Ep. 59: It Is Not Necessary To Hope In Order To Persevere (feat. James K... 2020
in ways which
we've only I think just begun to grasp
and that no amount of bailing out the
industries can stall right because how
do you bailout the human mind that says
don't get on a cruise ship or right
exactly I mean of course that's a minor
case and those ships are are not
registered in the United States and
that's a scandal that they're bailed out
in the first place right they they they
have been invaders of u.s. regulations
and labor standards and everything else
for many many years but the airline
industry is another thing we've become
very customed to a lot of international
travel and how do you persuade people
that destinations are safe when there's
something like this this has happened as
a long time it is gonna be a long time
dr. Zeke Emanuel who spent many years at
the NIH and now runs the public health
Division they're the University of
Pennsylvania and he has said and nobody
wants to hear this that I understand why
they don't that this is a at least a two
year pandemic the virus will never truly
leave just like I mentioned yesterday in
yesterday's podcast that the bubonic
plague is actually still with us there's
about a thousand cases a year but we
have medicine and treatments and things
like that where it doesn't it doesn't
spread and you know people survive it
but the plague has been with us for you
know I don't know five five hundred plus
years now
so I don't want to get out of plane
anytime soon I don't you know I don't
even after were through the first wave
of this he said this is gonna go for two
years it's gonna be a series of you know
there's gonna it's gonna peak and it'll
go down and then we come out of the
house for a few months until it comes
back and then we got to go back in the
house until it dies down which it will
and each time it'll get weaker and maybe
by the third wave of it you know we'll
be fairly safe nonetheless our life life
as we knew it is completely altered at
this point I think that's I think that's
entirely plausible that we existed in a
world where we did not take this kind of
thing into account we now exist in a
world where we have to take it into
account and the task is always going to
be to make sure that we are to try to
make sure that we have the adequate
adequate medical capacity.
and the
adequate capacity to to get as a social
matter to get through these periods when
we have to shelter in place when we have
to do what we're doing now we are only
beginning to confront the task of
getting organized in order to do that
we're much less well prepared much less
well set up in societies which have
organized themselves differently when
it's clear that while the Chinese had a
bit of a slow start they were able to
mobilize the entire population they were
able to enforce a quarantine and they
were able to keep people supplied so
they were able to come through this
suppress the virus
obviously it's a continuing risk in
China as everywhere.
but they were able
then to begin to bring back the crucial
capacities medical supplies that they're
now producing and shipping all over the
world and this is only at a matter of
months but they were extremely well
organized to do that what we've done and
really a South product of the of the
neoliberal era of the of the era of
free-market economics since the late
1970s is we've stretched our supply
lines we've yeah we constantly minimize
cost constantly put things out to where
we could get the cheapest and fastest
sourcing of things and as a result we
well things were in fact provided in
this country very efficiently and very
well inexpensively by comparison with
what they could be it's also a very
fragile system and subject to disruption
and it is being disrupted and we're
going to discover the consequences of
not having the reserve capacity and we
have to get organized very quickly to
restore that or we're gonna you know
suffer even more and there are lots of
aspects of this medical supply chains
but also I would say food and basic
medicines and these things have to be
really change the way we think about the
what's essential in our lives when you
say we've done this the the system we've
created has been created based on trying
to get things cheaply quickly and and of
course we're always sold that this is
this is the best way because they passed
that they passed that cheap cost onto us
the consumer and and so we get to buy a
lot of crap sorry it's not all crap I am
happy to have this iPhone I will admit
that it per for it performs a function
for me nonetheless I'm on an iPhone 7 I
don't believe I'd never believe that you
should be buying you know you got to get
the eight because it's the heats out not
gonna get the dying because the iPhone
nines out now now it's the 11 you know
but at some point II the 7 doesn't work
and you gotta you gotta get the next one
I mean how would you describe this
system that we've built this consumer
culture that we've created
and that's only one piece of this
because there's other things I don't
consider part of that that that consumer
excess or that the way that we live I'm
having to buy the next great thing just
to have the next great thing there are
things that we like you said the basic
things to survive the food distribution
system how we make our grow grow our
food make it distribute it how we
transport ourselves is important I'm not
you know not a big fan of the airlines
but nonetheless how are we going to get
from A to B um you know what's I mean
well it seems so overwhelming to me and
I know and I want you to explain this
against the people listening explain it
to me I you know I have a high school
education many of these things will have
to be reconsidered.
and redesigned oh
they wake up I want could start
compiling a list and I could only come
up with a few examples but you think of
all the service establishments that we
have restaurants which are typically
very crowded they're crowded because
that gets restaurant a chance to have
more customers and to make its cover its
costs and if you implement social
distancing even when you open up the
restaurants they're going to be able to
handle many fewer people question is are
they viable that's going to cause us to
rethink how we do that kind of food
delivery I imagine we think about all
the things that involve crowds and just
to think about concerts and political
and any kind of a big ground event.
two
movie theaters these these things are
going to have to be there first of them
have to be held off for quite a period
of time to think about alternative ways
to have those kinds of enriching
cultural experiences or for fun for that
matter and no end and when they if they
do come back they're gonna have to come
back very carefully so that oh we have
all kinds of capacities that we haven't
we're going to need we're going to need
people to know to to monitor and check
people's health status in the way that
we have not had
in order to maintain control of this
once we get it under control in the
first place if we can manage that much
what do you know that you know like if
you want to go to the theater you're
they're gonna take your temperature at
the door and including it absolutely
every building you walk into in China
someone takes your temperature
absolutely so we're gonna have to do
that for a while we're gonna well if we
don't get it done we're gonna end up
with more outbreaks more shelter in
place than we might otherwise be able to
get away with testing testing is
obviously something we've botched badly
so far we don't have adequate testing
but when we get the testing capacity up
then we're going to need people to - to
staff and manage the testing operations
and that's going to be a large-scale
ongoing activity so one one can think
about all kinds of things so we're going
to have work that people need to need to
do but even before that as we go through
this we think about all of these people
who are really the worst treated workers
in our society people who check out
clerks or stalkers or security guards or
people who keep people work in the
warehouses and do the package things and
ship all of these people are now the
most essential workers we have after
healthcare workers say they are the ones
we're relying on to keep us supplied and
to keep everybody calm and in their
houses Oh during this period and we need
to pay the more we need to protect them
medically we need to cover their medical
costs so again one one it's only
beginning to think about the kind of
reorganization that we need to have to
put the core values back where they
where they need to be and I'm not going
to you know derogate you know people's
consumption preferences and so forth and
they ordinary it's fewer things that
will change some but we've also had an
economy that is called the plutonomy
which is a large share of consumption
being essentially directed to a very
small share of the population with
extraordinarily extraordinarily wealthy
oh and the whole design of you know
high-end housing and and and the kinds
of of goods that have been
going into that that's also going to be
a problematic mm-hmm the plutonomy just
for people so they understand what you
mean by that the plutonomy oh it just it
just means an economy driven by the
consumption habits of very rich people
it's actually a bad term that was
invented I think by economists at
Citibank it's a rather good one at
describing the way the economy has been
oriented toward the extremely wealthy Oh
now one let me come back to another
point though because this really perhaps
before we get there we're going to have
to go through a major decision about
what to do about all people's debts and
this is going to be the financial crisis
but on a very much larger scale we have
people been piling up debts heavily of
course in the course of this expansion
of student debt and credit card debt an
automobile debt and housing to end.
every
kind of debt the corporations have been
piling up a lot of debt and goodbye work
to a substantial set because that's a
way to get money to buy back their stock
and keep their stock prices up and as
income Falls and revenue Falls and even
if people are first of all the first
thing that has to happen is that we
people people sheltered their bills are
going to have to be deferred mortgages
their rent their utility bills and there
can't be any evictions or foreclosures
or utility stashes that has to be
stopped or otherwise we're not going to
cover do you be able to deal with the
health problem and then when we start up
again those people those incomes are not
coming going to come back to cover those
debts so they those debts are going to
have to be resolved and the if they're
not resolved the people who have made
money in this crisis are going to come
and snatch up properties and you're
going to have hedge funds buying houses
on a scale never before seen they're
already started after the crisis the
last crisis this kind of thing is going
to be a social decision we have to make
do you want the society to become
essentially an armies of people who are
out on the
treat it will not last that way so that
has to be dealt with the right way to
think about it is so this is a war and
in a war allies do not charge each other
for the cost of the war you have to you
have to make sure that those debts in
fact are forgiven and then we can reset
the whole financial system but that's
going to be a very big political
decision which would require a you know
a since they come to Jesus moment on
both political parties because they have
not really been able to face it yet many
of them of course being paid by the gut
by the people on the other Sun and by
the people who are the yes the are owed
the money and when they want their money
yeah sure oh and you know this good
think about for example our secretary of
the Treasury he was he was the guy who
who but they turned to Andy Mac into a
into a foreclosure mill right this is
not cannot be allowed to happen again
you know there's a good chance he will
get another four years I mean I'm sorry
to have to say that out loud let me spit
on the ground there we go all right
there's there's always been that
possibility
yeah how do we get service how do we get
through this seriously
how will we ever recover from this if if
he's in the White House for four more
years well that's a problem we'd have to
face if we have to face it the crucial
question is right now is will there be a
viable democratic party alternative it's
not obvious to me that even though he's
in a commanding position so far that
there will be a majority of Delegates
for Joe Biden when he get when when I
convention time come and of course it's
not obvious in fact it's pretty clear
that there won't be a convention in the
traditional sense right now because you
can't break the you know all of the
leadership of a political party to one
place and put them in close quarters for
three days under these circumstances
it's obviously impossible
so thinking about how as I say has it
need a few of them that I know I would
have them there yeah yeah we can say
them as The Mikado it'll surely not be
missed but let's write no but you know I
wish no less than anyone
nobody would wish that but in Haven it's
clearly not going to happen in either
party obviously the Republicans will do
what they're going to do but the
Democrats have to face a number of s of
challenges about this particular
situation and what are they what are the
what do the Democrats have to face
head-on right now well right now I mean
with that the party is divided the
leading candidate has obvious questions
about his capabilities it seems to me
that when you're looking at effective
leadership in this crisis you need to
have people who are on the front lines
who are dealing with it who have
leadership capacity who are it touched
with the real world and who have are
expressing and carrying out the values
that we know are important now there are
such people they are emerging but the
fact is they're not going to emerge out
of the United States Senate they're
going to emerge from the governor's
because those are the people who are
able to show leadership right now and we
really have to rethink what we're going
to do is I mean what the Democrats have
to think what they're going to do is a
party because they're clearly on on a
path that is exceedingly dangerous and
if you have two candidates out there who
are extremely doubtful in the capacity
the fact is that the federal government
cannot be held together for another four
years in any at any recognizable form if
the federal government is not held
together the country will not stay
together in any serious way.
when we're
really looking at already a major shift
to the state level in terms of where the
leadership is and someone has to come
out of that in order to take control of
the whole country and make the federal
government function effectively that is
what happened in 1933 governor of New
York came out of the came out of the
state administration where he'd been
dealing with the depression for four
years and he took control of the
National
and he had a team no which had you know
imagination and administrative capacity
and he was able to raise that to the
federal level and get things going you
know in a way that was addressed to the
actual problems than it was not
subservient to the financial interests
that had failed we have much less time
to achieve the same effect but that's
that's the task for us now all right so
for you know the people who are
listening to this podcast and you know
they have they have the everyday work a
day job and they're at home they've been
furloughed they've been laid off they've
had no they've had no word first of all
that their health insurance is going to
continue they will get unemployment
insurance but they don't know if a month
from now they'll still have health care
just that one thing I've heard that from
so many people there so of all the times
that you might need your health
insurance it would be right now and and
for people to be I mean they're in this
tear they're in this place of terror
that that their insurance now runs out
because they're unemployed and and
something happens and I know the
government the federal government said
we're gonna take care of anybody who
gets this gets this virus but there's no
there's no piece of paper there's no I
haven't seen anything that will assure
people that if they get sick and plus
you're gonna have to prove that it was
the virus too you know the insurance
companies are you what what if you're in
for some kind of heart failure what if
you're in for something else and the
insurance oh it's just absolutely
absolutely if the hospitals are and have
no capacity they have no capacity for
anything and people of course have many
many healthcare demands at this point
and if they have no income and they have
no insurance this is a blockage of the
insurance companies are having
difficulty dealing with the demands that
they even from the people who are
insured I read the other day that in
some situations people in hospital beds
who are ready to go out can't leave and
go to a rehab
facility because the insurance companies
can't get the approvals done for that so
they're occupying beds that are
desperately needed it's this this is a
system which is in the process of
disintegrating and it's it's now I think
very obvious that a major emergency
change is going to have to be made so
that people can get that off their minds
and be assured that within the limits of
the capacity to provide the care that
they can get care and that they don't
have to they won't be bankrupted that
they don't have to pay for it so our
sometimes are not done with the work
that they have to do to protect people
oh no no no oh no it's it's and they
they they what they did this last bill
was that they responded to the pressures
on them from their lobbyists and from
their contributors and they did a little
bit of what they usually do in a slump
they they they threw some money at
ordinary Americans not in my view the
least efficient way to get this done uh
and uh they and then they said gee two
trillion is a big big chunk of change
which is not entirely false oh and but
they they weren't they did very little
for the medical supply chain they did
nothing for the health care system they
didn't fix the problem of not being able
to hold elections that having had
elections have to go to vote by mail
there are many many things that they
didn't fix so they've got to start
working right now.
and what I hope
working with a with a clearer mindset
about what is required and not not
following the same playbook that they
followed with with it with the third
with the third bill the fourth one
really has to be you know focused on the
emergency and and and doing what the
health care professionals say is
necessary
doing what's necessary to protect the
supply chain doing what's necessary to
get people to went to a place where
they're secure enough to to shelter in
place without without the kind of fears
and anxieties you've just described
Ireland just nationalized their health
care system they said we're going over
to a single system a single public
system when when did they do that oh
just about in the last few days
Oh your power so the iron
has me nationalize it like the UK is now
is has a national health care system
yeah yeah the Irish had a kind of a
mixed system they had private health
hospitals and so forth they've taken
over them all this is all those Catholic
hospitals in Ireland they've just taken
over the whole thing
they have nationalized the hospitals in
our while I was correct and they had to
do that because because as that's the
only way to guarantee the capacity we'll
be there to make hope that the capacity
will be adequate for what's required and
that everybody has equal access to it
Wow you know we're in a situation here
where where you look around Europe and
you say okay what is going on in Italy
we have three countries that have
provided aid to Italy and they don't
include Germany they don't include the
United States they first the big one is
China and it was a team from my wife's
home province of Fujian flow into
lombardi setting up facilities there and
there was a there's a medical Brigade
from Cuba doing setting up a field
hospital in Long Beach
well running a field hospital in
Lombardi right now I mean you could
imagine from Cuba and one of the richest
province is certainly the richest one in
Italy one of the richest ones in Europe
mm ah and the third one is Russia which
has been sending convoys of aid where
are we
we're in a mired in trend in a desperate
situation trying to get our own act
together and and mercifully that uh this
is we've we've reopened channels of
communication and cooperation with China
which is started yesterday sending plane
loads of supplies that are critically
needed in New York Los Angeles and other
cities they'll come in and that's you
know that shows you that we have to help
each other they said and we have to
recognize that when we that you know the
benefit of being able to receive these
things of the short-run and the
necessity to make sure that we're better
protected than long-run there's no way
we'd be able to help Italy at this point
now is there I mean that's no of course
not no yes not but you know when the
fact is there are other countries out
there that are doing it
the reason they're able to do it is that
they were better prepared all along hmm
yeah we should we call up Cuba and ask
for some help I mean and I know that's
not going to happen but you here well
you're you're the expert on Cuban
medical care you probably know as much
about it as any American yes I know
no they are very happy to send they have
so many they trained so many doctors I
mean their goal is to have a doctor in
every neighborhood and and it's the
truth I mean they they have an
incredible medical system medical
schools and they supply doctors
throughout Latin America I mean it's I
know any country you go to in South
America Central America there are Cuban
doctors there they are the lifeblood of
their systems.
and you know but I guess
you can't bring that up now in this
country because I don't see why not
I mean I'm sorry I know I'm but the
reality is the reality yes there's a
Cuban Cuban field hospital in northern
Italy at this moment that is the reality
and and yet and yet one of the
Democratic presidential candidates
beginning with being asked that question
by Anderson Cooper on 60 minutes about
why would you say anything good about
Cuba and the candidate goes well because
just like pretty much what your
grandmother told you you know if you
can't say something nice about somebody
you actually most people even the worst
people you know have maybe one redeeming
quality in this case you know with Cuba
you have a number of things that they've
done for their people and then they hell
they've helped other people and well
anyways yeah well it's a it's a it's
simply a category or a big mistake to
project everything on to the leadership
of a country there's a sir degree of
social organization and the
professionalism in the Cuban health care
system into the Chinese healthcare
system and you and and priority to these
things which means as you say that they
have enough
they have all trained a lot of doctors
and nurses and they're able then to
deploy as needed how to deal with them
health crisis of the whole population
you know they were again to come back to
China of the case that we've been
following closely from from my my wife's
province 1200 medical personnel went
into Wuhan right into the into the
Maelstrom and pitched in mm-hmm
there's you know fantastic how brave
these people are and how determined they
are very brave - yeah - get it done yeah
yeah I do you don't have to like the
Chinese government or the or the or the
CCP or what have you to understand this
is an organizational capacity that any
country under any system needs to have
in order to deal effectively and by the
way the United States has had it in the
past we were the most efficient country
of the world at getting mobilized to
fight the Second World War and we were
able to pull that together and the
reason we were that we'd spent the
previous decade of the 1930s building
the infrastructure creating a kind of
national esprit de corps national spirit
which MIT could could be mobilized in
order to meet that challenge we've
become you know very we've the system
that we've had in the last 40 years is
very different from that system so I'm
not asking that we think about you know
importing something from some other
country we ought to go back to our own
traditions and deal with it I can tell
you another story if you've got a second
yeah please ma'am my father was involved
in this and he'd come from Canada the
1930s in the 1939-40 he was working for
the National Defense Advisory Commission
and the office of Price Administration
civilian supplying right after the Pearl
Harbor December 7th 1941 two days later
there was a meeting to discuss critical
materials which according to my parents
they went down the list alphabetically
which was very slow until they got to
our and then the light went on in
people's brains and the word rubber came
to mind and of course the Japanese were
at Malaya practically by that point and
so my father left the meeting with a
lawyer by the name of day
at Ginsberg a very prominent lawyer
later in life and he hated and Ginsburg
wrote an order banning the sale of
rubber part tires in the United States
and that kicker was they didn't work for
the agency that has power to enforce
that order which was the one production
board so they walked it around to the
commissioners and they said here's the
rubber order sign it which they did
you're not asking who the people were
who were asking and they walked back to
their office in this other agency.
and
call the network so the next morning
rubber tires were not for sale in the
United States they were all conserved
for the Ascension it hasn't that quick
overnight overnight they went by the
service station in Alexandria Virginia
the next morning and rubber tires were
not for sale Wow okay so so December 7th
is Pearl Harbor this meeting takes place
on December 9th that's right and by
we're talking what day Monday morning a
tenth of December by the 10th of
December they've shut down the rubber
for tires because we need the rubber for
the war effort and thereby shutting down
that fort for essential purposes I mean
it wasn't all right the war effort right
but by such that was the but that was
the end of making cars so oh yeah then
they put a stop order on yours very soon
and and I think it was Ford defied the
order and continued to produce a produce
250,000 automobiles because they were
profitable the government confiscated
them and that became the government
fleet for the rest of the war oh the
other thing my dad did was say he was
responsible for a 35 mile an hour speed
limit to serve safe gasoline having had
the governor's to get the one what two
governors declined to enforce that one
of them was was Texas as Pappy O'Daniel
said professor I understand what you're
saying but in Texas you go 35 miles an
hour you don't get there what happened
to us what happened to that kind of like
oh it's still there we've got a glass
I definitely believe is still there I
can see it happening I saw it you know
you can see it happening with the Javits
Center being converted to a field
hospital there's a huge amount of
competence in this country the problem
is it's not at the federal
and not at the federal level in either
party you know and that is what has to
be changed that has to be changed very
very quickly now we need to have to kind
of recover the kind of administrative
capacity of competence that you can see
in mayor's in cities around the country
and and in governors of both parties
actually of trying to do the best under
these circumstances but they're caught
they're obviously at the top we're ring
run by a run into the ground by an
oligarchy and this is true in the 1920s
as well that's why Herbert Hoover
couldn't get us out of the depression it
took it took a change and it took a
powerful personality and someone who was
prepared to to reset the evalu system at
the federal capital so how are we gonna
make that happen because you know I
think we know it isn't Biden and you
know some of us obviously we want Bernie
but it the other side is the other part
of the party isn't going to accept
Bernie so it may not be honored love
birthday and I've supported him for five
solid years yeah every way I could but
we don't have to I think we everybody
really knows what's right possible and
what's not possible right okay so what
does that mean them what do we what do
we do between now and me and the virtual
convention that's probably gonna have to
take place well people need to come to
their own conclusions and I but I think
the first thing one has to recognize is
that what we have coming out of this is
not liable and so once you do that then
I think fairly obvious conclusions
present yourselves you have to ask who
would be viable and you know that that's
a question that how do you get to the
proof from where we are now to the
position of having someone who has
capacity to handle this crisis yeah is
not just about who can get elected it's
we need it needs to be the person that
can handle this crisis and take it like
FDR did and and and beat it when it do
whatever and then come out of this in
some come out of the collapse come out
of the you know the devastation of this
in some way that we can rebuild or
people can rebuild communities
businesses of their lives whatever
whatever it takes you know who's gonna
who is that person that
the majority of Americans are going to
you know follow into battle to make this
happen well so you know again people
need to come to their conclusions but
ask the question who's on the front
lines doing a good job right now
well I sorry let's just lets us know the
gay there is the dolphin in the right
answers to that are gonna be obvious
they're obviously they're very obvious
answers to that and and and and I'll be
the first to admit that while you know
probably the first person that's coming
to mind is somebody I haven't
necessarily supported in the past
doesn't necessarily share my politics
but I'll tell you I've been so and we
are talking about the governor of New
York I am talking about the governor New
York I've been so impressed because I am
now quarantined I'm here ensconced in
New York City in the midst of of this
devastation and it's the only good
moment of the day that you start to feel
like something's happening and
somebody's going to make it happen and
it's it's and and maybe that as
California sadly is very soon now going
to experience perhaps what New York has
experienced gavin newsom may step
forward.
and people will see that there's
another person that is smart and can
raise a bit it may be and I heard
Governor Cuomo's speech at the Javits
Center I would recommend that everybody
look it up on the ABC News site where I
saw it was oh you know they tell you
tell you people's values and their
capacities emerge at this particular
this at this point at this month and
this in this kind of situation and I
would argue that only someone who has
who can persuade the American public
that they are up to dealing with this
challenge has any really serious chance
of defeating the incumbent just becomes
a requirement for going forward in a
serious way see there are people right
now listening to this and they're going
Mike James please Cuomo said a good job
of you know convincing
to help to send things here send the big
boat whatever and if you're trying to
imply that this may help defeat from
well as he showed to the governor of
Michigan
you know what raise my up I'm not I'm
not yeah you know and I'm holding back a
little bit on it because it's it's
really a problem right now for the
Democratic Party yeah to to understand
where that they have to make a choice of
what their value is actually are in this
situation they really and the fact that
this is not a beauty contests and it's
not a question of whether you can make a
television speech it's a question of
showing something much more profound and
an important because the country needs
to be led it clearly clearly needs to be
led in an honest capable and capable way
and toward a set of values which
preserve us as a country and as a
society it's nothing less than that so
should I edit this part of the podcast
out of the podcast because I I I'm a
Trump Trump Trump certainly down junior
pays some attention to me what I write
on social media and what I do and
they're they've tweeted at me a number
of times so I'm aware that they're aware
and the last thing I want to do because
I just think that Cuomo has played this
so well in telling Trump what he needs
to hear and it's kind of like all you
got to do is just say the words and
that's it doesn't matter whether you
mean them or not it's just enough and
[Music]
you know you know I don't think yeah I
don't think you can judge what people
really mean what you can judge is is how
they speak to other people and how they
you know lots of things of that you know
what decisions they're making and how
they're focused on they on the on the
true issues in this problem in a way
that reflects the grasp of reality and a
capacity to manage these kinds of things
I seem to be able really what's
important well yeah but we know what
that means we know that there's one
person who's in the White House who
doesn't understand how to do this even
if he wanted to we all can see that he
doesn't know how to do it
like put aside all your feelings that
anybody might have about individual in
charge once you realize and I don't know
if he's realized that once you realized
that holy
we're in deep deep trouble now you know
well it's I think we'd get a soft track
to engage in the conversation about the
incumbent president so should I call
should I cut this out in the back ass
I'm not it's not my priority I am but as
a someone who's try to focus on the on
what is required here it's probably not
necessary my views of this no that's ok
I I speak my own views they're my views
I'll make that clear I've never cut
anything out I've never filtered
anything out of this so I'll just say
that these are my opinions and my
feelings and not necessarily yours but
but you mean it's just my priority at
the moment is thinking about how first
of all how you organize the economy so
that you can get through this it's
clearly a long term or a medium-term
proposition of proposition of months not
days and it requires us to really close
attention to the supply chain as well as
get the medical supply system up and
running properly those are their most
probably the most urgent economic
priorities and also to make sure that
people have enough resources including
undocumented workers including the one
were low income who are not tax filers
that they have enough resources to keep
themselves safe and provision so that
they're protected I'll tell you an idea
by the way that I think would be really
important here in the Avenue deserves to
be some some some air time that would be
and that is we were easy to implement
well let the communications companies
cable TV Internet and telephone
provide their basic service for free for
the duration of the crisis people need
to be at home their communications need
to be assured that would put some money
and pockets in every household that has
a smartphone or an Internet
action and that doesn't discriminate
according to your legal status or
anything else and you just pay the
telecommunications companies to do it
and that would be of just one of the
fastest ways to get some relief that
would go out very far around the country
and benefit low-income people
proportionately much more than and the
gut what the government would do is the
government would pay people's pay the
companies pay the bills pay the bills
easy and let it just like a few bills
let people have free internet right now
let they may have the communication
devices and systems absolutely they need
the communications they also need to be
at home they need to be entertained they
need to not worry about paying a bill
and it would put a little extra money in
their pockets simple fast it could be
done overnight and it would it would
help you obviously I mean you can cover
the costs of other utilities as well but
those seem to me to be universal and an
extremely useful thing to do yeah - why
it's why I've another way by the way
we're thinking about how to how to
provision people it's much more sensible
to that's business of sending out money
to tax filers it's just a very
inefficient thing to do and it's now
this one is done but in the next move
it's not going to be adequate the next
move whether way to do it for most
people who for people who are wage
earners is to again let the employers
continue to pay them they're not to pay
them a hundred percent as people's our
costs are down but the British are doing
this 80% the Danes are doing 75 and then
the paychecks continue to flow.
and
people don't have to file for
unemployment and they don't have to file
they don't lose their health insurance
and they can stay and they could be
called back when the business is
reopened see this is somewhat open you
point people no you don't keep them up
what they're being paid to stay home but
as I say when the business does is it
continuously sent out the checks it goes
to its banks tell the banks to give
every business a zero percent loan to
cover that mm-hmm
and then I see companies the companies
reclaim it from the government at tax
time it's an easy easy way that when you
may be doing many fewer employers than
there are people we know they know the
government knows who they are because
they all pay taxes they all have a
banker
it's just that's the way to handle wage
workers doesn't help gig workers but
then you free up the unemployment
insurance system so that gig workers can
get on that right right self-employed so
you're tripping right trying to keep
Bill people roughly in the same position
that they were before not to have as a
whole lot of disruption in their lives
not to lose their the health insurance
in the case of wage employees who
covered by their employers and then you
sorted out later on but the government
could do that sending out things to tax
filers way you got a tax return from two
years ago people have had babies maybe
they were in school in 2018 had a low
income it's completely it many ways this
can be very haphazard and of course
paper checks won't go out for weeks no
if you don't have direct deposit if you
don't have a bank account you haven't
wait for a paper check and then you have
to walk to the bank and cash it our to
some place in cash it may be you cash it
and have to pay a stiff fee for that
right terrible way to proceed and it
should not be done again so your way any
better way we'd be there there's so many
other ways to get people to get people
provisioned and again don't you want to
hold them in place
shelter in place mm-hmm safe and secure
that's that should be the objective
there if the if the government would
would give this no interest loan to the
bank to give and the bank gets money
from the Phatak and the bank can extend
that loan at zero percent to the
interest to the to the to their business
and so with the paychecks continue to
flow and then the the in every three
months the business Tots up the bill and
and the government writes a check they
pay back the loan it's easy that's it
Wow yeah it's totally easy I mean it's
just it and you only have you know the
number of businesses is fraction of the
number of people that you're trying to
reach and it flows through a system that
already exists
give me another idea this is there's two
great ideas I wasn't I have to say this
this is not this is not a partisan idea
someone else who came up with it at
exactly the same time as I did was Glenn
Hubbard who was the former chair of the
council under george w bush and i
communicated with him we agreed this is
exactly the way to go
people need to get over the idea that
you don't work through businesses oh and
by the way you don't exclude big
companies half of American workers are
working for companies that oh and have
over 500 employees do it with them as
well I mean there's this that's not a
problem
they if companies are shut down and
people are have lost losing revenue
because they're not producing let them
get reimbursed for the that part of the
wage bill that's people are staying at
home what about when we are no longer at
home we're out of the house we can come
back to work how do we restart this how
to companies who have lost all this
money how do they you know get
especially I'm thinking small businesses
where they how do they rebuild it and
bring people they help I mean some of
them of course are gonna be protected by
the by the bailout funds for a while
anyway but this is going to be a big
problem as companies have watch the
revenue their debts are still there and
of course many of them afterwards that
we talked talking about this are going
to have be in a different economic
position they're not going to have the
same revenue flow through with respect
to their fixed costs that they had
before then airlines have airplanes they
have to maintain and they're not going
to have the passengers to provide the
same level of revenue that they had
before so when think about that and many
many other examples Plus on the other
side of it we're going to need as I said
we're going to need a whole armies of
public health workers and of people to
provide the kinds of safety and security
that we haven't had so the structure of
the economy is going to change and we
need to think about that that's a
problem that we can start thinking about
a few weeks off when we've we've dealt
with the first wave of problems which as
I say as I keep saying we have to get
the they keep the caseload to the below
the point or that's you know just low
enough so that the whole health system
isn't totally overwhelmed if we can
possibly do that
that means the quarantine have to work
and make the quarantines work you have
to have a solid supply chain that people
have
that's it and you have to have a safety
and security in their home which means
people can't be evicted they can't be
foreclosed they can't they have their
utilities cut off those are amongst the
basic things that that need to happen
immediately
you know I've I've read you for years
and one of the things I've really
appreciated reading is how you talk
about the the myths of the free market
the free market system.
the free market
system will save us it's the best way
it's it's so much better and more
efficient than if the government did it
or some sort of public system did it and
and you've written really I think really
important things about this I just
wondered if you'd share some of your
thinking about that because especially
I've been you know thinking about this
whole thing with yeah look I'm my my
grandmother worked on the machine gun
assembly line it AC spark plug which is
part of General Motors in Flint Michigan
during World War two and they turned
that spark plug assembly line making
little spark plugs into making machine
guns in like nothing overnight and and
this whole thing this past week with
General Motors and the trying to get the
ventilators I'm having them and then
whatever fight Trump got into them which
again in my opinion has a lot to do with
the fact that it's being run by a GM is
run by a woman now and in the governor
Michigan is a woman and so he picked the
fight with these two women in Michigan
but but but Syria but here's the thing I
don't understand it it they they tried
to get this going
and it back in your dad's time when they
just took over the rubber industry and
or or they had General Motors start
building planes and tanks and things
like that we can't seem to we're just
chasing our tail here what is going on
what has happened because there was
private enterprise back in the in the
40s I'm sure it was capitalism why he
hasn't capitalism saved us in this
moment why can't we get make these
masks for Christ's sake I just let give
me your thoughts on this because it
seems that that we are witnessing really
right up front up close and personal how
the free market has not only not saved
us here but is really in the way well
what what firms did as they particularly
would a combination of free markets and
globalization was that they and you're
the know as much about this as anybody
in the country they are they outsource
they went to cheaper sources and they
got their their their their various
components their parts their source
chemicals and so forth more more cheaply
than they could before and in some cases
coming from very efficient low-cost
suppliers oh man don't doubt that so
they were taking advantage of the
opportunities that were there to cut
their costs and and the result of that
was in many pieces of the supply chain
were not present are not present in this
country and the at least in the
capacities that we presently need that
wasn't sure with the 1930s they traded
world traded collect first of all was
never world trade had never been in
industrial trade had never been extended
to the global scale and before the 1930s
it was industrial countries were
industrialized in the poor countries for
suppliers of raw materials and tropical
food products so with the world changed
we now have a broadly industrialized
world in which there are low-cost
suppliers who are critical to supply
chains and suddenly the supply chains
buckled oh you know what I did leave
aside the Chinese case India sub
produces a great many generic
pharmaceuticals and when the crisis hit
they banned the export of a certain
number of them because they needed them
for domestic supply and you can see the
same kind of phenomenon happening all
over the world in the case of medical
masks well we were getting a lot of
those from
guess we're from the city of Wuhan and
they needless to say when home Bay was
locked down though that supply was not
available what the Chinese were able to
do and what we have not demonstrated the
capacity was to raise their production
they had a lot of small firms and the
Chinese firms these are not necessarily
state-owned firms over 3,000 firms I
read that went into medical mass
production and there in three weeks they
raised the capacity from 15 million to a
hundred million and I think the number
is per day I can't be entirely sure that
I think it was 100 million tasks today
in three weeks six fold increase in
capacity how'd they do how did they do
that seriously well they have a lot I
mean I can tell you I have a I have a
son in Brattleboro this wife have a
little business which is a it's a
specialty product for for transgender
people and they're converting right now
into medical mass productions I'm
totally proud of them and this is
shapeshifters Limited a Brattleboro
Vermont
my son is wife and oh maybe one or two
employees at the moment Chinese had
3,000 of these sorts of a vast textile
industry right they have a vast apparel
industry so they're producing clothing
for the world it's all cloth and sewing
machines and you get a pattern to make
masks and suddenly you're making them
it's not necessarily the high-tech virus
proof mass but they protect people and
everybody in China is wearing them all
the time so they they were able to move
very quickly into a kind of mass
mobilization to get the medical supplies
that they are you saying it's because we
don't have enough small businesses like
that to do that sort of thing or well it
is there are in fact you know that it's
I think relatively small scale compared
to I mean obviously but very small scale
compared to what the Chinese can do but
there are a lot of self-organization
going on as people try to to throw what
they can into them into this fight but
the reality is Society which was
organized closer to the foundations of
the basics of what people need was more
resilient and arson
which is way we do some things very well
in this country when we obviously have
dominated the a of the software industry
and the information technology and
aerospace and those things but we've
relied on on on the rest of the world to
keep us supplied with with with for
example clothing and it turns out that
that's a capacity which has important
uses.
and we need to maintain obviously
going forward we need to build
sufficient internal capacity so that we
can deal with the kind of crisis that we
really I mean what's gonna be able to
make clothes here so we have to make all
our own clothes but now we have to have
it sound you have to think about what
the what the what the what your your
scenarios are for what's happening now
learn from that experience and and and
make provisions which means that there's
you know there's less for other things
but this is obviously where we've we've
cut everything to the you know the
margins to the bone and that's very
efficient that's what the that's what
the market teaches you to do that's what
every economics class teaches you is the
right thing to do maximize profits
minimize costs but it leaves you fragile
at least you break prone to a breakdown
and that's that that's the thing what
we're seeing going forward we have to
think about how to how'd it how to how
to share these capacities and how to
make up for what is all you know a lot
of consumption things which we're doing
into you know individual households and
so forth we need to reorganize that so
that we can enjoy a nice life a good
life
well how preserving the social
capacities that we absolutely that we're
learning now that we don't have you know
that we're really scrambling to make up
when we come out on the other side of
this and we will I do believe that there
is an end to this but I would love it if
there could be some sort of blank slate
and all can't be completely blank but I
would love it if we could just hey you
know what we tried that for a few
decades it didn't work maybe there's a
different way to structure this maybe
there's a different way to think about
how we do this there is going to be on
the other side a fundamental of choice
and the fact
is that that they're going to be people
people have just been bailed out people
who sold short in the market I read a
Reuters story that at certain funds have
made a profit of three hundred and forty
four billion dollars on the crash of the
markets they saw it coming and they they
got themselves position and they reaped
a huge profit now what's going to happen
is that everybody else everybody who
owns a home or some other asset a piece
of land it's going to find they're in a
down market they're going to find that
the value that they thought they had was
much less they're gonna find that the
mortgage payment rel is they're going to
be underwater with respect to their
mortgages in a big way and people are
going to come looking for fire sale
acquisitions and so you know your your
apartment building your your your your
suburban home your small business all of
that is going to be easy pickings and if
you allow that to happen it will the
country will become even were more of a
plutocracy even more of that plantation
economy and I do not believe that the
country will tolerate it and so I think
as a political matter you're going to
see a deep let's let's just call it a
fundamental choice that has to be made
in order to root to continue as a as a
country that has a democracy the country
has the semblance of a of a middle class
from which the broad population has some
security there's going to have to be a
give on the debts there's going to have
to be a resetting of the financial
system going forward it seems to me that
this is I mean it we can't quite telex
end of it at this point but it just
seems to me that the logic is pointing
in that direction at this point you
people need to be thinking about it you
don't think people will tolerate once
again their homes
I mean being their mortgage being
underwater again - well mortgages will
be on will be underwater and the
question is what do you do about it so
what would happen what did they were
listening this do about it let me let me
let me again go back to history because
this was the fundamental problem of the
Great Depression
people had debts that could not be paid
and they were tied up in knots and it
was also at the international level they
British on the French after the
Warroad the United States and they
extracted reparations from the Germans
the Germans couldn't pay and the United
States ended up lending to the Germans
so they could repay the British and the
French and the whole thing was a big
mess and they couldn't get out of the
depression there was a big collapse it
took years to get even a recovery
started nobody not to the Second World
War
households earned a lot more money than
they could spend they put it into US
government bonds and they all at the end
of the war they all had substantial
savings and they didn't have debts
because the debts had been wiped out in
the depression and then we had a reset
of what happened after that 30 years of
reasonable prosperity middle class
prosperity in this country was only
after that broke down on the 70s that we
started going back into becoming a
country of of debtors and country of
people who are terribly stressed by all
the various debts.
and that is something
which we have to face that it's not
going to be tolerable at the little
scale it's about to happen so everybody
should be judge yes so we got into World
War two that was a big disrupter to the
depression who was a disrupter but
remember that half of the economy was
was being used to serve the armed forces
and that was not something anybody could
consume and so people were being paid to
do that work to produce bombers and
artillery shells and chemical explosives
and everything else that was being
produced machine guns so as you say and
none of that was in the in the domestic
market so all that money had to be
sequestered so what did they do they
control prices and ration to certain
basics they control prices on
practically everything that was my
father's job during the war for a year
1942 43 got the whole system up and
running and then uh they and they sold a
government bonds to the population to
help you so that you instead of holding
your your income in cash or or trying to
speculate or trying to hoard commodities
you hunt the government bond it
butchered in the late 40s and the 50s I
remember having some my parents put into
it with little savings account when I
was a child
yeah the same for me today yeah yeah I
mean this were these were serious eight
bonds and so every family that money $5
so the war
had a more financial security in 1945
than they could have imagined in 1939
and that's essentially the the story of
why the the system ran for as well as it
did and of course we know that the
financial system stayed regulated for
another four 20 25 years before it
started breaking down those those bonds
and going back to the what what would
situation we've been in now which is
essentially a 1920's style of of debt
peonage for a lot of people so what we
do have some yeah no I was just like
what is the 21st century version of what
you just described what happened in the
30s and photos it's gonna it's going to
come in a much more compressed time
scale but the pent the pandemic debts
that are piling up will have to be wiped
out and then we have to restructure the
financial system and the reset the
distribution of income and wealth
who's gonna white-hot so they should
start with that who's gonna wipe out the
debts how do we do to wipe them out you
simply cancel them cancel the debts yeah
yeah so give us what that's what start
by giving people in an even footing that
they can stand on instead of being
crushed sure I mean it's certainly no
debt which is built up in the service of
of serving the world by staying at home
in a public health emergency should be
considered a you know something that you
you have to worry about later on I mean
I guess people are sitting home for two
months and don't have any income and
they have mortgages to pay and so forth
those debts are not they're not going to
make up that income they're not gonna
have two months extra income in the
third month right but because they stay
because they stayed home that may have
resulted in me living so I want my
government to make sure that they're not
in debt because that sacrifice oh that's
right I would say they are allies in a
war effort allies in their effort yes
and Ally enter allied debts need to be
cancelled that's what got Europe back on
its footing at 1953 the London
agreements whether they enter a lie
deaths were cancelled and the London
agreements the German debts were
counseled to or is very heavily so next
year next year federal yeah I'm sorry go
hell yeah
federal
the co-chairman ap got back on his feet
right no so we cancel the debts all
right what's done after we're going to
have to forgive a lot of debts going
forward for sure okay step two after the
debts well then you have to decide what
you really need in order to have the
kind of as they say the capacity to deal
with this kind of crisis which we
clearly don't have now haven't had and
so you're going to have to are obviously
good you've got to have a public health
system that functions that people can
use that serves their needs.
and that
doesn't bankrupt them so the whole
system of health care is going to have
to be revamped and and then then you
then beyond that I mean there's a lot of
things that that we will need in order
to have the the kinds of capacities I
mentioned that would simply simply
monitoring and making sure that people
are able to get tested frequently as
they need to be so that when there are
future outbreaks they can be dealt with
surgically that is to say by by
isolating the people who are infected
and getting them under control locally
rather than having to deal with mass
shelter and place policies that were
doing now Korea by the way has succeeded
to a point in doing this so there he's
got some problems in Seoul at the moment
but they have mass testing they did not
go to a full-scale lockdown as they did
in Hebei and China Oh Chinese situation
was really very very grave because in
whom a they were overwhelmed and they
let they had to let people die at who
Babel in order to save the rest of the
country so there's a kind of wartime
hard wartime decision that they made but
it didn't work in Korea they didn't have
to make that decision and they they got
the the testing regime up and so they're
able to isolate there's particularly a
problem with particular churches in
Daegu and Noah's and some other special
circumstances and you know they're there
they're there they're able to get to so
far to keep it more or less under
control and that's where you want to go
and that way most people live more or
less ordinary lives but you have a much
robust system for making sure that if
things like this and this is not the
last RNA based virus that we're
humanity's going to see are identified
quickly and dealt with quickly and that
they don't become as disruptive as and
as deadly as this one is mm-hmm
so the pandemic her post pandemic is is
and should create a number of jobs that
pay a decent wage Oh Medi okay and it
says it's it's those jobs but it's also
jobs that we have now we have to
understand how critical they are you you
can't again I come back to the people
who manage the the food chain people who
pick the people who ship the people who
pack the people who sell people who
provide security and so forth all of
those have been very badly treated
people but they're there they're
absolutely critical frontline people
right now and what they need to be
absolutely both paid decently but even
more that they need to have adequate
protections you go into a grocery store
certainly around here and at least what
I'm told is that you don't see that the
employees have the protections they need
I know the instacart workers are now on
strike to try and get better better
treatment but they also should have
their met they need to have their
medical care provided for well isn't
that one thing was one thing we should
definitely fix after this huge medical
disaster is that everybody nobody should
after this ever have to worry about
their health care again period this is a
clearly clearly a lesson I know they you
know the situation is such that if you
have a large population I know in Dallas
that said they're 250,000 people who are
uninsured a lot of undocumented workers
I know in Austin the people that the
infection rates in the areas which are
or have a lot of immigrant population
though more higher and people are afraid
to go to the doctor they don't think
don't want to be bankrupted maybe they
don't want to be identified they don't
want to have their documents checked and
they're you know that's that's not just
a tragedy for them and their their
families but it's it
communities is inadvertently exposed at
that point so you have to have a system
in which Public Health extends to the
entire public everybody inside the
borders has to have access to it right
it's not impossible I go to go to
Britain and I had an episode of passing
through the airport and they shipped me
off to a hospital I was alright in an
hour and a half they handed to me a
piece of paper with my name with my
address misstated it said James
Galbraith has been treated and his
discharged period I walked out and never
saw anything Martha it's not impossible
to do that
you know you think Noah juris nothing of
course we can do it I can do it it's a
yeah any other country could do it we
use the way health care organize the
plutocracy you referred to me right I
know but I grieve that and and of course
it's been exceedingly difficult you can
talk about how the presidential debates
everybody was talking about what it's
Medicare for all going to costs and on
and on and on this is you know the world
has changed in the last few weeks and
people have to recognize that they that
the system that we had has melted down
it's like a reactor accident it is not
reparable it's going to have to be
revised question is how quickly we
recognize it how quickly we move to do
it the what we're seeing now is so it's
just going to begin to build as the as
the bills come in
you mentioned the debates and then
talking about Medicare for all how come
I haven't heard that that question in
the last month how you gonna pay for
that
Oh like my friend and colleague
stephanie kelton has just got a really
excellent piece on that when she talked
about her experience on the Senate staff
working for the budget committee working
for Bernie
yeah and how every time she does
something so what's the pay for how
gonna pay for that and then of course
what what has been revealed within it to
the to toe two trillion dollars so you
don't need to pay for it if you have to
do it you do it whether this was the
right or the wrong thing to do it's
certainly nobody considered you know how
to raise two trillion dollars in
additional tax revenue to fund
a louder fund Oh the other things that
are in that you know they just put the
money into the system the answer is
that's because the government can do
because that's an inherent power of the
government whether it's the wise thing
to do it in particular circumstances
another question but it's clearly a
power what it reveals is though that the
fact that the water systems are not
fixed and flat and the fact that you
know everything else that the roads and
the bridges are in poor shape is
anything else that you want to talk
about it hasn't been done in this
country the fact that the public health
system is withered that is not because
we couldn't pay for it but because we
didn't want to because some
powers-that-be didn't have the will or
the interest and that of course is you
know we're now paying we're now seeing
the price that's very painful for you to
bring up Flint as this example because
it's well it's I am I have a good friend
who works at the Javits Center and I we
the whole city here in New York watch
the Army Corps of Engineers come in to
the Javits Center this is a convention
center and they do they do the Auto Show
there they do the Boat Show right they
came in and in three days they said they
were gonna build a thousand bed hospital
in three three and a half days they
built an almost 3,000 bed hospital it
was the most amazing thing I hope
somebody set up a time lapse camera on
it and it really I mean you right away
you think wow we can do anything kamilly
and I just and I had I had sent like a
open letter to the Obama administration
back in 2015
asking the president please send the
Army Corps of Engineers to Flint they've
got to dig up these pipes these water
pipes it's all poisoned it's all lead
they got to dig up the main lines they
got to dig up the lines go to each house
it would it just hit to me it just
seemed like this is something the Army
Corps of Engineers could do
and dude just like that I mean in that
case and it would probably take a half a
year to a year to replace the pipes in
the city but I studied other cities who
have done it and it's not impossible you
just have to have the will like you said
and you have to have the meta make the
decision that this isn't no and you have
to have the people who can do it and of
course it again it's Governor Cuomo said
when he when he spoke yesterday though
most people their top-shelf and that's
what that's the spirit and the
capability that we need to have in this
country and the people who can do that
and the people who can who really
understand the public health issues need
to be given the authority and the and
the resources to do the job that they
that's that's required and once we see
what we can do.
and the example you gave
it's just excellent there's no reason
why it can't be applied to a whole host
of other things that have been neglected
for such a we could fix and we provide
employment and would provide do all
these things what is wrong I think I
keep saying this word is wrong with us
what is month in their deal this is what
the New Deal did the New Deal was a
massive construction project that it
gave the Old South a a new life
electrified the country in a literal
sense electrification you know when we
we don't really understand the extent to
which we still live with the fruits of
that their deal I mean I'm sitting here
in Austin Texas and we have electricity
that comes from the Mansfield damn that
was a New Deal project we have these
lovely lakes that were do those were
those dams were New Deal project we have
the University of Texas main building
that's a New Deal project we have
museums that are new sealed projects
that are we have a San Antonio Riverwalk
just down the road is a New Deal project
there are vast things and it's also it's
also art and music and and how many in
my dad writer so yeah we supported a lot
of people who are useful things so that
model exists in American history and
it's the right thing to think about us
we can think about what happens
once we get the immediate crisis under
control I am there was a there was a new
New Deal project in the town I live in
the Michigan WPA building and it had sat
vacant for a number of years and I
thought you know that would make a nice
little community theater and so I led
the effort to set up this nonprofit and
I had already done two one theater a
night and I did it I'm you know kind of
remade this thing I had a bunch of
friends there into a into a theater and
save this old Roosevelt funded building
in way in northern Michigan in the
middle of nowhere and it this yes so
much of that still lives with us um you
know friends of mine who sign up for
Medicare you know there are they're
reminded of that where we would we even
have this if it weren't for that and
it's an inspiration for the world the
New Deal didn't to the physical things
that provided social just social
security provided unemployment insurance
deposit insurance it provided the
minimum wage had got the union's
organized to the National Labor
Relations Act it really gave us the
structure of life that made the middle
part of the 20th century successful and
that's why I went out there when people
are talking about me and the great
challenge of climate change it's the
green new deal and that people think
about green but the New Deal part is a
very important thing not to say I
organized the conference on New Deal's
in Europe and America is just here at
Texas and November and that's up on them
on the website at the LBJ School and so
a lot of people who know quite a lot
about it including some very wonderful
people from the New Deal Preservation
Association the living New Deal that
that's a great website people can
understand just exactly how America came
to be what it is now through the through
the work that was done by the WPA the
Civilian Conservation Corps yeah my dad
was in event he built stay par every
every agency you can think of sure he
was a worker you know 19 years old
building state parks in Michigan with
Smith CC that
right around where you are the
Triborough bridge the Lincoln Tunnel
those are New Deal projects Wow you know
and you mentioned your father a couple
of times here and so if you don't mind
me bringing him up I don't want it all
okay good III he is there was of course
the great John Kenneth Galbraith and and
he my my cousin heard and was a state
assemblyman
in New York City and they were the New
York part of the family that we didn't
know that much but they would come to
Michigan every summer and then and then
every other summer we go to New York and
her father was part of Roosevelt when
Roosevelt was governor in New York was
part of his you know team of Democrats
and and I remember hearing your father's
name at a very young age because my
cousin Patricia just was had all this
history from FDR and after the war in
all this she was born in 46 but but as a
young child this your name your dad's
name would come up and and so I was it
just as a curious you know eight or nine
year old I was always trying to pay
attention to this sort of thing and of
course your father was still alive then
and very active in in these things now
that man what did we do take it for
granted back then that we that that we
got to this place now this is the income
inequality you know you've you've
written books about that all these
things that you know if your father were
alive today if he were here to help you
know what was what's the thing he would
do the morning after the Pearl Harbor
that we're in the middle of right now
you know what's the what's the
inspiration we need to take the thing
that you or I or anybody listening to
this needs to do tomorrow the next day
next month whatever it is because like
you said we don't have a lot of time
here we have to act very quickly right
now in the short term to save lives and
in the longer term to to rebuild a
crumbled
Society in some sense that people are
saying on it's gonna take 10 12 15 years
to do this rebuilding I'm thinking oh my
god
we don't have 15 years you know yep I'm
just channeling his thinking and and the
good graces that you got to be raised by
him what a blessing that must have been
I say that not you know maybe yelled at
you at dinner every night I don't know
it was it was her hair change I've no
complaints about it but let's so if I
had to think right now what what would
be in my father's mind I think it is
those crucial moments at the outbreak of
World War two when he suddenly found
himself responsible for one of the most
important pieces of the US economy which
was to prevent inflation that keeps
civilians supplied in a steady way and I
would argue that he would probably say
that not only do we not have the time
but we have the capacity to move it once
that is we understand what needs to be
done people people fall together into
into a a mobilization not only of
resources but a mobilization of spirits
that at spirit of solidarity and of
purpose then in a very very short period
of time the situation will begin to
change and I don't think we have to look
back wait for that moment but as it's
clear that that's so that's it's an
extraordinarily important moment in
American national life and national
history of my father was privileged to
be a part of it but we can look around
the world where we can see that where
people did come together with a sense of
public purpose and core and and did what
was necessary to you know everybody
everybody pulling in the same direction
of doing their part including simply
staying at home and and and observing
the quarantine so that you don't
transmit the infection then you then you
can begin to bend the curve you can
suppress the virus you can get control
of it and then the pressure will come
off of the terrible pressure on the
doctors and nurses and
medical staff will begin to ease and you
can begin to get you know some things
into a position where you could start to
say okay how do we best manage both the
situation going forward and how do we
best reorganize and leadership that's
right it does required it acquires an
understanding that that there has to be
a common purpose and there has to be an
understanding of it it is possible to do
these things if you do them quickly and
with a sufficient yes sufficient social
force amongst all of us and the
leadership that we need you know that's
its leadership is one thing but I
actually don't think it's that's the
ascent I mean leadership is important
leader needs to voice what needs to
happen but it really is the response of
the people that is right because we're
not gonna wake up tomorrow morning we're
not gonna have an FDR suddenly know
people people people need to need to
understand what they need to do they
need to listen to the to the authorities
who do speak the truth and we do have
some we have a by the way everybody is
with you have to admire doctor vouching
people have other people who've
mentioned I think everybody has come to
admire Governor Cuomo and other
governors and I certainly come to admire
my local officials here who are just
working as hard as they can and staying
in touch with their constituents so this
is all you know as I say there is
capacity but it's really us it's the
it's the it's the it's the public as the
American public the world public now it
needs to pull together I agree I agree
well this has been amazing talking to
you and and I you know we're all looking
for some sort of hope right now I'm
looking for realistic hope.
I don't like
false hope or something just so I can
feel better I was going to ask you how
back you know just a few years ago you
wrote a book called the end of normal of
course you didn't have this in mind when
you when you well I wish I had there
always you always wish you'd studies
some things that you didn't study it's
certainly been a rapid education for me
but on the question of hope I can come
back to some Express
that that our friend Bill Black is a
very fond of a knife often used it as
well I learned it from him it's the
expression that goes back to William of
Orange it is not necessary to hope in
order to persevere mmm Wow it is not
necessary so we need we need solidarity
we need organization do we need capable
capability and hope will cope will
follow hope is what comes when we know
that we're going to that were that we're
pulling in the right direction then you
get a spirit well that's what
distinguishes real hope from false hope
if you like yeah
well that's exactly what I needed today
so thank you for that how are you
feeling are you holding up okay
your health is oh yeah I I'm I have to
say I'm a household under extremely good
discipline and control and it's not mine
that's responsible for it I'm
exceedingly grateful to them for the
family support that I have right now
it's just my wife and my daughter are
here and and we're good we're certainly
as somebody said and everybody's inside
basically everybody's everybody's
basically inside my wife goes out once a
week and she knows the protocols he's
been studying them carefully so she's
we're we're we're doing our bit here and
I have to say I have three other
children who are not here one of them is
on the front lines in Portland trying to
raise money to support service workers
in Portland Oregon Thiessen hook he's
played off obviously his restaurants
closed my my transana up and in Vermont
is making medical masks and their little
business with his wife and my daughter
Eve has a musician has been shopping for
people but also she's been composing
some wonderful music in her own her own
little house and space in South Austin
making that available so there everybody
everybody is in my family I'm totally
proud of my children my you must be wow
that's incredible to hear and you know I
look forward to the day you know that
test that's coming out where it's going
to be able to tell you whether maybe
you've already had it here already maybe
immune
you know from from the virus you know as
soon as I'm told that I'm good to go I
just I want to I want to go volunteer
somewhere and just pitch in you know
whatever it is I can do you know I think
a lot of people feel that way I look at
all the retired doctors and nurses that
have come forward to volunteer and all
of us it's it that does give me some
hope that my fellow human being is my
fellow Americans are are still very good
people there's no question that they are
and that's really it makes one
understand who what who and what really
is important in life
yeah and so if that spirit prevails
we'll be in good shape I think there's
some you know there will be some rough
passages to getting to that point but
you can already see it you can already
see it as a as people really do
understand or what dedication and
professionalism that so many people are
showing and they've just stood there in
their basic continuing to do their jobs
under enormous stress I'm it's amazing
to me yeah
well listen James James James Galbraith
thank you for this no I really
appreciate it and please stay well
people like you we need you we're gonna
need you especially when we come through
this I am thank bill thank you it's a
wonderful experience talking to you I
meant to say I appreciate it very very
much
I'm honored thank you and thank you to
all of you who've listened to Rumble
here today I think we know we know what
we have to do and and I know a lot of
people are already doing it so thank you
and we'll we'll talk to you all tomorrow
thank you
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