び46:25の場合、南北になります。グローバルな46:31金融アーキテクチャを再設計するという46:27の集団的責任は、私たちが行っている46:33経済エンジンを再設計することです。46:38の移行を加速するために、46：36をグローバルに使用してきました46:39は、グローバルな46:44の南だけでなく、グローバルな北の46:46でも、46：42ではなくグリーンで回復力のある経済になります。私はそれを46:48の質問とコメントのために開きたいと思います、そして私は46:50に大使46:54モーゼス46:54とケルトン博士からもフォローアップがあれば聞いてみたいです46： 57のコメントええとここでナイジェルはあなたが47:00に私たちをqaに導きたいと思います素晴らしいはいそして47:03は絶対にステファニーを私たちに再び参加するように招待します47:05そして大使モーゼスそして47:07の素晴らしい質問があります47:10開始するのに適した場所47:12アフリカにいる人47:13からです。47：15のゲストがいます。今日はすべての大陸から47:17と思います。これは素晴らしいことで、47：18の一部が稼働しています。非常に遅いので47をありがとう：20遅くまで起きていて、彼は私が47:22に、西側の47:24の企業に、47：27の搾取的なアプローチから実際に47:30が包括的開発をサポートするアプローチに変更するよう説得する方法を考えていたと言います。私は47歳です。 ：32少し言い換えると、47：35の例として、ナミビアで提案されているグリーン47:37水素プロジェクトがあります。47：39は別のプロジェクトについて読んでいます。47：42あなたがフィデルに近いことを知っています。 47:44は再生可能エネルギーとの関係で47:46チュニジアで起こっているか起こっていないので、それは質問47:51の最初の部分の47:49のようなものであり、それから私たちはそれを47:53の世界に持っていくことができるかどうかを考えますもちろん47:54には独自の通貨がなく、47：56オーストラリアドルを使用しているナルは、47：59が48を回復するための経路があることを知っています。01金銭的主権なので、おそらく48:03は、アフリカでの48:05プロジェクトを知っているあなたの詳細から始めるべきであり、48：07は、商業的な48:09ビジネスにそれらをサポートさせる方法があります。 48:12金銭的主権の奪還48:14チャレンジ48:16非常に良い質問48:18まず、48：19の議論から始めましょう。48：21の水分補給とええとそして、このスペースでのこのええとでの48:24ビジネスの役割の種類48:27 um 48:29現在、特にドイツの48:34のリーダーシップで、48：31には多くの関心があります。再生可能な48:35エネルギー、特に48:39グリーン水素に投資し、アフリカ全土で48:41実際にはナミビアと南アフリカ48:42チュニジアとモロッコでプロジェクトがあります48：44や他の場所ですが、残念ながら48:46はまだ同じ抽出モデルの一部です48:49これらすべての太陽光への投資48:52アフリカ、特にチュニジアと48:54モロッコでは48:57エネルギーを提供することは実際にはありませんチュニジアまたはモロッコのセキュリティ48:59ナミビアのセキュリティ49:03の戦略的な場所を使用して、グリーン水素49:05と太陽光を生成し、それをeuに49:09にエクスポートすると、eu49：13のエネルギーセキュリティが向上します。まだ抽出的49:15まだ緑49:16抽出的ええとモデルそして私は49:20です私が主張してきたのはチュニジアのような国のための49:22ナミビアのような49:23の国のためですまたはまたはモロッコから49:26まで、石炭と化石燃料の輸入を継続49:29し、それでも、私が話したチュニジアの場合49:32の大容量の再生可能エネルギーを持っています。34それについてかなり49:36現在49:37の計画があり、4ギガワットの49:40の太陽エネルギーを49:44の海底ケーブルを経由して49:43に、49：47にイタリアに輸出します。他の場所では、チュニジアの49:50の総エネルギー需要と電力は49:53 4ギガワットですが、すべてが49:55でEUに輸出され、チュニジアの再生可能エネルギー容量は49:58ゼロになります。誇張して、50：02パーセントの再生可能エネルギー容量が3つあり、50：05は、経済のニーズに応えるために化石燃料を50:07まで輸入し続けます。また、先に述べたように、50：10は構築できません。 50:12エネルギー安全保障のない回復力のある経済50:14エネルギー安全保障のない50:17そして50:17輸出志向の成長の考え方なぜ50:19これらの4ギガワットが50に輸出されたので：21 euは、チュニジア50:24が50:27の自家エネルギーで自国の食料を輸入するために使用するユーロを生成します。これは、50：30が私たちが話している50:29の回復力のモデルではありません。 euとのリンク50:32を切断し、50：35以外の輸出を行わないようにする必要があります。関係は、植民地および植民地後の地域のように50:37抽出ではなく、50：41のレジリエンスベースの協力である必要があります。 50:45ヨーロッパの技術を使用して、50：50アフリカ諸国の容量と輸出余剰の両方を50:48構築し、50：53は再生可能エネルギーの生産と研究への投資と50:57開発をスケールアップすることができます。思考のシフト50:59ですが、現時点では、51：01は、51：06がそのような回復力を構築することを目的とした51:04の大規模プロジェクトを1つも見ていません。08はほとんど51:09の再生可能エネルギーを少し与えますそしてそれはほとんど51:11ですそれは彼らがとにかく使うことができないのは余剰の再生可能51:15エネルギーです51:17それを地元のグリッドに売ります51 ：19ええと、しかしそれは実際には51:22の地域経済を変革するためのものではありません51:26そしてステファニーは51:28の国があなたが知っている51:30の主権を回復するための道があります：51の場合： 33狭い51:34は本質的にそれを持っていなかった51:36それは51:37オーストラリアの世界から出てきたので何51:38彼らはどのように考えるべきか51:42よく私は彼らがもっと長く考えるべきだと思う51:44学期。とにかく彼らは51:17それを地元のグリッドに売ります51:19ええと、しかしそれは実際には地元の経済を変革するための51:22のためのものではありません51:26そしてステファニーは51:28の国が彼らを回復するための道がありますあなたが知っている金銭的な51:30の主権または51:33の場合は51:34は本質的にそれを持っていませんでした51:36それは51:37がオーストラリアの世界から出てきたので51:42をよく考えてください私は彼らが51:44の期間をもっと長く考えるべきだと思います。とにかく彼らは51:17それを地元のグリッドに売ります51:19ええと、しかしそれは実際には地元の経済を変革するための51:22のためのものではありません51:26そしてステファニーは51:28の国が彼らを回復するための道がありますあなたが知っている金銭的な51:30の主権または51:33の場合は51:34は本質的にそれを持っていませんでした51:36それは51:37がオーストラリアの世界から出てきたので51:42をよく考えてください私は彼らが51:44の期間をもっと長く考えるべきだと思います。37はオーストラリアの世界から出てきました。51：38経路は何ですか。51：42をよく考える必要があります。51：44の期間を長く考える必要があると思います。37はオーストラリアの世界から出てきました。51：38経路は何ですか。51：42をよく考える必要があります。51：44の期間を長く考える必要があると思います。
ケルトン：〜53：02
ええと、フィデルが言ったように、これは明日51:49朝起きて、51：51解放され、通貨の主権者であると宣言できる51:47ではありません。これは51:56です。これは長期戦略計画です。 51:59は、学者として、私がこれら2つの52:01ワードの戦略的計画を嫌うことを意味します。そして、fodoがちょうど52:12であった種類の52:10の投資を行い、52：17を達成するための産業能力における52:13を説明します。 4番目と52:26それはちょうどあなたが52:28通貨52:31を導入することができ、ナウルの場合は52:34の国のケースで再導入することができます52：36は通貨を導入できます52:39通貨を最初から立ち上げることができ、52：42は時間の経過とともにその通貨を構築し、52：46は現在52:51が正しい取引を支配している外貨52:48をゆっくりと置き換えます52 ：53交換および支払いシステムなど52:56ですが、これは長期的な52:59プロジェクトです。53：00おそらく致命的であるため、53：02に追加することがあります。
NS：
53:03ええまた私は53:05に戻りますあなたがいつも53:07はあなたが知っているステファニーを参照しているという説明53:09通貨ユーザー対通貨発行者53:12の国通貨ユーザーは、53：14を使うために収入を持ち込む必要があり、53：17は、53：18が輸出、フィッシング、53：20ライセンス、鉱業の輸出、または53:24の援助のために、これらのドルを持ち込む必要があります。 53:27は、53：29に2つの方法で使うことができます。バンドエイドタイプの方法で、53：32を経済発展の既存のモデル53:34と混同し続けることができます。 53:36トラップは必然的に発生します。または、53：43でコアを構築している53:41戦略計画を介して、これらの53:39ドルを変革的な方法で使用することもできます。ある最小レベルの53:47食料安全保障の45の基盤いくつかの最小レベルの53:50再生可能エネルギー安全保障そして53:52は、多様化とたとえばフィッシング54:07ライセンスを発行するなど、54：01の付加価値の高い54:04コンテンツを取得するということは、他の国の54:11漁船が54:12の権利を持っていることを意味します。 14魚を生産するために、54：18に自分の領土を利用し、54：24の一定レベルの54:26の食料安全保障とエネルギー安全保障を構築すると、基本的に54:20の削減が得られます。戦略的な54:35協力54:37のための新しい条件でそれらの釣り54:33ライセンスの交渉を開始しますが、最小54:37がない場合：39レベルの食料安全保障あなたは54:43と言うので、実際には何も交渉することはできません54:43これは54:45の取引ですが、特定の54:47レベルのセキュリティを構築するとあなたはよく言うことができます54:49私たちは54:54の経済発展の次のステップ54:53を開発したいと思います54:56の処理とええと55:00の輸出のための魚の包装私は例を作っているだけですここで55:02は、55：08を持っている国と55:05をコラボレーションできることを意味します。55：09の容量技術容量ええと55:12の配布容量を知っています。 17開発し、より多くの雇用を創出し始めます55:20国内で55:22より高い付加価値のコンテンツを輸出から抽出します55:25そしてそれは55:27別の収入源55の源になります：29テクノロジーはアクセスソース55:32を他の市場に転送し、55：34の次のレベルの可能性をもたらします。 42通貨ですが、55：45にその程度の自律性をさらに獲得するための戦略的計画があります55:48最初に55:50経済的に、そしてあなたがそうすることに気づいたら、55：52は実際に55:54独自の通貨システムを実行する能力を持っています55:57の対外債務の罠に陥ると、56：00の自国通貨を使用でき、56：05が食品の輸入を介して輸入された56:08のインフレを生成しないように56:03の為替レートを管理できます。そして、56：10のほとんどの開発途上国は通常56:13に分類されるエネルギー輸入なので、56：15について考える方法は実際には56:15です。18より高度な経済的56:20と金銭的主権を獲得する56:24それは魅力的なパドリングです56:25影の中にいくつかの素晴らしい質問があります56:27私たちがそこに着く直前に56:29を取り上げます56:30私が言いたかったコメントの1つは、56：32には、56：38には規模の経済がほとんどない環境があり、56：39には、非常に多くのことができるということです。小規模ソーラーと56:42費用対効果が非常に高い56:44小規模の持続可能な農業と56:46費用対効果が高いため、かつては考えられなかった56:48のことを56:51小規模コミュニティでかなり実用的に実装できます56:53ご存知のように、例を絞り込みます。56：55人口は、50000 56:58のようなものです。私が正しい数を持っていれば、56：59はそう思います。s57：00ごめんなさい12000大丈夫私がイギリスで育った村より57:03小さいので57:05小さい57:07そして私が57:09を引き出すつもりだった質問はそれが相互に関連しているカップルでした57 ：11の事柄と1人の大使モーゼ57:13は、57：14の開発途上国が57:22の南南貿易の代替貿易圏を効果的に確立して、 57:24は北と57:26の西でより発展した世界であり、おそらくジェシカ・マーグリンからのこの57:29に関連するポイントは57:31です。 57:38で、たとえば57:40で、57：41の値を57:43のデジタル通貨の形式で提供できる方法があることを考えておく必要があります。45国民が利用できる57:48それから財政的な外部の57:50援助を個人の手に委ねるつまり57:52私はあなたの考えよりも速い57:55それらの問題のいくつか57:59ええとアンバサダーモーゼスは58:02言い訳をしなければならないようです58:04アンバサダーモーゼスに58:05参加してくれてありがとう、そして次の会議で58:08と58:09 uh 58:10 uh 58： 11とあなたが出席しなければならない会議58:13から58：14um58：16ありがとうございました58:18ありがとうございました58:19後で会いましょうありがとう58:22ナイジェル私は喜んで話しますええと、58：25南南ええと戦略的パートナーシップ58:28そして私が58:30の単純な比喩から始めることができれば、58：32国際58:33貿易における支配的な物語は、貿易は良い貿易貿易であるということです。 58：36は健康ですええと競争は健康です58:38スポーツと同じようにみんなのために58:40ボクシングの58:42スポーツを除いて競争はあなたにとって良いです例えば58:45はヘビー級ボクシングを決して許しません58:47チャンピオン軽量の58:49ボクシングチャンピオンのリングそれは違法ですそれは醜いです58:52誰もそれを見たくありませんそして私たちはそれを健康またはまたは良いとは呼びません58:56それでも私たちは国際的な58:58貿易でそれを許可しますヘビー級の59:00産業大国が、59：03の軽量の小さな発展途上国の59:05産業を破壊することを許可し、それを健全と呼びます。59：07は自由貿易と呼ぶので、南59:10南貿易または戦略的パートナーシップのアイデア59 ：13は平等の間の競争は健全です59:16ええと、ポイントナンバーワンポイントナンバー59:18 2つの小さな発展途上国はできません59：21は、59：23の国内市場が非常に小さいため59:25非常に工業化されています。より大きな市場への59:33アクセスが常に必要であるため、グローバルな59:37南取引ブロックでは59:40のより大きな市場へのアクセスが可能であり、取引ブロック内で59:43補完機能とリソース59:46を59:42活用することもできます。 59:48だから、59：50のリソースや技術的能力に制限されることはなく、59：52はより大きな市場を提供するので、59：54は規模の経済に打撃を与えることができます59:57私のアドバイスは60:05の優先順位1ではなく、非常に難しい60:02のボーイングやエアバスと競争するために、これらの60:00の戦略的パートナーシップを開始しないでください。08 60:11の技術的観点からボーイングに追いつくが、60：13から始めて、60：15に必要な戦略的領域、60：20のような食料安全保障などの60:18の取引ブロック内の集合的な回復力60:23のようなエネルギー安全保障60:25は、特に気候危機を伴う世界南部60:32の60:30の多くの国の製造に関して、60：28の例で時間の経過とともにその回復力を強化します。その60:34私たちは特に小さな島に直面しています60:37国は貯水能力を必要とします60:39水ろ過能力そして小さな60:43の国としてあなたはそのような小さなために60:45産業を実際に拡大することはできません市場ですが、60：46は、60：49が60:50の貯水ユニットと水ろ過を製造する業界を拡大することができます60：300 60：55百万の消費者の大市場向けの52の容量それは、61：01がその特定のタイプの61:05製造レバレッジ補完61からより高い付加価値61:03コンテンツをすぐに得ることを可能にする60:57戦略的投資のタイプです：07 61:10ブロック内のリソースと機能は、61：14地域全体の61:12の回復力をまとめて提供します。61：15食品の輸出の場合でも、61：18には多くの開発途上国があります。 20最も貴重な水61:22の資源と、61：25が純粋に輸出のために作物を生産しなければならない最も肥沃な土地61:28は、たとえば61:32のイチゴを輸出するような、ヨーロッパや61:30のアメリカの市場に奉仕するために捧げます。 61:38の例では、チュニジアやモロッコのような61:36の国にとって61:34の重要な食料安全保障項目ではありませんが、s 61:40のドルとユーロをもたらし、61：43の国が対外債務を支払うことを可能にする輸出61:44ええここで私たちが61:46ここに飛び込むのは私が61:48知っているからです私たちはここでほとんど時間切れです、そして私は61:50は私たちが行く前に61:52ええとステファニーに1つの質問をしたかったですそれは再びエレンヘルカーネグロン61:57からのqaからの61:54ですそのエレンに61:59という名前を付けますが、成長の果てしない追求に関する62:01の考えと、62：06の成長は62:08のすべてのステファニーに対する答えではないという考えを知っている62:04を知っています。 62:09を62:11の一種の合格または終了コメントにし、62：15はまだミュート状態にあることを確認します。46ここに飛び込むのは、私が61:48で時間切れになっていることを知っていて、61：50が行く前に61:52に1つの質問をしたかったからです。エレンヘルカーネグロン61:57そして私がそのエレンであなたの名前を61:59と発音したら失礼しますがあなたは成長の無限の追求についてのあなたの考え62:01とおそらく62:06の成長という考えを知っている62:04を知っています62:08ステファニーが62:09に、62：15がまだミュート状態にあるという、62：11の一種の合格または終了コメントにしたいすべての62:08に対する答えではありません。46ここに飛び込むのは、私が61:48で時間切れになっていることを知っていて、61：50が行く前に61:52に1つの質問をしたかったからです。エレンヘルカーネグロン61:57そして私がそのエレンであなたの名前を61:59と発音したら失礼しますがあなたは成長の無限の追求についてのあなたの考え62:01とおそらく62:06の成長という考えを知っている62:04を知っています62:08ステファニーが62:09に、62：15がまだミュート状態にあるという、62：11の一種の合格または終了コメントにしたいすべての62:08に対する答えではありません。そのエレンについては59ですが、62：01は成長の果てしない追求についての考えを知っており、62：04は、おそらく62:06の成長はステファニーが作りたいすべての62:08に対する答えではないという考えを知っています。 62:09 62:11についての一種の合格または終了のコメントで、62：15はまだミュート状態です。そのエレンについては59ですが、62：01は成長の果てしない追求についての考えを知っており、62：04は、おそらく62:06の成長はステファニーが作りたいすべての62:08に対する答えではないという考えを知っています。 62:09 62:11についての一種の合格または終了のコメントで、62：15はまだミュート状態です。
ケルトン：
62:17パンデミックの18か月後、62：19すべてのズームが62:20になります。62：22自分でミュートを解除する第2の性質を知っていますが、まだ62:25ではありません。私は非常に62:28同情的です私は質問が非常に好きです62:30私は62:33自体の成長自体が62:36経済政策の正しい目的ではないと思いますそして私は世界中の62:42の成長への執着は、私たちの62:45の債務への執着と関係があります。実際、62：57の成長は、債務とGDPの比率が63:03に上昇した場合、債務の危機への脱出ルートであるという考えです。63：07認識されている解決策は、経済を63:10成長させることです。そのため、63の分母は次のようになります。13方程式は大幅に増加し、63：16比率が縮小します。これが、63：19の多くの政府が、63：24の債務危機から逃れるために、63：22に進んでいると考えているためです。63： 27 mmtが63:29非常に重要である方法があります。63：31は63:34の国債と金融の理解をリセットし、63：37は最初に重要だと思います。まだ出てこないと思いますが、63：41の通貨を発行する63:40の政府は、63：43の国債を売却するという決定でさえ、63：43から借りる必要はありません。 49あなた自身の63:51通貨建ての債券を発行し、63：55の投資家に63:56の利子付きフォーム63:58を提供することを選択した場合、あなたの通貨は実際には63：59国債はただの利子です64:01ドル利子円64:03利子ポンド64:06あなたが64:11オファーすることを選択した債券に支払うことをいとわない金利64:06を設定することもできます64:12だから64:13理解することで、64：16を成長への執着から遠ざけることができますが、64：19は、fodoが今話しているように、64：21しばらくの間、64：24の国があります。 64:27は自国ではない通貨で深くお世話になっており、64：29は64:32への輸出を通じて収益を生み出し、経済は64:37に成長し、外国の債権者を満足させるというこの執着はそうではありません。無視するのは簡単です64:41そして私はあなたが知っている国がうまくいくのを助けるために国際社会が64:44できることは64:43あると思います64：48ええと、彼らの債務再編と64:51他の種類のこと64:53と私はおそらく64:56を行うべきだと思いますが、64：59の成功への鍵とメジャー65:01経済の成功は、65：03の実質GDP成長率を調べることであり、65：05の数値が大きいほど、65：07経済65:08がほぼ定義上、65：10ではないことは明らかです。行く方法とそれは持続可能ではありません。持続可能ではありません。持続可能ではありません。
NS：
65:14素晴らしいよく私は私たちが今65:16の時間になっていることを知っています65:18これは本当に65:21ステファニーの本を読んでいない人にとって本当に65:19の重要な議論だったと思います65を購入してください：24それを読んで、それは本当に65:27あなたが座って一生懸命考えるようになります65:30フェーデルが大使モーゼスと行っている仕事に関するスペースを見てください65:35ナルに関してそれは魅力的なケースです65 ：37これらの課題にどのように対処できるかについてのポイント65:42長期的な65:44を考えることについての全体的なポイントは私の心に近いです私の最初の本65:47はすべて長期的なものだったので常に65： 49私はその議論を支持するつもりです65:52と65:54私は65:57を引き出すつもりだったもう1つのポイントは65:58だと思いますこれはステファニーが会社の周りで言ったように正確に66:01を見るこの執着です66：03カ国がgdpの成長に取りつかれている66:06民間部門でも同じことがわかります66:08売上高の成長を追求している企業66:10収益性があるかどうかを無視して、66：12だけでどれだけの資本がそれに関連付けられているか66:14 66:17の企業が66:20の収益と66:22の資本に対するひどい利益のように見える何かを追いかけることができるのはおかしいようですが、私たちは常にそれを見ており、66：24それはただ異常でありそこに66 ：26明らかに良い方法なので、ステファニー66:29アンバサダーの仲間に感謝します66:31モーゼス素晴らしい議論でした66:33もう一度見たいと思っているすべての人に66:35の記録があります66： 37そして私たちの次のエピソード66:39に気をつけてください。これは数週間後には66:42というタイトルの警官26のプレビューがあります。45人の警官と強盗、そして66:47の翌週、66：49の世界を救うために60分があります。これは、66：52全員が短時間で行動を起こす方法を検討しています66:55毎週66： 56本当に私たちの政治的代表者によるその67:00の行動によって実際的な変化を推進するために67:02そして実際に私たち自身ができること67:04そしてこれは67でそれを行う方法の実際のライブ67:06デモンストレーションをするでしょう：08エピソードの途中で67:09の楽しみが少し増えましたので、ご参加いただきありがとうございます。67：12またお会いできることを楽しみにしております。02そして実際に私たちが自分たちでできること67:04そしてこれはエピソードの67:08の途中でそれを行う方法の実際のライブ67:06デモンストレーションを少し余分な67:09の楽しみのために持っているのでありがとうご参加いただきありがとうございます。67：12またお会いできることを楽しみにしております。02そして実際に私たちが自分たちでできること67:04そしてこれはエピソードの67:08の途中でそれを行う方法の実際のライブ67:06デモンストレーションを少し余分な67:09の楽しみのために持っているのでありがとうご参加いただきありがとうございます。67：12またお会いできることを楽しみにしております。
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