Apple Podcastで“A People’s Economy with Stephanie Kelton”を聴いてみてください

Apple Podcastで"The Marianne Williamson Podcast: Conversations That Matter"の"A People's Economy with Stephanie Kelton"を聴いてみてください。https://podcasts.apple.com/jp/podcast/a-peoples-economy-with-stephanie-kelton/id1536043190?i=1000502675612 文字起こし [Music] hey everybody marianne williamson here and thank you so much for joining me uh i'm very excited about our conversation that matters today with economist stephanie kelton i want to begin by talking about how a caterpillar becomes a butterfly a caterpillar literally disintegrates and it disintegrates into what scientists called an imaginal soup a soup of what is called imaginal cells and out of these imaginal cells comes the butterfly when it comes to economics that's how i see stephanie kelton there's no question but that we are an economic crisis in our country right now and in many ways the world is an economic crisis but what the united states is going through now with coveted etc uh 93 million people were living near poverty even before the pandemic eight million people more have been thrown onto poverty since it began and we have a congress which is even as we speak withholding the economic resources that people need literally in order to survive we have millions who might be uh thrown out of their homes we have millions who are wondering how they're going to feed their children it's extraordinary uh the the coldness and even the cruelty i don't think it's hyperbole to say cruelty of a of a congress that will make sure that the pentagon gets funded this week but still can't seem to get it together to give the kind of financial relief to people that people so desperately need well we we know that something is terribly wrong that this is true but we need those who can articulate for us how we got here what's happening now and how to make things right and that's where stephanie kelton comes in incredible book it's a bestseller i highly recommend it but a silver lining that's inherent in the pandemic is most of us have more time to read than usual and it's a good good thing uh anything that gives us the opportunity to catch up on reading the book is the deficit myth modern monetary theory and the birth of the people's economy so i have had the honor of knowing stephanie kelton for a bit of time uh i just think the world of her as a person and i certainly think the world of her as an economist and i'm very very excited uh to have this opportunity to interview her today and for you to get to hear that make sure that you stick around after the interview uh for the ask marianne section where i will take some of the questions that have come in if you yourself have a question remember write to marianitecastmedia.com let's get started thanks so much here's stephanie kelton stephanie thank you so much for being here i'm so grateful to you thank you so much for having me you're out there a lot people are listening people are hearing people are talking about your book the wonderful book the deficit myth uh the way i want to start is it is my sense as i have traveled around the country my own experiences that people know the economy is rigged they know something is wrong it's not like people are stupid and it's not like it's obviously not like people don't care but the the dots have been scrambled people aren't connecting the dots and that's what i think is the importance of your work you're connecting the dots for people people see things like such is happening right now the house is poised to pass the national defense authorization act to make sure that the pentagon gets its 750 billion dollars this year and yet they can't seem to get it together to pass even another 1200 one-time stimulus so the people recognize that huge multinational corporate interests are getting the money and they're not but they don't know why and it seems to me like one of the most pernicious lies of the last few decades is that people have been trained to expect too little and one of the ways that people have been trained to expect too little is that they're told there's not enough money for all of the things that uh uh that they would want or need just in order to live lives in which you're thriving in a way that i think citizens should have a right to expect in the largest country in the world now those of us who are not economists know that this is crazy but we can't point out why and then you come along and here is stephanie kelton an economist is saying to us you're right it is crazy and i'll tell you why so that's why so many of us are so grateful that you're here helping us not only to figure out what went wrong but what we need to do to make things right what i love about the book the deficit is the is the subtitle modern monetary theory and the birth of the people's economy so now i just want to throw it over to you what is we know what a corporate economy economy is we know what an economy is where one percent uh owns more wealth in the bottom half etc what is the people's economy what is the modern monetary theory and how do we get there okay so there's a lot to unpack there you know what's funny is right before i joined you the last tweet that i saw as i shut twitter down was someone reporting from the washington post a reporter saying that the news out of the white house is that the white house is urging senate republicans to go ahead and try to work into this compromise legislation 600 not 1200 but 600 in uh so-called stimulus right send everybody a check that 1200 check that many folks got many months ago uh now the white house is saying why don't we cut it in half and try to go for 600 and get it out the door and the tweet that i saw was in response to this news this breaking news and the tweet said something like it's um it's amazing that the whole country isn't just basically being burned down right now and it speaks to your point exactly which is that we've been trained to accept so little why aren't people absolutely up in arms at the fact that you know there has been essentially no action out of congress for the last five plus months that you know we got the kind of uh you know quick response to coronavirus we got basically four pieces of legislation passed out of congress the big one being the cares act and then nothing even as conditions continued to deteriorate and it became clear that more support was needed congress just said well essentially right republicans in the senate said we're not interested in providing further help and somehow someway we all as a population just sort of sit there and say well i guess they're not interested maybe you know something will happen somewhere down the line maybe we'll get nothing i don't know there isn't that pressure brought to bear that you would think that the people you're asking about a people's economy if these folks work for us if they are really there as in a sense caretakers right for the nation and for the people of this country how on earth is it that they can turn their backs on people in a time of crisis when we know you know we know that 13 million or so americans are going to be behind many months on their rent and utilities up to as much as 6 000 on average come january that people are hanging on by a thread small businesses are continuing to go under families are on the brink of a fiction uh losing their livelihoods how is it that congress doesn't do more to support the economy in the interest in the service of the people those of us who put them there and you you already uh hit on this that you know too often the federal budgeting process works not for the broad majority of this population in you know devoting resources to the kinds of things that we know people support universal health care popular right canceling some student loan debt popular doing a stimulus checks popular we know the kinds of things that people want but the budgeting process works very well when it comes to as you said the defense authorization act we can you know um conjure up votes to fund hundreds of billions of dollars for the pentagon but somehow congress feels that it it can turn its back on people and essentially face no penalty for that right because we are we have a congress that does not act as a government of the people by the people for the people it's of the corporations by the corporations and for the corporations one of the things that i i like about your book is that it gives historical examples of how it got this way and it's historical examples of why it doesn't need to be this way in terms of the kovid relief you point out that this is pretty much the same template as the obama administration came up with after the meltdown in 2008. we were already well on the track of making it making it okay for wall street before we made it okay from main street isn't that correct yeah and there are definitely some parallels here i think you know we did get some good things into the cares act that uh top up in unemployment compensation the federal government provided an additional six hundred dollars a week uh to millions of americans who lost jobs in the you know uh in the wake of the pandemic and so forth that was a lifeline for the first time in their lives millions of workers actually had enough to live on they actually had some money left at the end of the month they said i'm able to pay all of my bills and i didn't have to go into debt just to cover my ordinary expenses so for the first time in their lives they were doing a little bit better and guess what you know the people researchers who've looked at the cares act and some of the better things that were in it said that as a result of programs like that and the 1200 stimulus checks that the cares act probably kept 18 million americans from slipping into poverty now since the income support has largely run out eight million americans have fallen into poverty since then so you know we did a little bit better for main street in the cares act as compared to a lot of what was in the major piece of legislation that came after the financial crisis in 2008 the so-called obama stimulus or the american recovery and reinvestment act that was heavily weighted in um tax cuts right more than a third of that legislation was in the form of tax cuts why because republicans thought this was the way to pick up some votes uh sorry democrats thought this was the way to pick up some votes from their republicans uh in congress and guess what they put all these tax cuts and they didn't get the republican support anyway so um there are definitely parallels but you also talk about how much we actually um actually achieved during world war ii in the midst of the depression what we achieved and i want and and i i can't find this in my notes right now but if you could talk to me about that this idea and what your book talks about is how it's simply a myth that we don't have the money it's not economic decisions based on money that we don't have it's it's political decisions based on money we don't want to spend on the majority of people even at a time like this when people are experiencing the kind of hardship that they are none of us are unaware even before uh the pandemic we had 40 of all americans who couldn't afford to absorb a 400 unexpected expenditure right and we already had over 3 800 people who are hungry we already had about 40 million people living in poverty so we talk about the fact that 8 million more have slipped into poverty since the pandemic began we talk about the fact that it could get up to 20 million the rate things are going but something was so terribly wrong that that many people were living in poverty before so uh so much of this gaslighting has been because people were told that we just don't have the money the deficit is so high and what your book talks about is we're talking about the wrong kind of deficit we should be talking about the health care deficit you say we should be talking about the infrastructure deficit and the democracy deficit and the good jobs deficit so would you please explain what is this issue of the deficit and how is the myth of deficit spending used as a cover for the greed and the systemic economic injustice that keeps our system so increasingly perilous and i think it is perilous to our democracy and certainly perilous to the lives of millions and millions of people yeah i mean the deficit is in a very uh real way considered like the get out of jail free card from any members of congress right because you can go to them and you can implore them and you can lay out the kinds of things that you just said oh the dire conditions in this country people don't have enough of this and enough of that and we are taking care and they say listen boy oh boy do i agree with you man i'd love to agree more love to be able to do something for you but we got this deficit we got these trillion dollar deficits we have multi-trillion dollar debt what are we going to do we can't burn we can't lay this on the next generation we're just not we can't afford it and so they hide behind that and so what i'm trying to do is shine a great big light on this you know you sure yeah and and look and i think the the way to start the conversation is honestly well to be honest about what this thing is and to recognize that every deficit is good for someone not the democracy deficit not the climate deficit not the infrastructure deficit every government deficit is good for someone so like why do i say that what what is this thing we call the the public deficit or the government deficit it's very simple it's the difference between two numbers okay that's what is this thing we call the deficit the first number how many dollars the government spends into the economy each year the second number how many dollars the government subtracts out of the economy mostly through taxation each year okay the difference between two numbers so when the government's budget ends the year in deficit what it tells us is that the government has spent more dollars into the economy right adding dollars then it has subtracted away but we know that if the government adds more than it subtracts then what happens somebody gets some dollars if they put 100 in and they only take 90 out somebody gets 10. every deficit is good for someone the government's finance the government's budget deficit is our financial surplus it is the collective surplus of dollars that exists outside of the government part of the economy so now the question is well where'd they go who got them what were they you know who got that windfall who are they benefiting so you look at the republicans and you look at the tax cuts that they passed at the end of 2017. right donald trump said biggest tax cuts in the history of the world this is the greatest thing i'm the greatest president i passed these huge tax cuts why did republicans pass those tax cuts knowing that they would add about two trillion dollars to government deficits over the course of 10 years why would they do that because they understand perfectly well that by running a larger budget deficit they are producing a financial windfall that it goes somewhere somebody gets to keep more dollars where did they go mostly to people in the top 1 percent 83 percent of the benefits on the personal income tax cut side went to people in the top one percent of the income distribution you have corporate income tax cuts benefiting large corporations so they're not bashful about using the deficit to carry out their agenda to divert resources financial resources into the hands of the people they are most interested in helping now think about democrats what would democrats do if they better understood and weren't so sort of cowardly about using the deficit to accomplish some of the things on their political agenda they could do things like cancel some student loan debt provide health care for everyone make public colleges and universities tuition free do more with child care and elder care and infrastructure and uh you know climate change and and and these sorts of things right so you can use the deficit i say in the book for good or evil but recognize that every deficit is good for somebody it's just as you point out it's about the politics of this right who for whom are you fighting well even if you look at the the idea of defense spending 53 cents of every dollar is defense related in the united states some people talk about how look how many thousands of jobs that is but the truth is that we've already proven that investment in education and infrastructure is actually monetarily a better investment uh that as we transition from a war economy to a peace economy it would actually be better for the economy it's just a matter of who's whose pocket are you talking about right is what we're talking about here now people who who uh who criticize your work say first of all where does all this money come from and secondly if you did what modern monetary theory says wouldn't it increase inflation so what's your response to that okay so let's do where does the money come from first because this is important and for sure not enough people understand this and i the reason is because nobody ever bothers to stop and talk to us like adults and level with us and level with us honestly about how the mechanics of government finance like how does it all really work so take the cares act for example because this is such a clear and present right example of where the money comes from so in 2019 you know as well as just about anyone that we had a very crowded field of democratic presidential hopefuls all vying for the nomination to become the democratic candidate for president people had platforms that ranged from doing very ambitious things medicare for all cancel all student loan debt reparations to slightly less ambitious going down right the spectrum but everybody had an agenda everybody had a policy agenda and all of the candidates were confronted with that question that dogged them throughout the campaign how are you going to pay for it where's the money going to come from right for all of this stuff so 2019 we as a nation are treated i say in parentheses right treated to this uh narrative how will you pay for it all of a sudden fast forward just a few months march happens we're in 2020 and the coronavirus is here and all of a sudden congress starts spinning out multi-trillion dollars spending bills without a moment's pause without ever having a conversation about who was going to pay for it whose taxes were gonna uh it was a christmas miracle there was plenty of money where did it come from so here's the answer to the question this is how it works congress wrote a bill called the cares act they passed the bill the votes authorized the spending congress didn't go out and find 2.2 trillion dollars it didn't pass the hat you know uncle sam didn't go to china and other parts of the world and ask to borrow 2.2 trillion dollars congress has something the rest of us don't have they have the power of the purse it's in the constitution the founders had the good sense as as president-elect biden said in a recent debate right the founders were smart enough to give the federal government the power to deficit spend so congress can commit to spending money it does not have it can do things the rest of us can't do so when congress wrote the cares act what it was effectively doing was saying to its bank the federal reserve its fiscal agent guess what get ready guys we are ordering up 2.2 trillion dollars we're ordering we're placing an order for 2.2 trillion and you're going to fill the order on behalf of the us treasury why because congress said so and we have the power of the purse so that's where the money comes from it all happens you know we're in the modern era nobody went out and printed physically 2.2 trillion dollars hey we got keyboards right this is electronic now we got digital dollars so to make those payments that congress authorized to put an extra 600 a week in an unemployment person's bank account to clear that payment for the 1200 check that you were sent someone to the federal reserve is typing in a keyboard and those payments are being carried out digitally by keystroking new dollars into existence that's where the money comes from your second part of the question wait a minute before you before you move on though because because not everybody is sort of up to speed with this conversation so i want to be really clear here what you're saying is that the federal government unlike state governments and unlike the rest of us issues currency the rest of us use currency but the federal government can issue currency so what you're saying is if they want more money it's just a keyboard click away they issue the currency okay and then the second question is that is the key distinction thank you the the distinction you want to keep in mind is that between the issuer and the user of currency which by the way should make sense to us right why didn't the unemployed person just keystroke some dollars into his or her own bank account why didn't the small business go out and keystroke some dollars for its own small business loan why didn't state and local governments why aren't mayors and governors keep stroking their own dollars to deal with their shortfalls because they can't because they lack the power to do what congress can do founders didn't give the rest of us the control of the currency the ability to issue only these and that's why you open the book saying that when obama said a household budget we should be we should be budgeting the country like we budget the household and you said no we shouldn't because a household doesn't get to issue more currency and that our budget you what you were talking about bernie you were talking about yourself and certainly i agree with this that our our budget should be a moral document it should be an expression of our values it should not just be this zero-sum game that doesn't even apply since in fact the federal government gets the issue currency okay second point what about the inflation this second point is that uh budgets are moral documents but they are also about priorities you can't do everything so there are limits just because you can keystroke dollars into people's bank accounts people often say to me oh really if it's so easy for the government to just keystroke dollars into existence why don't you keystroke a million dollars into everybody's bank account why not just do that and the answer is inflation and yeah you just mentioned it right where are the limits so is there anything to prevent the federal government from keystroking right pick a number president trump wants to pick 600 democrats wanted 1200 others want 2 000 maybe 10 000 maybe 50 have beyond some point the number gets too big and how does that happen well if you keystroke too many dollars into everyone's bank account their purchasing power is increased now they can go out and spend ten thousand or fifty thousand or a million dollars and what that's going to do is significantly uh diminish the purchasing power of the dollar over time right it's going to create an inflation problem why because the economy can't keep up with that much demand at any point in time so think of the economy like you know there is some productive capacity of the us economy the businesses that exist today can produce only so much there are only so many workers who can be hired once you hit the the maximum once you hit the ceiling and you top out at your potential any additional strain on the economy's resources will only produce inflationary pressures so there are limits and that's what we should be paying attention to not pretending that there's an arbitrary financial limit but recognizing that there are ecological limits right how much we should ask of our economy in terms of real resource use extraction and so forth and there are productive capacity limits in the short run well and right now there are limits to how long a person can go without food before they starve those are the kind of limits we should be thinking about right now so i think it's important what you just said because anyone who says that your your theories are irresponsible fiscally irresponsible inflationary actually you are you are speaking with great discipline and great responsibility but talking about who our first responsibility is and that is to the people of the united states i want to go back a little bit to the to the fact that it was during the depression that roosevelt established social security so what we're talking and there was they came up with the money right so the idea of course is the difference between economic crisis met with austerity and economic crisis spent with what what is the word that is used for sort of the opposite direction of austerity where you sort of loosen uh loosen money allow people to have more money because as you the point that you make and others is that that's what stimulates the economy if you just give all your money to the very richest that does not stimulate the economy trickle down theory they're going to create jobs after 40 years this is simply proven delusional whereas if you give money to a poorer person they're more likely to spend it and that is what would stimulate the economy so that the best way to help us out of this covid situation right now is to make sure that people get these stimulant stimulus checks is to make sure that we cancel the college loans etc isn't that correct yes i mean we this whole idea that you know the job creators are the people at the very top that they're the owners of capital that they are the the businessmen who do the hiring right that these are the job creators and that you have to provide all of the right incentives to make them feel comfortable and uh rub their bellies and treat them just so so that they will offer jobs to the rest of economy that's baloney the real job creator i'm sorry go on yes please the real job creators are the people who buy the goods and services they're the consumers right without us they don't have anybody to sell their output to they can't make revenue and they can't turn a profit and they go under so you know yeah and and if you put it all the jobs created by huge corporate entities and you put that next to the jobs created by small businesses in the united states the number of jobs created by small businesses is just below it's it's hardly even smaller than the jobs created by big corporate entities isn't that true it is and i hope it will remain true i mean we are uh you know looking at the potential now for these waves of small business failures and and greater and greater concentration among the larger corporations at the top and so um yeah we've we have long described small businesses as the sort of engine of growth when it comes to our economy and job creation and so forth and that has long been true and you know there are uh reasons to be concerned about whether that will remain true but no look capitalism we have a capitalist economy right capitalism is about producing for profit and so what makes a business want to invest and when i say invest i'm talking about buying back their shares and that kind of stuff i'm talking about investing in the company you know uh research and development spending money that way more capital equipment to make you know the business more productive um you know expanding uh the fact number of factories that they have and so forth what makes businesses willing to hire and invest and the answer is you have to swamp them with customers there has to be such strong demand for the products that they produce that businesses are compelled to hire and invest because they see on the other side of that more demand more revenue more profit and that's where you get the incentive for hiring and so with with the kind of income inequality that we have today where more and more of the income gains go to a smaller and smaller number of people at the very top it's very difficult to sustain the kind of demand right across the economy for goods and services and so businesses will accumulate profit but then do what just sit on it put it offshore ride buy back shares not plow it back into the company not reinvest why because there isn't sufficient demand for the output on the other side okay so i want to talk about several of these things i want to talk about the difference between productivity and wages you talk about the fact that uh even in 1973 you said there was pretty there was pretty much alignment between productivity and wages and the fact that productivity is increased and wages have decreased is a large part of why we have the income inequality that we have today and also it seems to me that's correct isn't that right stephanie did i got that right okay real median wages flatline productivity growth continues the other thing that just this whole capitalism conversation you know any anyone in business knows what nature knows and that you have to keep putting out new products you have to keep feeding new generations you need to create new products that life generates itself and right now america is so in the current economic model is so intent on eating our young when you have 45 million people who carry these college loans most of whom are america's young not all of them but most of them you have a trillion of college loan debt it seems to me all these young people would love to do is get in the game but you can't be a capitalist if you don't have any capital so if these young people are are saddled with these college loans they don't have the discretionary funding to start businesses and then everybody wonders why they have this anti-capitalist fervor i understand it because of all the millions and millions of young people who are saying what has global capitalism ever done for me and this reminds me of um when when so many people called fdr socialist he said i'm not a socialist i'm i'm not destroying capitalism i'm saving capitalism people who want money in the pockets of people this is uh the way to generate the kind of uh of of economy where enough people have money to spend to get into the game otherwise how can you even talk about a capitalist economy it's more of a royalism you know what we have now is what fdr called and then bernie picked it up also the phrase economic royalism yeah i i mean that's right you know you we know that um after the coronavirus hit that what is it 40 of uh workers who make 40 000 a year or less lost jobs 40 of people in the bottom of the income distribution just incredible right the way that things are skewed in this country so we really do have it upside down there's no question about it for uh you know a variety of uh reasons we have we have constructed i'll say construct it because it's deliberate right these things don't happen by chance there have been a series of decisions deliberate ones when it comes to our tax policy our trade policy our labor policies um you know environment things that we have done have built an economy that doesn't work for half the population or more right and that has left us vulnerable in so many ways okay so i want people to be really clear how this happened first of all i found the quote i wanted uh it says even when americans were at their poorest during the great depression this is from your book we managed to establish social security and the minimum wage electrify rural communities provide federal housing loans and fund a massive jobs program so this idea that we don't have the money to serve the people it's just like you say it's a myth right yeah i mean you know the one of the things that that the us and other countries did to fight world war ii was to go off the gold standard because this question you know where how are you going to pay for it where will the money come from the last thing you want to do is be trying is try to undertake large-scale spending where you quite literally have to find gold in order to support that kind of spending so countries always suspend the gold standard in times of crises and so we did that and we started to fight world war ii um and before that you had fdr rolling out as you just said a whole suite of new and expanded programs to provide jobs and income and retirement security and that's what got us out of the depression that's what started to absolutely pull the us out of the depression yes okay so and that's right because you're in a you're in the great depression and you look around and you think wow how could we have done that at a time when the nation was at its poorest when there was no money and the answer was well the federal government had that special power that the rest of us don't have it could commit to spending all of the money that was necessary to establish and support these programs and that generation tried to protect us so that the great depression would not happen again and actually what happened during the clinton years correct me if i'm wrong is that they started whittling away at some of those protections such as glass-steagall is that correct glass-steagall welfare programs yes okay so now so so world war ii and you know this was my parents generation but some of these young people it's like i don't think they teach enough american history in in in school anymore and i think knowledge of history really helps you connect the dots in 1952 dwight eisenhower was elected president and he's a republican he was the supreme allied commander during world war ii talk to me about the taxes the way people were taxed in the 1950s how high the taxes were how that built the middle class the higher taxes is what built the middle class and you talk in the book about how taxation is not just about funding it's about the distribution of wealth for the protection of democracy uh louis brandeis's line uh the late supreme court justice that you can have large amounts of money concentrated in the hands of a few or you can have democracy you cannot have both because and i so i'd like to hear about that about what the tax was in the 50s that so built the middle class so that people can understand how it was in 1980 when they started cutting all those taxes among the rich that that was the way that we started decimating the uh middle class and creating all the income inequality okay well i'm going to do i'm going to do this a little bit differently because the the argument that i put forward in the book would not be compatible with the idea that you need higher taxes in order to fund more generous robust social safety nets and a good economy right so even when we talk about repealing that you're talking about putting back in the middle class tax cuts so yes in terms of what you just said i have never heard you argue against tax cuts for middle-class people no i i have no allergies in just generic terms right but you can do you can do for working people what their bosses won't do in the sense that you can leave them with more money at the end of every week or at the end of every month right through through a tax cut whatever you do to leave more income in people's hands pockets bank accounts at the end of the year whether it comes from your boss giving you a pay raise or whether it comes from the government taking less uh in the form of federal income tax let's say um you know it's pretty hard to distinguish those dollars sitting in your bank account one one got there one way one got there the other way both improved your material well-being right your financial well-being so the way that i think of it marianne is this like the the currency issuer the federal government sits outside the system if we imagine an excel spreadsheet and you're the federal government and you can make entries you have all those columns and all those rows and in those little boxes are corporations like boeing and raytheon and caterpillar and you know wall street banks and also in those little cells are working people right and small businesses and so forth now the federal government has the power to tax and spend so one thing it can do is go into that spreadsheet and change the numbers in working people's accounts and change them up so you have more in your account it can also go in and change numbers down in the accounts of the big corporations and the accounts of the wealthiest people jeff bezos and you know the waltons and so forth their numbers can come down but i don't think of it as the more i pull your numbers down the more it allows me to push other numbers up in other words i don't need the wealthy they're not my piggy bank i don't i don't rely on them to fund a better economy a more generous safety net and so forth i'm doing it for a different reason so what we have what congress has when i say the power of the purse i'm saying congress has the ability to commit to spending money it does not have that's it yeah it doesn't it didn't have 2.2 trillion what it had was the ability to order it up from the fed okay get ready we're asking for it you make you manufacture it it comes digitally you make it for us so and i think that's such an important point because you know you often hear democrats and liberals and they talk about you know it's robin hood right what are we going to do for the poor well we're going to go to the very wealthiest people in this country and ask them to quote unquote pay their fair share we want money from you so that it in my spreadsheet i'm transferring money it's a transfer i take it out of your account and i put it in a poor person's account what i'm saying is don't think of it that way just think of it as two separate entities like two separate acts i'm going to tax you because you have too damn much and it isn't about you paying more than you're paying your fair share i'm taxing you because i believe that actually you're taking more than your fair share and that's why you have so damn much so we are going to rebalance the distribution of wealth and income in this country in part only in part we're going to do that through the tax system we're also going to get there through things like patents and protections that give you the ability to extract more and more over time trade laws and other ways but we're going to drink a new distribution strengthening we're going to do pre-distribution so that you don't end up with it all in the first place i don't want to come back to you year after year after year peeling away some of your ill-gotten gains i want to deal with why you're getting so much in the first place why is it all rising up why is it all you know uh concentrating in your hands so i'm gonna make my debits to your account with the aim of you know rebalancing the distribution of wealth and income i'm going to make credits to other accounts why because i want to pay for infrastructure i want to do uh support college i want to spend more on health care i want so i'm going to you know think about the government's capacity to tax and spend as separate acts that allow me to in a very kind of strategic and deliberate way um you know tax where i want to tax and spend where i want to spend without concern for matching the two up right because i'm not my my goal is not to balance taxing and spending i'm not trying to balance the budget i'm trying to balance conditions in our broader economy i want a balanced economy and a balanced democracy you know i read a book several years ago called the gardens of democracy and in talking about what we're talking about here today it said imagine if all the blood in your body went to one arm the blood has got to circulate money has got to circulate if you stop circulating money you stop circulating power and you completely demolish the whole idea of all men are created equal you demolish the whole idea of what supposedly is the ideal of the american dream is that everybody gets a shot if you've got so much money in the hands of a few then only a few can easily have access to health care only a few have easy access to education only a few have easy access to the kind of capital with which to to manifest further uh material dreams in their lives so it's a deeper it's a deeper it's not just an economic injustice it's undemocratic that we that we have come to this point and it's a 40-year slide right 40-year slide which has produced this massive transfer of wealth into the hands of one percent now it's bad policy that produced it it's good policy that will unwind it you talk in the book about the fact that you yourself were heading the budget committee but it was for the democrats and the democrats weren't in power so you just sat there being frustrated because there was so little you could do now we have a democratic president what are your thoughts about what should happen now what are your thoughts about what will happen now first of all can i ask your thoughts about janet yellen uh being treasury secretary i think that in the moment um i don't anticipate from her or from the administration at least not in the very short term the kind of pivot that we got pretty soon after obama became president that shift toward you know budget tightening and speeches that included phrases like you know american families hard work and people are tightening their belts and we got to do the same i i hope that doesn't happen um i hope that you know he's got some people around him giving policy advice that are saying things like you know we have the capacity to do everything that is necessary to provide the fiscal support that this economy will need not just in the months ahead but in the years ahead you know you've brought up fdr a few times and i would just say um as a reminder you know fdr had this idea about the three r's right there was immediate relief because the great depression so you had a crisis we got to have relief so we hear a lot of people talking now about a relief package but on the other side of relief when we get this virus fully tamed we're going to need one of the other r's and the one of the other ours is the recovery and that's where fight president-elect biden had uh run on a platform that said look i want to spend two trillion dollars on climate change i want to put 700 billion dollars into manufacturing i want to put 775 billion dollars into education and and family right care and so that's a lot of money and he's talking about you know making strategic investments in the economy that will help the economy through the recovery phase of the business cycle and then there's this third r that's kind of hanging out there that i think is important and i don't know that we're going to get to that r and that is reform and that is where fdr goes okay it's not just about you know short-term relief and some recovery support it's about taking this economy that is in shambles it had fallen apart and he was like you know you got two options if the if the pieces fall apart you can pick them up and try to assemble them the way they were put together before or you can recognize that in the crisis there lies an opportunity to put the pieces back differently to assemble them differently okay so i really want to slow down because i want i want i want everybody really clear what we're talking about fdr said there were three pieces relief recovery reform so relief is like get people at twelve hundred dollar check immediately just so that they won't be evicted just so that they can pay their children although i think we're putting a lot on twelve hundred dollars there by the way then we're talking about okay we think that with with with the biden administration we have a better shot at at relief and then as certainly if we win the two senate seats in the um in in georgia okay then recovery and what you have said here is extremely important recovery is okay how are we going to get back to being able to breathe easy and then you said what your concern is and mine also stephanie is real reform which many of us are concerned about not getting given the fact that this is a president-elect who's also said nothing will fundamentally change now i i love the line from the nobel prize winning for literature author russian author alexander solzhenitsyn he said a writer is a government in exile so think of a parallel universe this is a government in exile and in this government you are the secretary treasurer of of treasury i want to hear from you you've got the job what do we do for relief what do we do for recovery and what do we do to reform job is yours let us know yeah so um so you know it's interesting i had this conversation with uh donald trump's former head of the national economic council so the senior economic advisor inside the white house gary cohn who came from goldman sachs who worked in the trump administration for a brief period of time i ended up on a panel recently at bloomberg panel with gary and the moderator of the panels asked almost the identical question they didn't make me treasury secretary but the question was you know what we do much and what do we do right so uh so i said listen i'm going to give you my conservative numbers my conservative number for relief is 2 trillion that is my conservative number my conservative number for recovery is three trillion um remember that we've talked we had this conversation just a little while ago about you know the limits and inflation being the relevant constraint we're talking now about five trillion dollars yeah yeah definitely recovery but it's not just about how much or to the money goes to exactly so i don't want to just hear numbers i want to hear relief for who recovery for who so how is that money how is it spent specifically to make it relief and recovery for the people of the united states so you know to the extent that you can be strategic and targeted you should always do that right it's in moments of crisis that we often don't do a very good job like the cares act right a lot of that money found its way into the hands of you know large retail chains and others that people said well that wasn't really a small business was it sort of thing um so yeah you want to get the money to people who are in distress so who are the people who are most in distress it's the people in the lower tiers of the income distribution okay we can have a debate we know actually we've got the data and we can look by by decile so by 10 the bottom 10 percent the next 10 percent the next all the way up to the top 10 percent what did you do with your 1200 check people at the very top saved or paid down debt they didn't spend a lot so it doesn't work like good stimulus but as you get lower into the income distribution that money becomes a critical lifeline for people relief or stimulus get them recurring checks mary and i'll say let's do recurring checks this one off twelve hundred dollars you said that doesn't cut it and it doesn't cut it right so because we we know yeah this this data that came out i think yesterday in the washington post that says um 13 million americans by january are going to have uh missed rent payments that are coming due and utilities the average of which five is almost six thousand dollars almost six thousand so what is your 1200 do so recurring payments hold on slow down slow down ro khanna says 2 000 a month for every adult 1 000 for every child and for that to go retroactively to the beginning of the pandemic and from here forward is that what you would do probably not i mean when what i worry i guess a little bit about is that sending two thousand dollars to every person independent of their place in the income distribution you know for my taste i suppose i would try to be uh somewhat more targeted in that okay but okay listen i i'm not gonna throw uh yeah a huge objection over that okay before we go on from that ubi going forward are you a supporter um it depends what one means by ubi and that's always the trick for me because you you have to come and tell me is it really universal people will say ubi but then if you ask them to describe what they have in mind you'll often find out that they aren't talking about giving money to every single person so it's not really universal and then if you say well how much are you talking about sometimes they'll say you know four thousand five thousand dollars they'll bring up alaska the alaska dividend which is you know seventeen hundred twenty two hundred a year depending on oil revenues that's not a basic income a basic income ought to be enough to subsist on to cover the basics of life so you got to get somebody to divulge what their version of a ubi looks like and the other thing for me marianne is i always approach every policy recommendation in exactly the same way my question is this what problem are we trying to solve what problem are we trying to solve right now in the midst of a pandemic when people can go out and work sending people money makes really good sense to me right and providing recurring support for people in distress in this moment because of the nature of the crisis makes perfect sense beyond that people want jobs people want and i want there to be a program that ensures the way fdr did that there's a job available guarantee people who want to re-enter right to be in the workforce to be at work to um yeah i i i think that's really important so i'm not opposed categorically to a ubi i think it can exist alongside programs in public service employment and things like that i just always want more details um wouldn't the green new deal uh help create part of the jobs guarantee it absolutely could and i think that you know uh many of the people who have sort of mapped out early on gave us a blueprint for a green new deal included things like in fact said it must include a job guarantee there must be a way for people whose jobs are going to have to transition away from working in fossil fuel industries and so forth to other types of employment you can just say well good luck with that i hope jobs will pop up for you you have to make those jobs happen that's absolutely so important when we talk about shifting from a war economy to a peace economy when we talk about moving from a dirty economy to a clean economy it's so important that we remember that during that transition the people who in most of those cases already displace skills and resources that can be repurposed but we must make a proactive effort to make sure that that happens so we've gone from relief to recovery uh do you have anything more to say about what recovery should look like in your mind right now as we move forward well i think you know so here's where uh president-elect biden is talking about climate that could be an important part and it also chips away a little bit at reform too right but the recovery spending a couple of trillion dollars uh dealing with climate change will produce more jobs infrastructure and manufacturing will support uh and create new jobs and so uh that's important the piece that i like that i worry will get left out of any legislation in the early years as we focus on recovery is that sort of uh education and care work piece and that gets us to reform right how can we reform the economy in ways that you know when all of these front-line workers lost jobs and when kids were told you can't be at school you have to stay home and do this virtual learning we know that millions of women dropped out of the labor force they they left because they are the caretakers overwhelmingly and so they're at home with the kids and where is the support for a transition like that and how do we transition those that want to transition back into work so supporting you know um you know things like uh paid family leave we've got to establish paid family leave we've got to do something on child care people have no child care options to turn to child care is completely unaffordable in this country we have an aging population we're going to need to do more with health care and with elder care and so all of that gets us more to fundamental reforms in the system you know so many of these things that we're talking about taking care of children better taking care of the elderly better universal health care uh improved infrastructure uh free college these are you know those who are against these things here project on to them that they're far left socialist radical left when in fact in canada and in most countries in europe these are just middle of the road ideas that don't have any particular left-wing connotation whatsoever and we we have come to a point you know when you when you once again going back to your subtitle a people's economy the very idea of something for the people and then the those rat who they are the radical the radical right calls it socialism uh i don't know it's so important that people understand that that's nothing other than propaganda used to make them feel that it's not okay for them to expect anything from the us government and you see people who are in such desperate circumstances who keep as it's often said voting against their own economic interests uh because they have been convinced that this big bugaloo of socialism uh would be destroying our freedoms if they were to elect people who use the resources of the government on their behalf but then on the other hand stephanie as you yourself said so often the democrats are so cowardly that they themselves will not stand uh for the things that are so needed i think it's interesting even what you just said about the green new deal and trillions of dollars spent on climate change this will stimulate the economy because it will create jobs it breaks my heart when i see how many democrats won't show up for these things nancy pelosi not bringing uh prominent giant paul's bill for medicare for all to the floor etc um progressives feel like they don't have anywhere to go right now um and and i think that's what's going on away from they run away from the adjectives the the slogans the descriptions that republicans plaster on them you know if it's defund or if it's um planning or if it's rationing or if it's socialism whatever these words are they get terrified and they run away from them and you know you look where we are right now we have vaccine coming thank god right and vaccines are being rolled out we've we've seen the images i'm sure everybody has seen in the uk people are beginning to get vaccinated how does that happen hey the government is going to bear responsibility for coming up with a strategic way for it plan because planning is important because without a plan you have what chaos right it's good to have a plan planning is a good thing but this idea that we don't want a planned economy we don't we want planning in our economy every business room i'm sorry every uh corporation has a room somewhere in the building called the corporate boardroom and you know what happens there planning right yeah not only about this this is plenty of a plan planning strategy right yeah and let's be clear this is a planned economy it was planned by the koch brothers and uh their other billionaire billionaire friends well i think we don't want to get worried about you know those words and and we're going to roll out a vaccine and we're going to do what we're going to ration it early because everybody can't have it so somebody has to you know have a strategic plan and we have to prioritize and we have to figure out you know who's first in line and how we're going to distribute this thing and you know that's it that's okay that's what we want and should expect of our government step up come up with a plan administer the plan take care of the people prioritize those who are most vulnerable and you know well that's what trump refused to do and what horrified so many people and already we're seeing um president-elect biden appointing his health committee etc and clearly they quote unquote have a plan and will further have a plan something else about what you just were saying a couple of minutes ago about the power of words and how democrats run away from them the republicans are far more psychologically strategic and in a way sophisticated if they say something and you don't like it they say it again and if you don't like it they say it again and if you don't like it they say it again and after a while you just get tired of fighting it democrats you don't like it and they get off equipped and they can oh okay then we'll use different words um sometimes i think the words are unwise such as defund the police actually but but the general ideas that progressives stand for none of us should be afraid to utter and at this point what's happening for progressives in this country is we get blocked by democrats before we even have a chance to get blocked by republicans which i'm sure makes the republicans just delighted well you know stephanie i i thank you not only for being on on this podcast but for all you're doing for all of us because if in order to move forward we have to articulate what that way would be and i think that you're you're sort of every man's economist you know every woman's economist right now you are explaining you know and you and i met when i was uh just saying can you just explain to me basics that that i just don't understand and uh you are doing now for the whole country what i had the great uh good fortune of having you do for me let me break it down to you for those of you who don't understand how this thing works and you know complexity is the way they obfuscate that's what they've done that they make it sound like this is too complicated i think particularly i love that you're a woman because that it particularly there's this misogynist if you you you don't understand because the economic and political systems that dominate were devised before women even had a voice in the public realm and particularly when it comes to raising children we were that was considered a woman's job so the idea of arguing for things like you you were talking about earlier child care uh paid sick leave etc women didn't even we never the twain didn't even meet of a woman's concerns about children and economics and that's what i think if we move from an economic to a humanitarian bottom line my own opinion is that we need to completely uh move into a massive front ending of resources in the direction of children 10 years old and younger and i'd love at some point have a further conversation with you about that so i i can't thank you enough for what you're doing for all of us you're explaining things we need explained you're simplifying things we need simplified um and more more than anything else you're saying there is another way it doesn't have to be this way it's all just a a myth that's what you call a deficit myth it's a deficit myth and we should stand on what our hearts know to be true and that's that the real deficit is in our compassion for one another and in the use of the uh tools of government to actually serve the people do i have it right did i get it right i'd like to put that in the book anytime you always say better than i do no no no no i've read your book so i know i know better than that yeah anything else you want to add before i let you go on to your fantastically uh brilliant life well i mean i'll say thank you again uh for the opportunity and i love getting a chance to visit with you look i'll i'll just say that i am very very worried about where this economy is today and where it's heading and you know i have a a lot of um i guess hope inside about how the special elections in georgia turn out i think so much is riding on that um and i think that democrats you know they have got to deliver and i just hope that the message is getting through and that um soon to be president biden is going to be surrounded by enough people who also understand this because i think that you know donald trump is going to be out there he's going to be texting every single day of uh president biden's administration he's going to be reminding everyone of every jobs report every move in the stock market everything he thinks he can do to to paint a picture of how dire conditions are how the you know economy isn't improving things aren't improving and and guess what if they don't improve materially for the bottom half of people in this country i i think democrats are in real trouble in the midterms and i worry a lot about 2024 because i worry that we're going to get you know somebody worse than trump next time and i just hope that you know the party understands that and that they're prepared to stand up and do bold things and and this is not this is not the moment for timidity this is not the moment for incremental um you got to go big and you got to deliver oh stephanie i so agree with you i think that biden must present a massive infusion of economic hope and opportunity into the life of the average american and do it quickly and not incrementally uh these are revolutionary times it's either going to be a revolution of love and justice or a revolution of violence and pain and i totally agree 100 with everything you said if he does not go in there and act boldly and present that kind of massive relief to people um and recovery possibilities for people's lives then i couldn't agree more we will be in even bigger trouble in 22 people already lining up for it and god help us um in 2024. so i hope that the biden people will be calling you often and uh i know the rest of us will and i can't thank you enough god bless you darling so that was my conversation with stephanie kelton i hope that you enjoyed it as much as i did and that you'll look at her book the deficit myth it's so important for us all to become literate in these conversations so that we can push back at the various forms of idiocy that assault us day after day after day in order to almost brainwash the american people that uh it's wrong for us somehow to expect what citizens and other advanced democracies receive and expect and whose governments know that they better give those things to people or they would have a real problem on their hands and now it's time for ask marianne as you know you can write into marianne cast media cast with a k and i will answer you know i want to thank all of you who are sending in these incredible questions um very very deep and nuanced and i so appreciate it i can only get to a few based you know in comparison to how many come in but thank you very much for um sending them okay here we go this is from william marianne i was a reluctant supporter at first but after reading your book a politics of love and watching you speak more in depth i am a full-fledged advocate for you and your incredible ideas thank you william i've always been struck by the complete lack of nuanced discussion of schooling and education in american politics things like racial integration funding of schools public versus charter over-testing students receive some deserved attention but one subject near and dear to my heart is always pushed aside never given any serious thoughts thought universal arts education your book around page 140 hints at the inequities in our system but i would be fascinated to hear you discuss the importance of arts education and the incredibly good investment it likely is for the soul of this country while also cutting down on social ills related to poor childhood education wow william i could not agree with you more so let's talk first of all one of the big problems we have in the united states is that our primary funding for education is property taxes so what that means is that children who live in advantage communities will for the most part get a much better education public school education because the schools have so much more money to spend children who live in less advantaged neighborhoods are less likely to get the higher quality education now one of the things that i feel is an extremely important fundamental shift for the 21st century is that we begin to massively front-end our resources in the direction of children the the potential in the brain of children is is the gold that we need it's it's more significant than the than the oil on the ground that's for sure it's more uh powerful than anything that the sky can bring us in the wind or the sun it the the brain power of children the brain power of adults as well but the whole idea of the actualization of full actualization of brain power that's what we should be thinking about in terms of problem solving for the 21st century that begins of course in children's education now not only is there that funding issue one of the things i talked about when i was running for president is that every public school in america should be a palace of culture learning and the arts you named it william what happened several years ago of course everything became about stem everything about cain became about science and technology and math engineering and what this did was that it moved whatever financial resources were there in the direction of those subjects too often at the expense of the humanities and at the expense of the arts it's unbelievable the schools you go into the public schools that you go into and unlike when i was growing up and going to public schools they don't have music classes anymore they don't have arts classes anymore and in far too many of them they don't even have civics classes in american history classes anymore now this is really really bad and it's really bad for the reasons that you touch on william the development of the right side of the brain and the development of culture and the development of an understanding of history is what creates a whole person in order for us to be a well-governed democracy if in fact we hold to the ideal that there is self-governance in this country that it is the people themselves who are the main engine of governance then we have people we need people who are not so easily bandoled we need people who understand history we need people who appreciate culture we need people who understand and participate in the arts why because literally it expands sections of the brain it expands aspects of our personhood so that's why when i talked in my in my campaign i always said that every school in america should be a palace of culture and learning and the arts you know when i was running i went to these schools in south carolina called the governor's school and there are two of them there's a governor's school in the humanities and the arts and there's a governor's school in science and math and these are public schools i i'm not sure but i think only 250 children can attend tremendous tremendous competition as you can imagine and just walking down the halls walking through the halls having lunch there the food they have the art that these kids have developed that's you know all over the walls sitting in on classes and hearing what these teachers are going on and on about and i was like i want to go here i want to come here and to think what kind of a country we would have what kind of a country we could have if every public school in america was this and let's be very clear it's simply a political decision that it's not that way the needs of america's children are for the most part peripheralized in this country why by our political system why because children aren't old enough to vote so they're not a constituency and children aren't old enough to work so they don't they don't have any financial leverage and since financial leverage has way too much influence in congress today to an obscene degree where does that leave children and so it has to be people like you and me william it has to be parents it has to be concerned citizens people who care about not just children but the future of this country and the future of this world who come to realize this fundamental change that's necessary and i agree with you title totally about the arts and i have to tell you there are other countries that do so much better than we do this has to do not only with uh patronizing the arts in school but even patronizing the arts in terms of the uh the arts councils and the things that the that we pay for that our government pays for in terms of supporting the arts is a small fraction of what most european uh countries pay for so this is a this is an area where i could not agree with you more the more we have the conversation point out the need for these things this is like what we've been talking about in this program earlier today we have to be the imaginal cells we have to articulate what's possible americans have been trained to expect too little and i think when it comes to the arts in school like i said i walk through public schools and i go well when i was a kid we had music classes wow when i was a kid we had arts classes wow when i was a kid we had drama classes what happened well when you go to the private schools they're there when you go to the higher end public schools they're there but too often america's children in far too many places are deprived of those things deprived of a lot of things i shouldn't be deprived of in our public schools this should be front and center to what all of us as citizens most care about thank you so much i appreciate i appreciate the question okay now my next question is from terry s dear marianne your work has been so influential to my life and worldview thank you for all you do thank you as a young woman who is in the peacebuilding field what is one piece of advice you would give to me not only for a successful career but to make a real difference i look up to you and i'm interested to know what you would like to see the next generation of peace building practitioners embody with love terry well terry you probably know that i think that the work you do is absolutely uh critically important for the sustainability of our democracy and our world uh you stand for something that is so significant this is why when i was running for president i supported a a department of peace there is legislation that's never been brought to the floor but for a department of peace building i think a lot of people simply don't know what it means to proactively wage peace so i want to take this opportunity to make people know that there are four factors which when present statistically increase the probability of peace and decrease the incidence of conflict in an area and this is as true in a corner of an american city as it is in another corner of the world and that is number one expanding educational opportunities for children number two expanding economic opportunities for women number three reducing violence against women and number four ameliorating unnecessary human despair so all of you who are listening know what terry already knows which is that now you know that there are specifics involved in being as terry calls it a peace building practitioner this is extremely important because we should see large groups of desperate people as a national security risk why because desperate people especially in groups become more vulnerable to ideological capture by genuinely psychotic forces and this has happened in our country and it has certainly happened in other places around the world we now have a 760 billion dollar defense budget some would say it's more and we have a 40 billion dollar state department budget and within the state department are the peace building agencies that we have well you can see how much less money we spend on peace building than we have uh than we spend on preparing for war but war is the absence of peace peace is not the absence of war just like sickness is the absence of health health is not the absence of sickness you have to proactively cultivate health in order to prevent illness and you have to proactively wage peace in order to prevent reasons for war we have a particular problem in this country because so many hundreds of billions of dollars are made on preparing for war there are not corporate profits for waging peace all there is is the pathway to the possible survivability of the human race so terry is in a field where people are underappreciated people are undervalued and god knows people are underfunded so what i want you to know terry is that not only myself when i ran for president i talked about a department of peace and tried to give more of a platform and as i'm doing here today trying to give shine more of a light on what it means to be in peace building humanitarian efforts know that more and more people are doing the same you keep doing what you're doing terry when i when you ask me what would i i see you embody obviously you don't do the work like you're doing unless you already embody a lot of compassion that's what you're showing people they're showing people just the that yes we are here to help you build that well yes we are here to help you non-violently resolve that conflict yes we are here to help you back on your feet after having been incarcerated yes we are here to help you take care of your children when you go to work yes we are here to help you become gainfully employed in the midst of your despair that which helps build people's lives up these are the things that build peace this has to do with the change in conversation and each and every one of us terry it's not so much what you need to embody it's what those of us who hear from you need to do we need to expand our own conversation and i hope that by you're writing this letter people's ears will have perked up when you say what would you like to see the next generation of peace building practitioners embody and what you embody to embody hope that more and more of us know what you're doing and know the importance of what you're doing and are going to do everything we possibly can to give you the kind of platform the kind of support and the kind of funding that you need to make the kind of difference that you know when you're out there in the field helping a child helping a woman helping a man helping a human life repair your front you're up close and personal with human despair that's what my career has been for over 30 years up close and personal with people in times of trouble and knowing where would any of us be if somebody wasn't there to help them and seeing how how how many times people are in despair because of bad public policy so i know you know i i've looked to my to my life and i've asked myself often you know to whatever extent my life has been successful what were the factors that were the most significant in making it happen and in every single case where i did that this is what i saw somebody help me next one most important somebody help me third one somebody help me yes i've worked very hard we all work hard but who among us aren't at some point in life dependent on the kindness of strangers and that's what the peace builders do the peace builders help people repair what has been broken in their lives that's the way we we pave a road to peace in this world so extending those educational opportunities economic opportunities ameliorating human despair this is what it means to be part of a peace building community and know that i'm impressed and i know that a lot of people who are listening right now are impressed that this is the choice that you have made in your life this is not you know when you say my career goal is to be a a peace building practitioner that's not somebody saying my goal is to go make millions and millions and millions of dollars that's not going to necessarily happen but it does mean i'm going to pave the way to a sustainable world you are leading the way and uh i just want you to be at peace in the knowing that not only do you have the gratitude of those who's who's uh who are directly helped by your services but you certainly have the gratitude of me and i know many people who are listening right now some of whom are saying for the first time wow i didn't even know how important that was but they know now god bless you and on behalf of all of them and all of us i say thank you for what you do okay uh that was our podcast for today i'm so grateful that you were here i hope that you heard things that were of value to you and i hope that if you're enjoying the podcast you will please go on to itunes and rate and review because that's the kind of thing that will allow us to stay on the error and i want to stay on the air i very much enjoy these conversations with these amazing people uh who write books and think thoughts and direct projects that make such a difference in people's lives and i hope you feel as i do that just hearing about those things makes a change in yours much love to you see you next time 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