2023/01/31 Where Do We Go From Here? A Conversation with Stephanie Kelton | MMT Con...
well thank you so much for joining us Dr Carlton and Rowan here for the fourth annual modern monetary conference we've had a number of great events over the last eight weeks as Grace said in the chat we'll be posting all of the previous conference videos to YouTube after we're done here so if you missed any you can go back and catch those great conversations so to intro um I'm sure everyone is a familiar with our presenters today but uh Stephanie Kelton is a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University she's a regular commentator on National radio and broadcast television and she consults with policy makers investment Banks and portfolio managers across the globe her research expertise is in Federal Reserve operations fiscal policy Social Security international finance and employment policy and Ron Gray is a professor of law at Willamette University so with that I think I'll turn it over to Rowan to get the conversation started great well thank you very much and once again just a huge shout out to all of the organizers to Hannah and Ashley Grace everyone on the team uh this online uh conference has taken place over eight weeks with over 15 different events and it's been incredible to watch um it all come together so smoothly all the videos will be up afterwards and and what a perfect way to kick off to conclude the conference with uh you know from Dr Kelton our this discussion that we're having to to sort of break it up a little bit so I'll have a number of questions as we go along uh feel free to put your questions in the chat and we'll either get to them at the end or I'll incorporate some of them as we uh go along but I'll kick us off and you know this is uh titled mmt where do we go from here so I'll kick off with the question sort of more specifically you Stephanie um there's been a lot of mini arcs in the growth of mmt often overlapping arcs in different ways one of these asks that tells a particular story is your journey from 2015 into today but beginning when you started serving on the Senate budget committee through the Bernie's 2016 and 2020 campaigns through the Biden transition the publication of your book the deficit myth through the covert response and and the influence that you had on the uh the legislative process and now sort of this writing that you're doing in the inflationary era we find ourselves in and each step the audience reach you know public stature that you have that mmt has grown significantly uh and has the sort of legitimacy and centrality of mmt to the public discourse you know once upon a time we got one New York Times article a year was a big deal now there's half a dozen before before uh May um so can you talk a little bit about what some of you what you consider to be the the key pivotal moments in in that particular part of the mmt journey or that particular Arc sort of how they came about how you responded any lessons that you took from others because it seems to be a pretty important one in the larger history well okay sure gosh that's a that's a pretty um sweeping Arc that you've um laid out there Rowan and so first let me just start by saying thank you to you and to the organizers I wish and I'm so glad that there is you know a record of all of the past conversations and presentations that have been part of the fourth annual mmt conference I wish that we were all doing this together in person the way that we did the first few um and I hope that that will happen again before long uh but I know that you know even virtual events are a pretty big undertaking it takes a lot of people to pull off something like this and those working behind the scenes and um you know volunteering their time and and to everyone who's made themselves available to be part of this I'm grateful because I can go back and listen and watch and catch myself up on you know uh what you all have have put together thus far and I'm just glad to be able to join you here at the very tail end so um gosh you're right that a lot has happened and in a lot of ways it you're I think you're right to sort of start with that phone call that I got from Senator Sanders back in gosh 2014 I think it was a couple of weeks before Christmas and you know out of the blue the phone rang one day and it started a conversation that ultimately led to me taking a leave of absence from the University and moving away from my family and friends uh in the Midwest and going out to Washington DC to take the job as the chief Economist for the Democrats on the U.S Senate budget committee and uh you know that was definitely one of those moments where when it became public that that this was happening and I can remember the Articles you know in the Washington examiner and the Kansas City are like there were just a lot of articles Sanders hires deficit owl like you know sort of headlines like that and people definitely took notice and I think it um it was unsettling for a lot of people because they thought uh oh here comes mmt to Washington DC potentially to the halls of power where you know a new way of thinking about some very big and important questions about public money the way it works the limitations on government spending and all the rest of it um might well make their way into a place like the U.S Senate where they could be a I'll say a disruptive Force for good where you know lawmakers could if they were willing to engage uh they they could begin to see the world very differently and uh and I I certainly hoped that that would be you know what happened as a as a result of me taking a sort of leap of faith in um making the decision to go there and and to do that and I will say that you know those early conversations with Senator Sanders while he never mentioned a presidential run there was enough out there you know you could read about uh that maybe that might be in the cards and so I saw that as uh as an opportunity maybe to be part of something really exciting and so uh I know there are lots of people over the years who have sort of lamented uh I guess the lack of progress that um was made in terms of you know getting him in particular to do kind of a more full-throated Embrace of mmt I don't think that I I don't think I ever had that in mind that you know he would wrap his arms around this completely different way of thinking and embark on a presidential run it was never realistic um but what I do think is that over the years what we've seen and and it has taken a lot of time and it maybe it sort of started with that 2015 decision but we've all seen I think the the shift in thinking and you mentioned covid and of course there were um some early remarks from congresswoman ocasio-cortez and even before she was elected you know I sat down with her I think pavlina sat down with her she and I did a Facebook live event and we were talking about student debt cancellation and lo and behold you know here we are today uh with you know maybe this Administration moving toward doing at least something on that front so I can't remember every part of your question because uh the ark is is so sweeping but you know there there just have been so many moments the moment with Congressman um John Yarmouth the chairman of the house budget committee I think a lot of people probably who are joining today know that he I think went further than anyone in Congress ever has in terms of very openly embracing the ideas of mmt and I and I mean he gets it he didn't just sort of understand what it's about he really took the time to read and to get very conversant to the point uh of being able to go on television and just hold court for 30 minutes and introduce viewers to mmt in a in a very compelling and sophisticated way so there's a lot of progress yet to be made but we've certainly made some good Headway yeah thanks and I think one thing just to follow up on that is you know the way that you tell that story in those different moments and thank you for mentioning the ocasio-cortez meeting because I think that's also another pivotal moment is that there are often situations where what you're doing is not you know in the job description of an economist academic who writes articles and teaches classes there's there's something going beyond that and if you look at the mmt kind of trajectory going back to those early conferences with Warren Mosler or even you know the sort of Minsky students in their 80s with Randy and and others um on one hand uh it was good to have you know financial support but there are plenty of groups of Scholars that have had financial support on one hand it's good to have had a Blog early on but there are plenty of groups that have had blogs and on one hand it's good to you know have some very important insights that the Orthodoxy hasn't hasn't covered but there's plenty of heterodox economists that have those kinds of insights um so I guess you know just to think about that story that you're just talking about in the broader trajectory the 2025 year trajectory of mmt what are the you know are there any ingredients any things you think particularly that that made mmt more successful than than their breath when you know when it comes to heterodox econ or just you know trying to have an influence in the public policy debate you know you teach public policy now your your influence is larger than just one sort of disciplinary stature on that front I'm just curious if there are any things that you think of that we do things differently and that's why we can sort of explain part of this trajectory like the secret sauce of how yeah why is it that we somehow managed to get this moment this time I don't I don't know like why did we break through in a way that as you just laid out others who had you know a commitment to to writing or some financial support or whatever it was um what what was it I I don't I don't know I do think that saying something that captivates people because it is so different from what they have heard all of their lives and having this sort of you know Motley Crew of sorts right we didn't come from the IVs and um we sort of banded together and Amplified one another's voices there was so much support from within that Core group that early you know on with Bill Mitchell writing in Australia and with us launching the blog uh in the U.S and kind of amplifying I know you know we would routinely amplify his work and um and I think that I've said this before I think that it was really the financial journalists who took the early interest in our work and for whatever reason a handful of them willing to to read what we were writing to take it seriously and um and wrestle with their own understanding of how things work and be open to the possibility that maybe they didn't have it all right you know in their own in their own heads and then they started to give us a little bit of a fair hearing and to reference our work and so but I guess the question is why didn't that happen for other groups Why didn't it happen for let's say other members of the post-means community who yeah there was there was a con there was an event we had with Scott full Iowa one of our early modern Money Network events with Dean Baker and he said you know I agree with 98 of what you're all saying he said it just sounds like Keynes to me but I'm not sure if we'll ever get you know everyone to read their canes he's and there was something about you know maybe we'll never win that big thing so I'll just do this other stuff in the meantime and it seems like something about mmt refusing to lose sight of the big win or something at least to me that seems to be a relevant part yeah and when I say that excites people that's kind of what I I guess I was trying to get at is that there is an appetite for something that goes beyond the sort of you know at the margins criticizing and critiquing the system more uh you know we we could have finding a little win today that just happened to come up and play the next whack-a-mole tomorrow yeah and I think then here Along Comes this group that tells us we can actually think much bigger and much more boldly and kind of the shackles come off and you're you're liberated in ways that you know playing in the in the sandbox of the usual Keynesian like framework doesn't allow you to get super excited about what the future could look like the possibilities and and and challenging you know people I think they they have this sense that whether they agree with us or not they have the sense that you know we're being very honest with them and we're kind of sticking our necks out we certainly understood that in the early days my old colleague um uh Bill black used to say used to refer to them as career limiting gestures you know when you do something knowing that it's going to limit your career possibilities going forward because you say things about the Federal Reserve and the capacity of monetary policy or you critique things that you know uh economists and faculty normally would not say these things and we you know were willing to to sort of say things that I think a lot of others aren't and to be more blunt and more honest and and I think people respond well to that so I want to sort of flip the question and you know obviously there's a lot to be be successful there's a lot of sort of reflections of big gambles that paid off that I think others have things to learn from but obviously we're in our own iterative learning process are there any moments that really stick out to you both in your journey in the broad mmt Journey that you know as you look back with the 2020 benefit of hindsight that could have made a really kind of big big difference a positive difference if they'd gone differently you know things that we could have actually changed or things that could have what are the sort of regrettable forks in the road any that come to mind obviously don't have to sort of spill tea about others but just we all kind of think back oftenly we've done something differently here or oh that was a real missed opportunity I can tell from the question that you actually have uh something in mind here I'm curious to know what you no I I mean I have I have played in my own life I'm just curious this is I'm just curious what yours are you know what yours are about there are probably dozens or even a hundred uh such missed opportunities moments where things could have gone a little bit differently gosh everyone like I'll tell you one I remember when you called me saying that you're going to start working for burning and I was really busy at law school and if I wish if I'd just been able to sort of drop other things and know how important I would have been you know that's one for me personally but I'm just curious if there are any now that you've seen so much of the the mmt arc well I'm I'm on my head between and the sort of academic economic side I I think that one of the things that I always I think is unfortunate and and regrettable is just the sort of Visions within the academic broader post Keynesian kind of community and how it would have been so much more useful and not just post Keynesian I mean we have had issues uh over the years with other individuals and I I'm not going to say any names but you know these are people that we had good relations with for a number of years and then for whatever reason they started becoming I get kind of antagonistic and just you know I I think and I don't understand it I never have I I don't recall ever going out of my way to read something that someone in the post Keynesian Community had written and deciding this is the way I'm going to spend my time I don't agree with everything I just said so I'm gonna spend a lot of time tearing down this other person's work I just would not uh ever do that and I haven't understood why you know those relations became so strained with some people with whom we've had very had had good relations for so many years and it would have been nicer to have that Community kind of hold together and allow some you know encroachment of new different ideas and maybe not even always new but just sort of rediscovering some of what was in Keynes early on or in in a learner or from Minsky or whatever and and allowing some of that to become part of the the broader post Keynesian Community or something but for whatever reason uh it didn't happen and I think it it would we would have been much stronger together but yeah I got the Feeling sometimes that even when the criticism was never directed to them just the the critique of how things are done and how it could be done differently that mmt implied almost felt like a personal attack because they're operating in that old you know Paradigm of not asking for more not asking for bigger that it there was always some tension of sort of the ambition but um to your point this is this is a great lead into the next question many many people make the mistake of treating mmt as a sort of hedgehogy school of thought focused on only knowing you know one big thing oh m t is about deficits mmt is about printing money I mean but in reality mmt is a foxy Paradigm that is to say it knows lots of little things or at least a a foxy sort of Hedgehog Paradigm where you ask one big question you know what is money and then the answer takes you across all these different areas from ancient history to constitutional law to budget and banking to labor to to price and Market Theory you know in different rooms mmt can be all about the job guarantee or all about the green New Deal and others it's about critiquing Orthodoxy and monetary policy and all these kinds of things so I guess my question is you know are there elements or or Dimensions or components of the broader mmt Paradigm that you think have been given you know have received relatively little or inadequate attention in in the emerging public narrative about what mmt is any in particular if you could sort of wave a magic one and increase the volume and and time that they've been getting in the in the discourse that is sort of out of our control yeah that's the part that's that's tough when you say in the public discourse because so much of what I think is compelling about mmt well I don't even know if I want to say that we've always felt like one of the great strengths has been you know demonstrating that we have put forward I guess a superior understanding of monetary operations and the mechanics of how things work and that's very hard to put in front of you know a general public and and get people interested you know I think it was my first academic publication was all kind of In The Weeds on that stuff and while I think it it is important and it helps to show that we actually can articulate there's a reason why we say for example that um the funds to pay taxes and by government bonds comes from the prior Act of government spending or lending right you have to get the dollars in before you can tax them out or drain them off with uh Bond sales and that comes from understanding the mechanics but when you know for the for the lay public you could just distill That Into You Know taxes don't Finance government spending or something that's a takeaway that people can then come away and and feel empowered in a sense to say governments don't rely on taxpayer money to pay the bills in fact they don't even use that but they don't have to understand all the plumbing so it's part of the elephant that I think is in important doesn't get a ton of attention but there's a reason it doesn't it's it's complicated stuff sorry um you've written everything from you know academic books to journal articles to op-eds to doing every kind of media interview Under the Sun um how have your sort of priorities in in the output that you produce the kind of media the focus of the audiences how that how would you sort of looking back think that's evolved over the years are there any sort of huge differences in in what you spend your time sort of thinking and worrying about when you when you sort of go out there and make an impact on the world that the way that you're trying to speak what you're trying to focus on you know who's in your head do you're speaking to compared to in the past so okay when it comes to how I spend my time um you're probably know that I I can't say yes I mean I can only do a fraction of the kind of things that I'm asked to do and I always try to prioritize students so a couple of days ago I got uh an inquiry from my speaker Bureau and they said there there's a high school in Oxford that's doing an event um there's it's just a pro bono like they just want you to to speak at the event shall I politely decline I said no here should not politely decline these are the ones that we always say yes to right because the and I said and I told her this is like this is the Future these are the kids so we always I always do you know make time for a student who's working on a project and they're in high school and they're writing some senior paper and they've chosen the job guarantee or mmt or something like that can you zoom with me can I interview you can I oh so students go right to the top of the list always uh for me and then mostly you know my sifter is I'm not that interested in preaching to the choir so I don't really look for uh podcasts or media opportunities or or speaking opportunities where I'm gonna walk in to a super friendly group and lay out mmt or or whatever um I don't see a lot of um purpose a useful purpose in doing that so I like to walk into the lion's den I like to go where I think the audience is predisposed to disagree with virtually everything that I understand and and am going to argue and then put put the case forward so I've done a number of podcasts with you know Bitcoin I got an invitation we are the largest podcast on bitcoin we have more listeners anyone else okay fine I did that uh I went on with Anthony scaramucci a couple of times because I know that I'm gonna be reaching audiences who aren't already hearing this kind of stuff so I like to do that uh and and kind of just like I added like for people who may be interested in getting into sort of mmt academic work scholarship writing um who may not have the the opportunity to have 25 different you know invitations to sift between but they might not know certain audiences or ones that would be receptive or kind of not intuitively think that's a place that we could could have an impact so are there any audiences that you sort of have access to now that you find are sort of very valuable ones that you would not have thought of 15 20 years ago going into Academia that they might be the kind of people you're speaking to um what do you mean very valuable internal well just just productive groups that you think are kind of uh receptive or have an interest or an ability to kind of pick it up because of what they do for example I know you've spoken to a lot of financial planners and it seems like that's a group that cares because they actually have fiduciary responsibilities to people with their money um and I'm not sure maybe maybe you would have but I wouldn't have guessed getting into this that that was an audience that would really want to have you know an appetite to get this right I'm just curious if there are any others that come to you yeah no that's the thing about financial groups they you know it might it might not sound true but I believe that it it is they really don't care about much other than getting it right so if they think that somebody has a superior framework understanding of mechanics if if their belief is in the quantity theory of money M go up P go up you know and they're placing Financial Bets with the belief that all they have to do is look at the you know M2 and they're going to learn something important about where inflation is headed in the future or they look at the deficit and they think this is going to uh necessarily give them insight into where interest rates must move in the future and they're making you know they're taking Financial positions and then they're wrong they want to know how to not be wrong and so um I know they they may not agree that uh a job guarantee is a a useful stabilizer uh or um you know support it for so social and moral reasons or whatever but there's enough in there that audiences like that have been super receptive to mmt over the years and then there are tons of other groups that you wouldn't think maybe would have you know much of an interest in understanding you know core mmt tenants but they do like you know the the Bricklayers Union you know he speaks to a huge group of members or Auto Executives and Engineers last year I went out and did a big talk in West Virginia for you know these groups but they understand why it really does matter because you know they understand that if the policy response is weak and the economy is weak then sales are weak and their own Industries uh suffer as a consequence so whatever gets better public policy in place and a better economy with broader Prosperity people can go out and buy these cars or whatever it is they're sympathetic to different ways of thinking they're not dogmatic and part of that obviously is as you said having having something to say that's relevant to either General Prosperity or issues that particularly affect those groups I I'm curious if there's anything you know if you had 10 hungry PhD students saying give us you know topic ideas you know where are the places that we can really expand the Paradigm I add value you know flesh things out further take ideas and run with them in new contexts are there any things that come to your mind if you had a 10 clones of yourself to do research in addition to all the other things that you would be trying to to focus on obviously you've got your book coming up but after are there other areas that you could see wanting to get involved to to sort of start digging into sure 10 clones of Nathan tankus uh do you know what I mean like there there is obviously a a big need for I think more sophisticated work on price Theory and pricing um inflation management uh automatic stabilizers tax policy I mean there's there are so many areas where if I had 10 PhD students um and a and a thriving doctoral program boy there's more than enough ways for people to contribute to the um you know broader scholarly project around mmt your work I mean let's be you know I will be honest it took me a little while I knew that you were right but I didn't really know why you were right early on because it was years early and you were into this you know digital currency and I kept saying temperature oh don't isn't the dollar digital like I it took me a little while to understand what you were doing with your own research and it's I don't know if you want to say it's mmt it's mmt adjacent yeah as much as mmt will claim it yeah I consider it in the tradition I definitely will it I think that fills a huge void and you know because if it's about the monetary system that the monetary system isn't just this narrow public money reserves and currency sort of right I mean that's and I understand now how could you how could you have missed that when it's the thing that um policymakers the world over are so focused on right now is clearly important and you have you know what years of scholarship in this area already so I think that that's not going away that's another huge area um monetary policy I don't think monetary policy five years from now is going to look anything like what we have today yeah it's it's you can feel the you can feel it in flux um and and you know to to your credit internment he's credit one of the things that really I appreciated from an early eight days was that it is evolutionary there is this sort of integrating of new components adding uh deepening parts of the Paradigm and also looking at what's going on in the world and trying to stay relevant to those issues so I remember when we were talking about setting up the first mmt conference lineup and you're saying do you have any ideas for Keynotes and I said this guy Brett Scott has been doing this amazing work around you know the war on cash and you said oh I was on a paddle with him absolutely let's do it so even if you hadn't understood it we were already leaning in and that was 2016 to the fights that are now becoming Central because I think part of the skill is always sort of having having your nose to the grindstone or to the to the street and seeing what's coming around the corner um but on that front you know one of the notable things I think that's accompanied the growth in in popularity of mmt has been watching the different sort of layers or faces of MNT gain salience in different contexts and across different audiences right for some people it's sort of found a reception amongst the organizing left for some it's the political and the media Elite you know the financial journalists the elected officials and and in many places it's all across the academy different disciplines law Humanities accounting finance and that's before you get to the business community and and all of that kind of thing um but if you ask about each of them they might they might not think that mmt is more affiliated with with those other groups than their own you know well mmt is a kind of they're one of us they're leftists or they're one of us they're Financial experts or something uh and and it gets a little bit disassociative to have these different identities in different rooms that probably can't ever be fully reconciled so I guess I was just curious if you know you've got any sort of insights or Reflections on how you've navigated being so many different things to different people and and how that tension sort of plays out in your own you know professional Identity or professional action I mean look I I think I'm a pretty open book I um I was Bernie Sanders Chief Economist there you know uh I I hard to hide from it right I wear that very proudly I am a progressive I um I think that anybody who invites me to speak at an event has that in the bio in the introduction there's no uh effort on my part to try to duck that I'm proud of it I'm proud of the work that I did I'm proud of him um and so you know I I go in and maybe you know of course you you go in to speak in front of an audience and you make emphasize different things in front of different audiences um but you don't I don't I don't try to hide anything I don't pull any punches I am there you know the funny thing is I I mentioned the bricklayers and I mentioned West Virginia I went I flew from Chicago to West Virginia and I gave exactly the same set of remarks I'd change a word uh I mean you know like same slides and whatever comes out of my mouth but it's basically it was the same talk because they were back to back and here is one right a union group and I go in and I do my thing in front of the Union group and then two or three days later I'm in front of Auto Executives and I mean CEOs CFOs um you know Engineers that that was a very different audience I gave exactly the same talk and I got the same reception in both places just overwhelmingly positive uh response from from audiences so uh do you get any shock of people people thinking I didn't expect to agree so much with a birdie person or you know I didn't expect to find this so insightful I'm just curious because to me often those those are spaces where you would think that people would immediately discount one other one so it's less I was trying to imply that you were being kind of duplicitous more just these are spaces where people are not expecting to find any cross-pollination and it happens all the time so you know I was telling Paul my husband who popped his head in a few minutes ago um when I was in Brussels last month I'm sitting in front of this you know huge audience and we did like a little fireside chat so it's sort of like what we're doing you know where I just got questions from uh top financial analyst uh major financial institution and he's asking these questions and I'm answering and answering and he you know it was clear that he started off with the impression that mmt was this and then when he got the answers from me he was learning that he didn't have a very good understanding of what mmt was really about and so I'm giving him responses and at one point he said huh well if that's mmt then I I think I'm in agreement and I responded by saying that's because it's very sensible and then the audience laughed and it was just kind of a light moment where uh to your point do people find that they didn't think they were going to end up in agreement and lo and behold there's there's a whole lot more there that they find not just acceptable but it almost becomes how could we not be thinking along these lines you know why would we not do these things so yeah it happens all the time I mean and it seems to me one of the interesting things about this is there are often contexts where to be effective as a as a leftist or to be effectively left economic theory the assumption is that there's only certain audiences that are worth speaking to but what it seems to me is that part of the strength is by getting if not complete buy-in you know grudging respect or validation from the financial journalist Community from you know practitioners Etc it's allowed mmt to have a legitimacy that you know storming the barricades with the marxian flag alone would not have ever you know gotten to this many people gotten into this many spaces so I'm I'm just curious when you sort of think about the the political goals or the goals of actually making the world a better place and sort of the way an intellectual Paradigm cuts across different organizing strategies or tactics and things you know is there any sense in which you you have to sort of balance or think about you know I'm doing this for a reason I'm getting up every day to make the world better that's why I'm doing this and then this is going to take me pretty far out into these spaces to do this but there's it all comes back it all has a reason you know um is there any kind of way that you you approach that or the others that you know if you had any advice for people trying to navigate that tension because I can say from my personal experience the stuff that I'm doing right now for example with digital cash is forcing me to get into rooms with a lot of companies who are making the technology because if we don't have the technology in existence the public policy can't say we should adopt it and I thought I'd never be the kind of person to be working with with companies and Industry and products but that's where the work has taken me and that's what needs to happen to to have this policy influence and you know not not to say that there's Shades of Gray there but just that there's a it's hard to explain all of those steps to people on the outside other than just to sort of follow what you're doing so I'm just curious if there's anything any thoughts or Reflections or you might have on that kind of dynamic I just think you're happy to be willing to say yes a lot uh and to a lot of things that you might not see the value in or the the way that you know it's going to position for the next part of the puzzle piece to to fit um but like you saying yes to some of these things you understand that with the end goal being where it is you're going to have to pass through some of these other um go through some of these other motions to get to the ultimate uh end point so uh I think you know I I guess I just try to do that as much as possible you know I say yes to groups not thinking how is this yes going to help me you know but it's just sometimes you don't see a clear benefit to everything but just you try to say yes in in not the usual way that's the thing I think that a lot of academics and I understand that they're not comfortable because I try to say I can't do this interview but you should call so and so or I can give you three names or something some people don't want to do press they're not comfortable talking to journalists they don't want to be on TV or radio and um and I understand that but it uh those are the kinds of things that just help that forward momentum that keep you moving forward meet with groups take time out when somebody reaches out and says I'm interested in the work that you do but I don't understand this little part of it if you can respond with an email and something you know just it's over what it can be overwhelming and it's exhausting and I understand you know we can't we can't all just be 24 7 pushing forward but I think saying yes to as much as possible I mean that was something that I noticed very early on was that this of all the groups of Scholars I would always get emails back directly it would always be yes how can I help there was a sense in which you know it movement building begins with that kind of one-on-one support but I guess at the same time you know there are only so many hours in the day and I guess part of you know prioritization is also saying no we're moving on so I guess one question I had about that is are there any issues or intellectual arguments that you think mmt is sort of ready to declare Victory on or can can turn the page on or maybe can you know doesn't need to devote as much advocacy effort towards as a as a priority versus others are there things that you would sort of rebalance our Focus towards now at this stage in the game that might be different from earlier stages well I think it has to be inflation right I mean Warren Mosler used to always say um and this goes back 20 some years you know Warren would say once you get them arguing about inflation you've already won that was kind of his line and he would say that because we weren't at the stage where we were arguing about whether something was going to be inflationary or not we were back in the stage where we were arguing about the impact on the deficit or the dead and the sustainability and tipping points or Ratio or you know running out of money turning into Greece all those sort of things and now I mean you're hard-pressed to find even someone at AEI right who will push back on the argument that the government can't afford to do XYZ Medicare whatever so we're at the inflation is the relevant constraint and I think at least there it's it's a place I might be comfortable saying you know planting a a flag of some kind and saying you know we seem to have won that part of the debate but the inflation piece is is obviously where we are today and there isn't an easy answer to that one and and that's the next Battlefront I think and going back to one of your earlier comments you said one of the strengths of mmt was it sort of operational strengths the kind of focus on the financial operations the sophisticated technical understanding and I would say you know what I one of the things that myself and Raul Carrillo and others tried to do was bring the legal technicalities to the table and add that along with the accounting and and with the Central Banking operations and the finance but I was thinking you know with your work in the Senate and then with all of this media I'd say there's another set of layers of technical or operational competency there of how to manage media relationships or what goes on behind the you know the doors in in you know in the legislature in Congress and I just I'd be curious if if there are any other sort of technical competencies that we wouldn't think of technical in the same way as we think of accounting
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but sort of skill sets that you think you've either picked up or focused on over the years that might be not as obvious to people on the outside bit of proof very important
I'm thinking just for example you know you're taking a lot of influence from from George lakov's focus on Framing and and how that's clearly been an incredibly important part of how effective you've been in communicating but just anything else about sort of navigating those spaces and what it means to be you know kind of an operations person doing politics or doing public engagement.
K:
I mean I I think that what the Press likes is availability right knowing that there's someone out there who will respond to them and be willing to to speak to give a quote and and to be able to speak in a way that isn't you know trying to show everyone how smart you are all the time uh and and that I think you know some of that comes from a lay cough but I violate lakov's rules all the time for crying out loud I titled the first chapter of my book uh don't think of a household and you know one of his more well-known books is don't think of an elephant and he says the moment I tell you not to think of an elephant you think of an elephant so I say don't think of a household the moment I tell you not to you start thinking of a household so um I didn't exactly practice what he preaches uh all the time and I you know tackle the deficit and all the myths so I'm reinforcing in some ways just by putting the myths out there but for the purpose of obviously busting them um look I if I've had I won't say if I guess I've had some success the success that I've had I think a lot of it is just down to style of communication being willing to challenge yourself to write for a broad audience and not just aim at your fellow academics and the sort of peer-reviewed Journal sort of space but um it's much harder to do that to to write for a broader audience and at least it is for me it's it's a it's a real challenge but I just felt like from the earliest days you know launching that blog back in 2009 that was the goal I mean we had the financial crisis and the economic meltdown and it just there was such a sense of urgency in me to get our voices and it was a collective effort it was Matt forstatter it was Bill black it was Randy Ray and I mean these were my colleagues back at the University of Missouri in Kansas City and I just went to people and said if I start this blog will you all contribute and and write and and we can really you know try to influence and help shape the policy response right we can engage in the debates and we can try to have an impact here in our own way but everyone understood that you have to write in a readable way and um at the same time you know demonstrate that you're sophisticated and compelling but you know that's when the media started to pick it up and and then that helped.
R:
so I want to follow up on another part of that in a second but in the meantime uh nmt I think one of its early strategic successes was going through the internet and bypassing the traditional Gatekeepers and particularly the economics discipline where there's sort of five journals that if you don't publish you don't get to make it and they are extremely ideologically um exclusionary um and and today of course we've got people writing not just op-eds and books and doing television documentaries and things but doing educational videos podcasts tick tocks Etc are there any particular forms of kind of media engagement public engagement that you're more excited about most excited about the upcoming years that you've found of kind of worked better or or have more bang for the buck that you you're you're interested in getting a more or hoping to see more of I mean look I think that I'm getting old and I don't know what Instagram is really and I don't know how to use it and I had someone actually ask me earlier today uh they were trying to set up Instagram and figure out how to post videos or something I said I have absolutely no idea but I'm sure my 15 year old daughter could hook you up like she would know all of that stuff and almost all of my faith right now is in young people I mean that whatever communication platforms they are most reliant on to get their news to share information to communicate with one another then I'm really enthusiastic about that um because I think you know people older than I am have let down generations of Americans and not just Americans but the world over um so I I don't know I whatever is useful those tick tocks that I've seen that are done by you know some who are supportive mmt hilarious funny um they teach something I don't know how to do that I'm old I it's awesome and if it's Instagram or or snap or whatever I don't know these platforms I I know Twitter and and I and that's all and so you know but but I love to see the energy I love the creativity I used to say years ago and maybe you remember this I used to say I wish I had kind of you know uh some money to work with because I really wanted to do a library of resources and what I imagined were a series of short videos you know seven minute five to seven minute kind of explainers and let's just build this Library out I I would have loved to have done that but scripting and record you know how do you I don't know how to I don't have those talents to edit video and all that kind of stuff but I still think that is an area where um a lot that's very shareable content and you know somebody with a bit of time and and some Talent could work with some mmt Scholars and try to get these little bite size kind of explainers and and others I think are doing things um Stephen Hale's got a new project out uh with Phil Long and others over in Australia um I I think Bill Mitchell's done something with an mmt kind of teaching tool so people are trying a lot of different things Dr Hannah Judson and Jessica now yeah yeah and Anna um and I guess on the other side of the spectrum thinking about young people um uh you know one of the things that I I liked about Senator Warren talking about Personnel is policies when I think about the legal World there are a lot of issues that to really be successful on it's not just a matter of changing one policy it's actually a matter of having people that understand the way that we do things in the right positions whether that's you know regulatory agencies or Stafford you know offices in Congress or you know entities like the CBO which you got to see up close and came away with a number of thoughts about how to reform so are there any thoughts or suggestions or advice that you can give to younger people who might be interested in trying to to walk the walk through the halls of power as a way of kind of enacting or helping push you know mmt ideas into the policy space obviously you you were around the senator you've seen how they built those teams and things yeah I mean um you know there are in Washington DC and it it's very clear that um proximity seems to matter a lot right when you have whether it's cap or um the center for American progress or Washington Center for Equitable growth or Epi you know when you've got staff on the ground and you're spinning out research papers on the minimum wage or whatever it is and you can run somebody up to the hill and you know share the latest research findings with staffers who then go to their bosses and next thing you know you know somebody's helping draft legislation and you know this because you've done a fair bit of this by now um but but the Senate is a weird place and and the house too but the Senate especially I think and you know I remember one Senator saying to me you know the this is like this place is run by 21 year olds kind of thing uh and it's true you know young people have an incredible amount of influence with their members and if you can become a staffer or become you know someone with whom staffers can reach out and um you know get input advice on proposed legislation or something like they've done with you uh that's great it's just an expensive place to live a lot of internships used to be unpaid I think that's changed and and changing but it's not a cheap thing to do to take a a position as an intern try to work your way up um but they like to bring people out of some of these think tanks and um that kind of is a bit of a revolving door um for some and they'll do it from Cato or Heritage or AEI or whatever on the other side as well so policy research Think Tank places a good possible way to both get involved in the drafting of legislation working with staffers becoming a staffer and then you know you're not coming through that I think it's a lot of it is just who do you know when a position opens up you know the staffers who are already on the inside um putting forward a name for a vacant spot and one question building on that and you know this is a question with an easy answer so I'm not trying to sort of play any country games but every intellectual movement has to answer this question of how its members and leaders will eat and pay the bills while they they do the work that needs to be so for mmt like a lot of others that has obviously involved the combination of external support from from non-academics but including you know in the early days to an extent Warren mosleb and also traditional academic appointments grants those kinds of things uh and at least in mind limited exposure relative to other movements and certainly other organizations who are in the same space as we are mmt has been pretty remarkably underfunded certainly lacks any sort of central Financial Puppet Master behind this scenes in the decade that I've been involved um but it it seems to me that this is a thing that comes up both with with sort of critic haters wanting to portray this is all in the pocket of of you know Warren's Banker money or on the other side just the challenge that we face as a movement building pipelines of support if we lose access to one University's PhD program or one Masters program it's very hard to keep the intellectual pipeline going um do you see any you know what what are the kind of biggest hurdles pitfalls things that you know challenges that you see for the mmt community trying to to grow and navigate that terrain of needing to sort of be able to to eat but on the other hand each one of the ways in which you do that coming with its own strings and with its own challenges and pitfalls I mean in terms of Rec you have to be able to recreate right so that take UMKC or any PhD program but in in our case with mmt there aren't a lot of departments where someone can go and get training that will culminate in a PhD where you've got sort of a solid uh mmt background right so um Warren tried to do that and I think you know in a number of different ways there was support for the PHD program at the new school for many years there was support at Cambridge University uh when Phil barestas uh had a program kind of going there and I won't even know there's support in I think Switzerland and and for Bill Mitchell when he was at uh Newcastle and at UMKC and I think Warren was really generous and I I think he was also um at least early on also trying to you know maybe find people at places like Harvard and out where they don't need any money but you know he was trying to create some connections and and so um did it help us yes of course it helped it helped to bring attract faculty because you got a cluster higher with Matt forshatter and Randy Ray pavlina came started the graduate program I came initially on a one-year appointment that then turned into a permanent position there and then we were able to build something that at its height was just incredible um you know students from all over the world came we had the largest PhD program I think at UMKC uh we had a huge Masters program um Levy is now you know uh has introduced a master's program and maybe they will get to the point before long where there's also a PhD there that's not something that Warren is funding but it does take money and that is the reality and especially in a public university like the University of Missouri in Kansas City we were cash poor always uh there was no way that a university like that was going to have the you know Financial wherewithal to bring in you know full Professor like Randy Ray and and make these hires and build out this program and provide tuition waivers and and stipends and and that's what you need to support a PhD program you got to have money you have to be able to attract students and we wanted the very best that we could get and we got them and now you have pavlina and foddle and yava and drifka and Eric to Moines and Yan Lang and so so many others so um I I would never apologize for you know having someone like Warren um come in and say and he was very hands off you know that's what a lot of donors will do it's not like Florida State Koch brothers come in and say I'm giving you money but these you must do these things and there are lots of strings attached um Warren wanted us to to you know build something and he was obviously interested in the center for Full Employment and price stability those were broad goals heck those are the Federal Reserves Goals full employment price stability so um I don't know if that spoke enough to where what you were trying to get at there but no no I think that was very helpful I think you know from my perspective also what you were saying about Warren being hands off you know there really is a difference between sort of hands-off support from people that share common interests and this idea of kind of a donor-driven framework I've seen other groups where you say the wrong thing and you get kicked out and your donor money gets pulled you know for people very close to us have been kicked out of you know the Roosevelt Institute and things for not towing a party line or the Washington Center for Equitable growth or um and then groups like ined and things are are fully kind of pushing influence through the the weight of the money that they have and at least from my perspective the the mmt community does does not have a does not have a disciplining Rod driven by the money but somehow is sort of managed to have a very outsized influence and I think one of the ways that that's happened is through a lot of very creative and careful material production I often say to others it really annoys me that of all the groups out there that make their materials very easily accessible the Austrian School that loves to talk about scarcity and that there's no such thing as a free lunch goes out of their way to make all of their materials available to everybody because that's what you do when you kind of proselytize and in the early days of mmt it was sort of possible perhaps to have a single repository of all the scholarship of all of the Articles out there or something you know approximating a pretty big chunk but as it keeps growing and becoming more diffuse I get the worry that there's a lot of people out there spreading you know mischaracterizations of mmt and then there's a lot of siled aspects of mmt scholarship that that isn't coming together do you do you sort of see any particular possibilities challenges are there things that you've thought about on that front how we how we keep a coherence to what mmt is in the face of it growing of a larger on one hand but also ever more people deciding they can talk about what it is and and what what it means to have some sort of you know Integrity to the boundary of the body of work no I think it's too big I think I think it's too big and I don't really want to try to think about electing you know Gatekeepers people I've heard proposals over the years of trying to come up with a way to certify this is mmt certified someone has read what this mmt adjacent person is doing or has written there's some chance that someone will read that and think oh that's part of mmt but if it's not sanctioned from on high and someone hasn't signed off on it then it can't be welcomed into the sort of broader mmt scholarship I just don't think we can and I don't think we would want to I don't want to try to police what others are doing in a way that says yes you're in no you're out you know it's too big it's it's too big at this point you've got lots of people who've never had a college course from anybody you know who has contributed to the scholarship or could be considered an mmt scholar or or whatever but they're out there writing all kinds of stuff and maybe they're calling it mmt and who's you know what are we supposed to do go out and chase after everybody who's who's out there I just it's it's gotten too big I don't think we can do that uh is it a problem yes because someone will read and it happens to me all the time and I know it happens to you someone will quote back something and say well this is M and tears want this or mmt says this they're quoting someone I've never heard of before but I don't know how to I don't think there's a way to stop that from happening unless you've thought of something I haven't thought of no I haven't and you know I think about ways in which we can as much as possible people who do share common values and things to speak with one voice in ways you know putting multiple names on on documents and things but I think you're right you know the alternative of kind of a casserole approach or a or a kind of authoritarian boundary has its own problems that may actually outweigh whatever the problem you're trying to to fix there is and and certainly one of the ways that I've tried to deal with this and maybe you know curious if you have any thoughts about that is we often talk about what is mmt well on one hand it's a set of principles on the other hand it's a sort of lens or a framework that you can then apply to other issues um and I also say I think on another level it's a group of people it's a sociological thing it's a it's a practicing Community just like the law is in one sense what lawyers do or what people who are involved in the law do and um I think that's the the part where to me that that difficult question of what are the boundaries of the ideas bleeds into what is the community we're trying to build you know who who is welcome in that Community what are the spaces that that we want to make people feel like you know this this kind of behavior is not acceptable not not because it's intellectually problematic or maybe it may be but but because we're getting up every day choosing who we want to work with and it matters you know to choose people who aren't trying to do things that we don't agree with um so I guess maybe another kind of follow-on to that is do you do you see kind of ways in which the mmt community can have a set of values as well as ideas that we can commit to is there a sense not not political in a partisan sense but in a valued sense way in which you identify you know who you work with or what you're trying to do obviously I assume you wouldn't be going to Bernie Sanders if you're a trump supporter or if you kind of you know don't that kind of thing but are there other are there other ways in which you see this community having a coherence in its values on one level yes I but on another level no it's too big now Rowan it's so it's so big and even within the broader mmt even even within I should say that tighter mmt Community there are um people who make decisions about how to comport themselves in other groups that I don't it puts me off I guess and I don't think it's helpful to the larger Community when you're trying to win hearts and minds and um but we share so I mean if we're Venn diagrams right we're we're overlapping 95 percent of the way but but in some important there are some important value differences in the way we treat other members of the community sometimes that so but I don't know I don't uh I don't think we can have there's no mmt code of conduct there's no mmt value statement that everybody's gonna sign on to and and we're different we have differences um I just think it's inevitable I don't know I'm maybe I'm not I'm not answering your questions no I think you are I think I appreciate the honesty and I think it's an easy question I didn't sort of expect to have an answer that would sort of satisfy it no and and for me at least you know coming from the Australian context we have political parties that have factions that have clearly defined you know antagonistic roles label left labor right and things like that and there's a sense in which you don't consider them part of your same you know shared values but there's also a sense in which there's a larger enemy in in whatever particular context and at least to me that seems to be part of this challenge is trying to work out how many lesser enemies that you would be would be needing to be on the same side within particular rooms or trying to work out which fights matter on a particular day um but thinking about yeah like there's what is so hard about letting things go when you know you're gonna see one of your you know someone in the mmt community do something say something you think they get it wrong you think they you have a choice in that moment you know to make a big public spectacle out of it or to just let it go and find something bigger to worry about in your life or to have a private word I mean I guess there are those those are the three options and I think you have to understand that you know having broad alignment and a shared commitment to trying to you know lean in to this effort is a lot and if you're not there a hundred percent and you're making mistakes five percent of the time maybe it's not worth you know making a big production out of it um but on important things values you know sometimes you have to right you do you need an intervention sometimes it's worth calling somebody out because it's it's a real problem but I think a lot of the time there's just a lot of pettiness that gets gets in the way and and at least to me there's a difference when we're talking about people who've got personal values and people where those values are actually influencing the direction of the mmt community you know I like to say we're the ones if we're the ones turning up and doing the work we're the ones who are the same weather Direction goes and to me there's certain communities certain groups that I want to make sure feel welcomed in this community and if others are not doing that then we have a difference in and direction we want to go and that that is Meaningful it is Meaningful where we choose to you know allocate our resources our time our attention and things like that but again I think your your broader point which is the term memory itself to to be boundary policing that would have a very very uh a large set of secondary implications that go beyond saying well I don't want to work with those people I don't want to be in institutions with those people but to start defining what isn't is an mmt in that sense can have a a larger um a larger kind of Castle or authoritarian limiting effect but on this question of kind of priorities there one of the things that I've experienced I've been trying to struggle with this is there was a moment at the end of or the beginning I would say of last year where we had come off the back of a fair bit of campaigning around the job guarantee you know people even not just Sanders but others in the presidential campaign were contemplating talking about it you know um Cory Booker had a version of it Jilla Brown was talking about it uh and even people like hick and Looper were coming out against it uh and then of course Biden got in and even though in many respects his team some of his members were were open to other aspects of the mmt sort of framework that that interest in the job guarantee kind of fell by the wayside and I remember during covert and I was focusing on emergency cash relief I know you were focusing on these big budget questions trying to keep the door open to to a larger spending commitment uh and and pavelina was out there saying you know we need to have a job guarantee in the middle of this and I know you were saying that as well um but it it seems like even as we've had success in some areas there's a there's a sense in which that issue has sort of fallen off or is it is in a retreat moment that it isn't getting much attention do you do you see any green shoots any light at the end of the tunnel any particular you know openings for that in in any of the work that you're doing in any of the spaces you're in is is it just a sort of sense in which the pendulum has to swing one way before it'll swing back or I mean I think and again some momentum in Australia with political parties there embracing and putting this on a a party platform um yeah the labor party just won there and they've been putting a job guarantee on all of their youth party platforms a number of State parties so there's certainly some interesting that's for sure and I think among greens because I I do think that it is it it does become more difficult in an economic environment in which the unemployment rate is hovering around three and a half percent uh to get people thinking what we need as a jobs program right we have everybody's saying look at the number of vacancies relative to the number of um people out looking for work so it's harder in this economic environment where I think it is very much still alive is in you know the climate Justice sort of movement that people who are thinking about all of the the work that needs to be done jobs things that we have to do and do quickly and do on a massive scale and to have this just transition as part of um getting you know Global action on climate uh I still hear job guarantee as part of you know uh as part of that messaging and part of that sort of platform but people like Cory Booker other members of Congress I think probably much less of a sense of urgency given the economic environment and I guess that's that's a good follow-up question is do you you were talking earlier about the fact that mmt for a long time had been orienting its intervention towards an environment of low inflation or sort of persistent under demand uh and and now we have to deal with the other side of that you know the Warren Moses we've already won kind of now we have a new problem to win um do you think there's a different set of concerns now compared to you know even a few years ago when it comes to the job guarantee advocacy as you said we're in low unemployment but we're also experiencing that kind of uh uh run up in inflation before we hit that type full employment barrier and people saying well you know we we haven't got to two percent unemployment but now we need to start calling off the economy and that question of kind of unemployment being the lever to do that or the nairu has come roaring back do you do you see a sense in which this is requires a pivot in our focus of job guarantee advocacy or is it just a matter of you know Finding different coalitional interests here is there any I don't think it requires a pivot I think that that they're I don't think that most people believe that we don't have quote tightful employment today and I don't think that two percent unemployment is what most people right uh are are aiming for when they say I want a tight labor market I think most people think that what we have at the moment is an extremely tight labor market and you know you know this that's what uh chairman Powell sees that's what the rest of the fomc sees that's what most economists probably believe that's what political pundits and others see they see number of vacancies here number Seekers here hence very tight uh labor market so I don't think it requires a pivot I think um you know we're already talking recession this is the the word of you know of the moment everybody is is it going to be this year is it going to be next year is it going to be a deep recession is it going to be somehow v-shaped is it going to be um you saw I'm sure the IMF report that came came out what a week ago where you've got the IMF saying when the next downturn happens we need to start thinking about how we are going to how we want policy makers to respond where you know the report I'm referring to right this IMF report that said we ought to do central banks ought to just be the ones sending out the checks next time you know uh and so that's again turning to this sort of I've called it like the money Cannon right you you just sort of almost indiscriminately but not quite this yeah I believe it calls it pump priming yeah yeah okay so you you want to get cash into people's hands and figure out you know who doesn't who gets left out and then you draw the line somewhere or your means test it you figure out how much to send and you send a bunch of cash um so that I think is itself an opening that keeps the job guarantee as an alternative way to you know have a response to a slowing economy an economic downturn Rising unemployment that's targeted that's counter cyclical that doesn't rely on literally an act of Congress to you know come back and provide stimulus each time that once you get the thing in place then it is there and the payments uh will become automatic and you know how this people know how this works so I think it's uh it's still something that people are are going to consider if only as an alternative to what others are putting forward and to the extent that people can sort of look at these things side by side and say one is targeted one is counter cyclical one doesn't rely on Congress the other now would be in the hands of of unelected right technocrats who are figuring out essentially how to run fiscal what amounts to fiscal policy um do the means testing without being accountable to voters to figure out who gets and who does that's I I welcome that if if we can have you know the job guarantee uh debated in that context of what what how do we want to fortify things going forward you know because the next downturn will come and what kind of policy response do we want when it happens well that's also a nice lead-in which is I thinking about the different ways to try and influence policy at that Federal level not talking about sort of activism and things but on one hand you've got legislation and I've obviously written some and seen exactly how far you can get with some of that and on the other you've got sort of executive action and there's the whole debate right now with President Biden canceling student debt and that's a that's a different set of constraints but I think one thing that comes up a lot in the mmt discourses straddling that dance between executive legit you know action and legislative legitimacy that on one hand we want to be making sure that some of this stuff is recaptured by the legislature we've sort of handed it over too much to certain technocrats who aren't acting in the right set of Interest or with the right framework and in that context maybe with monetary policy taking it back from the agency the FED has a has a positive social value but at the same time and as if you've written before and I think you know history will look at your financial times up here saying that maybe we need an independent fiscal agency is a very important moment in the mmt you know development um that there is a sense in which at the same time some of the criticisms that have come out in recent years have have been based on this crude misunderstanding that mmt wants to reduce everything to legislative action like we're going to have a vote every week in in Congress about what needs to be done for the next week or something and so you know how are there any particular places you see those those two forces that kind of when do we want to put it to an administrative agency or to an executive that can operate nimbly versus when are we trying to kind of claim back some of that decision-making uh to two more sort of discursive Democratic processes um I don't know I mean the executive office has you know fairly broad powers and I think people like Dave Deon right have um assembled something like a hundred things that the bite Administration could do through executive action executive order executive action if they chose to do so so there's a lot that um an elected president can initiate through that office and I'm not sure that I've thought very much about you know when to say well it would be better to run that through Congress obviously that's a part of the debate that's been had over student debt cancellation um but in terms of mmt and um you know elected officials being accountable to voters and saying the way that we currently try to move legislation through Congress and up to the White House is fraught with all kinds of problems and there are these barriers and the Congressional budget office and the budgeting framework that is in place that has lawmakers vetting proposed new spending for the impacts on the deficit and the debt as opposed to vetting major legislation not you know we want to do 5 billion on a youth job guarantee program or 500 million or whatever 25 million here they're not going to um mmt is not there to say you know you have to run this all through some special mmt budgeting frame but for major legislation where we can't get things done because the wheels grind to a halt because cbo's score comes back and says you know it adds too much to the deficit or the bird rule is violated or whatever the case may be that's where I want mmt making inroads in in that process and I guess last question um you know real softball because I've made so many easy questions it's just uh the title of this talk was where do we go from here so are there any kind of big picture last things you'd like to leave the broader Community students people who might be watching this video in the upcoming months you know where where would you like to see mmt go from here just anything that we haven't already talked about or just the big takeaways for you and you're kind of thinking about next steps what would the big win look like at the end of this year or in a few years time or something like that I mean for me the big win if we're going to talk about a big win a big win for me is Meaningful action on climate what what else what else is there that's bigger than that so you know maybe that we'll see ten thousand dollars of student debt canceled for uh a lot of people that's going to feel like a big win for someone who has exactly ten thousand dollars student loan debt um but the big the big win for me is it we're so far from where I would like to see us and so to the students and to you know everybody else that you just mentioned uh we have a lot of work to do and a long way to go and I know that there are people out there Andres Bernal is is kind of a tireless um you know force of nature out there working with uh candidates and I know that many of you are as well but finding people who are willing to run for office which is just one of the hardest things that a person can do the amount of work that's involved um you know running for office very very hard and he is someone that I know has been working with candidates trying to get them up to speed um mmt kind of informed uh we need to see a a much bigger Coalition of people in Congress who you know can think differently can remember what it felt like frankly in 2020 to pass the cares act or to pass the American Rescue plan act in March of 2021 I talked with some lawmakers I talked with some lawmakers who were emotional I mean absolutely emotional after passing that legislation because they understood what an incredible impact they were about to have on the lives of millions of people remember lifting 40 percent of all the kids in this country out of poverty with a single provision in that bill they now know what it feels like to be able to do something like that and I know a lot of them don't ever want to go back to what it was like in the bad old days when you thought you couldn't afford to do anything when the deficit had to be the priority and the kids and planet and everything else is secondary to concerns about you know looking after the budget and I just hope that we can you know that this bout of inflation doesn't ultimately um you know lead to the two steps back after the two steps forward because we had the wind in our backs and um and I think we just have to keep pushing well that's a great moment I think to end thank you so much for the time thank you for the friend conversation I very much appreciate us you know being able to talk about what's going on within the community in in an open way with everybody and thanks for everybody who's participated and attended the various events of this conference as Stephanie said we'll try to make sure to have it in person next time but it's been a pleasure please stay involved if you want to get further involved with the modern Money Network feel free to reach out uh otherwise see you on the other side thanks to everybody
カールトン博士とローワン博士、第 4 回年次現代通貨会議にご参加いただき、誠にありがとうございます。グレースがチャットで言ったように、過去 8 週間にわたって素晴らしいイベントがたくさんありました。前回の会議のすべてを投稿します。ここでの作業が終わったら、ビデオを YouTube にアップロードします。見逃した場合は、戻って素晴らしい会話をご覧ください。それでは、はじめに、今日のプレゼンターのことは皆さんよくご存じだと思いますが、ステファニー ケルトンは経済学と公共学の教授です。ストーニーブルック大学のポリシー国営ラジオとテレビ放送の常連コメンテーターであり、世界中の政策立案者、投資銀行、ポートフォリオマネージャーと相談しており、彼女の研究専門知識は連邦準備制度の運営、財政政策、社会保障、国際金融と雇用政策であり、ロン・グレイはウィラメット大学の法学部教授です。大学ですので、会話を始めるためにローワンに引き渡したいと思います。ありがとうございました。そしてもう一度、ハンナとアシュリー・グレース、チームの皆さん、オンラインで主催者全員に大きな声援を送ります。ええと、カンファレンスは 8 週間にわたって 15 以上の異なるイベントとともに開催されました。えー、すべてがとてもスムーズにまとまっていくのを見るのは信じられないほどでした。後ですべてのビデオがアップされます。そして、ケルトン博士からこの議論を整理する必要があることを知っているでしょう、とカンファレンスを締めくくる完璧なキックオフの方法です。少し細分化して進めていく中で、いくつか質問をさせていただきます。お気軽にチャットに質問を書き込んでください。最後にお答えするか、いくつかの質問を次のような形で組み入れます。一緒に行きますが、キックオフします。これはタイトルが「mmt ここからどこに行くのですか？」というタイトルですので、より具体的に質問から始めます、ステファニー、ええと」mmt の成長には多くの小さな弧があり、さまざまな方法で弧が重なっていることがよくあります。これらの質問の 1 つは、特定のストーリーを伝えるものです。2015 年から今日に至るまでのあなたの歩みですが、上院予算委員会の委員を務め始めたときから始まり、バーニー党の 2016 年とバイデンを通じての2020年の選挙運動は、あなたの本の出版を秘密裏の対応を通じて赤字神話に変え、そしてあなたが立法プロセスに与えた影響、そして今私たちがいるインフレ時代にあなたが行っているこのような執筆のようなものです。聴衆が一歩一歩進むごとに、MMT が大幅に成長し、MMT が公共の議論に対して正当性と中心性を持っていることがわかります。昔々、ニューヨーク タイムズに 1 年に 1 つの記事が掲載されました。もう大事なことだよ』6 分前、えっと、5 月 うーん、それでは、MMT の旅の特定の部分やアークの特定の部分において、重要な極めて重要な瞬間だと考えていることについて、どのようにして生まれたのかについて少し話してもらえますか他の人から学んだ教訓にどう答えましたか、それは大きな歴史の中でかなり重要なことのようですから、まあまあ、それは確かに、あなたがそこに配置したかなり広大な弧ですね、ローワン、それではまず私に聞かせてくださいまずはあなたと主催者に感謝の意を表したいと思います。」第 4 回年次 mmt 会議の一部であった過去の会話やプレゼンテーションの記録がすべて残っていることをとてもうれしく思います。最初の数回のように、私たち全員が直接一緒にこれを行うことができればよかったのにと思います近いうちにまたそうなることを願っています えー、でも、バーチャル イベントですらかなり大がかりな仕事だということはわかっていますが、このようなことをやり遂げるには、たくさんの人が必要ですし、舞台裏で働いている人たちや、ボランティアで時間を割いてくれる人たちもいるのはわかっていますが、これに参加するために参加してくれたすべての人に感謝しています。戻って聞いて、見て、あなたのことを知ることができるからです。ええと、あなたたちがこれまでにまとめてきたものは知っています、そして私はそれができて本当にうれしいです最後尾でご一緒させていただきますので、まあまあですよ」そうですね、たくさんのことが起こったし、多くの点であなたは正しいと思います 2014年にサンダース上院議員からもらった電話から始めるのは正しいと思います 数週間前だったと思いますクリスマス、ご存知の通り、ある日突然電話が鳴り、それがきっかけで会話が始まり、最終的には大学を休学し、家族や友人から離れ、中西部のワシントン DC へ出かけることになりました。米国の民主党の首席エコノミストの職に就く。上院予算委員会で、ああ、これは間違いなく、これが起こっていることが公になった瞬間の一つでした。ワシントン審査官とカンザスシティでの記事は、ただたくさんの記事があったようなものだったことを覚えています。サンダース氏が赤字のフクロウを雇用したのはご存知のような見出しで、人々は間違いなく注目しましたが、多くの人が不安だったと思います。公的資金、その仕組み、政府支出の制限、その他すべてに関する非常に大きく重要な問題についての新しい考え方が、米国上院のような場所に進出して、私が意見を述べられる可能性は十分にあります。永久に破壊的な勢力とでも言おうか、議員たちが関与する意欲があれば、彼らは世界を全く違った見方で見ることができるだろう、そして私は確かにそれを望んでいたが、私のせいで何が起こったのか知っておいてください。サンダース上院議員との初期の会話はご存知でしょうが、サンダース上院議員は大統領選については一度も言及しませんでしたが、そこには十分な情報があったのです。ええと、もしかしたらそれがカードにあるかもしれないということについて、私はそれを、もしかしたら本当にエキサイティングな何かに参加できるチャンスだと考えました。それで、何年にもわたって、ある種のことを嘆いている人がたくさんいることは知っています、多分、ええと、特に彼にもっと全力のようなことをさせるという点では、進歩がありませんでしたmmtを受け入れてください、私はそれを念頭に置いていなかったと思います、彼がこのまったく異なる考え方を抱きかかえて大統領選に出馬に乗り出すことを知っているでしょう、それは決して現実的ではありませんでした、ええと、しかし私がやっていることは何年にもわたって私たちが見てきたことだと思います、そしてそれには長い時間がかかりました、そしておそらくそれは2015年の決定から始まったようなものですが、私たちはすべて見てきました、考え方の変化だと思います、そしてあなたは新型コロナウイルスについて言及しました、そしてもちろん、オカシオコルテス下院議員の初期の発言もありました、そして彼女が選出される前でさえ、あなたは知っているでしょう、私は彼女と一緒に座りました パブリナは彼女と一緒に座ったと思います、彼女は私はFacebookのライブイベントをやって、学生ローンの免除について話していました。そして、ほら、私たちが今日ここにいることをご存知ですか、おそらくこの政権はその面で少なくとも何かをする方向に動いているので、私はそれができません。あなたの質問のすべての部分を覚えていないのは、箱舟があまりにも広範囲にわたるためです。しかし、あなたは、下院予算委員会の委員長であるジョン・ヤーマス議員と非常に多くの瞬間があったことを知っています、おそらく多くの人が参加していると思います今日、彼がMMTと私の考えを非常にオープンに受け入れるという点で、これまでの議会の誰よりも進んでいたと思います、そして私は彼がそれを理解していることを知っています、彼はそれが何について書かれているかをなんとなく理解しただけではなく、本当に時間をかけて読んだのですそして、テレビに出て、30分間法廷を開き、非常に説得力のある洗練された方法で視聴者にMMTを紹介できる程度まで精通する必要があるので、まだ多くの進歩がありますが、私たちは」確かに良い前進ができました、はい、ありがとう、そしてそれをフォローアップするために一つだけ言えるのは、あなたはそれらのさまざまな瞬間でそのストーリーを伝える方法を知っているということです、そしてオカシオコルテス会議について言及してくれてありがとう、それもまた重要なことだと思うからです論文を書いたり、授業を教えたりする経済学者の学者の職務内容では、自分がやっていることが分かっていない状況がよくあるということだ。それを超えていく何かがあり、その軌跡を遡って考えてみれば、ウォーレン・モズラーとの初期の会議や、ランディらとの80代のミンスキーの学生たちをご存知の方もいるかもしれませんが、一方では、経済的支援を知っていただけて良かったですが、経済的支援を受けている学者のグループはたくさんあります。一方ではそれ』早くからブログを開設できて良かったですが、ブログを開設しているグループはたくさんありますし、一方で、正統派がカバーしていない非常に重要な洞察を持っていることを知っているのは良いことですが、異端派の経済学者もたくさんいます。そういった種類の洞察力をお持ちですね、それでは、MMT の 2025 年というより大きな軌道の中で今話しているその話を考えてみるだけでわかると思いますが、それは何ですか、何か要素はありますか、特にそれについて考えていることはありますか異端経済のことになると、あるいは公共政策の議論に影響力を持とうとしていることを知っているだけで、MMTは彼らの息よりも成功しました、あなたが公共政策を教えていることはわかっています、あなたの影響力は単なる規律上の地位よりも大きいですその面では私は私たちが違うことをしているとあなたが思うことが何かあるかどうか知りたいのですが、だからこそ私たちはこの軌跡の一部を秘密のソースのように説明できるのです、なぜ私たちは今回この瞬間をなんとか掴むことができたのでしょうかわかりません、なぜ私たちがそのような方法で突破口を開くことができたのかわかりません分からないけど、人々を魅了するようなことを言うのは、彼らがこれまで人生で聞いてきたこととは大きく違うからだと思うし、こういう人たちがモトリー・クルーのことを知っているということは、そうだろう、私たちは点滴から来たわけではないし、えーっと私たちは団結してお互いを増幅させたようなものです」ビル・ミッチェルがオーストラリアで執筆活動をし、私たちが米国でブログを立ち上げ、ある種の増幅を行ったことは、そのコア・グループ内から非常に多くのサポートがあり、私たちが定期的に彼の作品を増幅することを知っていることは知っていますが、これは前にも言ったと思いますが、私たちの仕事に早い段階で興味を持ってくれたのは本当に金融ジャーナリストたちで、何らかの理由で、私たちが書いていることを喜んで読んで真剣に受け止め、格闘しようとしたのは一握りのジャーナリストだったと思います。彼らは、物事がどのように機能するかを独自に理解しており、おそらく彼らがすべてを正しく理解していなかった可能性を受け入れ、彼ら自身の頭ではわかっていました。そして、彼らは私たちに少し公平な意見を聞き、参考にし始めました。私たちの仕事もそうだが、問題はなぜ他のグループではそれが起こらなかったのかということだと思う。なぜそうしなかったのかそれは、ポストミーンズコミュニティの他のメンバーがそうだったとしましょう、詐欺がありました、スコットフルアイオワとのイベントがありました、ディーンベイカーとの初期のマネーネットワークイベントの1つで、彼は私が同意することを知っていると言った君たちが言っていることの98を見て、彼は私にはケインズのように聞こえると言ったが、みんなに自分の杖を読んでもらうことができるかどうかは分からない、そして君には何かあった、多分我々は決してできないだろう大きな勝利を収めたので、その間に別のことをやっておこうと思います。MMT が大きな勝利を見失いたくないということか、少なくとも私にとっては関連のある部分のように思えます。そう、そして私がそれを言うと、人々を興奮させる』私が言いたかったのは、端っこでシステムを批判したり批評したりするようなものを超えた何かへの欲求があるということです、ええと、私たちは今日少し勝利を見つけることができるかもしれませんたまたま来て、明日次のモグラたたきをするそうだ、そうしたらここにアロングがやって来て、実際にはもっと大きく、もっと大胆に考えることができると教えてくれる、そしてある種の束縛が外れて、あなたはあなたになると私たちに教えてくれる通常のケインズ主義のようなフレームワークのサンドボックスで遊んでいると、将来の可能性や挑戦に興奮することはできませんが、彼らはそう思っています。この感覚は、彼らが私たちに同意するかどうかに関係なく、あなたが私たちのことを知っているという感覚を持っています。私たちは彼らに対して非常に正直であり、私たちはある意味首を突っ込んでいますが、初期の頃、私の古い同僚、ええとビル・ブラックはよくそれらをキャリアを制限するジェスチャーと呼んでいたことを確かに理解していました、あなたが知っていることをするときに知っているように、キャリアを制限するジェスチャーあなたが連邦準備制度や金融政策の能力について何かを言ったり、経済学者や教員が通常そんなことを言わないことをあなたが知っていることを批判したりすることで、今後のあなたのキャリアの可能性が制限されるだろう、そして私たちはあなたが知っているように喜んで分類しました他の多くの人が言わないと思うことを言って、もっと率直で正直に言うと、人々はそれによく反応すると思うので、質問をひっくり返したいのですが、明らかに成功することがたくさんあることはわかっていますそこには'成功した大きなギャンブルの反省がたくさんあり、他の人も学ぶべきことはあると思いますが、明らかに私たちは独自の反復学習プロセスの中にいます。広範なMMTの旅の中で、お二人にとって本当に心に残っている瞬間はありますか？ 2020 年を後知恵で振り返ると、もし違う方向に進んでいたら、本当に大きな大きな違いがプラスの変化になっていた可能性があることがわかります。実際に変更できたかもしれないことや、今後どうなる可能性があるかがわかります。残念な分かれ道のようなもので、思い浮かぶものは明らかに他人のことでお茶をこぼす必要はありませんが、私たちは皆、よく思い返すことがあります。」ここで何か違うことをしたのか、ああ、本当に機会を逃したんだ。質問から、あなたが実際にここで何か考えていることがわかります。あなたが何を意味するのか知りたいです。私は自分の人生で遊んできました。」これはちょっと気になるんだけど、あなたのものは何だろう、知ってるよ、あなたのものは何なのか、おそらく何十、あるいは100もあるかもしれない、ああ、このようなチャンスを逃した瞬間、物事が少し違った方向に進んでいた可能性がある瞬間、まあみんな、私が一つだけ教えてあげるよあなたが私に電話して、バーニングの仕事を始めると言ったのを覚えています。私は法科大学院で本当に忙しかったのですが、他のことを少しでもやめて、自分がどれほど重要であるかを知っていればよかったのにと思いますそれが私個人のものであることは知っていますが、あなたが今持っているものがあるかどうか知りたいのですmmt 編はよく見てきましたが、私は学術的な経済面との間で頭を悩ませています。私がいつも残念だと思っていることの 1 つは、まさにビジョンのようなものだと思います。学術的で広範なポストケインジアンのようなコミュニティ内で、そしてそれがポストケインジアンだけでなく、どれほど役に立っただろうかということは、私たちは何年にもわたって他の人々と問題を抱えてきました、そして私はあなた以外の名前を言うつもりはありません彼らは私たちが何年も良好な関係を持っていた人々であることを知っていますが、その後、何らかの理由で彼らが反感を持ち始めました、そしてあなたが知っているように、私は考えていますが、私はそれを理解していません、私は決して持っていませんケインズ派コミュニティの投稿者の誰かが書いたものをわざわざ読んで、これが私の時間の使い方だと決めたことは覚えていない 今言ったことすべてに同意できないので、時間を費やすつもりです他の人の作品を壊すことに多くの時間を費やしましたが、私はそんなことは決してしません、そして私たちが関係していた一部の人々との関係がそれほど緊張したことをなぜあなたが知っているのか理解できませんでした長年にわたって良好な関係を築いてきたので、そのようなコミュニティが団結して、新しいさまざまなアイデア、あるいは必ずしも新しいものではないかもしれないが、かつてあったものの一部を再発見するようなものを知っている人たちに侵入させることができればもっとよかったでしょう。早い段階でケインズで、あるいは学習者で、あるいはミンスキーなどから学び、その一部が広範なポストケインズコミュニティか何かの一部になることを許可しましたが、何らかの理由で、ああ、それは起こりませんでした、そして私たちはそうなると思います一緒にいてずっと強くなってきたけど、批判が彼らに向けられたものではなかったとしても、MMTがほのめかした、物事のやり方ややり方を変えるだけの批判は、ほとんど個人攻撃のように感じられたのは確かだ。あなたが知っているように、これ以上のものを求めず、より大きなものを求めないという古いパラダイムで動いているので、常にある種の野望のような緊張感がありましたが、うーん、あなたの指摘では、これは多くの人が行う次の質問への大きな手がかりですmmt をある種のハリネズミ的な学派として扱うのは間違いです。自分が 1 つの大きなことを知っていることだけを知ることに重点を置いています。ああ、mt は赤字についてです。mmt は紙幣の印刷についてです。つまり、実際には mmt は曖昧なパラダイムです。つまり、多くのことをほとんど知らないと言えます。物事、または少なくとも、お金とは何かを知っている大きな質問を 1 つすると、その答えが古代の歴史から憲法、予算、銀行、労働、価格と市場理論に至るまで、さまざまな分野に渡っていくという、おかしなハリネズミのパラダイムのようなものです。別の部屋では仕事の保証がすべてだったり、仕事がすべてだったりすることはわかっていますよね。グリーン・ニューディールなど、これは正統派や金融政策、その他あらゆる類のものを批判するものなので、私の質問は、あなたが比較的受け取ってきたと思っている、より広範なMMTパラダイムの要素や次元や構成要素があることを知っているのではないかということです。特にMMTとは何なのかについての新たな公の言説にはほとんど、あるいは不十分な注目が集まっているが、もし魔法のようなものを発動して、ある種の外に出ている言説に参加する量と時間を増やすことができれば。私たちがコントロールできるのは、それが公の場で言うときの難しい部分だ、なぜなら私が考えていることの多くは説得力があるから、まあ、私たちがそう言いたいかどうかさえ分からない私たちが金融運営や物事がどのように機能するかについて優れた理解を示していることを実証することが、私たちの大きな強みの1つであると常々感じてきましたが、それを一般の人々の前で説明するのは非常に困難です。人々に興味を持ってもらうのは、私の最初の学術出版物は、そのようなことに関するあらゆる種類の『In The Weeds』だったと思います。それは重要なことだと思いますが、実際にそれを明確に表現できることを示すのに役立ちます。」たとえば、税金や国債による支払い資金は、政府支出または融資に関する以前の法律から来ていると私たちが言う理由は、税金を払ったり債券の売却で取り除いたりする前に、ドルを調達しなければならないという権利です。それは仕組みを理解することから生まれますが、一般大衆向けのことを知っていれば、税金が政府支出や、人々が離れて、ある意味で力を与えられたと感じることができる何かを賄うものではないことを簡単に要約することができます。政府は請求書の支払いに納税者のお金に頼っていないと言うが、実際に政府は税金を使ってさえいないが、配管のことをすべて理解する必要はないので、それは重要だと私が考えている象の一部であるが、理解されていないたくさんの注目が集まっているけど、注目されないのには理由があるんだよ」複雑な話ですみません、あなたは学術書から雑誌記事、論説、そして太陽の下でのあらゆる種類のメディアインタビューに至るまで、あらゆるものを書いてきました。ええと、あなたがメディアを制作する際のアウトプットにおいて、どのような優先順位を持っていますか？聴衆の焦点はどのようになったのか 振り返ってみて、それは何年にもわたって進化したと思いますか 外出するときと、外出するときに考えたり心配したりすることに時間を費やしていることに大きな違いはありますかあなたが何に焦点を当てて話そうとしているかが世界に影響を与える 過去と比べて、頭の中で誰に向けて話しているのかがわかる だから、私のお金の使い方に関しては大丈夫私の時間です、あなたはおそらく私ができることを知っているでしょう「はい」とは言えません。つまり、私は頼まれたことのほんの一部しかできません。そして私は常に生徒を優先するように努めています。そこで、数日前に私の講演者局から問い合わせがあり、彼らは、次のようなことがあると言っていました。オックスフォードの高校でイベントをやっているのですが、それは単なる無償提供で、イベントで講演してほしいだけのようです、丁重にお断りしましょうか、私はノーと言いました、ここでは丁重にお断りすべきではありません、これらは私たちがいつも「はい」と言うものですなぜなら、私はこう言いました、そして私は彼女にこう言いました、これは未来のようです、彼らは子供たちです、だから私たちはいつも知っています、プロジェクトに取り組んでいる高校生で、彼らは文章を書いている学生のために時間を作るのは知っていますいくつかの上級新聞と彼ら」
カールトン博士とローワン博士、第 4 回年次現代通貨会議にご参加いただき、誠にありがとうございます。グレースがチャットで言ったように、過去 8 週間にわたって素晴らしいイベントがたくさんありました。前回の会議のすべてを投稿します。ここでの作業が終わったら、ビデオを YouTube にアップロードします。見逃した場合は、戻って素晴らしい会話をご覧ください。それでは、はじめに、今日のプレゼンターのことは皆さんよくご存じだと思いますが、ステファニー ケルトンは経済学と公共学の教授です。ストーニーブルック大学のポリシー国営ラジオとテレビ放送の常連コメンテーターであり、世界中の政策立案者、投資銀行、ポートフォリオマネージャーと相談しており、彼女の研究専門知識は連邦準備制度の運営、財政政策、社会保障、国際金融と雇用政策であり、ロン・グレイはウィラメット大学の法学部教授です。大学ですので、会話を始めるためにローワンに引き渡したいと思います。ありがとうございました。そしてもう一度、ハンナとアシュリー・グレース、チームの皆さん、オンラインで主催者全員に大きな声援を送ります。ええと、カンファレンスは 8 週間にわたって 15 以上の異なるイベントとともに開催されました。えー、すべてがとてもスムーズにまとまっていくのを見るのは信じられないほどでした。後ですべてのビデオがアップされます。そして、ケルトン博士からこの議論を整理する必要があることを知っているでしょう、とカンファレンスを締めくくる完璧なキックオフの方法です。少し細分化して進めていく中で、いくつか質問をさせていただきます。お気軽にチャットに質問を書き込んでください。最後にお答えするか、いくつかの質問を次のような形で組み入れます。一緒に行きますが、キックオフします。これはタイトルが「mmt ここからどこに行くのですか？」というタイトルですので、より具体的に質問から始めます、ステファニー、ええと」mmt の成長には多くの小さな弧があり、さまざまな方法で弧が重なっていることがよくあります。これらの質問の 1 つは、特定のストーリーを伝えるものです。2015 年から今日に至るまでのあなたの歩みですが、上院予算委員会の委員を務め始めたときから始まり、バーニー党の 2016 年とバイデンを通じての2020年の選挙運動は、あなたの本の出版を秘密裏の対応を通じて赤字神話に変え、そしてあなたが立法プロセスに与えた影響、そして今私たちがいるインフレ時代にあなたが行っているこのような執筆のようなものです。聴衆が一歩一歩進むごとに、MMT が大幅に成長し、MMT が公共の議論に対して正当性と中心性を持っていることがわかります。昔々、ニューヨーク タイムズに 1 年に 1 つの記事が掲載されました。もう大事なことだよ』6 分前、えっと、5 月 うーん、それでは、MMT の旅の特定の部分やアークの特定の部分において、重要な極めて重要な瞬間だと考えていることについて、どのようにして生まれたのかについて少し話してもらえますか他の人から学んだ教訓にどう答えましたか、それは大きな歴史の中でかなり重要なことのようですから、まあまあ、それは確かに、あなたがそこに配置したかなり広大な弧ですね、ローワン、それではまず私に聞かせてくださいまずはあなたと主催者に感謝の意を表したいと思います。」第 4 回年次 mmt 会議の一部であった過去の会話やプレゼンテーションの記録がすべて残っていることをとてもうれしく思います。最初の数回のように、私たち全員が直接一緒にこれを行うことができればよかったのにと思います近いうちにまたそうなることを願っています えー、でも、バーチャル イベントですらかなり大がかりな仕事だということはわかっていますが、このようなことをやり遂げるには、たくさんの人が必要ですし、舞台裏で働いている人たちや、ボランティアで時間を割いてくれる人たちもいるのはわかっていますが、これに参加するために参加してくれたすべての人に感謝しています。戻って聞いて、見て、あなたのことを知ることができるからです。ええと、あなたたちがこれまでにまとめてきたものは知っています、そして私はそれができて本当にうれしいです最後尾でご一緒させていただきますので、まあまあですよ」そうですね、たくさんのことが起こったし、多くの点であなたは正しいと思います 2014年にサンダース上院議員からもらった電話から始めるのは正しいと思います 数週間前だったと思いますクリスマス、ご存知の通り、ある日突然電話が鳴り、それがきっかけで会話が始まり、最終的には大学を休学し、家族や友人から離れ、中西部のワシントン DC へ出かけることになりました。米国の民主党の首席エコノミストの職に就く。上院予算委員会で、ああ、これは間違いなく、これが起こっていることが公になった瞬間の一つでした。ワシントン審査官とカンザスシティでの記事は、ただたくさんの記事があったようなものだったことを覚えています。サンダース氏が赤字のフクロウを雇用したのはご存知のような見出しで、人々は間違いなく注目しましたが、多くの人が不安だったと思います。公的資金、その仕組み、政府支出の制限、その他すべてに関する非常に大きく重要な問題についての新しい考え方が、米国上院のような場所に進出して、私が意見を述べられる可能性は十分にあります。永久に破壊的な勢力とでも言おうか、議員たちが関与する意欲があれば、彼らは世界を全く違った見方で見ることができるだろう、そして私は確かにそれを望んでいたが、私のせいで何が起こったのか知っておいてください。サンダース上院議員との初期の会話はご存知でしょうが、サンダース上院議員は大統領選については一度も言及しませんでしたが、そこには十分な情報があったのです。ええと、もしかしたらそれがカードにあるかもしれないということについて、私はそれを、もしかしたら本当にエキサイティングな何かに参加できるチャンスだと考えました。それで、何年にもわたって、ある種のことを嘆いている人がたくさんいることは知っています、多分、ええと、特に彼にもっと全力のようなことをさせるという点では、進歩がありませんでしたmmtを受け入れてください、私はそれを念頭に置いていなかったと思います、彼がこのまったく異なる考え方を抱きかかえて大統領選に出馬に乗り出すことを知っているでしょう、それは決して現実的ではありませんでした、ええと、しかし私がやっていることは何年にもわたって私たちが見てきたことだと思います、そしてそれには長い時間がかかりました、そしておそらくそれは2015年の決定から始まったようなものですが、私たちはすべて見てきました、考え方の変化だと思います、そしてあなたは新型コロナウイルスについて言及しました、そしてもちろん、オカシオコルテス下院議員の初期の発言もありました、そして彼女が選出される前でさえ、あなたは知っているでしょう、私は彼女と一緒に座りました パブリナは彼女と一緒に座ったと思います、彼女は私はFacebookのライブイベントをやって、学生ローンの免除について話していました。そして、ほら、私たちが今日ここにいることをご存知ですか、おそらくこの政権はその面で少なくとも何かをする方向に動いているので、私はそれができません。あなたの質問のすべての部分を覚えていないのは、箱舟があまりにも広範囲にわたるためです。しかし、あなたは、下院予算委員会の委員長であるジョン・ヤーマス議員と非常に多くの瞬間があったことを知っています、おそらく多くの人が参加していると思います今日、彼がMMTと私の考えを非常にオープンに受け入れるという点で、これまでの議会の誰よりも進んでいたと思います、そして私は彼がそれを理解していることを知っています、彼はそれが何について書かれているかをなんとなく理解しただけではなく、本当に時間をかけて読んだのですそして、テレビに出て、30分間法廷を開き、非常に説得力のある洗練された方法で視聴者にMMTを紹介できる程度まで精通する必要があるので、まだ多くの進歩がありますが、私たちは」確かに良い前進ができました、はい、ありがとう、そしてそれをフォローアップするために一つだけ言えるのは、あなたはそれらのさまざまな瞬間でそのストーリーを伝える方法を知っているということです、そしてオカシオコルテス会議について言及してくれてありがとう、それもまた重要なことだと思うからです論文を書いたり、授業を教えたりする経済学者の学者の職務内容では、自分がやっていることが分かっていない状況がよくあるということだ。それを超えていく何かがあり、その軌跡を遡って考えてみれば、ウォーレン・モズラーとの初期の会議や、ランディらとの80代のミンスキーの学生たちをご存知の方もいるかもしれませんが、一方では、経済的支援を知っていただけて良かったですが、経済的支援を受けている学者のグループはたくさんあります。一方ではそれ』早くからブログを開設できて良かったですが、ブログを開設しているグループはたくさんありますし、一方で、正統派がカバーしていない非常に重要な洞察を持っていることを知っているのは良いことですが、異端派の経済学者もたくさんいます。そういった種類の洞察力をお持ちですね、それでは、MMT の 2025 年というより大きな軌道の中で今話しているその話を考えてみるだけでわかると思いますが、それは何ですか、何か要素はありますか、特にそれについて考えていることはありますか異端経済のことになると、あるいは公共政策の議論に影響力を持とうとしていることを知っているだけで、MMTは彼らの息よりも成功しました、あなたが公共政策を教えていることはわかっています、あなたの影響力は単なる規律上の地位よりも大きいですその面では私は私たちが違うことをしているとあなたが思うことが何かあるかどうか知りたいのですが、だからこそ私たちはこの軌跡の一部を秘密のソースのように説明できるのです、なぜ私たちは今回この瞬間をなんとか掴むことができたのでしょうかわかりません、なぜ私たちがそのような方法で突破口を開くことができたのかわかりません分からないけど、人々を魅了するようなことを言うのは、彼らがこれまで人生で聞いてきたこととは大きく違うからだと思うし、こういう人たちがモトリー・クルーのことを知っているということは、そうだろう、私たちは点滴から来たわけではないし、えーっと私たちは団結してお互いを増幅させたようなものです」ビル・ミッチェルがオーストラリアで執筆活動をし、私たちが米国でブログを立ち上げ、ある種の増幅を行ったことは、そのコア・グループ内から非常に多くのサポートがあり、私たちが定期的に彼の作品を増幅することを知っていることは知っていますが、これは前にも言ったと思いますが、私たちの仕事に早い段階で興味を持ってくれたのは本当に金融ジャーナリストたちで、何らかの理由で、私たちが書いていることを喜んで読んで真剣に受け止め、格闘しようとしたのは一握りのジャーナリストだったと思います。彼らは、物事がどのように機能するかを独自に理解しており、おそらく彼らがすべてを正しく理解していなかった可能性を受け入れ、彼ら自身の頭ではわかっていました。そして、彼らは私たちに少し公平な意見を聞き、参考にし始めました。私たちの仕事もそうだが、問題はなぜ他のグループではそれが起こらなかったのかということだと思う。なぜそうしなかったのかそれは、ポストミーンズコミュニティの他のメンバーがそうだったとしましょう、詐欺がありました、スコットフルアイオワとのイベントがありました、ディーンベイカーとの初期のマネーネットワークイベントの1つで、彼は私が同意することを知っていると言った君たちが言っていることの98を見て、彼は私にはケインズのように聞こえると言ったが、みんなに自分の杖を読んでもらうことができるかどうかは分からない、そして君には何かあった、多分我々は決してできないだろう大きな勝利を収めたので、その間に別のことをやっておこうと思います。MMT が大きな勝利を見失いたくないということか、少なくとも私にとっては関連のある部分のように思えます。そう、そして私がそれを言うと、人々を興奮させる』私が言いたかったのは、端っこでシステムを批判したり批評したりするようなものを超えた何かへの欲求があるということです、ええと、私たちは今日少し勝利を見つけることができるかもしれませんたまたま来て、明日次のモグラたたきをするそうだ、そうしたらここにアロングがやって来て、実際にはもっと大きく、もっと大胆に考えることができると教えてくれる、そしてある種の束縛が外れて、あなたはあなたになると私たちに教えてくれる通常のケインズ主義のようなフレームワークのサンドボックスで遊んでいると、将来の可能性や挑戦に興奮することはできませんが、彼らはそう思っています。この感覚は、彼らが私たちに同意するかどうかに関係なく、あなたが私たちのことを知っているという感覚を持っています。私たちは彼らに対して非常に正直であり、私たちはある意味首を突っ込んでいますが、初期の頃、私の古い同僚、ええとビル・ブラックはよくそれらをキャリアを制限するジェスチャーと呼んでいたことを確かに理解していました、あなたが知っていることをするときに知っているように、キャリアを制限するジェスチャーあなたが連邦準備制度や金融政策の能力について何かを言ったり、経済学者や教員が通常そんなことを言わないことをあなたが知っていることを批判したりすることで、今後のあなたのキャリアの可能性が制限されるだろう、そして私たちはあなたが知っているように喜んで分類しました他の多くの人が言わないと思うことを言って、もっと率直で正直に言うと、人々はそれによく反応すると思うので、質問をひっくり返したいのですが、明らかに成功することがたくさんあることはわかっていますそこには'成功した大きなギャンブルの反省がたくさんあり、他の人も学ぶべきことはあると思いますが、明らかに私たちは独自の反復学習プロセスの中にいます。広範なMMTの旅の中で、お二人にとって本当に心に残っている瞬間はありますか？ 2020 年を後知恵で振り返ると、もし違う方向に進んでいたら、本当に大きな大きな違いがプラスの変化になっていた可能性があることがわかります。実際に変更できたかもしれないことや、今後どうなる可能性があるかがわかります。残念な分かれ道のようなもので、思い浮かぶものは明らかに他人のことでお茶をこぼす必要はありませんが、私たちは皆、よく思い返すことがあります。」ここで何か違うことをしたのか、ああ、本当に機会を逃したんだ。質問から、あなたが実際にここで何か考えていることがわかります。あなたが何を意味するのか知りたいです。私は自分の人生で遊んできました。」これはちょっと気になるんだけど、あなたのものは何だろう、知ってるよ、あなたのものは何なのか、おそらく何十、あるいは100もあるかもしれない、ああ、このようなチャンスを逃した瞬間、物事が少し違った方向に進んでいた可能性がある瞬間、まあみんな、私が一つだけ教えてあげるよあなたが私に電話して、バーニングの仕事を始めると言ったのを覚えています。私は法科大学院で本当に忙しかったのですが、他のことを少しでもやめて、自分がどれほど重要であるかを知っていればよかったのにと思いますそれが私個人のものであることは知っていますが、あなたが今持っているものがあるかどうか知りたいのですmmt 編はよく見てきましたが、私は学術的な経済面との間で頭を悩ませています。私がいつも残念だと思っていることの 1 つは、まさにビジョンのようなものだと思います。学術的で広範なポストケインジアンのようなコミュニティ内で、そしてそれがポストケインジアンだけでなく、どれほど役に立っただろうかということは、私たちは何年にもわたって他の人々と問題を抱えてきました、そして私はあなた以外の名前を言うつもりはありません彼らは私たちが何年も良好な関係を持っていた人々であることを知っていますが、その後、何らかの理由で彼らが反感を持ち始めました、そしてあなたが知っているように、私は考えていますが、私はそれを理解していません、私は決して持っていませんケインズ派コミュニティの投稿者の誰かが書いたものをわざわざ読んで、これが私の時間の使い方だと決めたことは覚えていない 今言ったことすべてに同意できないので、時間を費やすつもりです他の人の作品を壊すことに多くの時間を費やしましたが、私はそんなことは決してしません、そして私たちが関係していた一部の人々との関係がそれほど緊張したことをなぜあなたが知っているのか理解できませんでした長年にわたって良好な関係を築いてきたので、そのようなコミュニティが団結して、新しいさまざまなアイデア、あるいは必ずしも新しいものではないかもしれないが、かつてあったものの一部を再発見するようなものを知っている人たちに侵入させることができればもっとよかったでしょう。早い段階でケインズで、あるいは学習者で、あるいはミンスキーなどから学び、その一部が広範なポストケインズコミュニティか何かの一部になることを許可しましたが、何らかの理由で、ああ、それは起こりませんでした、そして私たちはそうなると思います一緒にいてずっと強くなってきたけど、批判が彼らに向けられたものではなかったとしても、MMTがほのめかした、物事のやり方ややり方を変えるだけの批判は、ほとんど個人攻撃のように感じられたのは確かだ。あなたが知っているように、これ以上のものを求めず、より大きなものを求めないという古いパラダイムで動いているので、常にある種の野望のような緊張感がありましたが、うーん、あなたの指摘では、これは多くの人が行う次の質問への大きな手がかりですmmt をある種のハリネズミ的な学派として扱うのは間違いです。自分が 1 つの大きなことを知っていることだけを知ることに重点を置いています。ああ、mt は赤字についてです。mmt は紙幣の印刷についてです。つまり、実際には mmt は曖昧なパラダイムです。つまり、多くのことをほとんど知らないと言えます。物事、または少なくとも、お金とは何かを知っている大きな質問を 1 つすると、その答えが古代の歴史から憲法、予算、銀行、労働、価格と市場理論に至るまで、さまざまな分野に渡っていくという、おかしなハリネズミのパラダイムのようなものです。別の部屋では仕事の保証がすべてだったり、仕事がすべてだったりすることはわかっていますよね。グリーン・ニューディールなど、これは正統派や金融政策、その他あらゆる類のものを批判するものなので、私の質問は、あなたが比較的受け取ってきたと思っている、より広範なMMTパラダイムの要素や次元や構成要素があることを知っているのではないかということです。特にMMTとは何なのかについての新たな公の言説にはほとんど、あるいは不十分な注目が集まっているが、もし魔法のようなものを発動して、ある種の外に出ている言説に参加する量と時間を増やすことができれば。私たちがコントロールできるのは、それが公の場で言うときの難しい部分だ、なぜなら私が考えていることの多くは説得力があるから、まあ、私たちがそう言いたいかどうかさえ分からない私たちが金融運営や物事がどのように機能するかについて優れた理解を示していることを実証することが、私たちの大きな強みの1つであると常々感じてきましたが、それを一般の人々の前で説明するのは非常に困難です。人々に興味を持ってもらうのは、私の最初の学術出版物は、そのようなことに関するあらゆる種類の『In The Weeds』だったと思います。それは重要なことだと思いますが、実際にそれを明確に表現できることを示すのに役立ちます。」たとえば、税金や国債による支払い資金は、政府支出または融資に関する以前の法律から来ていると私たちが言う理由は、税金を払ったり債券の売却で取り除いたりする前に、ドルを調達しなければならないという権利です。それは仕組みを理解することから生まれますが、一般大衆向けのことを知っていれば、税金が政府支出や、人々が離れて、ある意味で力を与えられたと感じることができる何かを賄うものではないことを簡単に要約することができます。政府は請求書の支払いに納税者のお金に頼っていないと言うが、実際に政府は税金を使ってさえいないが、配管のことをすべて理解する必要はないので、それは重要だと私が考えている象の一部であるが、理解されていないたくさんの注目が集まっているけど、注目されないのには理由があるんだよ」複雑な話ですみません、あなたは学術書から雑誌記事、論説、そして太陽の下でのあらゆる種類のメディアインタビューに至るまで、あらゆるものを書いてきました。ええと、あなたがメディアを制作する際のアウトプットにおいて、どのような優先順位を持っていますか？聴衆の焦点はどのようになったのか 振り返ってみて、それは何年にもわたって進化したと思いますか 外出するときと、外出するときに考えたり心配したりすることに時間を費やしていることに大きな違いはありますかあなたが何に焦点を当てて話そうとしているかが世界に影響を与える 過去と比べて、頭の中で誰に向けて話しているのかがわかる だから、私のお金の使い方に関しては大丈夫私の時間です、あなたはおそらく私ができることを知っているでしょう「はい」とは言えません。つまり、私は頼まれたことのほんの一部しかできません。そして私は常に生徒を優先するように努めています。そこで、数日前に私の講演者局から問い合わせがあり、彼らは、次のようなことがあると言っていました。オックスフォードの高校でイベントをやっているのですが、それは単なる無償提供で、イベントで講演してほしいだけのようです、丁重にお断りしましょうか、私はノーと言いました、ここでは丁重にお断りすべきではありません、これらは私たちがいつも「はい」と言うものですなぜなら、私はこう言いました、そして私は彼女にこう言いました、これは未来のようです、彼らは子供たちです、だから私たちはいつも知っています、プロジェクトに取り組んでいる高校生で、彼らは文章を書いている学生のために時間を作るのは知っていますいくつかの上級新聞と彼ら」
就職保証とかmmtとかそういうのを選んだんですけど、ズームしてもらえませんか、面接してもらえますか、できますか、学生たちはいつもリストの一番上に来るんです、ああ、私のことです、そして大体あなたは私のふるいが私がそうではないことを知っています合唱団に説教することに興味があるので、ポッドキャストやメディアの機会、または超フレンドリーなグループに入ってMMTやその他あまり見かけないものを説明するような講演の機会はあまり探していませんええと、それをするのは有益な目的なので、私はライオンの巣窟に入るのが好きです、私が理解している事実すべてに聴衆が同意しない傾向があり、議論して訴訟を提起する傾向があると思われる場所に行くのが好きですだから私は」ビットコインを知っているでしょう、私は招待状を受け取りました、私たちはビットコインに関する最大のポッドキャストです、より多くのリスナーがいます、他の誰でも大丈夫、大丈夫、私はそれをしました、ええと、私はアンソニー・スカラムッチと数回行きました、なぜなら私がそうであることを知っているからですこの種のことをまだ聞いていない聴衆にリーチするつもりなので、そうするのが好きです、そして、私が追加したのと同じようなもので、MMTの学術研究奨学金を書くことに興味があるかもしれない人々のために、ええと、そうではないかもしれませんあなたが知っている 25 種類の異なる招待状を用意して、それらの間でふるい分ける機会がありますが、特定の聴衆や、受け入れやすい聴衆、または直感的にそうは思わない聴衆を彼らは知らないかもしれません。」私たちが影響を与えることができる場所なので、現在アクセスできる聴衆はいますか。15、20年前には学術界に入るなど考えもしなかったような、非常に貴重な聴衆がいると思いますか？あなたが話しているのはどのような人々ですか、えっと、どういう意味ですか、非常に貴重な内部井戸です、ただ生産的なグループで、まあ、受容的だと思われる、あるいは興味や能力があると思われる、彼らの活動のおかげでそれを理解する能力があると思われます。あなたはたくさんのファイナンシャル・プランナーと話していると思いますが、彼らは実際にお金に対して受託者としての責任を負っているので、それを気にかけているグループのようです、ええと、おそらくあなたがそうするかどうかはわかりませんが、私はそうしませんこの話に入るのは、あなたにこの問題を正しく理解してもらいたいと思っている聴衆だったとは思いません。他にあなたのところに来る人がいるかどうか知りたいのですが、いえいえ、それはあなたが知っている金融グループのことです真実ではないように聞こえるかもしれませんが、彼らは正しく理解すること以外はあまり気にしていないのはその通りだと私は信じています。そのため、もし彼らが量理論を信じているのであれば、誰かが力学についてより優れた枠組みを理解していると考えるのであれば、お金 M が上がる P が上がる、そして彼らは、あなたが知っている M2 を見ればよいと信じて金融賭けをしています。インフレが将来どこへ向かうのかについて重要なことを学ぶつもりだ、あるいは財政赤字を見て、これが将来金利がどこに動くべきかについての洞察を必然的に与えるだろうと彼らは考えている、そして彼らはそれをあなたに知らせているのだ。財務上の立場を取っているのに、彼らは間違っている、彼らは間違わない方法を知りたがっている、それで、ええと、雇用保証は有用な安定剤であるということに彼らが同意しないかもしれないことはわかっています、ええと、社会的、道徳的にそれを支持しているのはご存知ですか理由か何かだけど、そのような聴衆が何年にもわたってMMTを非常に受け入れてきたということは十分にありますし、それからあなたが受け入れないグループは他にもたくさんありますあなたがMMTの中核テナントを知っていることを理解することにあまり興味があるとは思わないかもしれませんが、彼らはあなたが煉瓦工組合のことを知っているのと同じように、彼が昨年、膨大な数の組合員や自動車会社の幹部やエンジニアと話をしていることを知っています。ウェストバージニア州で大きな話題になっているのは、これらのグループをご存知の方もいると思いますが、彼らはそれがなぜ本当に重要なのかを理解しています。なぜなら、政策対応が弱く経済が弱ければ売上も低迷し、その結果として自分たちの業界が苦しむことを彼らは理解しているからです。より良い公共政策が整備され、より広範な繁栄を伴うより良い経済が実現すれば、人々は外に出てこれらの車やそれが何であれ購入することができます。彼らはさまざまな考え方に共感します。彼らは独断的ではなく、その一部は明らかにあなたが言ったように、何か言いたいことがある』一般的な繁栄、またはそれらのグループに特に影響を与える問題のいずれかに関連しています。 お腹を空かした博士課程の学生が 10 人いた場合、トピックのアイデアを教えてくださいと言われたら、何か知っていることがあれば知りたいのですが、パラダイムを実際に拡張できる場所はどこですか私は価値を加えます あなたが知っているものをさらに肉付けします アイデアを取り入れて、新しいコンテキストで実行します あなたが試みる他のすべてのことに加えて、研究を行うために自分のクローンを 10 個持っていたとしたら、何か思い浮かぶことはありますか明らかにあなたに集中するためです」君の本が出版される予定だけど、その後、ネイサン・タンカスのクローン10体を掘り下げるために関わりたいと考えている他の分野はある？価格理論と価格設定について、より洗練された研究を考えてください。 インフレ管理、自動安定装置の税制についてです。 つまり、博士課程の学生が 10 人、そして 1 人、そして博士課程の優秀な学生が 1 人いたとしても、人々が貢献できる方法は十分にある分野がたくさんあるということです。あなたの仕事を中心としたより広範な学術プロジェクトに、つまり、正直に言うと、少し時間がかかりました、あなたが正しいことはわかっていましたが、私はそうではありませんでしたなぜ早い段階であなたが正しかったのかよくわかりません、なぜならそれは何年も早く、あなたはこれに夢中になっていたからです、あなたはデジタル通貨を知っています、そして私は温度、ああやめなさい、私と同じようにドルはデジタルではない、と言い続けましたあなたの言うことを理解するのに少し時間がかかりましたあなたが独自の研究をしていて、それはMMTだと言いたいかどうかはわかりませんが、MMTが隣接しているそうです、MMTがそれを主張するのと同じくらい、そうです、私はそれを伝統に基づいて考えています、間違いなくそうするでしょう、それは大きな空白を埋めると思います、そしてだって、通貨制度に関することなら、通貨制度というのは、この狭い公的資金準備金や通貨だけではないということは、ある種の正しいことだと思いますし、今なら理解できますが、それがいつだったのか、どうしてそれを見逃すことができたのでしょうか？世界中の政策立案者が今非常に注目していることは明らかに重要であり、この分野ですでに何年間の研究が行われているかご存知のとおり、それは消えないと思います、それはもう一つの巨大な分野です、金融政策今から5年後の金融政策は、今日のようなものになると思います、そうです、それはあなたが感じることができます、あなたはそれが流動的であることを感じることができます、ええと、そしてあなたはあなたの信用抑留に対して彼が私が本当に感謝していることの1つであることを知っています初期の 8 日間から、この種の新しいコンポーネントの統合は進化的であり、パラダイムの深化する部分を追加し、また何を検討するかということを示していました。」世界で起こっていること、そしてそれらの問題との関連性を維持しようとしているので、私たちが最初のMMTカンファレンスのラインナップを設定することについて話していたとき、あなたが基調講演について何かアイデアはないかと言っていたとき、私はこの男ブレット・スコットが以前から活動していると答えたのを覚えています。この素晴らしい仕事をしていると、あなたは現金戦争を知っています、そしてあなたは言った、私は彼と一緒にパドルに乗っていました、絶対にやろう、だからあなたがそれを理解していなかったとしても、私たちはすでに傾いていました、そしてそれは今の戦いへの2016年でした「セントラルになることは、常に砥石や通りに鼻を向けて、角を曲がったところに何が起こるかを見極めることがスキルの一部だと思うからです。でも、その面で注目すべきことの 1 つを知っていると思います。」MNTの人気の高まりに伴い、MNTのさまざまな層や顔がさまざまな文脈やさまざまな聴衆の間で顕著になっていくのを観察してきたが、一部の人にとっては正しいことであり、ある人にとっては組織団体の間で受け入れられているようなものであり、一部の人にとっては政治的、左派的なものである。メディアエリートは知っていますよね、金融ジャーナリスト、選挙で選ばれた役人、そして多くの場所で、それはアカデミー全体のさまざまな分野、法律、人文科学、会計財務、そしてそれはビジネスコミュニティに到達する前の話であり、そのようなことすべてです、でも、もしあなたが尋ねたら、彼らはそれぞれ、MMTが自分たちのグループよりも他のグループと関係があるとは思っていないかもしれない、あなたもよく知っているMMTは、彼らは私たちの一員である、彼らは左翼である、または彼らは私たちの一人である、彼らはある種です金融の専門家か何かですね、そして、これらの異なるアイデンティティが異なる部屋に存在するのは、おそらく完全に調和することは決して不可能であるため、少し分離的になります。あなたがさまざまな人に対して非常に多くの異なるものであることをどのように乗り越えてきたか、そしてその緊張感がどのように自分自身にどのように影響するかについての反省、あなたはプロのアイデンティティまたはプロの行動を知っています、つまり、見てください、私はかなりオープンな本だと思います、ええと、私はそうでしたバーニー・サンダース首席エコノミスト、ほら、ほら、隠すのが大変だよ、私はそれを誇りを持って着ている、私は進歩主義者だ、うーん、イベントで講演するよう私を招待する人は誰でも、序文の自己紹介には、えー、努力は何もないって書いてあると思うよ私としては、それを誇りに思っていることをごまかそうとしているのですが、私は自分のやった仕事を誇りに思っています、私は彼を誇りに思っています、ええと、それで私は中に入って、おそらくあなたはもちろん知っているでしょう、あなたは聴衆の前で話すために出席し、異なる聴衆の前で異なることを強調しますええと、でもあなたはそうではありません、私はそうではありません、何も隠そうとはしません、何のパンチも引かない、私はそこにいます、あなたは知っています、面白いことに、レンガ職人のことを言いました、そして私はウェストバージニアのことを言いました、私はシカゴから飛行機で行きましたウェストバージニア州と私は全く同じ一連の発言をしました、言葉を変えますが、つまり、同じスライドや私の口から出てくるものは何でも知っていますが、基本的には同じ話でした。なぜなら、彼らは背中合わせでしたからです、そしてここにその一つがありますそうだ、組合グループだ、そして私はそこに入り、組合グループの前で自分の仕事をし、それから2、3日後に私は私は自動車会社の幹部、つまり CEO、CFO、ええと、エンジニアの前で、それはまったく異なる聴衆でした。私はまったく同じ講演をしましたが、どちらの場所でも同じ反応を得ました。聴衆からは圧倒的に肯定的な反応がありました。それで、わかりますか人々が私がバーディ選手にこれほど同意するとは思わなかった、またはこれがこれほど洞察力に富んでいるとは予想していなかった、と人々が考えるのはショックです、なぜなら私にとってそれらはしばしば次のように思われる空間だからです。人々はすぐにお互いを割り引くだろうから、それよりも、私はあなたが二枚舌を言っているということをほのめかそうとしたのですが、ここは人々が他家受粉を見つけることを期待していない場所であり、それは常に起こっているので、私が夫のポールに頭をぶつけてきたと言っていることを知っているでしょう。数分前、先月ブリュッセルにいたとき、私はこの前に座っていました。ご存知の通り、大勢の聴衆がいて、私たちは炉端でちょっとしたおしゃべりが好きだったので、私たちが何をしているかのようなものです、どこから質問を受けたか知っていますか？ああ、トップの金融アナリスト、ああ、大手金融機関、そして彼はこれらの質問をし、私は答えて答えています、そして彼は明らかに、最初はMMTがこれであるという印象を持っていました、そして私から答えを得たとき、彼は学び始めました彼は mmt が実際に何についてのものなのかをあまりよく理解していなかったので、私は私は彼に答えを与えていて、ある時点で彼は「そうですね、それならそうだね」と言ったので、私も同意すると思います、そして私はそれが非常に賢明だからと答えました、そして聴衆は笑いました、そしてそれはちょうど軽い瞬間でした。あなたが言いたいのは、人々は最終的に合意に至るとは思っていなかったということです。そして驚くべきことに、受け入れられるだけでなく、もっとたくさんのことがそこにあるのです。どうして私たちはこれらの線に沿って考えられなかったのかと思いそうになります。なぜ私たちがこれらのことをしないのか知っています、そう、それはいつも起こっていることです、つまり、これについて興味深いことの1つは、左派として効果的であるか、または事実上左派の経済理論であるかという文脈がよくあることです前提としては、話す価値があるのは特定の聴衆だけですが、私が思うに、強さの一部は、完全ではないにしても、金融ジャーナリストからのしぶしぶ敬意や承認を得ることで得られることです 知っている実務家からのコミュニティなど、それが許可されているということですマルクス国旗だけでバリケードを襲撃することは、これほど多くの人々がこれほど多くのスペースに入ることができなかったはずだということを知っている正当性があるので、私はただ興味があります、あなたが政治的目標や政治的目標についてどのように考えているのか、あるいは実際に世界をより良い場所にするという目標と、知的なパラダイムがさまざまな組織戦略や戦術、そしてあなたが知っていることを横断する方法のようなものです。あなたがバランスをとったり、自分について考えたりする必要がある意味はありますか？これには理由があってやっているのです」私は世界をより良くするために毎日起きています、それが私がこれをしている理由です、そしてこれを行うために私をこれらの空間にかなり遠くまで連れて行きます、でもすべてが戻ってきます、すべてには理由があります、ええとそこにいますその緊張を乗り越えようとしている人々に何かアドバイスがあれば教えてください。私の個人的な経験から言えますが、例えばデジタル キャッシュに関して私が現在行っていることは、そのテクノロジーを開発している多くの企業と同じ部屋に私を強制的に入れさせられました。なぜなら、そのテクノロジーが存在しなければ、公共政策がそれを採用すべきとは言えないからです。そして、私は決してそのような人間にはなれないだろうと思っていました。企業、業界、製品と協力する必要がありますが、それが仕事が私を連れて行った場所であり、それです。」この政策に影響力を持つためには何が起こる必要があるのか、そこにシェイズ・オブ・グレイがあると言うわけではないが、ただ単にそれに従う以外に、これらすべてのステップを外部の人々に説明するのは難しい。あなたはそうしているのですが、そのような動きについて何か考えや反省、あるいはあなたが持っているかもしれないことがあるかどうか知りたいのですが、あなたは喜んでイエスと言うことができて幸せだと思います。パズルのピースの次の部分をぴったりと配置することの価値や、それがどのように配置されるかを理解していないかもしれませんが、これらのことのいくつかに「はい」と言うのと同じように、最終目標はそこにあるということを理解していますあなた'究極の終点に到達するには、これらの他の動作のいくつかを通過する必要があるので、まあ、わかっていると思いますが、できる限りそうするように努めています。この「はい」がどのように私に役立つのか考えていないグループへ、わかっていますが、すべてに明らかな利点が見られないこともありますが、通常とは異なる方法で「はい」と言おうとするだけで、それが多くのことだと思います学者たちも、私はこのインタビューはできないと言っているので彼らが不快であることは理解していますが、誰々に電話するべきです。さもなければ、3人の名前か何かを教えてもいいでしょう。彼らがそうであることを報道したくない人もいます。ジャーナリストと話すのは気が進まないテレビやラジオに出たくない、それはわかるけど、そういうことこそが、あなたを前進させる推進力を助ける類のものだ グループと会うのは、誰かが手を差し伸べて、興味があると言ったら時間がかかるあなたがやっている仕事の中で、私はこの小さな部分を理解していませんが、電子メールとあなたが知っている何かで返信できれば、それが圧倒される可能性があるものは終わった、そしてそれは疲れ果てます、そして私たちにはできないことはわかっています'すべてが24時間365日前進するだけではありませんが、可能な限りイエスと言うと思います。つまり、これは私が非常に早い段階で気づいたことでした、これはすべての学者のグループの中で、私は常に直接メールを受け取るということでした、それは常にイエスだということですどうしたらいいですか 運動の構築はそのような一対一のサポートから始まるということはわかっていますが、同時に、一日の時間は限られていることもわかっていると思います、そしてあなたの一部だと思います優先順位付けは「ノー」と言っていることもわかっています、私たちは先に進みます、それで私がそれについて私が抱いた質問の1つは、MMTが勝利を宣言する準備ができている、またはページを開くことができる、またはおそらくできると思う問題や知的議論はありますかということですそうじゃないのは知ってるよ他のものと比べて優先事項として、多くの擁護努力を捧げる必要はありませんか ゲームのこの段階で、これまでの段階とは異なるかもしれないが、今の焦点を再調整するようなことはありますか? それはインフレでなければならないと思いますそうですね、つまりウォーレン・モズラーはいつもこう言っていました、これは20数年前に遡ります。インフレについて彼らに議論させたら、あなたはすでに勝ち取ったものだとウォーレンは言うでしょう、それは一種の彼のセリフであり、私たちはそうではないので彼はそう言いました何かがインフレになるかどうかについて議論していた段階で、財政赤字や死者への影響、持続可能性や転換点や比率について議論していた段階に戻っていた。お金がギリシャに変わったりとか、そういうこと、そして今私が言いたいのはあなたのことです政府には XYZ メディケアを行う余裕はないのでインフレが関連する制約になっているという議論を押し返す正しい人を AEI でさえ見つけるのは困難であり、少なくともそこには問題があると思います。ある種の旗を立てていることを知っていると言うのは気が楽かもしれないし、議論のその部分では我々が勝利したようだということは知っているだろうが、インフレの問題は明らかに我々が今日いる場所であり、それに対する簡単な答えはない。それとそれも」これは次のバトルフロントだと思います。以前のコメントに戻ると、mmt の強みの 1 つは、金融業務に焦点を当てたある種の運営上の強み、洗練された技術的な理解であるとおっしゃっていました。私が何を強みとしているのかご存知だと思います。私とラウル・カリーロや他の人たちがやろうとしたことは、法律の専門的な事柄を議題に上げ、それを会計や中央銀行業務、財務に加えることだったのですが、上院での仕事を考えれば分かると思っていました。そして、このすべてのメディアには、メディアとの関係を管理する方法や、ご存知のとおり議会の扉の裏側で何が起こっているかについて、技術的または運用上の別の層の技術的能力や運用上の能力があると思います。私'私たちが会計について考えるのと同じように技術について考えることのできない、他の種類の技術的能力があるかどうか興味があります。
0:06well thank you so much for joining us Dr Carlton and Rowan here for the fourth annual modern monetary conference we've
0:13had a number of great events over the last eight weeks as Grace said in the chat we'll be posting all of the
0:20previous conference videos to YouTube after we're done here so if you missed any you can go back and catch those
0:25great conversations so to intro um I'm sure everyone is a familiar with
0:33our presenters today but uh Stephanie Kelton is a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University
0:40she's a regular commentator on National radio and broadcast television and she
0:45consults with policy makers investment Banks and portfolio managers across the globe her research expertise is in
0:52Federal Reserve operations fiscal policy Social Security international finance
0:58and employment policy and Ron Gray is a professor of law at Willamette University
1:04so with that I think I'll turn it over to Rowan to get the conversation started
1:09great well thank you very much and once again just a huge shout out to all of the organizers to Hannah and Ashley
1:15Grace everyone on the team uh this online uh conference has taken place
1:22over eight weeks with over 15 different events and it's been incredible to watch
1:27um it all come together so smoothly all the videos will be up afterwards and and what a perfect way to kick off to
1:33conclude the conference with uh you know from Dr Kelton our this discussion that
1:38we're having to to sort of break it up a little bit so I'll have a number of questions as we go along uh feel free to
1:43put your questions in the chat and we'll either get to them at the end or I'll incorporate some of them as we uh go
1:49along but I'll kick us off and you know this is uh titled mmt where do we go from here so I'll kick off with the
1:57question sort of more specifically you Stephanie um there's been a lot of mini arcs in the growth of mmt often
2:03overlapping arcs in different ways one of these asks that tells a particular story is your journey from 2015 into
2:09today but beginning when you started serving on the Senate budget committee through the Bernie's 2016 and 2020
2:15campaigns through the Biden transition the publication of your book the deficit myth through the covert response and and
2:23the influence that you had on the uh the legislative process and now sort of this writing that you're doing in the
2:29inflationary era we find ourselves in and each step the audience reach you know public stature that you have that
2:36mmt has grown significantly uh and has the sort of legitimacy and centrality of
2:41mmt to the public discourse you know once upon a time we got one New York Times article a year was a big deal now
2:47there's half a dozen before before uh May um so can you talk a little bit about
2:52what some of you what you consider to be the the key pivotal moments in in that
2:57particular part of the mmt journey or that particular Arc sort of how they came about how you responded any lessons
3:04that you took from others because it seems to be a pretty important one in the larger history
3:10well okay sure gosh that's a that's a pretty um sweeping Arc that you've um laid out
3:18there Rowan and so first let me just start by saying thank you to you and to
3:23the organizers I wish and I'm so glad that there is you know a record of all
3:29of the past conversations and presentations that have been part of the fourth annual mmt conference I wish that
3:35we were all doing this together in person the way that we did the first few um and I hope that that will happen
3:41again before long uh but I know that you know even virtual events are a pretty
3:48big undertaking it takes a lot of people to pull off something like this and those working behind the scenes and
3:54um you know volunteering their time and and to everyone who's made themselves available to be part of this I'm
4:00grateful because I can go back and listen and watch and catch myself up on
4:05you know uh what you all have have put together thus far and I'm just glad to
4:11be able to join you here at the very tail end so um gosh
4:17you're right that a lot has happened and in a lot of ways it you're I think
4:24you're right to sort of start with that phone call that I got from Senator Sanders back in gosh 2014 I think it was
4:32a couple of weeks before Christmas and you know out of the blue the phone rang one day and it started a
4:39conversation that ultimately led to me taking a leave of absence from the
4:45University and moving away from my family and friends uh in the Midwest and
4:52going out to Washington DC to take the job as the chief Economist for the
4:58Democrats on the U.S Senate budget committee and uh you know that was
5:04definitely one of those moments where when it became public that that this was happening and I can remember the
5:11Articles you know in the Washington examiner and the Kansas City are like there were just a lot of articles
5:17Sanders hires deficit owl like you know sort of headlines like that and people
5:23definitely took notice and I think it um it was unsettling for a lot of people
5:29because they thought uh oh here comes mmt to Washington DC potentially to the
5:36halls of power where you know a new way of thinking about some very big and
5:42important questions about public money the way it works the limitations on
5:48government spending and all the rest of it um might well make their way into a
5:55place like the U.S Senate where they could be a I'll say a disruptive Force
6:00for good where you know lawmakers could if they were willing to engage uh they
6:07they could begin to see the world very differently and uh and I I certainly
6:12hoped that that would be you know what happened as a as a result of me taking a
6:18sort of leap of faith in um making the decision to go there and
6:24and to do that and I will say that you know those early conversations with Senator Sanders while he never mentioned
6:31a presidential run there was enough out there you know you could read about uh
6:36that maybe that might be in the cards and so I saw that as uh as an
6:43opportunity maybe to be part of something really exciting and so uh I
6:49know there are lots of people over the years who have sort of lamented uh I
6:55guess the lack of progress that um was made in terms of
7:00you know getting him in particular to do kind of a more full-throated Embrace of
7:08mmt I don't think that I I don't think I ever had that in mind that you know he
7:15would wrap his arms around this completely different way of thinking and embark on a presidential run it was
7:21never realistic um but what I do think is that over the years what we've seen and and it has
7:28taken a lot of time and it maybe it sort of started with that 2015 decision but
7:34we've all seen I think the the shift in thinking and you mentioned covid and of
7:40course there were um some early remarks from congresswoman ocasio-cortez and even before she was
7:47elected you know I sat down with her I think pavlina sat down with her she and
7:52I did a Facebook live event and we were talking about student debt cancellation and lo and behold you know here we are
7:58today uh with you know maybe this Administration moving toward doing at
8:06least something on that front so I can't remember every part of your question
8:11because uh the ark is is so sweeping but you know there there just have been so
8:18many moments the moment with Congressman um John Yarmouth the chairman of the
8:24house budget committee I think a lot of people probably who are joining today know that he I think went further than
8:31anyone in Congress ever has in terms of very openly embracing the ideas of mmt
8:39and I and I mean he gets it he didn't just sort of understand what it's about he really took the time to read and to
8:47get very conversant to the point uh of being able to go on television and just
8:53hold court for 30 minutes and introduce viewers to mmt in a in a very compelling
9:00and sophisticated way so there's a lot of progress yet to be made but we've
9:05certainly made some good Headway yeah thanks and I think one thing just
9:12to follow up on that is you know the way that you tell that story in those different moments and thank you for mentioning the ocasio-cortez meeting
9:17because I think that's also another pivotal moment is that there are often situations where what you're doing is
9:23not you know in the job description of an economist academic who writes articles and teaches classes there's
9:28there's something going beyond that and if you look at the mmt kind of trajectory going back to those early
9:34conferences with Warren Mosler or even you know the sort of Minsky students in their 80s with Randy and and others
9:42um on one hand uh it was good to have you know financial
9:47support but there are plenty of groups of Scholars that have had financial support on one hand it's good to have
9:52had a Blog early on but there are plenty of groups that have had blogs and on one
9:58hand it's good to you know have some very important insights that the Orthodoxy hasn't hasn't covered but
10:04there's plenty of heterodox economists that have those kinds of insights um so I guess you know just to think
10:11about that story that you're just talking about in the broader trajectory the 2025 year trajectory of mmt
10:17what are the you know are there any ingredients any things you think particularly that that made mmt more
10:22successful than than their breath when you know when it comes to heterodox econ or just you know trying to have an
10:28influence in the public policy debate you know you teach public policy now your your influence is larger than just
10:35one sort of disciplinary stature on that front I'm just curious if there are any things that you think of that we do
10:42things differently and that's why we can sort of explain part of this trajectory
10:47like the secret sauce of how yeah why is it that we somehow managed to get this
10:53moment this time I don't I don't know like why did we break through in a way
10:59that as you just laid out others who had you know a commitment to to writing or some
11:06financial support or whatever it was um what what was it I I don't I don't
11:15know I do think that saying something that captivates people
11:21because it is so different from what they have heard all of their lives and
11:27having this sort of you know Motley Crew of sorts right we didn't come from the
11:34IVs and um we sort of banded together and Amplified one another's voices there
11:42was so much support from within that Core group that early you know on with
11:49Bill Mitchell writing in Australia and with us launching the blog uh in the U.S
11:54and kind of amplifying I know you know we would routinely amplify his work and
12:01um and I think that I've said this before I think that it was really the financial
12:10journalists who took the early interest in our work and for whatever reason a
12:16handful of them willing to to read what we were writing to take it seriously and
12:24um and wrestle with their own understanding of how things work and be open to the possibility that maybe they
12:30didn't have it all right you know in their own in their own heads and then
12:36they started to give us a little bit of a fair hearing and to reference our work
12:41and so but I guess the question is why didn't that happen for other groups Why didn't it happen for let's say other
12:48members of the post-means community who yeah there was there was a con there was an event we had with Scott full Iowa one
12:54of our early modern Money Network events with Dean Baker and he said you know I agree with 98 of what you're all saying
13:00he said it just sounds like Keynes to me but I'm not sure if we'll ever get you know everyone to read their canes he's
13:06and there was something about you know maybe we'll never win that big thing so I'll just do this other stuff in the
13:12meantime and it seems like something about mmt refusing to lose sight of the big win or something at least to me that
13:18seems to be a relevant part yeah and when I say that excites people that's kind of what I I guess I was trying to
13:24get at is that there is an appetite for something that goes beyond the sort of
13:32you know at the margins criticizing and critiquing the system more uh you know
13:39we we could have finding a little win today that just happened to come up and play the next whack-a-mole tomorrow yeah
13:46and I think then here Along Comes this group that tells us we can actually think much bigger and much more boldly
13:54and kind of the shackles come off and you're you're liberated in ways that you
14:01know playing in the in the sandbox of the usual Keynesian like framework doesn't allow you to get
14:10super excited about what the future could look like the possibilities and and and challenging you know people I
14:17think they they have this sense that whether they agree with us or not they
14:23have the sense that you know we're being very honest with them and we're kind of sticking our necks out we certainly
14:29understood that in the early days my old colleague um uh Bill black used to say used to
14:36refer to them as career limiting gestures you know when you do something knowing that it's going to limit
14:43your career possibilities going forward because you say things about the Federal
14:49Reserve and the capacity of monetary policy or you critique things that you know uh
14:55economists and faculty normally would not say these things and we you know
15:01were willing to to sort of say things that I think a lot of others aren't and to be more blunt and more honest and and
15:09I think people respond well to that so I want to sort of flip the question
15:15and you know obviously there's a lot to be be successful there's a lot of sort of reflections of big gambles that paid
15:21off that I think others have things to learn from but obviously we're in our own iterative learning process are there
15:26any moments that really stick out to you both in your journey in the broad mmt Journey that you know as you look back
15:32with the 2020 benefit of hindsight that could have made a really kind of big big difference a positive difference if
15:39they'd gone differently you know things that we could have actually changed or things that could have what are the sort of regrettable forks
15:45in the road any that come to mind obviously don't have to sort of spill tea about others but just we all kind of
15:51think back oftenly we've done something differently here or oh that was a real missed opportunity
15:57I can tell from the question that you actually have uh something in mind here
16:02I'm curious to know what you no I I mean I have I have played in my own life I'm just curious this is I'm just curious
16:09what yours are you know what yours are about there are probably dozens or even a
16:15hundred uh such missed opportunities moments where things could have gone a
16:21little bit differently gosh everyone like I'll tell you one I remember when you called me saying that you're going
16:27to start working for burning and I was really busy at law school and if I wish if I'd just been able to sort of drop other things and know how important I
16:33would have been you know that's one for me personally but I'm just curious if there are any now that you've seen so much of the
16:39the mmt arc well I'm I'm
16:44on my head between and the sort of academic economic side I
16:52I think that one of the things that I always I think is unfortunate and and
16:58regrettable is just the sort of Visions within the
17:03academic broader post Keynesian kind of community and how it would have been so
17:10much more useful and not just post Keynesian I mean we have had issues uh over the years with other
17:17individuals and I I'm not going to say any names but you know these are people that we had good relations with for a
17:23number of years and then for whatever reason they started becoming I get kind
17:30of antagonistic and just you know I I think and I don't understand it I
17:36never have I I don't recall ever going out of my way to read something that
17:42someone in the post Keynesian Community had written and deciding this is the way I'm going to spend my time I don't agree
17:48with everything I just said so I'm gonna spend a lot of time tearing down this other person's work I just would not uh
17:55ever do that and I haven't understood why you know those
18:01relations became so strained with some people with whom we've had very had had
18:06good relations for so many years and it would have been nicer to have that Community kind of hold together and
18:13allow some you know encroachment of new different ideas and
18:19maybe not even always new but just sort of rediscovering some of what was in
18:24Keynes early on or in in a learner or from Minsky or whatever and and allowing
18:30some of that to become part of the the broader post Keynesian Community or
18:36something but for whatever reason uh it didn't happen and I think it it would we
18:41would have been much stronger together but
18:46yeah I got the Feeling sometimes that even when the criticism was never directed to them just the the critique
18:53of how things are done and how it could be done differently that mmt implied almost felt like a personal attack
18:58because they're operating in that old you know Paradigm of not asking for more not asking for bigger that it there was
19:04always some tension of sort of the ambition but um to your point this is this is a
19:10great lead into the next question many many people make the mistake of treating mmt as a sort of hedgehogy school of
19:15thought focused on only knowing you know one big thing oh m t is about deficits mmt is about printing money I mean but
19:23in reality mmt is a foxy Paradigm that is to say it knows lots of little things or at least a a foxy sort of Hedgehog
19:29Paradigm where you ask one big question you know what is money and then the answer takes you across all these
19:34different areas from ancient history to constitutional law to budget and banking to labor to to price and Market Theory
19:42you know in different rooms mmt can be all about the job guarantee or all about the green New Deal and others it's about
19:48critiquing Orthodoxy and monetary policy and all these kinds of things so I guess
19:54my question is you know are there elements or or Dimensions or components
19:59of the broader mmt Paradigm that you think have been given you know have received relatively little or inadequate
20:07attention in in the emerging public narrative about what mmt is any in particular if you could sort of wave a
20:13magic one and increase the volume and and time that they've been getting in the in the discourse that is sort of out
20:20of our control yeah that's the part that's that's tough when you say in the public discourse
20:26because so much of what I think is compelling about mmt
20:33well I don't even know if I want to say that we've always felt like one of the great strengths has been you
20:41know demonstrating that we have put forward I guess a superior understanding
20:47of monetary operations and the mechanics of how things work and that's very hard
20:52to put in front of you know a general public and and get people interested you
20:58know I think it was my first academic publication was all kind of In The Weeds
21:04on that stuff and while I think it it is important and it
21:10helps to show that we actually can articulate there's a reason why we say
21:15for example that um the funds to pay taxes and by
21:21government bonds comes from the prior Act of government spending or lending right you have to get the dollars in
21:28before you can tax them out or drain them off with uh Bond sales and that
21:34comes from understanding the mechanics but when you know for the for the lay public you could just distill That Into
21:41You Know taxes don't Finance government spending or something that's a takeaway
21:47that people can then come away and and feel empowered in a sense to say
21:53governments don't rely on taxpayer money to pay the bills in fact they don't even
22:00use that but they don't have to understand all the plumbing so it's part of the elephant that I think is in
22:06important doesn't get a ton of attention but there's a reason it doesn't it's it's complicated stuff
22:13sorry um you've written everything from you know academic books to journal articles
22:19to op-eds to doing every kind of media interview Under the Sun um how have your sort of priorities in
22:26in the output that you produce the kind of media the focus of the audiences how
22:32that how would you sort of looking back think that's evolved over the years are there any sort of huge differences in in
22:39what you spend your time sort of thinking and worrying about when you when you sort of go out there and make
22:45an impact on the world that the way that you're trying to speak what you're trying to focus on you know who's in
22:51your head do you're speaking to compared to in the past so okay when it comes to how I spend my
23:00time um you're probably know that I I can't say yes I mean I can
23:07only do a fraction of the kind of things that I'm asked to do and I always try to
23:13prioritize students so a couple of days ago I got uh an inquiry from my speaker
23:19Bureau and they said there there's a high school in Oxford that's doing an
23:26event um there's it's just a pro bono like they just want you to to speak at the
23:32event shall I politely decline I said no here should not politely decline these
23:37are the ones that we always say yes to right because the and I said and I told her this is like this is the Future
23:43these are the kids so we always I always do you know make time for a student
23:49who's working on a project and they're in high school and they're writing some senior paper and they've chosen
45:00
しかし、何年もかけて身につけてきた、あるいは集中して取り組んできたスキルセットのようなものは、外部の人にはそれほど明白ではないかもしれませんが、これは非常に重要な証拠です
たとえば、あなたはジョージ・ラコフのフレーミングへの焦点から多大な影響を受けていることはご存知だと思いますが、それがあなたのコミュニケーションにおける効果の非常に重要な部分であることは明らかですが、それ以外のことについては何でも構いません。それらの空間をナビゲートし、政治や公共活動を行うある種の運営担当者であることが何を意味するのかを説明します。
K:
つまり、報道機関が好むのは、彼らに応答し、喜んで話して見積もりを出してくれる人がそこにいるということを知っていて、あなたが試みようとしているかわからない方法で話すことができることです。あなたがいつもどれだけ賢いかをみんなに見せるためです、そして、それは横たわる咳から来ていることはあなたも知っていると思いますが、私は大声で泣くことでいつもラコフのルールに違反しています、私は私の本の最初の章にタイトルを付けました、ああ、やめてください家族のことを考えてみてください。
彼の有名な本のひとつに「象のことを考えるな」というのがありますが、私が象のことを考えないように言った瞬間、あなたは象のことを考えると彼は言いました。だから私は考えるなと言います。家庭のこと、私がやめてと言った瞬間にあなたは家庭のことを考え始めるので、ええと、私は考えませんでした彼が説いていることを正確に実践することはいつもない、そして私はあなたが赤字やすべての通説に取り組んでいることを知っているので、私は通説をそこに置くだけでいくつかの方法で強化していますが、明らかにそれらを打ち破る目的で、ええと、私が見てください。
これまで成功してきたかどうかは言いませんが、私が成功したのは、単にコミュニケーションのスタイルによるものだと思います。同僚の学者や、査読付きジャーナルのようなスペースを対象としていますが、より幅広い聴衆に向けて書くことはそれを行うのがはるかに困難であり、少なくとも私にとってはそれです。これは本当の課題ですが、2009 年にそのブログを立ち上げた当初から、それが目標だったように感じていました。つまり、金融危機と経済破綻があり、私の中には、目標を達成するという非常に切迫感があったのです。声が聞こえ、それは集団的な努力でした、それはマット・フォスタッターでした、それはビル・ブラックでした、それはランディ・レイでした、つまり、これらはカンザスシティのミズーリ大学にいた頃の私の同僚でした、そして私はちょうど人々のところに行って、私がこのブログを始めたらあなたもやってくれるだろうと言いました全員が貢献し、執筆し、政策対応に影響を与え、形成を支援しようと努めることができます。
私たちは議論に参加することができ、独自の方法でここに影響を与えようとすることはできますが、誰もが意見を書かなければならないことを理解していました。読みやすい方法であると同時に、あなたが次のことを行っていることを証明できます。洗練されていて説得力がありますが、ご存じのとおり、メディアがそれを取り上げ始めたのがきっかけでした。
R:
それで、その別の部分についてはすぐにフォローアップしたいと思いますが、それまでの間、うーん、その初期の戦略的成功の 1 つは、インターネットを経由し、伝統的なゲートキーパー、特に 5 つほどのジャーナルがある経済学の分野を迂回したことだったと思います。出版しなければ成功することはなく、それらは非常にイデオロギー的に排他的であり、そしてもちろん今日では、論説や本を書いたり、テレビのドキュメンタリーやその他の番組を制作したりするだけでなく、教育ビデオを制作する人々もいます。ポッドキャスト、チクタク、などなど、特定の形式のメディア エンゲージメントやパブリック エンゲージメントで、あなたがもっと楽しみにしているものはありますか。今後数年間に最も興奮しているもので、より効果的であると感じたもの、またはより多くの見返りがあると感じたものはありますか? 「あなたですか」もっと見ることに興味があります、またはもっと見たいと思っています 私は年をとったと思います、そしてインスタグラムが実際に何であるか知りません、そして、使い方も知りません、そして実際に誰かに尋ねられました今日の早朝、彼らはインスタグラムを立ち上げてビデオか何かを投稿する方法を見つけようとしていたのですが、私は全く分かりませんと言いましたが、私の15歳の娘なら、それらすべてを知っているようにあなたとつながることができると確信しています。私の今の信仰のすべては若者たちにあります。つまり、彼らがニュースを入手して情報を共有し、お互いにコミュニケーションするために最も依存しているコミュニケーションプラットフォームが何であれ、私はそれについて本当に熱心に考えています。私は何世代にもわたるアメリカ人を失望させてきました、そしてアメリカ人だけでなく世界中の人々を失望させてきました、だから私はそうではありません私には何が役立つかわかりません、私が見たそれらのチクタクは、あなたがサポートしている人たちを知っています、とても陽気で面白い、ええと、彼らは何かを教えてくれます、私はそれを行う方法がわかりません、私は年をとったので、それは素晴らしいです、そしてもしそれができるならインスタグラムとかスナップとか、私はこれらのプラットフォームを知りません、ツイッターも私も知っています、それだけです、それでわかっていますが、でも私はエネルギーを見るのが大好きです、創造性が大好きです、私が何年も前によく言っていた、おそらくあなたはこのことを覚えているでしょう。私は本当にリソースのライブラリを作りたかったので、あなたに仕事に必要なお金を知ってもらえたらいいのにとよく言っていましたが、私が想像したのは、7分5分から7分の説明のような一連の短いビデオでした。このライブラリを構築するだけで、やりたかったのですが、スクリプトを作成して記録する方法はわかりますか？やり方がわかりません。私にはビデオなどを編集する才能はありませんが、それでも、それは非常に共有可能なコンテンツがたくさんある分野だと思います。少しの時間と才能のある人ができることを知っています何人かのMMT学者と協力して、ちょっとした一口サイズの解説者やその他の人々が何かをやっていると思うのですが、スティーブン・ヘイルがオーストラリアでフィル・ロングや他の人たちと新しいプロジェクトを立ち上げています、ビル・ミッチェルだと思います」mmt のような教育ツールを使って何かをやったので、人々はさまざまなことを試しています ハンナ・ジャドソン博士とジェシカは今、ええ、それとアンナ、そして私はスペクトラムの反対側で若者のことを考えていると思います、ええと、あなたは次のうちの 1 つを知っていますウォーレン上院議員が人事について話していて気に入ったのは、法曹界について考えると政策が重要であるということです。実際に成功するには多くの問題があります。政策を 1 つ変えるだけではなく、実際には理解する人々を抱えることが重要です。それが正しい位置で物事を行う方法です。規制当局やスタッフォードのことを知っていますか、議会の事務所のことを知っていますか、あるいは間近で見て改革の方法について多くの考えをまとめた CBO のような組織を知っていますが、何か考えや提案、アドバイスはありますか?あなたが知っているMMTのアイデアを政策分野に押し込む、あるいは推進する方法として、権力の殿堂を歩もうとすることに興味があるかもしれない若い人たちに贈ってください。明らかにあなたは上院議員の周りにいたことがあり、どのようにするかを見てきました。彼らはそれらのチームなどを構築しました、ええ、つまり、ワシントン DC にチームがあることは知っていますが、それがキャップであるか、アメリカの進歩の中心であるか、公平な成長のためのワシントンセンターであるかどうかを考えると、その近さが非常に重要であることは明らかですあるいはエピ、地上にスタッフがいるときはわかるだろう、そして、最低賃金やそれが何であれ、研究論文を発表していて、誰かを丘まで走らせると、最新の研究結果をスタッフと共有し、そのスタッフが上司のところへ行き、次に誰かが法案の草案作成に協力していることがわかります。あなたはこれまでにかなりのことをやってきたからこれを知っていますが、上院は奇妙な場所であり、家もそうですが、特に上院は私が思うに、あなたも知っています、ある上院議員が私にこう言ったのを覚えています、これはわかっていますこの場所は21歳の若者によって運営されているようなものです、ええと、若い人たちがメンバーに対して信じられないほどの影響力を持っていることを知っているのは本当です、そしてあなたがスタッフになれるか、スタッフが連絡を取り合える誰かになれたら、そしてええと、あなたは提案されている法案やそれに類するものについてアドバイスを得ることができることを知っています」あなたとはやり遂げた、ああ、それは素晴らしいことだ ただ住むのにお金がかかる場所だ 以前は多くのインターンシップが無給だった それは変わってきたと思うが、インターンとしてのポジションに就くのは決して安いことではない 頑張ってステップアップしてみようええと、でも彼らは、これらのシンクタンクのいくつかから人々を連れ出すのが好きで、ええと、それは一部の人にとってはちょっとした回転ドアのようなものですが、彼らは反対側のカトー、ヘリテージ、AEI、またはその他の機関からも同様にそれを行うでしょう。政策研究シンクタンクは、スタッフがスタッフになることと協力して法案の起草に関与するための良い方法を提供しています。その多くは、ポジションが空いたときに誰を知っていますか、すでに内部にいるスタッフを知っています、空席の名前を提案し、それを基にして質問を 1 つ提案します。これが簡単な質問であることはわかっています。だから答えてよ」私は国家ゲームのようなものをしようとしているわけではありませんが、すべての知的運動は、他の多くの運動と同様に、そのメンバーや指導者たちが、必要な仕事をしている間、どのように食事をし、請求書を支払うのかというこの問題に答えなければなりません。明らかに、学界以外からの外部支援の組み合わせが含まれていますが、初期の頃はある程度ウォーレン・モスレブも含めて、伝統的な学術的任命もそのような種類のものを与えており、少なくとも、他の運動と比べて露出が限られていることを念頭に置いています。私たちと同じ領域にいる他の組織は、私が設立された10年間で、明らかに資金不足であり、この舞台裏で中心的な金融操り人形マスターのようなものを確実に欠如しています。ええと、私も関わってきましたが、これは、これはすべてウォーレンのバンカーのお金のポケットの中にあると描きたい一種の批評家嫌いの両方から思いつくものであるように私には思えます ウォーレンのバンカーのお金、または反対側の単なる挑戦私たちが、ある大学の博士課程や修士課程へのアクセスを失った場合、支援のパイプラインを構築する運動として直面することになります。」知的パイプラインを継続し続けるのは非常に難しいです えっと、何かわかりますか? 最大のハードルは何ですか? 落とし穴は何ですか? 知っていること 成長し、その領域を切り抜けようとしている mmt コミュニティにとっての課題は何ですか?食べることはできますが、その一方で、その方法にはそれぞれ独自の文字列があり、独自の課題と落とし穴があります。つまり、Rec の観点からは、UMKC を必要とするように正しく再作成できなければなりません。またはどの博士課程プログラムでも構いませんが、MMT の場合、誰かが行って博士号を取得できるトレーニングを受けることができる学部は多くありません。ええと、確かな背景があるので、ええと、ウォーレンはそれをやろうとしました、そして、あなたはさまざまな方法で、新しい学校でのPHDプログラムに対する長年のサポートがあったことを知っていると思います、ケンブリッジ大学でのサポートがありました、ええと、そのときフィル・バレスタは、あそこに行くようなプログラムを持っていて、スイスでのサポートがあるかどうかさえ分からない、そしてビル・ミッチェルがニューカッスルやUMKCにいたとき、ウォーレンは本当に寛大だったと思うし、彼もそうだったと思うええと、少なくとも早い段階では、ハーバードのような場所や、彼らがいない場所で人々を見つけるかもしれないことをあなたに知ろうとしていましたお金は必要ありませんが、彼がつながりを作ろうとしていたことは知っています、それで、それは私たちに役立ちました、はい、もちろん、マット・フォーシャッターとランディ・レイ・パブリナが卒業生を始めたので、より高いクラスターを獲得したため、教員を呼び込むのに役立ちましたプログラム 私は最初 1 年間の任命で来ましたが、その後常勤の職になりました。そして、その最盛期には信じられないほどのものを構築することができました。ご存知の通り、世界中から学生が集まりました。私たちは最大規模の博士課程プログラムを持っていました。 UMKC では大規模な修士課程があったと思いますが、レヴィは今ご存知のとおり、修士課程を導入しました。おそらく遠からず博士号も取得できるところまで到達するでしょう。」ウォーレンが資金を提供しているわけではありませんが、それにはお金がかかります。それが現実であり、特にカンザスシティにあるミズーリ大学のような公立大学では、私たちは常に資金に乏しかったのです。ああ、そのような大学がお金を稼げるわけがありませんでした。ランディ・レイのような完全な教授を連れてくるための経済的余裕があることを知っているので、これらを雇用し、このプログラムを構築し、授業料の免除と奨学金を提供します。」博士課程をサポートするにはお金が必要で、学生を惹きつけることができなければなりません。私たちはできる限り最高のものを望んでいたので、彼らを獲得しました。そして今では、パブリナ、フォドル、ヤヴァ、ドリフカ、エリックがいます。モインズ氏やヤン・ラング氏、その他多くの人々がそうだから、ウォーレン氏のような人が来て発言したことを知っているから、私は決して謝るつもりはないが、彼はまったく手を出していなかった、それが多くの寄付者がすることだということはわかっているだろう、フロリダ州立大学のコーク兄弟とは違う来て、お金をあげますと言いましたが、あなたはこれらのことをしなければなりません、そしてたくさんの条件が付いています、ええと、ウォーレンは私たちに何かを建設することを知ってもらいたかったのですが、彼は明らかに完全雇用と物価安定のためのセンターに興味を持っていました。広範な目標は、連邦準備制度の目標です 完全雇用 物価の安定 だから、私はそうではありませんあなたがそこに到達しようとしていたことが十分に伝わったかどうかはわかりませんが、いいえ、それは非常に役に立ったと思います、あなたは私の観点からも、ウォーレンが手を離していることについてあなたが言っていたことを知っていると思います、あなたは実際に違いがあることを知っています共通の利益を共有する人々からの一種の介入なしのサポートと、寄付者主導のフレームワークのようなアイデアです。間違ったことを言うと追い出され、寄付金が引き抜かれる他のグループも見たことがある、私たちと非常に近い人々が追い出されたことはご存知でしょう、ルーズベルト研究所や、党派やワシントンを牽引しなかったことについてはご存知でしょうCenter for Equitable Growth や ined や Things are のようなグループは、彼らが持っているお金の重さによって完全に影響力を押し広げているようなもので、少なくとも私の観点からすると、MMT コミュニティには規律がありません。ロッドはお金に動かされていますが、どういうわけか非常に大きな影響力を持つことができており、それがその方法の1つだと思います。これは非常に創造的で慎重な教材制作を経て実現したのですが、私がよく他の人に言うのは、自分たちの教材に簡単にアクセスできるようにしているすべての団体の中で、希少性について話すのが大好きなオーストリアの学派であり、そのような団体は存在しないということです。フリーランチのようなものは、すべての資料を誰でも利用できるようにするためにわざわざ手を出しています。なぜなら、それはある種の改宗をするときに行うことだからです。mmt の初期の頃は、すべての資料を単一のリポジトリに持つことはおそらく可能でした。そこにあるすべての記事、またはかなり大きな部分に近いあなたが知っているものの研究ですが、それが成長し続け、より拡散しているため、MMTの誤った特徴を広めている人がたくさんいるのではないかと心配しています。」mmt の学問にはサイロ化された側面がたくさんありますが、それがまとまっていません。特定の可能性があると思いますか。課題はありますか。その面で考えたことはありますか。mmt の内容との一貫性をどのように保つか。作品の表面が大きくなる一方で、それが何であるか、そしてある種の人々に知ってもらうことが何を意味するかについて話すことができると決心する人がますます増えています作品本体の境界線に対する誠実さはそうではないと思います大きすぎると思います、大きすぎると思います、そして私はゲートキーパーの人々を選出することについてはあまり考えたくありません、これが誰かが持っているMMT認定であることを証明する方法を考え出そうと長年にわたって提案を聞いてきましたこの隣接する人が何をしているか、またはそこに書いていることを読んでください」誰かがそれを読んで、ああ、それは mmt の一部だと思うかもしれないが、もしそれが上層部から認可されておらず、誰かが承認していないのであれば、それはより広範な mmt 奨学金の一種として歓迎されることはできない、私はそうは思わない私たちにはできるとは思わないし、そうしたいとも思わない 他人がやっていることを「はい、あなたは入っている、あなたは外れている、それは大きすぎるのはわかっている、それは大きすぎる」というようなやり方で取り締まろうとはしたくない現時点では、奨学金に貢献した人やMMTの学者などとみなされる可能性のある知人から大学のコースを受けたことがない人がたくさんいますが、彼らはそこにいてあらゆる種類のものを書いていますそして多分彼らはそれをMMTと呼んでいるのですが、誰が知っていますか、私たちは何をすべきか外に出て、誰が誰であるか全員を追いかけますそこにいる、ただ、それはあまりにも大きくなりすぎているので、私たちにはそれができないと思います、ええと、それは問題ですか、はい、誰かが読むので、それは私にいつも起こります、そして私はそれがあなたにも起こることを知っています誰かが何かを引用し、そしてよく言ってください、これはMです、そして涙がこれを望んでいる、またはmmtがこれを言っています、彼らは私がこれまで聞いたことのない人のことを引用していますが、私には方法がわかりませんあなたがそうしない限り、それが起こるのを止める方法はないと思います何か考えたことはありません いいえ、考えていません、そしてご存知のとおり、共通の価値観や物事を共有する人々ができるだけ同じ声で、複数の名前を付けて話すことができる方法を考えています書類とかいろいろなことについてだけど、私はあなただと思うよ』ある種のキャセロールアプローチや権威主義的境界線の代替案には、あなたが解決しようとしている問題を実際に上回る可能性がある独自の問題があることは知っています、そして確かに私が提案する方法の1つです。これに対処しようとしましたが、それについて何か考えがあるなら、ご存知かと思いますが、MMT とは何かについてよく話しますが、一方では一連の原則であり、他方では、それは一種のレンズまたはフレームワークであり、それから他の問題にも当てはめてください 別のレベルでは、これは人々のグループだと思います それは社会学的なことです それは実践的なコミュニティです ある意味では法律と同じで 弁護士の仕事や法律に関わる人々の仕事ですそうします、そして、ええと、私はそう思います」これは私にとって、アイデアの境界線は何かという難しい質問が、私たちが構築しようとしているコミュニティとは何か、そのコミュニティに誰が歓迎されているかがわかります、私たちが作りたい空間は何なのかという部分に反映されている部分です。人々はあなたもそれを知っているように感じますが、この種の行動は受け入れられないのです。それは知的に問題があるからではなく、あるいはおそらくそうかもしれませんが、私たちは毎日朝起きて誰と一緒に働きたいかを選択しているからであり、あなたが知っているように、次のような人を選ぶことが重要です。私たちがやらないことをやろうとしているわけではない」うーん、同意できないので、おそらく別の種類の続編だと思いますが、mmt コミュニティが一連の価値観や、私たちがコミットできるアイデアを持つことができるような方法があると思いますか？党派的な意味での政治的ではなく、価値ある意味で、自分が誰と協力しているのか、何をしようとしているのかを知っていることを認識する方法であることは明らかですが、トランプ支持者やトランプ支持者であれば、バーニー・サンダースのもとには行かないと思います。もしあなたがそのようなことをしないことを知っているなら、しかし他の方法はありますか? このコミュニティがあるレベルではその価値観に一貫性があると見る他の方法はありますか? はい、私はそう思いますが、別のレベルではいいえ、今は大きすぎます、ローワン、そうですそれ'とても大きいし、より広範なMMTの中でも、より緊密なMMTコミュニティの中でも、他のグループにどうやって自分を適合させるかについて決定を下す人々がいると言うべきですが、それは私を落胆させると思います、そして私はそうではありませんあなたが心を勝ち取ろうとしているときに、それがより大きなコミュニティにとって役立つと思います、そして、ええと、しかし私たちは共有しています、つまり、私たちのベン図が正しければ、私たちは途中で95パーセント重なっていますが、しかしそこにいくつかの重要な部分がありますコミュニティの他のメンバーへの接し方に重要な価値観の違いがあることもありますが、わかりませんサインオンするつもりです、そして私たちは違います、違いがあります、ええと、それは避けられないと思います、私はしません私はそうかもしれない、そうではないかもしれない、あなたの質問には答えていない、いいえ、あなたはそうだと思います、正直に感謝します、そしてそれは簡単な質問だと思います ある種の答えが得られるとは予想していませんでしたそれは満足できません、そして少なくとも私にとっては、オーストラリアの文脈から来ていることはご存知でしょうが、私たちには敵対的な役割を明確に定義した派閥を持つ政党があり、左翼労働者の権利などのレッテルを貼り、あなたには考慮されていない感覚があります。それらはあなたと同じ一部であり、あなたは共通の価値観を知っていますが、そこにはある意味もあります。特定の状況であれ、より大きな敵であり、少なくとも私にとって、この課題の一部のように見えるのは、特定の部屋内で同じ側にいる必要がある、または協力しようとしているより小さな敵が何人必要になるかを計算しようとしているということです特定の日にどの喧嘩が重要かは分からないけど、そうだね、自分がわかっているときに物事を手放すのはとても難しいことのように思うよ」あなたの誰かに会うつもりだ あなたはMMTコミュニティの誰かが何かをしていることを知っているでしょう あなたは彼らが間違っていると思います あなたは彼らに選択肢があると思います その瞬間にあなたにはそれを大々的に見せ物にするか、それともそのまま放置するか知っていますそして、人生の中でもっと大きな心配すべきことを見つけるか、プライベートな言葉を交わすか、つまり、その3つの選択肢があると思いますが、幅広い意見を共有し、知ろうとする共通のコミットメントがあることを理解する必要があると思いますこの努力に身を寄せるのは大変なことだし、もしあなたが100パーセント達成できていないのに、5パーセントの確率で間違いを犯しているとしたら、それを使って大きな成果を上げることは、あなたが知っている価値はないかもしれない、ええと、でもあなたが知っている重要なことの価値観については時々、あなたは正さなければなりません、あなたは介入が必要です、時には誰かに声をかける価値があります。それは本当に問題ですが、多くの場合、多くの場合、多くの些細なことが邪魔をしているだけだと思います。そして、少なくとも私にとって、個人的な価値観を持つ人々と、それらの価値観は実際に mmt コミュニティの方向性に影響を与えていることはご存知のとおり、私たちが現場に来て仕事をしているのであれば、私たちは同じ天気であると言いたいです方向はそこにあり、私に向かっています'特定のコミュニティ、特定のグループがこのコミュニティで歓迎されていると感じられるようにしたいと考えています。他の人がそうしていない場合、私たちは進みたい方向に違いがあり、それが意味があり、私たちがどこに割り当てるかを選択することに意味があることを知っています私たちのリソース、私たちの時間、私たちの注意、そのようなものですが、繰り返しになりますが、記憶という用語自体が境界監視であるというあなたのより広い論点は、よく言うことを超えた非常に非常に大きな一連の二次的な影響を与えると思います。そういう人たちと一緒に働きたくない、私はその人たちのいる施設には入りたくない、でも、そうでないものを定義し始めることは、その意味ではMMTであり、より大きな城や権威主義的な制限効果をもたらす可能性があるが、これに関しては優先順位の問題は、私が考えていることの 1 つです」私は経験しましたこれと闘おうとしてきましたが、去年の終わりか初めに、雇用保証をめぐるかなりの運動の末に我々が勝利を収めた瞬間があったのです、サンダースだけでなく皆さんもご存じでしょうが、大統領選挙陣営の他の人々はそれについて話すことを考えていました ご存知の通り、コリー・ブッカーはそれのバージョンを持っていました ジラ・ブラウンはそれについて話していました そしてヒックやルーパーのような人たちさえもそれに反対していました そしてもちろんバイデンが参加しました多くの点で、彼のチームのメンバーの何人かはMMTのような枠組みの他の側面にオープンで、雇用保証への関心は途中で忘れ去られ、私は秘密裏に緊急現金救済に集中していたのを覚えています。彼らは、より大きな予算への扉を開いたままにしようとして、これらの大きな予算の問題に焦点を当てていました。支出のコミットメント えー、そしてパヴェリナがこの状況の最中に雇用の保証が必要だと言っていたのですが、あなたもそう言っていたのは知っていますが、一部の分野では成功を収めているように見えますが、 a その問題はある意味沈静化してきた感がある、それともあまり注目を集めていない後退の瞬間にあるのか トンネルの終わりに何か緑が光を放っているのが見えるか 何か特定の開口部を知っているかというのは、あなたがいるどの空間で行っている仕事でも、それは振り子が戻る前に一方向に振らなければならないという一種の感覚にすぎないのでしょうか、それとも、私が思うに、そしてオーストラリアではまたしても勢いがあり、オーストラリアの政党はこれを支持し、党の綱領に載せています、ええと、そこで労働党が勝利したばかりです、そして彼らは」多くの締約国のすべての青少年党綱領に雇用保証を設けているので、確かに興味深いものがいくつかあるし、私は緑の党の中でもそう思っているが、経済環境においてはそれがより困難になっていると私は考えているからである。失業率は3.5パーセントあたりで推移しています 雇用プログラムとして何が必要かを人々に考えてもらうためですよね、仕事を探している人の数に対する欠員の数を見てくださいと誰もが言っています。この経済環境ではさらに困難ですが、経済環境はまだ生きていると思いますが、ご存知のとおり、この気候では正義のような運動があり、やらなければならない仕事のすべてについて考えている人々が、私たちがしなければならないことややらなければならないことを仕事にしています迅速かつ大規模に実行し、これを皆さんに知ってもらう一環としてこの移行を行うこと 気候変動に対する世界的な取り組みを皆さんに知ってもらう一環として、雇用の保証を今でも聞いていますが、そのメッセージングやその種のプラットフォームの一部として知っていますが、人々コーリー・ブッカーのように、他の議員も経済環境を考えると、おそらくそれほど危機感を抱いていないと思いますが、それが原因だと思います。」良いフォローアップの質問は、MMTが長い間、低インフレ環境に向けて介入を行ってきたという事実について、あるいは需要に応じて持続的に介入してきたという事実について先ほど話していましたか、そして今、私たちは他の問題に対処しなければならないということです。その一方で、ウォーレン・モーゼスについては私たちはすでに勝利していますが、今は勝利しなければならない新たな問題があります。えと、雇用の保証に関しては、数年前とは異なる懸念が現在あると思いますか?あなたが言ったように、私たちは低失業率にありますが、完全雇用の壁に達する前に、あのようなインフレの上昇も経験しており、人々はよく知っているように、私たちはまだ失業していないと言っています。失業率は2パーセントに達しましたが、今は経済を停止し始める必要があります。失業の種類がそれを実現するためのレバーになるか、それともネイルが轟音を立てて戻ってくるかという問題です。これが方向転換を必要としているという感覚がわかりますか?私たちが焦点を当てているのは雇用保証の擁護活動ですか、それともそれはあなたが知っているだけの問題ですか ここでさまざまな連立利害関係を見つけてください 何かありますか 軸足を変える必要はないと思います 私は彼らがそうだと思います ほとんどの人がそれを信じていないと思います今日は雇用が逼迫しているとは言えませんし、労働市場の逼迫が欲しいと言うときに、ほとんどの人が目指しているのは2パーセントの失業率ではないと思います。ほとんどの人は、現時点で私たちが持っているのはそれだと思っていると思います労働市場は非常に逼迫しており、パウエル議長はそう見ているのはご存知でしょう』FOMCの残りのメンバーがそう見ているのは、ほとんどのエコノミストがおそらく信じていることだ、政治評論家やその他の人々が見ているのは、ここでの欠員の数と求職者の数、したがって非常にタイトな労働市場なので、方向転換は必要ないと思うもうすでに不況の話をしているのはわかっている、これはあなたの言葉だ、誰もが今のことを知っている、今年はそうなるだろうか、来年もそうなるだろうか、深刻な不況になるだろう、何とかなるだろう、v-形はどうなるの? ええと、見たでしょう、IMF の報告書が何週間前に出たかと思いますが、IMF は次の景気後退が起きたら、どうやって経済をどうやっていくかを考え始める必要があると言っています。報告書を知っている場合は政策立案者に回答してもらいたい」これはまさにこの IMF の報告書のことを指しており、我々は中央銀行が次に小切手を発送するのは当然であるべきだと述べています。あなたはほぼ無差別にそうしているだけですが、完全にはそうではありません、ええ、それはポンプ呼び水と呼ばれていると思います、ええ、わかりました、それであなたは人々の手に現金を渡して、誰が取り残されるのかを知っていて、そしてあなたは線を引きたいのですかどこかで、あるいはあなたの資力をテストして、あなたはいくら送金するかを決めて、あなたはたくさんの現金を送金するのですが、それ自体が経済の減速への対応策であることを知るための代替手段として雇用の保証を維持するための入り口だと思います景気後退 ターゲットを絞った失業率の上昇 カウンターシクリカルなターゲットではない失業率の上昇文字通り議会法に依存するのはやめてください、戻ってきて刺激を与えるたびに、一度物事を整えたら、それはそこにあり、支払いは自動的になるでしょう、そしてこの人々がどのようにこれが機能するかを知っているので、私は思いますそれは、他の人が提案しているものの代替としてのみであり、人々がこれらのことを並べて見て、一方がターゲットであり、一方がカウンターシクリカルである、一方がターゲットになっていないと言える限り、それはまだ人々が検討することになるものです議会に頼らず、もう一方は選挙で選ばれていない右派テクノクラートの手に委ねられるだろう。彼らは本質的にどのように財政を運営するか、何が財政政策に相当するかを考えているんだ。誰が得をするのか、誰が得をするのかを有権者に説明する責任も負わずに資力調査を行うのだ。それか'歓迎します。その文脈で議論されている雇用の保証について知っていただければ、今後の状況をどのように強化したいかについて知っていただければ幸いです。次の景気後退が来るので、そのときにどのような政策対応が必要かがわかります。これは良い導入でもあります。私は連邦レベルで政策に影響を与えようとするさまざまな方法について考えています。活動主義などについて話しているわけではありませんが、一方では法律があり、私は明らかにいくつかのことを書いていますそして、その一部でどこまでできるかが正確にわかりました、そしてもう一方ではある種の行政措置があり、今バイデン大統領が学生ローンを免除することで全体の議論が行われています、そしてそれはそれです」さまざまな制約がありますが、MMT の言説でよく出てくるのは、行政の正当性と、ご存知のとおり行動と立法上の正当性との間のダンスにまたがるということです。それは、一方では、このような事柄の一部が国家によって確実に取り戻されるようにしたいということです。私たちは立法府において、適切な利益や適切な枠組みで行動していない特定のテクノクラートにそれを渡しすぎているような気がします。その文脈ではおそらく金融政策がFEDの持つ機関からそれを取り戻すことになるでしょう。ポジティブな社会的価値があると同時に、あたかもあなたであるかのように以前にも書きましたが、歴史があなたの財政状況を振り返ることになるのはご存知だと思いますが、おそらく独立した財政機関が必要だということは、発展の中で非常に重要な瞬間であることはご存知のとおり、同時に、いくつかの財政政策が必要であるという感覚もあります。近年出てきた批判の多くは、MMTも私たちと同じように、すべてを立法措置に落とし込みたいという粗雑な誤解に基づいている。議会では毎週、来週か何かに何をする必要があるかについて投票が行われる予定ですが、この 2 つの勢力が特定の場所でどのように表示されるかはわかりますか?機敏に業務を遂行できる行政機関や行政機関に対して、我々はいつその意思決定の一部を取り返そうとしているのですか、えーっと、あと2種類の言論的な民主党のプロセスに請求しようとしているのですか、わかりません、つまり行政機関が知っているということですかなり広範な権限があり、デイブ・デオンのような人は、噛む政権が大統領令、大統領令、大統領令を通じて実行できることを100個まとめたのは正しいと思います。そうすることを選択した場合、選挙で選ばれた大統領がそれを通じて開始できることはたくさんありますそのオフィス、そして私は自信がありません。」君のことはよく考えているよ、いつ言うべきかはわかってる、それを議会に通したほうがいいのは明らかだけど、それは学生ローンの帳消しをめぐって行われてきた議論の一部だよ、でも、MMTという観点から言えば、選挙で選ばれた役人は有権者に対して説明責任があるのは知ってるよねそして、私たちが現在、議会を通過してホワイトハウスに法案を提出しようとしている方法にはあらゆる種類の問題があり、これらの障壁や議会予算局、そして議員が新しい提案を精査するための予算編成の枠組みがあると述べました。主要法案を精査するのではなく、財政赤字と債務への影響に支出するつもりだ、我々は若者の雇用保証プログラムに50億ドル、あるいは5億ドル、あるいは何であれ2500万ドルを投入したいと考えているのはわかっているだろう。ええと、MMTの特別な予算枠でこれを実行する必要があることを知っていると言うつもりはありませんが、CBOのスコアが戻ってきて歯車が停止して物事を完了できない主要な法案の場合は、赤字が増えすぎたり、バードルールに違反したり、その他の場合が何であれ、それが私がそのプロセスに参入してほしいところであることは知っていると言いました、そして最後の質問だと思います、ええと、あなたは本当のソフトボールを知っています、なぜなら私はたくさんのことを成し遂げてきたからです簡単な質問です。この講演のタイトルは「ここからどこへ行くのか」でした。それで、全体像のようなものはありますか。最後に、広範なコミュニティの学生たちに残したいことはありますか。今後数か月以内にこのビデオを視聴する可能性のある人たちです。ここからどこへ行くのを見たいですか?まだ話していない、あるいは大きな収穫についてだけで、あなたは次のステップについて考えているところです。今年の終わりか数年後、あるいはそのような時期に大きな勝利が得られるとしたらどうなるでしょうか。私にとっては大きな勝利のことです。大きな勝利について話すなら、私にとって大きな勝利は気候変動に対する意味ある行動だ 他に何があるだろう それより大きなことがあるだろう そうすればおそらく 1 万ドルの学生ローンが帳消しになるだろうええと、多くの人はちょうど1万ドルの学生ローンの借金を抱えている人にとっては大きな勝利のように感じるでしょう、でも、私にとって大きな勝利は私たちがそれであるということです。私たちに会いたい場所からはとても遠いですし、学生たちにも、そしてあなたが今言った他の皆さんにも、えー、私たちにはやるべきことがたくさんあり、道のりは長いです。そして、そこに人々がいることは知っています。アンドレス・ベルナルは、ある種の疲れ知らずの人物で、自然の力が候補者たちと協力していることを知っていますし、皆さんの多くも同様だと思いますが、立候補する意欲のある人を見つけることは、選挙で最も難しいことの一つにすぎません。その人はその量の仕事をこなせる』ええと、選挙に立候補するのに非常に熱心に取り組んでいることはご存知でしょう、そして彼は候補者たちと協力して彼らの調子を上げようとしていると私が知っている人です、ええと、ある種の情報を得ました、ええと、私たちは議会でもっと大きな人々の連合を見る必要があります、あなたは誰ですか違う考え方ができることを知っている 2020年にケア法を可決するとき、あるいは2021年3月にアメリカン・レスキュー・プラン法を可決するときが率直にどんな感じだったのか思い出せる 数人の議員と話した 感情的になっていた何人かの議員と話した つまり可決後は完全に感情的だったということだ彼らは、法案が何百万もの人々の生活にどれほどの信じられないほどの影響を与えようとしているかを理解していたからです。その法案のたった1つの条項で、この国のすべての子供たちの40パーセントを貧困から救い出したことを覚えています。彼らは今、それがどのようなものかを知っています。私はそのようなことをすることができ、彼らの多くを知っています財政赤字が優先され、子供たちや地球、その他すべてのことが二の次で、何もする余裕がないと考えていた古き良き時代には決して戻りたくない。予算を大事にしているのはわかっていますし、このインフレが最終的には二歩前進した後に二歩後退するというものではないということを知っていただければと思います。私たちはただ前進し続ける必要があると思います、素晴らしい瞬間です これで終わりにしたいと思います お時間を割いていただきありがとうございました 友人との会話に感謝します コミュニティ内で何が起こっているかについて話し合うことができてとても感謝していますみんなと道を開いてください、そして協力してくれたすべての人に感謝します」ステファニーが言ったように、このカンファレンスのさまざまなイベントに参加し、出席しました。次回は必ず直接開催できるように努めますが、とてもうれしかったです。最新のマネー ネットワークにさらに参加したい場合は、お気軽に参加してください。連絡してください、そうでなければ反対側でお会いしましょう、皆さんありがとう
0:06well thank you so much for joining us Dr Carlton and Rowan here for the fourth annual modern monetary conference we've
0:13had a number of great events over the last eight weeks as Grace said in the chat we'll be posting all of the
0:20previous conference videos to YouTube after we're done here so if you missed any you can go back and catch those
0:25great conversations so to intro um I'm sure everyone is a familiar with
0:33our presenters today but uh Stephanie Kelton is a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University
0:40she's a regular commentator on National radio and broadcast television and she
0:45consults with policy makers investment Banks and portfolio managers across the globe her research expertise is in
0:52Federal Reserve operations fiscal policy Social Security international finance
0:58and employment policy and Ron Gray is a professor of law at Willamette University
1:04so with that I think I'll turn it over to Rowan to get the conversation started
1:09great well thank you very much and once again just a huge shout out to all of the organizers to Hannah and Ashley
1:15Grace everyone on the team uh this online uh conference has taken place
1:22over eight weeks with over 15 different events and it's been incredible to watch
1:27um it all come together so smoothly all the videos will be up afterwards and and what a perfect way to kick off to
1:33conclude the conference with uh you know from Dr Kelton our this discussion that
1:38we're having to to sort of break it up a little bit so I'll have a number of questions as we go along uh feel free to
1:43put your questions in the chat and we'll either get to them at the end or I'll incorporate some of them as we uh go
1:49along but I'll kick us off and you know this is uh titled mmt where do we go from here so I'll kick off with the
1:57question sort of more specifically you Stephanie um there's been a lot of mini arcs in the growth of mmt often
2:03overlapping arcs in different ways one of these asks that tells a particular story is your journey from 2015 into
2:09today but beginning when you started serving on the Senate budget committee through the Bernie's 2016 and 2020
2:15campaigns through the Biden transition the publication of your book the deficit myth through the covert response and and
2:23the influence that you had on the uh the legislative process and now sort of this writing that you're doing in the
2:29inflationary era we find ourselves in and each step the audience reach you know public stature that you have that
2:36mmt has grown significantly uh and has the sort of legitimacy and centrality of
2:41mmt to the public discourse you know once upon a time we got one New York Times article a year was a big deal now
2:47there's half a dozen before before uh May um so can you talk a little bit about
2:52what some of you what you consider to be the the key pivotal moments in in that
2:57particular part of the mmt journey or that particular Arc sort of how they came about how you responded any lessons
3:04that you took from others because it seems to be a pretty important one in the larger history
3:10well okay sure gosh that's a that's a pretty um sweeping Arc that you've um laid out
3:18there Rowan and so first let me just start by saying thank you to you and to
3:23the organizers I wish and I'm so glad that there is you know a record of all
3:29of the past conversations and presentations that have been part of the fourth annual mmt conference I wish that
3:35we were all doing this together in person the way that we did the first few um and I hope that that will happen
3:41again before long uh but I know that you know even virtual events are a pretty
3:48big undertaking it takes a lot of people to pull off something like this and those working behind the scenes and
3:54um you know volunteering their time and and to everyone who's made themselves available to be part of this I'm
4:00grateful because I can go back and listen and watch and catch myself up on
4:05you know uh what you all have have put together thus far and I'm just glad to
4:11be able to join you here at the very tail end so um gosh
4:17you're right that a lot has happened and in a lot of ways it you're I think
4:24you're right to sort of start with that phone call that I got from Senator Sanders back in gosh 2014 I think it was
4:32a couple of weeks before Christmas and you know out of the blue the phone rang one day and it started a
4:39conversation that ultimately led to me taking a leave of absence from the
4:45University and moving away from my family and friends uh in the Midwest and
4:52going out to Washington DC to take the job as the chief Economist for the
4:58Democrats on the U.S Senate budget committee and uh you know that was
5:04definitely one of those moments where when it became public that that this was happening and I can remember the
5:11Articles you know in the Washington examiner and the Kansas City are like there were just a lot of articles
5:17Sanders hires deficit owl like you know sort of headlines like that and people
5:23definitely took notice and I think it um it was unsettling for a lot of people
5:29because they thought uh oh here comes mmt to Washington DC potentially to the
5:36halls of power where you know a new way of thinking about some very big and
5:42important questions about public money the way it works the limitations on
5:48government spending and all the rest of it um might well make their way into a
5:55place like the U.S Senate where they could be a I'll say a disruptive Force
6:00for good where you know lawmakers could if they were willing to engage uh they
6:07they could begin to see the world very differently and uh and I I certainly
6:12hoped that that would be you know what happened as a as a result of me taking a
6:18sort of leap of faith in um making the decision to go there and
6:24and to do that and I will say that you know those early conversations with Senator Sanders while he never mentioned
6:31a presidential run there was enough out there you know you could read about uh
6:36that maybe that might be in the cards and so I saw that as uh as an
6:43opportunity maybe to be part of something really exciting and so uh I
6:49know there are lots of people over the years who have sort of lamented uh I
6:55guess the lack of progress that um was made in terms of
7:00you know getting him in particular to do kind of a more full-throated Embrace of
7:08mmt I don't think that I I don't think I ever had that in mind that you know he
7:15would wrap his arms around this completely different way of thinking and embark on a presidential run it was
7:21never realistic um but what I do think is that over the years what we've seen and and it has
7:28taken a lot of time and it maybe it sort of started with that 2015 decision but
7:34we've all seen I think the the shift in thinking and you mentioned covid and of
7:40course there were um some early remarks from congresswoman ocasio-cortez and even before she was
7:47elected you know I sat down with her I think pavlina sat down with her she and
7:52I did a Facebook live event and we were talking about student debt cancellation and lo and behold you know here we are
7:58today uh with you know maybe this Administration moving toward doing at
8:06least something on that front so I can't remember every part of your question
8:11because uh the ark is is so sweeping but you know there there just have been so
8:18many moments the moment with Congressman um John Yarmouth the chairman of the
8:24house budget committee I think a lot of people probably who are joining today know that he I think went further than
8:31anyone in Congress ever has in terms of very openly embracing the ideas of mmt
8:39and I and I mean he gets it he didn't just sort of understand what it's about he really took the time to read and to
8:47get very conversant to the point uh of being able to go on television and just
8:53hold court for 30 minutes and introduce viewers to mmt in a in a very compelling
9:00and sophisticated way so there's a lot of progress yet to be made but we've
9:05certainly made some good Headway yeah thanks and I think one thing just
9:12to follow up on that is you know the way that you tell that story in those different moments and thank you for mentioning the ocasio-cortez meeting
9:17because I think that's also another pivotal moment is that there are often situations where what you're doing is
9:23not you know in the job description of an economist academic who writes articles and teaches classes there's
9:28there's something going beyond that and if you look at the mmt kind of trajectory going back to those early
9:34conferences with Warren Mosler or even you know the sort of Minsky students in their 80s with Randy and and others
9:42um on one hand uh it was good to have you know financial
9:47support but there are plenty of groups of Scholars that have had financial support on one hand it's good to have
9:52had a Blog early on but there are plenty of groups that have had blogs and on one
9:58hand it's good to you know have some very important insights that the Orthodoxy hasn't hasn't covered but
10:04there's plenty of heterodox economists that have those kinds of insights um so I guess you know just to think
10:11about that story that you're just talking about in the broader trajectory the 2025 year trajectory of mmt
10:17what are the you know are there any ingredients any things you think particularly that that made mmt more
10:22successful than than their breath when you know when it comes to heterodox econ or just you know trying to have an
10:28influence in the public policy debate you know you teach public policy now your your influence is larger than just
10:35one sort of disciplinary stature on that front I'm just curious if there are any things that you think of that we do
10:42things differently and that's why we can sort of explain part of this trajectory
10:47like the secret sauce of how yeah why is it that we somehow managed to get this
10:53moment this time I don't I don't know like why did we break through in a way
10:59that as you just laid out others who had you know a commitment to to writing or some
11:06financial support or whatever it was um what what was it I I don't I don't
11:15know I do think that saying something that captivates people
11:21because it is so different from what they have heard all of their lives and
11:27having this sort of you know Motley Crew of sorts right we didn't come from the
11:34IVs and um we sort of banded together and Amplified one another's voices there
11:42was so much support from within that Core group that early you know on with
11:49Bill Mitchell writing in Australia and with us launching the blog uh in the U.S
11:54and kind of amplifying I know you know we would routinely amplify his work and
12:01um and I think that I've said this before I think that it was really the financial
12:10journalists who took the early interest in our work and for whatever reason a
12:16handful of them willing to to read what we were writing to take it seriously and
12:24um and wrestle with their own understanding of how things work and be open to the possibility that maybe they
12:30didn't have it all right you know in their own in their own heads and then
12:36they started to give us a little bit of a fair hearing and to reference our work
12:41and so but I guess the question is why didn't that happen for other groups Why didn't it happen for let's say other
12:48members of the post-means community who yeah there was there was a con there was an event we had with Scott full Iowa one
12:54of our early modern Money Network events with Dean Baker and he said you know I agree with 98 of what you're all saying
13:00he said it just sounds like Keynes to me but I'm not sure if we'll ever get you know everyone to read their canes he's
13:06and there was something about you know maybe we'll never win that big thing so I'll just do this other stuff in the
13:12meantime and it seems like something about mmt refusing to lose sight of the big win or something at least to me that
13:18seems to be a relevant part yeah and when I say that excites people that's kind of what I I guess I was trying to
13:24get at is that there is an appetite for something that goes beyond the sort of
13:32you know at the margins criticizing and critiquing the system more uh you know
13:39we we could have finding a little win today that just happened to come up and play the next whack-a-mole tomorrow yeah
13:46and I think then here Along Comes this group that tells us we can actually think much bigger and much more boldly
13:54and kind of the shackles come off and you're you're liberated in ways that you
14:01know playing in the in the sandbox of the usual Keynesian like framework doesn't allow you to get
14:10super excited about what the future could look like the possibilities and and and challenging you know people I
14:17think they they have this sense that whether they agree with us or not they
14:23have the sense that you know we're being very honest with them and we're kind of sticking our necks out we certainly
14:29understood that in the early days my old colleague um uh Bill black used to say used to
14:36refer to them as career limiting gestures you know when you do something knowing that it's going to limit
14:43your career possibilities going forward because you say things about the Federal
14:49Reserve and the capacity of monetary policy or you critique things that you know uh
14:55economists and faculty normally would not say these things and we you know
15:01were willing to to sort of say things that I think a lot of others aren't and to be more blunt and more honest and and
15:09I think people respond well to that so I want to sort of flip the question
15:15and you know obviously there's a lot to be be successful there's a lot of sort of reflections of big gambles that paid
15:21off that I think others have things to learn from but obviously we're in our own iterative learning process are there
15:26any moments that really stick out to you both in your journey in the broad mmt Journey that you know as you look back
15:32with the 2020 benefit of hindsight that could have made a really kind of big big difference a positive difference if
15:39they'd gone differently you know things that we could have actually changed or things that could have what are the sort of regrettable forks
15:45in the road any that come to mind obviously don't have to sort of spill tea about others but just we all kind of
15:51think back oftenly we've done something differently here or oh that was a real missed opportunity
15:57I can tell from the question that you actually have uh something in mind here
16:02I'm curious to know what you no I I mean I have I have played in my own life I'm just curious this is I'm just curious
16:09what yours are you know what yours are about there are probably dozens or even a
16:15hundred uh such missed opportunities moments where things could have gone a
16:21little bit differently gosh everyone like I'll tell you one I remember when you called me saying that you're going
16:27to start working for burning and I was really busy at law school and if I wish if I'd just been able to sort of drop other things and know how important I
16:33would have been you know that's one for me personally but I'm just curious if there are any now that you've seen so much of the
16:39the mmt arc well I'm I'm
16:44on my head between and the sort of academic economic side I
16:52I think that one of the things that I always I think is unfortunate and and
16:58regrettable is just the sort of Visions within the
17:03academic broader post Keynesian kind of community and how it would have been so
17:10much more useful and not just post Keynesian I mean we have had issues uh over the years with other
17:17individuals and I I'm not going to say any names but you know these are people that we had good relations with for a
17:23number of years and then for whatever reason they started becoming I get kind
17:30of antagonistic and just you know I I think and I don't understand it I
17:36never have I I don't recall ever going out of my way to read something that
17:42someone in the post Keynesian Community had written and deciding this is the way I'm going to spend my time I don't agree
17:48with everything I just said so I'm gonna spend a lot of time tearing down this other person's work I just would not uh
17:55ever do that and I haven't understood why you know those
18:01relations became so strained with some people with whom we've had very had had
18:06good relations for so many years and it would have been nicer to have that Community kind of hold together and
18:13allow some you know encroachment of new different ideas and
18:19maybe not even always new but just sort of rediscovering some of what was in
18:24Keynes early on or in in a learner or from Minsky or whatever and and allowing
18:30some of that to become part of the the broader post Keynesian Community or
18:36something but for whatever reason uh it didn't happen and I think it it would we
18:41would have been much stronger together but
18:46yeah I got the Feeling sometimes that even when the criticism was never directed to them just the the critique
18:53of how things are done and how it could be done differently that mmt implied almost felt like a personal attack
18:58because they're operating in that old you know Paradigm of not asking for more not asking for bigger that it there was
19:04always some tension of sort of the ambition but um to your point this is this is a
19:10great lead into the next question many many people make the mistake of treating mmt as a sort of hedgehogy school of
19:15thought focused on only knowing you know one big thing oh m t is about deficits mmt is about printing money I mean but
19:23in reality mmt is a foxy Paradigm that is to say it knows lots of little things or at least a a foxy sort of Hedgehog
19:29Paradigm where you ask one big question you know what is money and then the answer takes you across all these
19:34different areas from ancient history to constitutional law to budget and banking to labor to to price and Market Theory
19:42you know in different rooms mmt can be all about the job guarantee or all about the green New Deal and others it's about
19:48critiquing Orthodoxy and monetary policy and all these kinds of things so I guess
19:54my question is you know are there elements or or Dimensions or components
19:59of the broader mmt Paradigm that you think have been given you know have received relatively little or inadequate
20:07attention in in the emerging public narrative about what mmt is any in particular if you could sort of wave a
20:13magic one and increase the volume and and time that they've been getting in the in the discourse that is sort of out
20:20of our control yeah that's the part that's that's tough when you say in the public discourse
20:26because so much of what I think is compelling about mmt
20:33well I don't even know if I want to say that we've always felt like one of the great strengths has been you
20:41know demonstrating that we have put forward I guess a superior understanding
20:47of monetary operations and the mechanics of how things work and that's very hard
20:52to put in front of you know a general public and and get people interested you
20:58know I think it was my first academic publication was all kind of In The Weeds
21:04on that stuff and while I think it it is important and it
21:10helps to show that we actually can articulate there's a reason why we say
21:15for example that um the funds to pay taxes and by
21:21government bonds comes from the prior Act of government spending or lending right you have to get the dollars in
21:28before you can tax them out or drain them off with uh Bond sales and that
21:34comes from understanding the mechanics but when you know for the for the lay public you could just distill That Into
21:41You Know taxes don't Finance government spending or something that's a takeaway
21:47that people can then come away and and feel empowered in a sense to say
21:53governments don't rely on taxpayer money to pay the bills in fact they don't even
22:00use that but they don't have to understand all the plumbing so it's part of the elephant that I think is in
22:06important doesn't get a ton of attention but there's a reason it doesn't it's it's complicated stuff
22:13sorry um you've written everything from you know academic books to journal articles
22:19to op-eds to doing every kind of media interview Under the Sun um how have your sort of priorities in
22:26in the output that you produce the kind of media the focus of the audiences how
22:32that how would you sort of looking back think that's evolved over the years are there any sort of huge differences in in
22:39what you spend your time sort of thinking and worrying about when you when you sort of go out there and make
22:45an impact on the world that the way that you're trying to speak what you're trying to focus on you know who's in
22:51your head do you're speaking to compared to in the past so okay when it comes to how I spend my
23:00time um you're probably know that I I can't say yes I mean I can
23:07only do a fraction of the kind of things that I'm asked to do and I always try to
23:13prioritize students so a couple of days ago I got uh an inquiry from my speaker
23:19Bureau and they said there there's a high school in Oxford that's doing an
23:26event um there's it's just a pro bono like they just want you to to speak at the
23:32event shall I politely decline I said no here should not politely decline these
23:37are the ones that we always say yes to right because the and I said and I told her this is like this is the Future
23:43these are the kids so we always I always do you know make time for a student
23:49who's working on a project and they're in high school and they're writing some senior paper and they've chosen
the job
23:56guarantee or mmt or something like that can you zoom with me can I interview you
24:01can I oh so students go right to the top of the list always uh for me and then
24:09mostly you know my sifter is I'm not that interested in preaching to the
24:15choir so I don't really look for uh podcasts or media opportunities or or
24:21speaking opportunities where I'm gonna walk in to a super friendly group and
24:27lay out mmt or or whatever um I don't see a lot of
24:32um purpose a useful purpose in doing that so I like to walk into the lion's den I
24:38like to go where I think the audience is predisposed to disagree with virtually everything that I understand and and am
24:46going to argue and then put put the case forward so I've done a
24:52number of podcasts with you know Bitcoin I got an invitation we are the largest
24:58podcast on bitcoin we have more listeners anyone else okay fine I did that uh I went on with Anthony
25:05scaramucci a couple of times because I know that I'm gonna be reaching audiences who aren't already hearing
25:12this kind of stuff so I like to do that uh and and kind of just like I added like
25:20for people who may be interested in getting into sort of mmt academic work scholarship writing
25:27um who may not have the the opportunity to have 25 different you know invitations to sift between but they
25:34might not know certain audiences or ones that would be receptive or kind of not intuitively think that's a place that we
25:40could could have an impact so are there any audiences that you sort of have
25:46access to now that you find are sort of very valuable ones that you would not have thought of 15 20 years ago going
25:53into Academia that they might be the kind of people you're speaking to um
25:58what do you mean very valuable internal well just just productive groups that you think are kind of uh receptive or
26:06have an interest or an ability to kind of pick it up because of what they do for example I know you've spoken to a lot of financial planners and it seems
26:12like that's a group that cares because they actually have fiduciary responsibilities to people with their
26:18money um and I'm not sure maybe maybe you would have but I wouldn't have guessed getting into this that that was an
26:24audience that would really want to have you know an appetite to get this right I'm just curious if there are any others
26:30that come to you yeah no that's the thing about financial groups they
26:36you know it might it might not sound true but I believe that it it is they
26:44really don't care about much other than getting it right so if
26:50they think that somebody has a superior framework understanding of mechanics if
26:56if their belief is in the quantity theory of money M go up P go up you know
27:01and they're placing Financial Bets with the belief that all they have to do is
27:08look at the you know M2 and they're going to learn something important about
27:13where inflation is headed in the future or they look at the deficit and they think this is going to uh necessarily
27:19give them insight into where interest rates must move in the future and they're making you know they're taking
27:25Financial positions and then they're wrong they want to know how to not be
27:30wrong and so um I know they they may not agree that
27:36uh a job guarantee is a a useful
27:42stabilizer uh or um you know support it for so social and
27:48moral reasons or whatever but there's enough in there that audiences like that
27:54have been super receptive to mmt over the years and then there are tons of
27:59other groups that you wouldn't think maybe would have you know much of an
28:05interest in understanding you know core mmt tenants but they do
28:10like you know the the Bricklayers Union you know he speaks to a huge group of members or Auto
28:19Executives and Engineers last year I went out and did a big talk in West
28:24Virginia for you know these groups but they understand why it really does
28:29matter because you know they understand that if the policy response is weak and
28:35the economy is weak then sales are weak and their own Industries uh suffer as a
28:42consequence so whatever gets better public policy in place and a better
28:47economy with broader Prosperity people can go out and buy these cars or whatever it is they're sympathetic to
28:54different ways of thinking they're not dogmatic and part of that obviously is as you
29:01said having having something to say that's relevant to either General Prosperity or issues that particularly
29:07affect those groups I I'm curious if there's anything you know if you had 10
29:12hungry PhD students saying give us you know topic ideas you know where are the places that we can really expand the
29:19Paradigm I add value you know flesh things out further take ideas and run with them in new contexts are there any
29:25things that come to your mind if you had a 10 clones of yourself to do research
29:31in addition to all the other things that you would be trying to to focus on obviously you've got your book coming up
29:36but after are there other areas that you could see wanting to get involved to to sort of
29:41start digging into sure 10 clones of Nathan tankus uh do
29:47you know what I mean like there there is obviously a a big need for I think more
29:55sophisticated work on price Theory and pricing um inflation management
30:03uh automatic stabilizers tax policy I
30:08mean there's there are so many areas where if I had 10 PhD students
30:16um and a and a thriving doctoral program boy there's more than enough ways for
30:22people to contribute to the um you know broader
30:28scholarly project around mmt your work I
30:33mean let's be you know I will be honest it took me a little while I knew that
30:39you were right but I didn't really know why you were right early on because it was years early and you were into this
30:47you know digital currency and I kept saying temperature oh don't isn't the dollar digital like I it took me a
30:53little while to understand what you were doing with your own
30:59research and it's I don't know if you want to say it's mmt it's mmt adjacent yeah as much as mmt will claim
31:06it yeah I consider it in the tradition I definitely will it I think that fills a
31:12huge void and you know because if it's about the monetary system that the
31:17monetary system isn't just this narrow public money reserves and currency sort
31:23of right I mean that's and I understand now how could you how could you have missed that when it's the thing that
31:32um policymakers the world over are so focused on right now is clearly
31:37important and you have you know what years of scholarship in this area
31:43already so I think that that's not going away that's another huge area
31:49um monetary policy I don't think monetary policy five years from now is going to look anything like what we have
31:56today yeah it's it's you can feel the you can feel it in flux
32:02um and and you know to to your credit internment he's credit one of the things that really I appreciated from an early
32:07eight days was that it is evolutionary there is this sort of integrating of new
32:13components adding uh deepening parts of the Paradigm and also looking at what's going on in the world and trying to stay
32:20relevant to those issues so I remember when we were talking about setting up the first mmt conference lineup and
32:26you're saying do you have any ideas for Keynotes and I said this guy Brett Scott has been doing this amazing work around
32:31you know the war on cash and you said oh I was on a paddle with him absolutely let's do it so even if you hadn't
32:36understood it we were already leaning in and that was 2016 to the fights that are now becoming Central because I think
32:44part of the skill is always sort of having having your nose to the grindstone or to the to the street and
32:49seeing what's coming around the corner um but on that front you know one of the notable things I think that's
32:55accompanied the growth in in popularity of mmt has been watching the different sort of layers or faces of MNT gain
33:02salience in different contexts and across different audiences right for some people it's sort of found a
33:07reception amongst the organizing left for some it's the political and the media Elite you know the financial
33:13journalists the elected officials and and in many places it's all across the academy different disciplines law
33:20Humanities accounting finance and that's before you get to the business community and and all of that kind of thing
33:27um but if you ask about each of them they might they might not think that mmt is more affiliated with with those other
33:33groups than their own you know well mmt is a kind of they're one of us they're leftists or they're one of us they're
33:39Financial experts or something uh and and it gets a little bit disassociative to have these different
33:45identities in different rooms that probably can't ever be fully reconciled so I guess I was just curious if you
33:52know you've got any sort of insights or Reflections on how you've navigated being so many different things to
33:59different people and and how that tension sort of plays out in your own you know professional Identity or
34:06professional action I mean look I I think I'm a pretty open
34:11book I um I was Bernie Sanders Chief Economist
34:17there you know uh I I hard to hide from it right I wear that very proudly I am a
34:23progressive I um I think that anybody who invites me to speak at an event has
34:29that in the bio in the introduction there's no uh effort on my part to try
34:36to duck that I'm proud of it I'm proud of the work that I did I'm proud of him
34:41um and so you know I I go in and maybe you know of
34:48course you you go in to speak in front of an audience and you make emphasize
34:54different things in front of different audiences um but you don't
35:00I don't I don't try to hide anything I don't pull any punches I am there you
35:05know the funny thing is I I mentioned the bricklayers and I mentioned West Virginia I went I flew from Chicago to
35:13West Virginia and I gave exactly the same set of remarks I'd change a word uh
35:19I mean you know like same slides and whatever comes out of my mouth but it's basically it was the same talk because
35:26they were back to back and here is one right a union group and I go in and I do my thing in front of the Union group and
35:33then two or three days later I'm in front of Auto Executives and I mean CEOs CFOs
35:40um you know Engineers that that was a very different audience I gave exactly the same talk and I got the same
35:46reception in both places just overwhelmingly positive uh response from
35:52from audiences so uh do you get any shock of people people thinking I didn't
35:58expect to agree so much with a birdie person or you know I didn't expect to find this so insightful I'm just curious
36:04because to me often those those are spaces where you would think that people would immediately discount one other one
36:10so it's less I was trying to imply that you were being kind of duplicitous more just these are spaces where people are
36:16not expecting to find any cross-pollination and it happens all the
36:22time so you know I was telling Paul my husband who popped his head in a few minutes ago
36:28um when I was in Brussels last month I'm sitting in front of this you know huge
36:34audience and we did like a little fireside chat so it's sort of like what we're doing you know where I just got
36:40questions from uh top financial analyst uh major financial institution and he's
36:48asking these questions and I'm answering and answering and he you know it was clear that he started off with the
36:55impression that mmt was this and then when he got the answers from me he was
37:01learning that he didn't have a very good understanding of what mmt was really
37:06about and so I'm giving him responses and at one point he said huh well if
37:12that's mmt then I I think I'm in agreement and I responded by saying
37:17that's because it's very sensible and then the audience laughed and it was just kind of a light moment where uh to
37:24your point do people find that they didn't think they were going to end up
37:30in agreement and lo and behold there's there's a whole lot more there that they
37:36find not just acceptable but it almost becomes how could we not be thinking
37:43along these lines you know why would we not do these things so
37:48yeah it happens all the time I mean and it seems to me one of the interesting things about this is there are often
37:54contexts where to be effective as a as a leftist or to be effectively left economic theory the
38:01assumption is that there's only certain audiences that are worth speaking to but what it seems to me is that part of the
38:06strength is by getting if not complete buy-in you know grudging respect or
38:13validation from the financial journalist Community from you know practitioners
38:18Etc it's allowed mmt to have a legitimacy that you know storming the
38:24barricades with the marxian flag alone would not have ever you know gotten to
38:30this many people gotten into this many spaces so I'm I'm just curious when you sort of think about the the political
38:38goals or the goals of actually making the world a better place and sort of the way an intellectual Paradigm cuts across
38:46different organizing strategies or tactics and things you know is there any sense in
38:52which you you have to sort of balance or think about you know I'm doing this for
38:57a reason I'm getting up every day to make the world better that's why I'm doing this and then this is going to
39:02take me pretty far out into these spaces to do this but there's it all comes back it all has a reason you know um is there
39:10any kind of way that you you approach that or the others that you know if you had any advice for people trying to
39:15navigate that tension because I can say from my personal experience the stuff that I'm doing right now for example
39:20with digital cash is forcing me to get into rooms with a lot of companies who
39:26are making the technology because if we don't have the technology in existence the public policy can't say we should
39:32adopt it and I thought I'd never be the kind of person to be working with with companies and Industry and products
39:39but that's where the work has taken me and that's what needs to happen to to
39:44have this policy influence and you know not not to say that there's Shades of Gray there but just that there's a it's
39:51hard to explain all of those steps to people on the outside other than just to sort of follow what you're doing so I'm
39:57just curious if there's anything any thoughts or Reflections or you might have on that kind of dynamic
40:04I just think you're happy to be willing to say yes a lot uh and to a lot of
40:10things that you might not see the value in or the the way that you know it's
40:16going to position for the next part of the puzzle piece to to fit
40:21um but like you saying yes to some of these things you understand that with
40:26the end goal being where it is you're going to have to pass through some of these other
40:33um go through some of these other motions to get to the ultimate uh end point so uh I think you know I I guess I
40:43just try to do that as much as possible you know I say yes to groups not thinking how is this yes going to help
40:50me you know but it's just sometimes you don't see a clear
40:56benefit to everything but just you try to say yes in in not the usual way
41:03that's the thing I think that a lot of academics and I understand that they're not comfortable because I try to say I
41:10can't do this interview but you should call so and so or I can give you three names or something some people don't
41:15want to do press they're not comfortable talking to journalists they don't want
41:21to be on TV or radio and um and I understand that but it uh those
41:28are the kinds of things that just help that forward momentum that keep you moving forward meet with groups take
41:35time out when somebody reaches out and says I'm interested in the work that you do but I don't understand this little
41:42part of it if you can respond with an email and something you know just it's
41:48over what it can be overwhelming and it's exhausting and I understand you know we can't we can't all just be 24 7
41:56pushing forward but I think saying yes to as much as possible
42:01I mean that was something that I noticed very early on was that this of all the groups of Scholars I would always get
42:06emails back directly it would always be yes how can I help there was a sense in which you know it movement building
42:13begins with that kind of one-on-one support but I guess at the same time you know there are only so many hours in the
42:19day and I guess part of you know prioritization is also saying no we're moving on so I guess one question I had
42:24about that is are there any issues or intellectual arguments that you think mmt is sort of ready to declare Victory
42:31on or can can turn the page on or maybe can you know doesn't need to devote as much advocacy effort towards as a as a
42:38priority versus others are there things that you would sort of rebalance our
42:44Focus towards now at this stage in the game that might be different from earlier stages
42:52well I think it has to be inflation right I mean Warren Mosler used to
42:57always say um and this goes back 20 some years you know Warren would say once you get them
43:03arguing about inflation you've already won that was kind of his line and he would say that because we weren't at the
43:10stage where we were arguing about whether something was going to be inflationary or not we were back in the
43:17stage where we were arguing about the impact on the deficit or the dead and
43:23the sustainability and tipping points or Ratio or you know running out of money
43:29turning into Greece all those sort of things and now I mean you're
43:35hard-pressed to find even someone at AEI right who will push back on the argument
43:43that the government can't afford to do XYZ Medicare whatever so we're at the
43:50inflation is the relevant constraint and I think at least there
43:56it's it's a place I might be comfortable saying you know planting a a flag of
44:03some kind and saying you know we seem to have won that part of the debate but the
44:10inflation piece is is obviously where we are today and there isn't an easy answer
44:16to that one and and that's the next Battlefront I think
44:24and going back to one of your earlier comments you said one of the strengths of mmt was it sort of operational
44:30strengths the kind of focus on the financial operations the sophisticated technical understanding and I would say
44:37you know what I one of the things that myself and Raul Carrillo and others tried to do was bring the legal
44:42technicalities to the table and add that along with the accounting and and with the Central Banking operations and the
44:48finance but I was thinking you know with your work in the Senate and then with all of this media I'd say there's
44:55another set of layers of technical or operational competency there of how to manage media relationships or what goes
45:02on behind the you know the doors in in you know in the legislature in Congress
45:07and I just I'd be curious if if there are any other sort of technical competencies that we wouldn't think of
45:13technical in the same way as we think of accounting but sort of skill sets that you think you've either picked up or
45:18focused on over the years that might be not as obvious to people on the outside bit of proof very important
23:56guarantee or mmt or something like that can you zoom with me can I interview you
24:01can I oh so students go right to the top of the list always uh for me and then
24:09mostly you know my sifter is I'm not that interested in preaching to the
24:15choir so I don't really look for uh podcasts or media opportunities or or
24:21speaking opportunities where I'm gonna walk in to a super friendly group and
24:27lay out mmt or or whatever um I don't see a lot of
24:32um purpose a useful purpose in doing that so I like to walk into the lion's den I
24:38like to go where I think the audience is predisposed to disagree with virtually everything that I understand and and am
24:46going to argue and then put put the case forward so I've done a
24:52number of podcasts with you know Bitcoin I got an invitation we are the largest
24:58podcast on bitcoin we have more listeners anyone else okay fine I did that uh I went on with Anthony
25:05scaramucci a couple of times because I know that I'm gonna be reaching audiences who aren't already hearing
25:12this kind of stuff so I like to do that uh and and kind of just like I added like
25:20for people who may be interested in getting into sort of mmt academic work scholarship writing
25:27um who may not have the the opportunity to have 25 different you know invitations to sift between but they
25:34might not know certain audiences or ones that would be receptive or kind of not intuitively think that's a place that we
25:40could could have an impact so are there any audiences that you sort of have
25:46access to now that you find are sort of very valuable ones that you would not have thought of 15 20 years ago going
25:53into Academia that they might be the kind of people you're speaking to um
25:58what do you mean very valuable internal well just just productive groups that you think are kind of uh receptive or
26:06have an interest or an ability to kind of pick it up because of what they do for example I know you've spoken to a lot of financial planners and it seems
26:12like that's a group that cares because they actually have fiduciary responsibilities to people with their
26:18money um and I'm not sure maybe maybe you would have but I wouldn't have guessed getting into this that that was an
26:24audience that would really want to have you know an appetite to get this right I'm just curious if there are any others
26:30that come to you yeah no that's the thing about financial groups they
26:36you know it might it might not sound true but I believe that it it is they
26:44really don't care about much other than getting it right so if
26:50they think that somebody has a superior framework understanding of mechanics if
26:56if their belief is in the quantity theory of money M go up P go up you know
27:01and they're placing Financial Bets with the belief that all they have to do is
27:08look at the you know M2 and they're going to learn something important about
27:13where inflation is headed in the future or they look at the deficit and they think this is going to uh necessarily
27:19give them insight into where interest rates must move in the future and they're making you know they're taking
27:25Financial positions and then they're wrong they want to know how to not be
27:30wrong and so um I know they they may not agree that
27:36uh a job guarantee is a a useful
27:42stabilizer uh or um you know support it for so social and
27:48moral reasons or whatever but there's enough in there that audiences like that
27:54have been super receptive to mmt over the years and then there are tons of
27:59other groups that you wouldn't think maybe would have you know much of an
28:05interest in understanding you know core mmt tenants but they do
28:10like you know the the Bricklayers Union you know he speaks to a huge group of members or Auto
28:19Executives and Engineers last year I went out and did a big talk in West
28:24Virginia for you know these groups but they understand why it really does
28:29matter because you know they understand that if the policy response is weak and
28:35the economy is weak then sales are weak and their own Industries uh suffer as a
28:42consequence so whatever gets better public policy in place and a better
28:47economy with broader Prosperity people can go out and buy these cars or whatever it is they're sympathetic to
28:54different ways of thinking they're not dogmatic and part of that obviously is as you
29:01said having having something to say that's relevant to either General Prosperity or issues that particularly
29:07affect those groups I I'm curious if there's anything you know if you had 10
29:12hungry PhD students saying give us you know topic ideas you know where are the places that we can really expand the
29:19Paradigm I add value you know flesh things out further take ideas and run with them in new contexts are there any
29:25things that come to your mind if you had a 10 clones of yourself to do research
29:31in addition to all the other things that you would be trying to to focus on obviously you've got your book coming up
29:36but after are there other areas that you could see wanting to get involved to to sort of
29:41start digging into sure 10 clones of Nathan tankus uh do
29:47you know what I mean like there there is obviously a a big need for I think more
29:55sophisticated work on price Theory and pricing um inflation management
30:03uh automatic stabilizers tax policy I
30:08mean there's there are so many areas where if I had 10 PhD students
30:16um and a and a thriving doctoral program boy there's more than enough ways for
30:22people to contribute to the um you know broader
30:28scholarly project around mmt your work I
30:33mean let's be you know I will be honest it took me a little while I knew that
30:39you were right but I didn't really know why you were right early on because it was years early and you were into this
30:47you know digital currency and I kept saying temperature oh don't isn't the dollar digital like I it took me a
30:53little while to understand what you were doing with your own
30:59research and it's I don't know if you want to say it's mmt it's mmt adjacent yeah as much as mmt will claim
31:06it yeah I consider it in the tradition I definitely will it I think that fills a
31:12huge void and you know because if it's about the monetary system that the
31:17monetary system isn't just this narrow public money reserves and currency sort
31:23of right I mean that's and I understand now how could you how could you have missed that when it's the thing that
31:32um policymakers the world over are so focused on right now is clearly
31:37important and you have you know what years of scholarship in this area
31:43already so I think that that's not going away that's another huge area
31:49um monetary policy I don't think monetary policy five years from now is going to look anything like what we have
31:56today yeah it's it's you can feel the you can feel it in flux
32:02um and and you know to to your credit internment he's credit one of the things that really I appreciated from an early
32:07eight days was that it is evolutionary there is this sort of integrating of new
32:13components adding uh deepening parts of the Paradigm and also looking at what's going on in the world and trying to stay
32:20relevant to those issues so I remember when we were talking about setting up the first mmt conference lineup and
32:26you're saying do you have any ideas for Keynotes and I said this guy Brett Scott has been doing this amazing work around
32:31you know the war on cash and you said oh I was on a paddle with him absolutely let's do it so even if you hadn't
32:36understood it we were already leaning in and that was 2016 to the fights that are now becoming Central because I think
32:44part of the skill is always sort of having having your nose to the grindstone or to the to the street and
32:49seeing what's coming around the corner um but on that front you know one of the notable things I think that's
32:55accompanied the growth in in popularity of mmt has been watching the different sort of layers or faces of MNT gain
33:02salience in different contexts and across different audiences right for some people it's sort of found a
33:07reception amongst the organizing left for some it's the political and the media Elite you know the financial
33:13journalists the elected officials and and in many places it's all across the academy different disciplines law
33:20Humanities accounting finance and that's before you get to the business community and and all of that kind of thing
33:27um but if you ask about each of them they might they might not think that mmt is more affiliated with with those other
33:33groups than their own you know well mmt is a kind of they're one of us they're leftists or they're one of us they're
33:39Financial experts or something uh and and it gets a little bit disassociative to have these different
33:45identities in different rooms that probably can't ever be fully reconciled so I guess I was just curious if you
33:52know you've got any sort of insights or Reflections on how you've navigated being so many different things to
33:59different people and and how that tension sort of plays out in your own you know professional Identity or
34:06professional action I mean look I I think I'm a pretty open
34:11book I um I was Bernie Sanders Chief Economist
34:17there you know uh I I hard to hide from it right I wear that very proudly I am a
34:23progressive I um I think that anybody who invites me to speak at an event has
34:29that in the bio in the introduction there's no uh effort on my part to try
34:36to duck that I'm proud of it I'm proud of the work that I did I'm proud of him
34:41um and so you know I I go in and maybe you know of
34:48course you you go in to speak in front of an audience and you make emphasize
34:54different things in front of different audiences um but you don't
35:00I don't I don't try to hide anything I don't pull any punches I am there you
35:05know the funny thing is I I mentioned the bricklayers and I mentioned West Virginia I went I flew from Chicago to
35:13West Virginia and I gave exactly the same set of remarks I'd change a word uh
35:19I mean you know like same slides and whatever comes out of my mouth but it's basically it was the same talk because
35:26they were back to back and here is one right a union group and I go in and I do my thing in front of the Union group and
35:33then two or three days later I'm in front of Auto Executives and I mean CEOs CFOs
35:40um you know Engineers that that was a very different audience I gave exactly the same talk and I got the same
35:46reception in both places just overwhelmingly positive uh response from
35:52from audiences so uh do you get any shock of people people thinking I didn't
35:58expect to agree so much with a birdie person or you know I didn't expect to find this so insightful I'm just curious
36:04because to me often those those are spaces where you would think that people would immediately discount one other one
36:10so it's less I was trying to imply that you were being kind of duplicitous more just these are spaces where people are
36:16not expecting to find any cross-pollination and it happens all the
36:22time so you know I was telling Paul my husband who popped his head in a few minutes ago
36:28um when I was in Brussels last month I'm sitting in front of this you know huge
36:34audience and we did like a little fireside chat so it's sort of like what we're doing you know where I just got
36:40questions from uh top financial analyst uh major financial institution and he's
36:48asking these questions and I'm answering and answering and he you know it was clear that he started off with the
36:55impression that mmt was this and then when he got the answers from me he was
37:01learning that he didn't have a very good understanding of what mmt was really
37:06about and so I'm giving him responses and at one point he said huh well if
37:12that's mmt then I I think I'm in agreement and I responded by saying
37:17that's because it's very sensible and then the audience laughed and it was just kind of a light moment where uh to
37:24your point do people find that they didn't think they were going to end up
37:30in agreement and lo and behold there's there's a whole lot more there that they
37:36find not just acceptable but it almost becomes how could we not be thinking
37:43along these lines you know why would we not do these things so
37:48yeah it happens all the time I mean and it seems to me one of the interesting things about this is there are often
37:54contexts where to be effective as a as a leftist or to be effectively left economic theory the
38:01assumption is that there's only certain audiences that are worth speaking to but what it seems to me is that part of the
38:06strength is by getting if not complete buy-in you know grudging respect or
38:13validation from the financial journalist Community from you know practitioners
38:18Etc it's allowed mmt to have a legitimacy that you know storming the
38:24barricades with the marxian flag alone would not have ever you know gotten to
38:30this many people gotten into this many spaces so I'm I'm just curious when you sort of think about the the political
38:38goals or the goals of actually making the world a better place and sort of the way an intellectual Paradigm cuts across
38:46different organizing strategies or tactics and things you know is there any sense in
38:52which you you have to sort of balance or think about you know I'm doing this for
38:57a reason I'm getting up every day to make the world better that's why I'm doing this and then this is going to
39:02take me pretty far out into these spaces to do this but there's it all comes back it all has a reason you know um is there
39:10any kind of way that you you approach that or the others that you know if you had any advice for people trying to
39:15navigate that tension because I can say from my personal experience the stuff that I'm doing right now for example
39:20with digital cash is forcing me to get into rooms with a lot of companies who
39:26are making the technology because if we don't have the technology in existence the public policy can't say we should
39:32adopt it and I thought I'd never be the kind of person to be working with with companies and Industry and products
39:39but that's where the work has taken me and that's what needs to happen to to
39:44have this policy influence and you know not not to say that there's Shades of Gray there but just that there's a it's
39:51hard to explain all of those steps to people on the outside other than just to sort of follow what you're doing so I'm
39:57just curious if there's anything any thoughts or Reflections or you might have on that kind of dynamic
40:04I just think you're happy to be willing to say yes a lot uh and to a lot of
40:10things that you might not see the value in or the the way that you know it's
40:16going to position for the next part of the puzzle piece to to fit
40:21um but like you saying yes to some of these things you understand that with
40:26the end goal being where it is you're going to have to pass through some of these other
40:33um go through some of these other motions to get to the ultimate uh end point so uh I think you know I I guess I
40:43just try to do that as much as possible you know I say yes to groups not thinking how is this yes going to help
40:50me you know but it's just sometimes you don't see a clear
40:56benefit to everything but just you try to say yes in in not the usual way
41:03that's the thing I think that a lot of academics and I understand that they're not comfortable because I try to say I
41:10can't do this interview but you should call so and so or I can give you three names or something some people don't
41:15want to do press they're not comfortable talking to journalists they don't want
41:21to be on TV or radio and um and I understand that but it uh those
41:28are the kinds of things that just help that forward momentum that keep you moving forward meet with groups take
41:35time out when somebody reaches out and says I'm interested in the work that you do but I don't understand this little
41:42part of it if you can respond with an email and something you know just it's
41:48over what it can be overwhelming and it's exhausting and I understand you know we can't we can't all just be 24 7
41:56pushing forward but I think saying yes to as much as possible
42:01I mean that was something that I noticed very early on was that this of all the groups of Scholars I would always get
42:06emails back directly it would always be yes how can I help there was a sense in which you know it movement building
42:13begins with that kind of one-on-one support but I guess at the same time you know there are only so many hours in the
42:19day and I guess part of you know prioritization is also saying no we're moving on so I guess one question I had
42:24about that is are there any issues or intellectual arguments that you think mmt is sort of ready to declare Victory
42:31on or can can turn the page on or maybe can you know doesn't need to devote as much advocacy effort towards as a as a
42:38priority versus others are there things that you would sort of rebalance our
42:44Focus towards now at this stage in the game that might be different from earlier stages
42:52well I think it has to be inflation right I mean Warren Mosler used to
42:57always say um and this goes back 20 some years you know Warren would say once you get them
43:03arguing about inflation you've already won that was kind of his line and he would say that because we weren't at the
43:10stage where we were arguing about whether something was going to be inflationary or not we were back in the
43:17stage where we were arguing about the impact on the deficit or the dead and
43:23the sustainability and tipping points or Ratio or you know running out of money
43:29turning into Greece all those sort of things and now I mean you're
43:35hard-pressed to find even someone at AEI right who will push back on the argument
43:43that the government can't afford to do XYZ Medicare whatever so we're at the
43:50inflation is the relevant constraint and I think at least there
43:56it's it's a place I might be comfortable saying you know planting a a flag of
44:03some kind and saying you know we seem to have won that part of the debate but the
44:10inflation piece is is obviously where we are today and there isn't an easy answer
44:16to that one and and that's the next Battlefront I think
44:24and going back to one of your earlier comments you said one of the strengths of mmt was it sort of operational
44:30strengths the kind of focus on the financial operations the sophisticated technical understanding and I would say
44:37you know what I one of the things that myself and Raul Carrillo and others tried to do was bring the legal
44:42technicalities to the table and add that along with the accounting and and with the Central Banking operations and the
44:48finance but I was thinking you know with your work in the Senate and then with all of this media I'd say there's
44:55another set of layers of technical or operational competency there of how to manage media relationships or what goes
45:02on behind the you know the doors in in you know in the legislature in Congress
45:07and I just I'd be curious if if there are any other sort of technical competencies that we wouldn't think of
45:13technical in the same way as we think of accounting but sort of skill sets that you think you've either picked up or
45:18focused on over the years that might be not as obvious to people on the outside bit of proof very important
I'm thinking
45:25just for example you know you're taking a lot of influence from from George lakov's focus on Framing and and how
45:32that's clearly been an incredibly important part of how effective you've been in communicating but just anything
45:37else about sort of navigating those spaces and what it means to be you know kind of an operations person
45:44doing politics or doing public engagement
45:52I mean I I think that what the Press
45:58likes is availability right knowing that there's someone out there who will
46:04respond to them and be willing to to speak to give a quote and
46:09and to be able to speak in a way that isn't you know trying to show everyone
46:15how smart you are all the time uh and and that I think you know some of that comes from a lay cough but I violate
46:23lakov's rules all the time for crying out loud I titled the first chapter of my book uh don't think of a household
46:30and you know one of his more well-known books is don't think of an elephant and he says the moment I tell you not to
46:36think of an elephant you think of an elephant so I say don't think of a household the moment I tell you not to you start thinking of a household so
46:44um I didn't exactly practice what he preaches uh all the time and I you know tackle the deficit and all the myths so
46:51I'm reinforcing in some ways just by putting the myths out there but for the purpose of obviously busting them
46:59um look I if I've had I won't say if I guess I've had some success the success
47:05that I've had I think a lot of it is just down to style of communication being willing to
47:13challenge yourself to write for a broad audience and not just aim at your fellow
47:20academics and the sort of peer-reviewed Journal sort of space but
47:26um it's much harder to do that to to write for a broader audience and at least it
47:33is for me it's it's a it's a real challenge but I just felt like from the earliest days you know launching that
47:39blog back in 2009 that was the goal I mean we had the financial crisis and the
47:46economic meltdown and it just there was such a sense of urgency in me to get our
47:54voices and it was a collective effort it was Matt forstatter it was Bill black it was Randy Ray and I mean these were my
48:00colleagues back at the University of Missouri in Kansas City and I just went to people and said if I start this blog
48:07will you all contribute and and write and and we can really you know try to
48:13influence and help shape the policy response right we can engage in the
48:20debates and we can try to have an impact here in our own way but everyone understood that you have to
48:26write in a readable way and um at the same time you know demonstrate
48:33that you're sophisticated and compelling but you know that's when the media
48:38started to pick it up and and then that helped so I want to follow up on another part
48:44of that in a second but in the meantime uh nmt I think one of its early
48:49strategic successes was going through the internet and bypassing the traditional Gatekeepers and particularly
48:56the economics discipline where there's sort of five journals that if you don't publish you don't get to make it and
49:01they are extremely ideologically um exclusionary um and and today of course we've got
49:07people writing not just op-eds and books and doing television documentaries and things but doing educational videos
49:14podcasts tick tocks Etc are there any particular forms of kind of media engagement public engagement that you're
49:21more excited about most excited about the upcoming years that you've found of kind of worked better or or have more
49:28bang for the buck that you you're you're interested in getting a more or hoping
49:33to see more of I mean look I think that
49:40I'm getting old and I don't know what Instagram is really and I don't know how
49:45to use it and I had someone actually ask me earlier today uh they were trying to
49:51set up Instagram and figure out how to post videos or something I said I have absolutely no idea but I'm sure my 15
49:58year old daughter could hook you up like she would know all of that stuff and
50:04almost all of my faith right now is in young people I mean that whatever
50:13communication platforms they are most reliant on to get their news to share
50:20information to communicate with one another then I'm really enthusiastic about that
50:27um because I think you know people older than I am have let down
50:33generations of Americans and not just Americans but the world over
50:39um so I I don't know I whatever is useful those tick tocks that I've seen
50:45that are done by you know some who are supportive mmt hilarious funny
50:52um they teach something I don't know how to do that I'm old I
50:58it's awesome and if it's Instagram or or snap or whatever I don't know these
51:04platforms I I know Twitter and and I and that's all and so you know but but I
51:11love to see the energy I love the creativity I used to say years ago and maybe you remember this I used to say I
51:18wish I had kind of you know uh some money to work with because I really
51:23wanted to do a library of resources and what I imagined were a series of short videos you know seven minute five to
51:30seven minute kind of explainers and let's just build this Library out I I
51:36would have loved to have done that but scripting and record you know how do you I don't know how to I don't have those
51:42talents to edit video and all that kind of stuff but I still think that is an area where
51:51um a lot that's very shareable content and you know somebody with a bit of time
51:57and and some Talent could work with some mmt Scholars and try to get these little
52:04bite size kind of explainers and and others I think are doing things
52:10um Stephen Hale's got a new project out uh with Phil Long and others over in
52:16Australia um I I think Bill Mitchell's done something with an mmt kind of teaching
52:24tool so people are trying a lot of different things
52:30Dr Hannah Judson and Jessica now yeah yeah and Anna
52:38um and I guess on the other side of the spectrum thinking about young people um uh you know one of the things that I
52:44I liked about Senator Warren talking about Personnel is policies when I think about the legal World there are a lot of
52:51issues that to really be successful on it's not just a matter of changing one
52:56policy it's actually a matter of having people that understand the way that we do things in the right positions whether
53:02that's you know regulatory agencies or Stafford you know offices in Congress or
53:08you know entities like the CBO which you got to see up close and came away with a
53:13number of thoughts about how to reform so are there any thoughts or suggestions or advice that you can give to younger
53:20people who might be interested in trying to to walk the walk through the halls of power as a way of kind of enacting or
53:26helping push you know mmt ideas into the policy space obviously you you were around the
53:33senator you've seen how they built those teams and things yeah I mean um
53:39you know there are in Washington DC and it it's very clear
53:47that um proximity seems to matter a lot right when you have whether it's cap or
53:56um the center for American progress or Washington Center for Equitable growth or Epi you know when you've got staff on
54:04the ground and you're spinning out research papers on the minimum wage or
54:09whatever it is and you can run somebody up to the hill and you know share the
54:15latest research findings with staffers who then go to their bosses and next
54:21thing you know you know somebody's helping draft legislation and you know this because you've done a fair bit of
54:27this by now um but but the Senate is a weird place
54:32and and the house too but the Senate especially I think and you know I remember
54:38one Senator saying to me you know the this is like this place is run by 21 year olds kind of thing
54:44uh and it's true you know young people have an incredible amount of influence with their members and if you can become
54:52a staffer or become you know someone with whom staffers can reach out and
55:00um you know get input advice on proposed legislation or something like they've done with you uh that's great it's just
55:07an expensive place to live a lot of internships used to be unpaid I think that's changed and and changing but it's
55:15not a cheap thing to do to take a a position as an intern try to work your
55:20way up um but they like to bring people out of some of these think tanks and
55:27um that kind of is a bit of a revolving door um for some and they'll do it from Cato
55:34or Heritage or AEI or whatever on the other side as well so policy research
55:41Think Tank places a good possible way to both get involved in the drafting of
55:48legislation working with staffers becoming a staffer
55:55and then you know you're not coming through that I think it's a lot of it is just who do you know when a position
56:01opens up you know the staffers who are already on the inside um putting forward a name for a vacant
56:08spot and one question building on that and you know this is a question with an easy
56:14answer so I'm not trying to sort of play any country games but every intellectual movement has to answer this question of
56:20how its members and leaders will eat and pay the bills while they they do the work that needs to be so for mmt like a
56:26lot of others that has obviously involved the combination of external support from from non-academics but
56:32including you know in the early days to an extent Warren mosleb and also traditional academic appointments grants
56:39those kinds of things uh and at least in mind limited exposure relative to other
56:44movements and certainly other organizations who are in the same space as we are mmt has been pretty remarkably
56:50underfunded certainly lacks any sort of central Financial Puppet Master behind this scenes in the decade that I've been
56:57involved um but it it seems to me that this is a thing that comes up both with with sort
57:03of critic haters wanting to portray this is all in the pocket of of you know Warren's Banker money or on the other
57:10side just the challenge that we face as a movement building pipelines of support
57:15if we lose access to one University's PhD program or one Masters program it's
57:20very hard to keep the intellectual pipeline going um do you see any you know what what are
57:27the kind of biggest hurdles pitfalls things that you know challenges that you see for the mmt community trying to
57:35to grow and navigate that terrain of needing to sort of be able to to eat but
57:40on the other hand each one of the ways in which you do that coming with its own strings and
57:46with its own challenges and pitfalls
57:53I mean in terms of
57:58Rec you have to be able to recreate right so that take UMKC or any PhD program but in
58:06in our case with mmt there aren't a lot of departments where someone can go and
58:12get training that will culminate in a PhD where you've got sort of a solid uh
58:20mmt background right so um Warren tried to do that and I think
58:28you know in a number of different ways there was support for the PHD program at
58:33the new school for many years there was support at Cambridge University uh when
58:38Phil barestas uh had a program kind of going there and I won't even know there's support in I think Switzerland
58:45and and for Bill Mitchell when he was at uh Newcastle and at UMKC and I think
58:51Warren was really generous and I I think he was also um at least early on also trying to you
58:58know maybe find people at places like Harvard and out where they don't need any money but you know he was trying to
59:06create some connections and and so um did it help us yes of course it
59:13helped it helped to bring attract faculty because you got a cluster higher
59:18with Matt forshatter and Randy Ray pavlina came started the graduate program I came initially on a one-year
59:25appointment that then turned into a permanent position there and then we were able to build something that at its
59:31height was just incredible um you know students from all over the
59:37world came we had the largest PhD program I think at UMKC uh we had a huge
59:44Masters program um Levy is now you know uh has
59:50introduced a master's program and maybe they will get to the point before long
59:55where there's also a PhD there that's not something that Warren is funding but
1:00:00it does take money and that is the reality and especially in a public university like the University of
1:00:06Missouri in Kansas City we were cash poor always uh there was no way that a
1:00:13university like that was going to have the you know Financial wherewithal to bring in you
1:00:21know full Professor like Randy Ray and and make these hires and build out this
1:00:26program and provide tuition waivers and and stipends and and that's what you
1:00:33need to support a PhD program you got to have money you have to be able to attract students and we wanted the very
1:00:39best that we could get and we got them and now you have pavlina and foddle and
1:00:46yava and drifka and Eric to Moines and
1:00:52Yan Lang and so so many others so um I I would never apologize for you know
1:01:00having someone like Warren um come in and say and he was very hands
1:01:06off you know that's what a lot of donors will do it's not like Florida State Koch brothers come in and say I'm giving you
1:01:12money but these you must do these things and there are lots of strings attached um Warren wanted us to to
1:01:22you know build something and he was obviously interested in the center for
1:01:29Full Employment and price stability those were broad goals heck those are the Federal Reserves Goals full employment price stability so
1:01:37um I don't know if that spoke enough to where what you were trying to get at
1:01:42there but no no I think that was very helpful I think you know from my perspective also what you were saying about Warren being
1:01:49hands off you know there really is a difference between sort of hands-off support from people that share common interests and this idea of kind of a
1:01:56donor-driven framework I've seen other groups where you say the wrong thing and you get kicked out and your donor money
1:02:02gets pulled you know for people very close to us have been kicked out of you know the Roosevelt Institute and things
1:02:08for not towing a party line or the Washington Center for Equitable growth or um and then groups like ined and things
1:02:15are are fully kind of pushing influence through the the weight of the money that
1:02:21they have and at least from my perspective the the mmt community does does not have a does not have a
1:02:28disciplining Rod driven by the money but somehow is sort of managed to have a very outsized influence and I think one
1:02:34of the ways that that's happened is through a lot of very creative and careful material production
1:02:43I often say to others it really annoys me that of all the groups out there that
1:02:48make their materials very easily accessible the Austrian School that loves to talk about scarcity and that
1:02:53there's no such thing as a free lunch goes out of their way to make all of their materials available to everybody
1:02:59because that's what you do when you kind of proselytize and in the early days of
1:03:04mmt it was sort of possible perhaps to have a single repository of all the scholarship of all of the Articles out
1:03:11there or something you know approximating a pretty big chunk but as it keeps growing and becoming more
1:03:17diffuse I get the worry that there's a lot of people out there spreading you
1:03:22know mischaracterizations of mmt and then there's a lot of siled aspects of mmt
1:03:30scholarship that that isn't coming together do you do you sort of see any
1:03:36particular possibilities challenges are there things that you've thought about on that front how we how we keep a
1:03:42coherence to what mmt is in the face of it growing of a larger on one hand but also
1:03:48ever more people deciding they can talk about what it is and and what what it
1:03:53means to have some sort of you know Integrity to the boundary of the body of work
1:04:02no I think it's too big I think I think it's too big and I don't really want to
1:04:10try to think about electing you know Gatekeepers people I've heard proposals
1:04:16over the years of trying to come up with a way to certify this is mmt certified
1:04:23someone has read what this mmt adjacent person is doing or has written there's
1:04:29some chance that someone will read that and think oh that's part of mmt but if
1:04:34it's not sanctioned from on high and someone hasn't signed off on it then it
1:04:40can't be welcomed into the sort of broader mmt scholarship I just don't
1:04:46think we can and I don't think we would want to I don't want to try to police what others are doing in a way that says
1:04:54yes you're in no you're out you know it's too big it's it's too big at this point you've got lots of people who've
1:05:00never had a college course from anybody you know who has contributed to the
1:05:07scholarship or could be considered an mmt scholar or or whatever but they're
1:05:12out there writing all kinds of stuff and maybe they're calling it mmt and who's you know what are we supposed to do go
1:05:19out and chase after everybody who's who's out there I just
1:05:24it's it's gotten too big I don't think we can do that uh is it a problem yes
1:05:30because someone will read and it happens to me all the time and I know it happens to you someone will quote back something
1:05:36and say well this is M and tears want this or mmt says this they're quoting
1:05:42someone I've never heard of before but I don't know how to I don't think there's a way to
1:05:49stop that from happening unless you've thought of something I haven't thought of no I haven't and you know I think
1:05:55about ways in which we can as much as possible people who do share common values and things to speak with one
1:06:02voice in ways you know putting multiple names on on documents and things but I think you're right you know the
1:06:07alternative of kind of a casserole approach or a or a kind of authoritarian
1:06:12boundary has its own problems that may actually outweigh whatever the problem you're trying to
1:06:18to fix there is and and certainly one of the ways that I've tried to deal with this and maybe you know curious if you
1:06:24have any thoughts about that is we often talk about what is mmt well on one hand it's a set of principles on the other
1:06:30hand it's a sort of lens or a framework that you can then apply to other issues
1:06:36um and I also say I think on another level it's a group of people it's a sociological thing it's a it's a
1:06:41practicing Community just like the law is in one sense what lawyers do or what
1:06:47people who are involved in the law do and um I think that's the the part where to
1:06:54me that that difficult question of what are the boundaries of the ideas bleeds into
1:06:59what is the community we're trying to build you know who who is welcome in that Community what are the spaces that
1:07:06that we want to make people feel like you know this this kind of behavior is not acceptable not not because it's
1:07:12intellectually problematic or maybe it may be but but because we're getting up
1:07:17every day choosing who we want to work with and it matters you know to choose
1:07:22people who aren't trying to do things that we don't agree with um so I guess maybe another kind of
1:07:28follow-on to that is do you do you see kind of
1:07:34ways in which the mmt community can have a set of values as well as ideas that we can commit to
1:07:43is there a sense not not political in a partisan sense but in a valued sense way
1:07:49in which you identify you know who you work with or what you're trying to do
1:07:54obviously I assume you wouldn't be going to Bernie Sanders if you're a trump supporter or if you kind of you know
1:08:00don't that kind of thing but are there other are there other ways in which you see this community having a coherence in
1:08:06its values
1:08:11on one level yes I but on another level no it's too
1:08:17big now Rowan it's so it's so big and even within the broader mmt even even
1:08:27within I should say that tighter mmt Community there are
1:08:32um people who make decisions about how to comport
1:08:39themselves in other groups that I don't it puts me off I guess and I don't think
1:08:47it's helpful to the larger Community when you're trying to win hearts and minds and
1:08:53um but we share so I mean if we're Venn diagrams right we're we're overlapping
1:09:0195 percent of the way but but in some important there are some important value
1:09:07differences in the way we treat other members of the community sometimes that
1:09:14so but I don't know I don't uh I don't think we can have there's no mmt code of
1:09:20conduct there's no mmt value statement that everybody's gonna sign on to and and we're different we
1:09:27have differences um I just think it's inevitable I don't know I'm maybe I'm not
1:09:35I'm not answering your questions no I think you are I think I appreciate the honesty and I think it's an easy question I didn't sort of expect to have
1:09:42an answer that would sort of satisfy it no and and for me at least you know coming from the Australian context we
1:09:49have political parties that have factions that have clearly defined you know antagonistic roles label left labor
1:09:56right and things like that and there's a sense in which you don't consider them part of your same you know shared values
1:10:02but there's also a sense in which there's a larger enemy in in whatever particular context and at least to me
1:10:08that seems to be part of this challenge is trying to work out how many lesser
1:10:14enemies that you would be would be needing to be on the same side within particular rooms or trying to work out
1:10:19which fights matter on a particular day um but thinking about yeah like there's
1:10:26what is so hard about letting things go when you know you're gonna
1:10:33see one of your you know someone in the mmt community do something say something
1:10:39you think they get it wrong you think they you have a choice in that moment you know to make a big public spectacle
1:10:46out of it or to just let it go and find something bigger to worry about in your
1:10:52life or to have a private word I mean I guess there are those those are the three options and I think you have to
1:10:59understand that you know having broad alignment and a
1:11:04shared commitment to trying to you know lean in to this effort
1:11:12is a lot and if you're not there a hundred percent and you're making mistakes five percent of the time maybe
1:11:19it's not worth you know making a big production out of it
1:11:25um but on important things values you know
1:11:30sometimes you have to right you do you need an intervention sometimes it's worth calling somebody out because it's
1:11:38it's a real problem but I think a lot of the time there's just a lot of pettiness
1:11:44that gets gets in the way and and at least to me there's a
1:11:49difference when we're talking about people who've got personal values and people where those values are actually influencing the direction of the mmt
1:11:56community you know I like to say we're the ones if we're the ones turning up and doing the work we're the ones who
1:12:01are the same weather Direction goes and to me there's certain communities certain groups that I want to make sure
1:12:07feel welcomed in this community and if others are not doing that then we have a difference in and direction we want to
1:12:13go and that that is Meaningful it is Meaningful where we choose to you know allocate our resources our time our
1:12:20attention and things like that but again I think your your broader point which is the term memory itself to to be boundary
1:12:28policing that would have a very very uh a large set of secondary implications
1:12:34that go beyond saying well I don't want to work with those people I don't want to be in institutions with those people
1:12:39but to start defining what isn't is an mmt in that sense can have a a larger
1:12:46um a larger kind of Castle or authoritarian limiting effect but on this question of
1:12:51kind of priorities there one of the things that I've experienced I've been trying to struggle with this is there was a moment at the end of or the
1:12:58beginning I would say of last year where we had come off the back of a fair bit of campaigning around the job guarantee
1:13:04you know people even not just Sanders but others in the presidential campaign were contemplating talking about it you
1:13:10know um Cory Booker had a version of it Jilla Brown was talking about it uh and even
1:13:17people like hick and Looper were coming out against it uh and then of course
1:13:22Biden got in and even though in many respects his team some of his members were were open to other aspects of the
1:13:29mmt sort of framework that that interest in the job guarantee kind of fell by the
1:13:35wayside and I remember during covert and I was focusing on emergency cash relief I know you were focusing on these big
1:13:40budget questions trying to keep the door open to to a larger spending commitment uh
1:13:46and and pavelina was out there saying you know we need to have a job guarantee in the middle of this and I know you
1:13:51were saying that as well um but it it seems like even as we've
1:13:56had success in some areas there's a there's a sense in which that issue has sort of fallen off or is it is in a
1:14:03retreat moment that it isn't getting much attention do you do you see any
1:14:08green shoots any light at the end of the tunnel any particular you know openings for that in in any of
1:14:16the work that you're doing in any of the spaces you're in is is it just a sort of sense in which the pendulum has to swing
1:14:22one way before it'll swing back or I mean I think and
1:14:32again some momentum in Australia with political parties there embracing and
1:14:38putting this on a a party platform um yeah the labor party just won there
1:14:44and they've been putting a job guarantee on all of their youth party platforms a number of State parties so there's
1:14:49certainly some interesting that's for sure and I think among greens because I I do think that it is it it does become
1:14:57more difficult in an economic environment in which the unemployment rate is hovering around three and a half
1:15:03percent uh to get people thinking what we need as a jobs program right we have
1:15:10everybody's saying look at the number of vacancies relative to the number of um people out looking for work so it's
1:15:17harder in this economic environment where I think it is very much still alive is in you know the climate Justice
1:15:27sort of movement that people who are thinking about all of the the work that
1:15:32needs to be done jobs things that we have to do and do quickly and do on a
1:15:38massive scale and to have this just transition as part of
1:15:44um getting you know Global action on climate uh I still hear job guarantee as
1:15:50part of you know uh as part of that messaging and part of that sort of
1:15:55platform but people like Cory Booker other members of Congress I think
1:16:01probably much less of a sense of urgency given
1:16:07the economic environment and I guess that's that's a good follow-up question is do you you were
1:16:15talking earlier about the fact that mmt for a long time had been orienting its intervention towards an environment of
1:16:21low inflation or sort of persistent under demand uh and and now we have to
1:16:27deal with the other side of that you know the Warren Moses we've already won kind of now we have a new problem to win
1:16:33um do you think there's a different set of concerns now compared to you know
1:16:38even a few years ago when it comes to the job guarantee advocacy as you said we're in low unemployment but we're also
1:16:45experiencing that kind of uh uh run up in inflation before we hit
1:16:52that type full employment barrier and people saying well you know we we haven't got to two percent unemployment
1:16:57but now we need to start calling off the economy and that question of kind of unemployment being the lever to do that
1:17:04or the nairu has come roaring back do you do you see a sense in which this is
1:17:09requires a pivot in our focus of job guarantee advocacy or is it just a matter of
1:17:15you know Finding different coalitional interests here is there any
1:17:21I don't think it requires a pivot I think that
1:17:27that they're I don't think that most people believe that we don't have
1:17:35quote tightful employment today and I don't think that two percent unemployment is what most people right
1:17:42uh are are aiming for when they say I want a tight labor market I think most
1:17:48people think that what we have at the moment is an extremely tight labor market and you know you know this that's
1:17:55what uh chairman Powell sees that's what the rest of the fomc sees that's what
1:18:01most economists probably believe that's what political pundits and others see
1:18:07they see number of vacancies here number Seekers here hence very tight uh labor
1:18:14market so I don't think it requires a pivot I think um you know we're already talking
1:18:20recession this is the the word of you know of the moment everybody is is it
1:18:25going to be this year is it going to be next year is it going to be a deep recession is it going to be somehow v-shaped is it going to be
1:18:31um you saw I'm sure the IMF report that came came out what a week ago where
1:18:37you've got the IMF saying when the next downturn happens we need to start
1:18:42thinking about how we are going to how we want policy makers to respond where you know the report I'm referring to
1:18:48right this IMF report that said we ought to do central banks ought to just be the
1:18:53ones sending out the checks next time you know uh and so that's again turning to this sort of
1:19:01I've called it like the money Cannon right you you just sort of almost indiscriminately but not quite this yeah
1:19:09I believe it calls it pump priming yeah yeah okay so you you want to get cash
1:19:15into people's hands and figure out you know who doesn't who gets left out and then you draw the line somewhere or your
1:19:20means test it you figure out how much to send and you send a bunch of cash um so
1:19:26that I think is itself an opening that keeps the job guarantee as an
1:19:32alternative way to you know have a response to a slowing economy an
1:19:39economic downturn Rising unemployment that's targeted that's counter cyclical
1:19:44that doesn't rely on literally an act of Congress to you know come back and
1:19:50provide stimulus each time that once you get the thing in place then it is there and the payments uh will become
1:19:58automatic and you know how this people know how this works so I think it's uh
1:20:04it's still something that people are are going to consider if only as an
1:20:10alternative to what others are putting forward and to the extent that people
1:20:16can sort of look at these things side by side and say one is targeted one is counter cyclical one doesn't rely on
1:20:23Congress the other now would be in the hands of of unelected right
1:20:29technocrats who are figuring out essentially how to run fiscal what
1:20:34amounts to fiscal policy um do the means testing without being accountable to voters to figure out who
1:20:41gets and who does that's I I welcome that if if we can have you know the job
1:20:48guarantee uh debated in that context of what what
1:20:54how do we want to fortify things going forward you know because
1:21:00the next downturn will come and what kind of policy response do we want when
1:21:06it happens well that's also a nice lead-in which is I thinking about the different ways to
1:21:12try and influence policy at that Federal level not talking about sort of activism and things but on one hand you've got
1:21:18legislation and I've obviously written some and seen exactly how far you can get with some of that and on the other
1:21:24you've got sort of executive action and there's the whole debate right now with President
1:21:29Biden canceling student debt and that's a that's a different set of constraints but I think one thing that comes up a
1:21:36lot in the mmt discourses straddling that dance between executive legit you
1:21:41know action and legislative legitimacy that on one hand we want to be making
1:21:47sure that some of this stuff is recaptured by the legislature we've sort of handed it over too much to certain
1:21:53technocrats who aren't acting in the right set of Interest or with the right framework and in that
1:21:59context maybe with monetary policy taking it back from the agency the FED
1:22:04has a has a positive social value but at the same time and as if you've written before and I think you know history will
1:22:11look at your financial times up here saying that maybe we need an independent fiscal agency is a very important moment
1:22:17in the mmt you know development um that there is a sense in which at the
1:22:23same time some of the criticisms that have come out in recent years have have been based on this crude
1:22:28misunderstanding that mmt wants to reduce everything to legislative action like we're going to have a vote every
1:22:34week in in Congress about what needs to be done for the next week or something and so you know how are there any
1:22:41particular places you see those those two forces that kind of when do we want to put it to an administrative agency or
1:22:47to an executive that can operate nimbly versus when are we trying to kind of claim back some of that decision-making
1:22:55uh to two more sort of discursive Democratic processes um
1:23:03I don't know I mean the executive office has you know fairly broad powers and I
1:23:11think people like Dave Deon right have um assembled something like a hundred
1:23:17things that the bite Administration could do through executive action
1:23:23executive order executive action if they chose to do so so there's a lot that
1:23:29um an elected president can initiate through that office and I'm not
1:23:36sure that I've thought very much about you know when to say well it would be
1:23:42better to run that through Congress obviously that's a part of the debate that's been had over student debt
1:23:48cancellation um but in terms of mmt and
1:23:54um you know elected officials being accountable to voters and saying the way that we
1:24:01currently try to move legislation through Congress and up to the White
1:24:06House is fraught with all kinds of problems and there are these barriers
1:24:12and the Congressional budget office and the budgeting
1:24:17framework that is in place that has lawmakers vetting proposed new spending
1:24:23for the impacts on the deficit and the debt as opposed to vetting major
1:24:30legislation not you know we want to do 5 billion on a youth job guarantee program
1:24:36or 500 million or whatever 25 million here they're not going to
1:24:41um mmt is not there to say you know you have to run this all through some
1:24:47special mmt budgeting frame but for major
1:24:52legislation where we can't get things done because the wheels grind to a halt
1:25:00because cbo's score comes back and says you know it adds too much to the deficit
1:25:05or the bird rule is violated or whatever the case may be that's where I want mmt
1:25:12making inroads in in that process
1:25:17and I guess last question um you know real softball because I've made so many easy questions it's just uh
1:25:24the title of this talk was where do we go from here so are there any kind of big picture last things you'd like to leave the broader Community students
1:25:31people who might be watching this video in the upcoming months you know where where would you like to see
1:25:36mmt go from here just anything that we haven't already talked about or just the big takeaways for you and you're kind of
1:25:42thinking about next steps what would the big win look like at the end of this year or in a few
1:25:48years time or something like that I mean for me the big win if we're going to talk about a big win
1:25:54a big win for me is Meaningful action on climate what
1:26:00what else what else is there that's bigger than that so you know maybe that we'll see
1:26:08ten thousand dollars of student debt canceled for uh a lot of people that's going to feel
1:26:15like a big win for someone who has exactly ten thousand dollars student loan debt
1:26:21um but the big the big win for me is it we're so far from where I would like to
1:26:28see us and so to the students and to you know everybody else that you just
1:26:33mentioned uh we have a lot of work to do and a long way to go and I know that
1:26:39there are people out there Andres Bernal is is kind of a tireless
1:26:45um you know force of nature out there working with uh candidates and I know
1:26:52that many of you are as well but finding people who are willing to run for office which is just one of the hardest things
1:26:59that a person can do the amount of work that's involved
1:27:04um you know running for office very very hard and he is someone that I know has
1:27:10been working with candidates trying to get them up to speed um mmt kind of informed uh we need to
1:27:20see a a much bigger Coalition of people in Congress who you know can think
1:27:29differently can remember what it felt like frankly in 2020 to pass the cares act or to pass
1:27:38the American Rescue plan act in March of 2021 I talked with some lawmakers I
1:27:44talked with some lawmakers who were emotional I mean absolutely emotional
1:27:51after passing that legislation because they understood what an incredible
1:27:57impact they were about to have on the lives of millions of people remember lifting 40 percent of all the kids in
1:28:04this country out of poverty with a single provision in that bill they now know what it feels like to be able to do
1:28:12something like that and I know a lot of them don't ever want to go back to what
1:28:17it was like in the bad old days when you thought you couldn't afford to do anything when the deficit had to be the
1:28:23priority and the kids and planet and everything else is secondary to concerns
1:28:29about you know looking after the budget and I just hope that we can you know
1:28:36that this bout of inflation doesn't ultimately
1:28:42um you know lead to the two steps back after the two steps forward because we had the wind in
1:28:49our backs and um and I think we just have to keep pushing
1:28:55well that's a great moment I think to end thank you so much for the time thank you for the friend conversation I very much appreciate us you know being able
1:29:01to talk about what's going on within the community in in an open way with everybody and thanks for everybody who's
1:29:07participated and attended the various events of this conference as Stephanie
1:29:12said we'll try to make sure to have it in person next time but it's been a pleasure please stay involved if you
1:29:18want to get further involved with the modern Money Network feel free to reach out uh otherwise see you on the other
1:29:24side thanks to everybody
45:25just for example you know you're taking a lot of influence from from George lakov's focus on Framing and and how
45:32that's clearly been an incredibly important part of how effective you've been in communicating but just anything
45:37else about sort of navigating those spaces and what it means to be you know kind of an operations person
45:44doing politics or doing public engagement
45:52I mean I I think that what the Press
45:58likes is availability right knowing that there's someone out there who will
46:04respond to them and be willing to to speak to give a quote and
46:09and to be able to speak in a way that isn't you know trying to show everyone
46:15how smart you are all the time uh and and that I think you know some of that comes from a lay cough but I violate
46:23lakov's rules all the time for crying out loud I titled the first chapter of my book uh don't think of a household
46:30and you know one of his more well-known books is don't think of an elephant and he says the moment I tell you not to
46:36think of an elephant you think of an elephant so I say don't think of a household the moment I tell you not to you start thinking of a household so
46:44um I didn't exactly practice what he preaches uh all the time and I you know tackle the deficit and all the myths so
46:51I'm reinforcing in some ways just by putting the myths out there but for the purpose of obviously busting them
46:59um look I if I've had I won't say if I guess I've had some success the success
47:05that I've had I think a lot of it is just down to style of communication being willing to
47:13challenge yourself to write for a broad audience and not just aim at your fellow
47:20academics and the sort of peer-reviewed Journal sort of space but
47:26um it's much harder to do that to to write for a broader audience and at least it
47:33is for me it's it's a it's a real challenge but I just felt like from the earliest days you know launching that
47:39blog back in 2009 that was the goal I mean we had the financial crisis and the
47:46economic meltdown and it just there was such a sense of urgency in me to get our
47:54voices and it was a collective effort it was Matt forstatter it was Bill black it was Randy Ray and I mean these were my
48:00colleagues back at the University of Missouri in Kansas City and I just went to people and said if I start this blog
48:07will you all contribute and and write and and we can really you know try to
48:13influence and help shape the policy response right we can engage in the
48:20debates and we can try to have an impact here in our own way but everyone understood that you have to
48:26write in a readable way and um at the same time you know demonstrate
48:33that you're sophisticated and compelling but you know that's when the media
48:38started to pick it up and and then that helped so I want to follow up on another part
48:44of that in a second but in the meantime uh nmt I think one of its early
48:49strategic successes was going through the internet and bypassing the traditional Gatekeepers and particularly
48:56the economics discipline where there's sort of five journals that if you don't publish you don't get to make it and
49:01they are extremely ideologically um exclusionary um and and today of course we've got
49:07people writing not just op-eds and books and doing television documentaries and things but doing educational videos
49:14podcasts tick tocks Etc are there any particular forms of kind of media engagement public engagement that you're
49:21more excited about most excited about the upcoming years that you've found of kind of worked better or or have more
49:28bang for the buck that you you're you're interested in getting a more or hoping
49:33to see more of I mean look I think that
49:40I'm getting old and I don't know what Instagram is really and I don't know how
49:45to use it and I had someone actually ask me earlier today uh they were trying to
49:51set up Instagram and figure out how to post videos or something I said I have absolutely no idea but I'm sure my 15
49:58year old daughter could hook you up like she would know all of that stuff and
50:04almost all of my faith right now is in young people I mean that whatever
50:13communication platforms they are most reliant on to get their news to share
50:20information to communicate with one another then I'm really enthusiastic about that
50:27um because I think you know people older than I am have let down
50:33generations of Americans and not just Americans but the world over
50:39um so I I don't know I whatever is useful those tick tocks that I've seen
50:45that are done by you know some who are supportive mmt hilarious funny
50:52um they teach something I don't know how to do that I'm old I
50:58it's awesome and if it's Instagram or or snap or whatever I don't know these
51:04platforms I I know Twitter and and I and that's all and so you know but but I
51:11love to see the energy I love the creativity I used to say years ago and maybe you remember this I used to say I
51:18wish I had kind of you know uh some money to work with because I really
51:23wanted to do a library of resources and what I imagined were a series of short videos you know seven minute five to
51:30seven minute kind of explainers and let's just build this Library out I I
51:36would have loved to have done that but scripting and record you know how do you I don't know how to I don't have those
51:42talents to edit video and all that kind of stuff but I still think that is an area where
51:51um a lot that's very shareable content and you know somebody with a bit of time
51:57and and some Talent could work with some mmt Scholars and try to get these little
52:04bite size kind of explainers and and others I think are doing things
52:10um Stephen Hale's got a new project out uh with Phil Long and others over in
52:16Australia um I I think Bill Mitchell's done something with an mmt kind of teaching
52:24tool so people are trying a lot of different things
52:30Dr Hannah Judson and Jessica now yeah yeah and Anna
52:38um and I guess on the other side of the spectrum thinking about young people um uh you know one of the things that I
52:44I liked about Senator Warren talking about Personnel is policies when I think about the legal World there are a lot of
52:51issues that to really be successful on it's not just a matter of changing one
52:56policy it's actually a matter of having people that understand the way that we do things in the right positions whether
53:02that's you know regulatory agencies or Stafford you know offices in Congress or
53:08you know entities like the CBO which you got to see up close and came away with a
53:13number of thoughts about how to reform so are there any thoughts or suggestions or advice that you can give to younger
53:20people who might be interested in trying to to walk the walk through the halls of power as a way of kind of enacting or
53:26helping push you know mmt ideas into the policy space obviously you you were around the
53:33senator you've seen how they built those teams and things yeah I mean um
53:39you know there are in Washington DC and it it's very clear
53:47that um proximity seems to matter a lot right when you have whether it's cap or
53:56um the center for American progress or Washington Center for Equitable growth or Epi you know when you've got staff on
54:04the ground and you're spinning out research papers on the minimum wage or
54:09whatever it is and you can run somebody up to the hill and you know share the
54:15latest research findings with staffers who then go to their bosses and next
54:21thing you know you know somebody's helping draft legislation and you know this because you've done a fair bit of
54:27this by now um but but the Senate is a weird place
54:32and and the house too but the Senate especially I think and you know I remember
54:38one Senator saying to me you know the this is like this place is run by 21 year olds kind of thing
54:44uh and it's true you know young people have an incredible amount of influence with their members and if you can become
54:52a staffer or become you know someone with whom staffers can reach out and
55:00um you know get input advice on proposed legislation or something like they've done with you uh that's great it's just
55:07an expensive place to live a lot of internships used to be unpaid I think that's changed and and changing but it's
55:15not a cheap thing to do to take a a position as an intern try to work your
55:20way up um but they like to bring people out of some of these think tanks and
55:27um that kind of is a bit of a revolving door um for some and they'll do it from Cato
55:34or Heritage or AEI or whatever on the other side as well so policy research
55:41Think Tank places a good possible way to both get involved in the drafting of
55:48legislation working with staffers becoming a staffer
55:55and then you know you're not coming through that I think it's a lot of it is just who do you know when a position
56:01opens up you know the staffers who are already on the inside um putting forward a name for a vacant
56:08spot and one question building on that and you know this is a question with an easy
56:14answer so I'm not trying to sort of play any country games but every intellectual movement has to answer this question of
56:20how its members and leaders will eat and pay the bills while they they do the work that needs to be so for mmt like a
56:26lot of others that has obviously involved the combination of external support from from non-academics but
56:32including you know in the early days to an extent Warren mosleb and also traditional academic appointments grants
56:39those kinds of things uh and at least in mind limited exposure relative to other
56:44movements and certainly other organizations who are in the same space as we are mmt has been pretty remarkably
56:50underfunded certainly lacks any sort of central Financial Puppet Master behind this scenes in the decade that I've been
56:57involved um but it it seems to me that this is a thing that comes up both with with sort
57:03of critic haters wanting to portray this is all in the pocket of of you know Warren's Banker money or on the other
57:10side just the challenge that we face as a movement building pipelines of support
57:15if we lose access to one University's PhD program or one Masters program it's
57:20very hard to keep the intellectual pipeline going um do you see any you know what what are
57:27the kind of biggest hurdles pitfalls things that you know challenges that you see for the mmt community trying to
57:35to grow and navigate that terrain of needing to sort of be able to to eat but
57:40on the other hand each one of the ways in which you do that coming with its own strings and
57:46with its own challenges and pitfalls
57:53I mean in terms of
57:58Rec you have to be able to recreate right so that take UMKC or any PhD program but in
58:06in our case with mmt there aren't a lot of departments where someone can go and
58:12get training that will culminate in a PhD where you've got sort of a solid uh
58:20mmt background right so um Warren tried to do that and I think
58:28you know in a number of different ways there was support for the PHD program at
58:33the new school for many years there was support at Cambridge University uh when
58:38Phil barestas uh had a program kind of going there and I won't even know there's support in I think Switzerland
58:45and and for Bill Mitchell when he was at uh Newcastle and at UMKC and I think
58:51Warren was really generous and I I think he was also um at least early on also trying to you
58:58know maybe find people at places like Harvard and out where they don't need any money but you know he was trying to
59:06create some connections and and so um did it help us yes of course it
59:13helped it helped to bring attract faculty because you got a cluster higher
59:18with Matt forshatter and Randy Ray pavlina came started the graduate program I came initially on a one-year
59:25appointment that then turned into a permanent position there and then we were able to build something that at its
59:31height was just incredible um you know students from all over the
59:37world came we had the largest PhD program I think at UMKC uh we had a huge
59:44Masters program um Levy is now you know uh has
59:50introduced a master's program and maybe they will get to the point before long
59:55where there's also a PhD there that's not something that Warren is funding but
1:00:00it does take money and that is the reality and especially in a public university like the University of
1:00:06Missouri in Kansas City we were cash poor always uh there was no way that a
1:00:13university like that was going to have the you know Financial wherewithal to bring in you
1:00:21know full Professor like Randy Ray and and make these hires and build out this
1:00:26program and provide tuition waivers and and stipends and and that's what you
1:00:33need to support a PhD program you got to have money you have to be able to attract students and we wanted the very
1:00:39best that we could get and we got them and now you have pavlina and foddle and
1:00:46yava and drifka and Eric to Moines and
1:00:52Yan Lang and so so many others so um I I would never apologize for you know
1:01:00having someone like Warren um come in and say and he was very hands
1:01:06off you know that's what a lot of donors will do it's not like Florida State Koch brothers come in and say I'm giving you
1:01:12money but these you must do these things and there are lots of strings attached um Warren wanted us to to
1:01:22you know build something and he was obviously interested in the center for
1:01:29Full Employment and price stability those were broad goals heck those are the Federal Reserves Goals full employment price stability so
1:01:37um I don't know if that spoke enough to where what you were trying to get at
1:01:42there but no no I think that was very helpful I think you know from my perspective also what you were saying about Warren being
1:01:49hands off you know there really is a difference between sort of hands-off support from people that share common interests and this idea of kind of a
1:01:56donor-driven framework I've seen other groups where you say the wrong thing and you get kicked out and your donor money
1:02:02gets pulled you know for people very close to us have been kicked out of you know the Roosevelt Institute and things
1:02:08for not towing a party line or the Washington Center for Equitable growth or um and then groups like ined and things
1:02:15are are fully kind of pushing influence through the the weight of the money that
1:02:21they have and at least from my perspective the the mmt community does does not have a does not have a
1:02:28disciplining Rod driven by the money but somehow is sort of managed to have a very outsized influence and I think one
1:02:34of the ways that that's happened is through a lot of very creative and careful material production
1:02:43I often say to others it really annoys me that of all the groups out there that
1:02:48make their materials very easily accessible the Austrian School that loves to talk about scarcity and that
1:02:53there's no such thing as a free lunch goes out of their way to make all of their materials available to everybody
1:02:59because that's what you do when you kind of proselytize and in the early days of
1:03:04mmt it was sort of possible perhaps to have a single repository of all the scholarship of all of the Articles out
1:03:11there or something you know approximating a pretty big chunk but as it keeps growing and becoming more
1:03:17diffuse I get the worry that there's a lot of people out there spreading you
1:03:22know mischaracterizations of mmt and then there's a lot of siled aspects of mmt
1:03:30scholarship that that isn't coming together do you do you sort of see any
1:03:36particular possibilities challenges are there things that you've thought about on that front how we how we keep a
1:03:42coherence to what mmt is in the face of it growing of a larger on one hand but also
1:03:48ever more people deciding they can talk about what it is and and what what it
1:03:53means to have some sort of you know Integrity to the boundary of the body of work
1:04:02no I think it's too big I think I think it's too big and I don't really want to
1:04:10try to think about electing you know Gatekeepers people I've heard proposals
1:04:16over the years of trying to come up with a way to certify this is mmt certified
1:04:23someone has read what this mmt adjacent person is doing or has written there's
1:04:29some chance that someone will read that and think oh that's part of mmt but if
1:04:34it's not sanctioned from on high and someone hasn't signed off on it then it
1:04:40can't be welcomed into the sort of broader mmt scholarship I just don't
1:04:46think we can and I don't think we would want to I don't want to try to police what others are doing in a way that says
1:04:54yes you're in no you're out you know it's too big it's it's too big at this point you've got lots of people who've
1:05:00never had a college course from anybody you know who has contributed to the
1:05:07scholarship or could be considered an mmt scholar or or whatever but they're
1:05:12out there writing all kinds of stuff and maybe they're calling it mmt and who's you know what are we supposed to do go
1:05:19out and chase after everybody who's who's out there I just
1:05:24it's it's gotten too big I don't think we can do that uh is it a problem yes
1:05:30because someone will read and it happens to me all the time and I know it happens to you someone will quote back something
1:05:36and say well this is M and tears want this or mmt says this they're quoting
1:05:42someone I've never heard of before but I don't know how to I don't think there's a way to
1:05:49stop that from happening unless you've thought of something I haven't thought of no I haven't and you know I think
1:05:55about ways in which we can as much as possible people who do share common values and things to speak with one
1:06:02voice in ways you know putting multiple names on on documents and things but I think you're right you know the
1:06:07alternative of kind of a casserole approach or a or a kind of authoritarian
1:06:12boundary has its own problems that may actually outweigh whatever the problem you're trying to
1:06:18to fix there is and and certainly one of the ways that I've tried to deal with this and maybe you know curious if you
1:06:24have any thoughts about that is we often talk about what is mmt well on one hand it's a set of principles on the other
1:06:30hand it's a sort of lens or a framework that you can then apply to other issues
1:06:36um and I also say I think on another level it's a group of people it's a sociological thing it's a it's a
1:06:41practicing Community just like the law is in one sense what lawyers do or what
1:06:47people who are involved in the law do and um I think that's the the part where to
1:06:54me that that difficult question of what are the boundaries of the ideas bleeds into
1:06:59what is the community we're trying to build you know who who is welcome in that Community what are the spaces that
1:07:06that we want to make people feel like you know this this kind of behavior is not acceptable not not because it's
1:07:12intellectually problematic or maybe it may be but but because we're getting up
1:07:17every day choosing who we want to work with and it matters you know to choose
1:07:22people who aren't trying to do things that we don't agree with um so I guess maybe another kind of
1:07:28follow-on to that is do you do you see kind of
1:07:34ways in which the mmt community can have a set of values as well as ideas that we can commit to
1:07:43is there a sense not not political in a partisan sense but in a valued sense way
1:07:49in which you identify you know who you work with or what you're trying to do
1:07:54obviously I assume you wouldn't be going to Bernie Sanders if you're a trump supporter or if you kind of you know
1:08:00don't that kind of thing but are there other are there other ways in which you see this community having a coherence in
1:08:06its values
1:08:11on one level yes I but on another level no it's too
1:08:17big now Rowan it's so it's so big and even within the broader mmt even even
1:08:27within I should say that tighter mmt Community there are
1:08:32um people who make decisions about how to comport
1:08:39themselves in other groups that I don't it puts me off I guess and I don't think
1:08:47it's helpful to the larger Community when you're trying to win hearts and minds and
1:08:53um but we share so I mean if we're Venn diagrams right we're we're overlapping
1:09:0195 percent of the way but but in some important there are some important value
1:09:07differences in the way we treat other members of the community sometimes that
1:09:14so but I don't know I don't uh I don't think we can have there's no mmt code of
1:09:20conduct there's no mmt value statement that everybody's gonna sign on to and and we're different we
1:09:27have differences um I just think it's inevitable I don't know I'm maybe I'm not
1:09:35I'm not answering your questions no I think you are I think I appreciate the honesty and I think it's an easy question I didn't sort of expect to have
1:09:42an answer that would sort of satisfy it no and and for me at least you know coming from the Australian context we
1:09:49have political parties that have factions that have clearly defined you know antagonistic roles label left labor
1:09:56right and things like that and there's a sense in which you don't consider them part of your same you know shared values
1:10:02but there's also a sense in which there's a larger enemy in in whatever particular context and at least to me
1:10:08that seems to be part of this challenge is trying to work out how many lesser
1:10:14enemies that you would be would be needing to be on the same side within particular rooms or trying to work out
1:10:19which fights matter on a particular day um but thinking about yeah like there's
1:10:26what is so hard about letting things go when you know you're gonna
1:10:33see one of your you know someone in the mmt community do something say something
1:10:39you think they get it wrong you think they you have a choice in that moment you know to make a big public spectacle
1:10:46out of it or to just let it go and find something bigger to worry about in your
1:10:52life or to have a private word I mean I guess there are those those are the three options and I think you have to
1:10:59understand that you know having broad alignment and a
1:11:04shared commitment to trying to you know lean in to this effort
1:11:12is a lot and if you're not there a hundred percent and you're making mistakes five percent of the time maybe
1:11:19it's not worth you know making a big production out of it
1:11:25um but on important things values you know
1:11:30sometimes you have to right you do you need an intervention sometimes it's worth calling somebody out because it's
1:11:38it's a real problem but I think a lot of the time there's just a lot of pettiness
1:11:44that gets gets in the way and and at least to me there's a
1:11:49difference when we're talking about people who've got personal values and people where those values are actually influencing the direction of the mmt
1:11:56community you know I like to say we're the ones if we're the ones turning up and doing the work we're the ones who
1:12:01are the same weather Direction goes and to me there's certain communities certain groups that I want to make sure
1:12:07feel welcomed in this community and if others are not doing that then we have a difference in and direction we want to
1:12:13go and that that is Meaningful it is Meaningful where we choose to you know allocate our resources our time our
1:12:20attention and things like that but again I think your your broader point which is the term memory itself to to be boundary
1:12:28policing that would have a very very uh a large set of secondary implications
1:12:34that go beyond saying well I don't want to work with those people I don't want to be in institutions with those people
1:12:39but to start defining what isn't is an mmt in that sense can have a a larger
1:12:46um a larger kind of Castle or authoritarian limiting effect but on this question of
1:12:51kind of priorities there one of the things that I've experienced I've been trying to struggle with this is there was a moment at the end of or the
1:12:58beginning I would say of last year where we had come off the back of a fair bit of campaigning around the job guarantee
1:13:04you know people even not just Sanders but others in the presidential campaign were contemplating talking about it you
1:13:10know um Cory Booker had a version of it Jilla Brown was talking about it uh and even
1:13:17people like hick and Looper were coming out against it uh and then of course
1:13:22Biden got in and even though in many respects his team some of his members were were open to other aspects of the
1:13:29mmt sort of framework that that interest in the job guarantee kind of fell by the
1:13:35wayside and I remember during covert and I was focusing on emergency cash relief I know you were focusing on these big
1:13:40budget questions trying to keep the door open to to a larger spending commitment uh
1:13:46and and pavelina was out there saying you know we need to have a job guarantee in the middle of this and I know you
1:13:51were saying that as well um but it it seems like even as we've
1:13:56had success in some areas there's a there's a sense in which that issue has sort of fallen off or is it is in a
1:14:03retreat moment that it isn't getting much attention do you do you see any
1:14:08green shoots any light at the end of the tunnel any particular you know openings for that in in any of
1:14:16the work that you're doing in any of the spaces you're in is is it just a sort of sense in which the pendulum has to swing
1:14:22one way before it'll swing back or I mean I think and
1:14:32again some momentum in Australia with political parties there embracing and
1:14:38putting this on a a party platform um yeah the labor party just won there
1:14:44and they've been putting a job guarantee on all of their youth party platforms a number of State parties so there's
1:14:49certainly some interesting that's for sure and I think among greens because I I do think that it is it it does become
1:14:57more difficult in an economic environment in which the unemployment rate is hovering around three and a half
1:15:03percent uh to get people thinking what we need as a jobs program right we have
1:15:10everybody's saying look at the number of vacancies relative to the number of um people out looking for work so it's
1:15:17harder in this economic environment where I think it is very much still alive is in you know the climate Justice
1:15:27sort of movement that people who are thinking about all of the the work that
1:15:32needs to be done jobs things that we have to do and do quickly and do on a
1:15:38massive scale and to have this just transition as part of
1:15:44um getting you know Global action on climate uh I still hear job guarantee as
1:15:50part of you know uh as part of that messaging and part of that sort of
1:15:55platform but people like Cory Booker other members of Congress I think
1:16:01probably much less of a sense of urgency given
1:16:07the economic environment and I guess that's that's a good follow-up question is do you you were
1:16:15talking earlier about the fact that mmt for a long time had been orienting its intervention towards an environment of
1:16:21low inflation or sort of persistent under demand uh and and now we have to
1:16:27deal with the other side of that you know the Warren Moses we've already won kind of now we have a new problem to win
1:16:33um do you think there's a different set of concerns now compared to you know
1:16:38even a few years ago when it comes to the job guarantee advocacy as you said we're in low unemployment but we're also
1:16:45experiencing that kind of uh uh run up in inflation before we hit
1:16:52that type full employment barrier and people saying well you know we we haven't got to two percent unemployment
1:16:57but now we need to start calling off the economy and that question of kind of unemployment being the lever to do that
1:17:04or the nairu has come roaring back do you do you see a sense in which this is
1:17:09requires a pivot in our focus of job guarantee advocacy or is it just a matter of
1:17:15you know Finding different coalitional interests here is there any
1:17:21I don't think it requires a pivot I think that
1:17:27that they're I don't think that most people believe that we don't have
1:17:35quote tightful employment today and I don't think that two percent unemployment is what most people right
1:17:42uh are are aiming for when they say I want a tight labor market I think most
1:17:48people think that what we have at the moment is an extremely tight labor market and you know you know this that's
1:17:55what uh chairman Powell sees that's what the rest of the fomc sees that's what
1:18:01most economists probably believe that's what political pundits and others see
1:18:07they see number of vacancies here number Seekers here hence very tight uh labor
1:18:14market so I don't think it requires a pivot I think um you know we're already talking
1:18:20recession this is the the word of you know of the moment everybody is is it
1:18:25going to be this year is it going to be next year is it going to be a deep recession is it going to be somehow v-shaped is it going to be
1:18:31um you saw I'm sure the IMF report that came came out what a week ago where
1:18:37you've got the IMF saying when the next downturn happens we need to start
1:18:42thinking about how we are going to how we want policy makers to respond where you know the report I'm referring to
1:18:48right this IMF report that said we ought to do central banks ought to just be the
1:18:53ones sending out the checks next time you know uh and so that's again turning to this sort of
1:19:01I've called it like the money Cannon right you you just sort of almost indiscriminately but not quite this yeah
1:19:09I believe it calls it pump priming yeah yeah okay so you you want to get cash
1:19:15into people's hands and figure out you know who doesn't who gets left out and then you draw the line somewhere or your
1:19:20means test it you figure out how much to send and you send a bunch of cash um so
1:19:26that I think is itself an opening that keeps the job guarantee as an
1:19:32alternative way to you know have a response to a slowing economy an
1:19:39economic downturn Rising unemployment that's targeted that's counter cyclical
1:19:44that doesn't rely on literally an act of Congress to you know come back and
1:19:50provide stimulus each time that once you get the thing in place then it is there and the payments uh will become
1:19:58automatic and you know how this people know how this works so I think it's uh
1:20:04it's still something that people are are going to consider if only as an
1:20:10alternative to what others are putting forward and to the extent that people
1:20:16can sort of look at these things side by side and say one is targeted one is counter cyclical one doesn't rely on
1:20:23Congress the other now would be in the hands of of unelected right
1:20:29technocrats who are figuring out essentially how to run fiscal what
1:20:34amounts to fiscal policy um do the means testing without being accountable to voters to figure out who
1:20:41gets and who does that's I I welcome that if if we can have you know the job
1:20:48guarantee uh debated in that context of what what
1:20:54how do we want to fortify things going forward you know because
1:21:00the next downturn will come and what kind of policy response do we want when
1:21:06it happens well that's also a nice lead-in which is I thinking about the different ways to
1:21:12try and influence policy at that Federal level not talking about sort of activism and things but on one hand you've got
1:21:18legislation and I've obviously written some and seen exactly how far you can get with some of that and on the other
1:21:24you've got sort of executive action and there's the whole debate right now with President
1:21:29Biden canceling student debt and that's a that's a different set of constraints but I think one thing that comes up a
1:21:36lot in the mmt discourses straddling that dance between executive legit you
1:21:41know action and legislative legitimacy that on one hand we want to be making
1:21:47sure that some of this stuff is recaptured by the legislature we've sort of handed it over too much to certain
1:21:53technocrats who aren't acting in the right set of Interest or with the right framework and in that
1:21:59context maybe with monetary policy taking it back from the agency the FED
1:22:04has a has a positive social value but at the same time and as if you've written before and I think you know history will
1:22:11look at your financial times up here saying that maybe we need an independent fiscal agency is a very important moment
1:22:17in the mmt you know development um that there is a sense in which at the
1:22:23same time some of the criticisms that have come out in recent years have have been based on this crude
1:22:28misunderstanding that mmt wants to reduce everything to legislative action like we're going to have a vote every
1:22:34week in in Congress about what needs to be done for the next week or something and so you know how are there any
1:22:41particular places you see those those two forces that kind of when do we want to put it to an administrative agency or
1:22:47to an executive that can operate nimbly versus when are we trying to kind of claim back some of that decision-making
1:22:55uh to two more sort of discursive Democratic processes um
1:23:03I don't know I mean the executive office has you know fairly broad powers and I
1:23:11think people like Dave Deon right have um assembled something like a hundred
1:23:17things that the bite Administration could do through executive action
1:23:23executive order executive action if they chose to do so so there's a lot that
1:23:29um an elected president can initiate through that office and I'm not
1:23:36sure that I've thought very much about you know when to say well it would be
1:23:42better to run that through Congress obviously that's a part of the debate that's been had over student debt
1:23:48cancellation um but in terms of mmt and
1:23:54um you know elected officials being accountable to voters and saying the way that we
1:24:01currently try to move legislation through Congress and up to the White
1:24:06House is fraught with all kinds of problems and there are these barriers
1:24:12and the Congressional budget office and the budgeting
1:24:17framework that is in place that has lawmakers vetting proposed new spending
1:24:23for the impacts on the deficit and the debt as opposed to vetting major
1:24:30legislation not you know we want to do 5 billion on a youth job guarantee program
1:24:36or 500 million or whatever 25 million here they're not going to
1:24:41um mmt is not there to say you know you have to run this all through some
1:24:47special mmt budgeting frame but for major
1:24:52legislation where we can't get things done because the wheels grind to a halt
1:25:00because cbo's score comes back and says you know it adds too much to the deficit
1:25:05or the bird rule is violated or whatever the case may be that's where I want mmt
1:25:12making inroads in in that process
1:25:17and I guess last question um you know real softball because I've made so many easy questions it's just uh
1:25:24the title of this talk was where do we go from here so are there any kind of big picture last things you'd like to leave the broader Community students
1:25:31people who might be watching this video in the upcoming months you know where where would you like to see
1:25:36mmt go from here just anything that we haven't already talked about or just the big takeaways for you and you're kind of
1:25:42thinking about next steps what would the big win look like at the end of this year or in a few
1:25:48years time or something like that I mean for me the big win if we're going to talk about a big win
1:25:54a big win for me is Meaningful action on climate what
1:26:00what else what else is there that's bigger than that so you know maybe that we'll see
1:26:08ten thousand dollars of student debt canceled for uh a lot of people that's going to feel
1:26:15like a big win for someone who has exactly ten thousand dollars student loan debt
1:26:21um but the big the big win for me is it we're so far from where I would like to
1:26:28see us and so to the students and to you know everybody else that you just
1:26:33mentioned uh we have a lot of work to do and a long way to go and I know that
1:26:39there are people out there Andres Bernal is is kind of a tireless
1:26:45um you know force of nature out there working with uh candidates and I know
1:26:52that many of you are as well but finding people who are willing to run for office which is just one of the hardest things
1:26:59that a person can do the amount of work that's involved
1:27:04um you know running for office very very hard and he is someone that I know has
1:27:10been working with candidates trying to get them up to speed um mmt kind of informed uh we need to
1:27:20see a a much bigger Coalition of people in Congress who you know can think
1:27:29differently can remember what it felt like frankly in 2020 to pass the cares act or to pass
1:27:38the American Rescue plan act in March of 2021 I talked with some lawmakers I
1:27:44talked with some lawmakers who were emotional I mean absolutely emotional
1:27:51after passing that legislation because they understood what an incredible
1:27:57impact they were about to have on the lives of millions of people remember lifting 40 percent of all the kids in
1:28:04this country out of poverty with a single provision in that bill they now know what it feels like to be able to do
1:28:12something like that and I know a lot of them don't ever want to go back to what
1:28:17it was like in the bad old days when you thought you couldn't afford to do anything when the deficit had to be the
1:28:23priority and the kids and planet and everything else is secondary to concerns
1:28:29about you know looking after the budget and I just hope that we can you know
1:28:36that this bout of inflation doesn't ultimately
1:28:42um you know lead to the two steps back after the two steps forward because we had the wind in
1:28:49our backs and um and I think we just have to keep pushing
1:28:55well that's a great moment I think to end thank you so much for the time thank you for the friend conversation I very much appreciate us you know being able
1:29:01to talk about what's going on within the community in in an open way with everybody and thanks for everybody who's
1:29:07participated and attended the various events of this conference as Stephanie
1:29:12said we'll try to make sure to have it in person next time but it's been a pleasure please stay involved if you
1:29:18want to get further involved with the modern Money Network feel free to reach out uh otherwise see you on the other
1:29:24side thanks to everybody
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