23:07the polity in the form of some sort of democratic redistribution of resources like these are political questions they
23:14are questions of power and distribution and so fast forward to the modern day
23:20what do
23:27sector is absolutely de-risking left and right and has been de-risking of the
23:34financial sector for example first decades if not centuries right we invent
23:40new institutions to provide to import more stability on the system to eliminate Bank runs to eliminate
23:47defaults on certain Financial assets the public sector uses its exclusive
23:52spending powers to de-risk those markets and the risk yeah Capital now we do this
24:00sometimes in terms of de-risking Strategic investment let's say Tech
24:05investment we provide large contracts guaranteed profits we believe it's important to provide the subsidies in a
24:12sense we're de-risking the investment the one thing that we don't seem to be de-risking very effectively is the labor
24:18market we had done a little bit after the Great Depression we put in place minimum wages eliminated child labor
24:25social security standard labor contracts in some countries not others so we've
18:19level that is consistent with full employment to me that is also a paradox we can't meaningfully Define full
18:26employment as some level of unemployment now mmt argues that perhaps the critique
18:35of the nairu has not been as effective because Henry Darcy doesn't have a
18:41genuine alternative to the unemployment stylized fact that there is some sort of
18:48tacit acceptance that we can try to do as much as we can but we will never
18:53finish the job completely there will be always some unemployment an nmt outright
18:58rejects this proposition and it says that we have a concrete tool in the form
19:04of the job guaranteed employee of Last Resort that can in fact provide that public option now this idea of the job
19:11guarantee is not new there is a long history I would say specifically out of
19:18the human rights economic rights tradition that has emphasized jobs for all what mmt brings to the table is an
19:26understanding that unemployment in fact in many ways is engineered by the monetary system that there are just
19:33fundamental aspects to the way money works that contribute to the existence
19:39of unemployment and specifically imposing taxes and obligations on the
19:44economy yeah I think in your lecture at the levy summer school last year you
19:49said it's an original sin yes exactly that is so at the core of a monetary
19:55economy that I mean it's the old adage nothing else is certain but death and
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The MMT Podcast with Patricia Pino & Christian Reilly
Patricia & Christian talk to economist and author of "The Case For A Job Guarantee" Professor Pavlina Tcherneva about her chapter in the recently-published "MMT: Key Insights, Leading Thinkers". Three Lessons From Government Spending And The Post-Pandemic Recovery: (1) The funding is always there. (2) Unemployment is a policy choice. (3) Large government spending is not the inevitable source of inflation. Also under discussion: the US debt ceiling drama, Universal Basic Income and more. Please help sustain this podcast! Patrons get early access to all episodes and patron-only episodes: https://www.patreon.com/MMTpodcast All our episodes in chronological order: https://www.patreon.com/posts/43111643 All our patron-only episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/57542767 Order the Gower Initiative's "Modern Monetary Theory - Key Insights, Leading Thinkers" (2023): https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/modern-monetary-theory-9781802208085.html LIVE EVENTS! Details of the MMT Summer school in Poznań, Poland (September 5th-7th): https://fundacjalipinskiego.pl/wydarzenia/mmt-3rd-summer-school-in-poznan/ Website of the 3rd International European MMT Conference (Berlin, September 9th-10th: https://www.mmtconference.eu/ To attend James K. Galbraith's Keynote Lecture, (June 15th, 2023, 1-2:30pm) RSVP at the bottom of this page: https://edi.bard.edu/events/ Relevant to this episode: All our episodes with Pavlina Tcherneva: https://www.patreon.com/posts/44405631 Quick read: Pavlina Tcherneva's Job Guarantee FAQ page: https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/job-guarantee-faq/ Christian mentions Pavlina's lecture where she describes the "original sin" of money systems (that they necessarily create unemployment). That's in this episode, along with the route to "redemption" - Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-148-why-73211346 Pavlina mentions the NAIRU (Non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment). More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIRU For an intro to MMT: Our first three episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742417 Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318 Quick MMT reads: Warren's Mosler's MMT white paper: http://moslereconomics.com/mmt-white-paper/ Steven Hail's quick MMT explainer: https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-modern-monetary-theory-72095 Quick explanation of government debt and deficit: "Some Numbers Are Big. Let Me Help You Get Over It": https://christreilly.com/2020/02/17/some-numbers-are-big-let-me-help-you-get-over-it/ For a short, non-technical, free ebook explaining MMT, download Warren Mosler's "7 Deadly Innocent Frauds Of Economic Policy" here: http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf Episodes on monetary operations: Episode 20 - Warren Mosler: The MMT Money Story (part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/28004824 Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318 Episode 13 - Steven Hail: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Banking, But Were Afraid To Ask: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41790887 Episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/35073683 Episode 84 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46352183 Episode 86 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46865929 Episodes on inflation: Episode 7: Steven Hail: Inflation, Price Shocks and Other Misunderstandings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41780508 Episode 65 - Phil Armstrong: Understanding Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/40672678 Episode 104 - John T Harvey: Inflation, Stagflation & Healin
Apple Podcastでお聴きください: https://podcasts.apple.com/jp/podcast/the-mmt-podcast-with-patricia-pino-christian-reilly/id1375093518?i=1000616212538
0:00
we talk a lot about de-risking right this is the Vogue term these days well
0:05the public sector is absolutely de-risking the financial sector for
0:11example right we invent new institutions to impart more stability on the system
0:16to eliminate Bank runs to eliminate defaults on certain Financial assets the
0:21public sector uses its exclusive spending powers to do risk Tech investment we provide large contracts
0:29guaranteed profits we believe it's important to provide the subsidies the one thing that we don't seem to be
0:34de-risking very effectively is the labor market what mmt brings to the table is an understanding that unemployment in
0:41fact is engineered by the monetary system and it says that we have a concrete tool in the form of the job
0:48guaranteed employer Last Resort that can provide that public option
0:58[Music] is the mmt podcast with Patricia Pino and Christian Riley
1:08hi I'm Christian Reilly and welcome to the modern monetary Theory podcast you
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2:03big thank you to all of our supporters so far and thanks as ever for the time
2:08you put into understanding mmt let's dive in welcome one and all to the mmt
2:14podcast I'm Christian Riley and I'm Patricia Pino and it's our absolute pleasure to welcome back to the show
2:21director of the economic democracy initiative and author of The must read the case for a job guarantee Professor
2:28pavlina chernova hi pavlina hi it's good to be back so pavlino we wanted to talk
2:33about your chapter in the recently published mmt key insights leading thinkers and that chapter is entitled
2:40three lessons from government spending and the post-pandemic recovery and
2:45lesson one of the three lessons is the funding is always there just for anybody new to mmt can you say what you mean by
2:52that well basically crisis after crisis we see that whenever governments wish to
3:00provide funding for whatever policy priority um they have the fun ending no matter
3:07the size is available there are no limits constraints there's no ring of
3:12hands or calling up of taxpayers public institutions are there to fund those
3:19policy priorities so it really is supposed to put to rest this question of how do we pay for various programs and
3:26objectives and so given that as you write in the chapter quote the central lesson of the covid fiscal response is
3:33that money isn't scarce and quote could you give us your thoughts on the recent
3:39debt ceiling drama that just concluded for now at least over there in the U.S
3:44while it has become like Groundhog Day you just anticipate that every time
3:49government expenditure approaches that arbitrary limit this has become a
3:55political tool to undermine various other programs and policies so it's
4:01completely artificial it is counterproductive and diverts attention
4:06to the important economic concerns at hand so in a sense we are trapped in a
4:13false conversation trying to debate whether or not the public sector has the funding to pay for programs where in
4:19fact we know very clearly that it does and it's just a matter of what we prioritize and then put together our
4:27existing tools to fund those policy priorities I mean one of the things that I discussed in my chapter is that yes
4:35money is not scarce but money is also fundamentally a public institution and
4:40despite the very many intricacies that we see at the Institute official level different countries have ministries of
4:48Finance central banks they coordinate or not in different ways whatever those
4:53legal institutional arrangements are the Bills get paid for what we would call
5:00monetarily Sovereign Nations and major crises illustrate that even those
5:06institutional arrangements are not really a limitation to paying for crises
5:11and then what we also saw in the pandemic is that countries that do not have monetary sovereignty well they were
5:19not able to respond in the same scale the same size but some countries try to
5:25ReDiscover their monetary sovereignty notably those in the Eurozone and the
5:31Eurozone broke its own rules implemented various funding mechanisms to allow countries to respond with the kind of
5:38large-scale government packages that were necessary to address the crisis and
5:43since you bring up the Eurozone in your chapter you compare German unemployment to U.S unemployment
5:50over the initial pandemic response period tell us about that yes I mean
5:56this is fundamentally a question of how governments spend it's really rather trivial to observe that countries that
6:04have currencies which are public monopolies do not have operational
6:09constraints to spending they are not going to ever run out of the currencies
6:14that they issue so that is a rather trivial observation it is an important one that mmt has emphasized because
6:21frankly no one else has done it but what we have always attempted to do is to say listen we are trying to shine a
6:30spotlight on the way governments spend and we need to go beyond this
6:35conversation of can we pay for our programs because we do have institutions
6:40that can and so we've spent considerable time explaining some of this financial
6:46architecture and some of these historical artifacts like the debt ceiling like dead to GDP ratios and the
6:55kind of legal separation that might exist or at least limitations between fiscal and monetary authorities so we've
7:02spent some time doing that because the institutional analysis is important in illustrating these capacities of
7:08governments but then what we are really interested in is the question how do we spend and what is the economic outcome
7:16what is the effectiveness of that spending and kovid gave us some insights
7:21into that question because when you survey the major oecd countries
7:27developed countries we see different size packages so Japan traditionally
7:34always have been very fiscally bold and aggressive and they had spent over 50
7:40percent of GDP to address the covet crisis the United States we spend the
7:46equivalent of 26 point nine percentage just in in 2020 alone I mean that is
7:51quite extraordinary in the post-war era we have not seen this size government expenditure the last comparable such
7:59spending was during World War II and the Great Depression but then there are countries like Germany Italy France that
8:07spent about 10 percent of GDP and as I just said there are obviously constrains
8:13monetary constraints but those were relaxed and the spending was supported by the European Central Bank but they
8:20also came out of the recession despite their smaller relative spending with lower unemployment rates or in fact they
8:27just didn't allow unemployment to accelerate to the degree that it accelerated in the U.S so again in the
8:34U.S 27 of GDP but we ended up with 14 almost
8:4015 percent unemployment rate at its peak that's extraordinary Germany spends
8:45about 10 percent but they end up with Peak unemployment 5.5 why and that
8:51really is about policy design it is about the way the governments chose to respond and in Europe the policy Choice
8:59was to protect payrolls whereas in the United States we simply allowed firms to
9:06have workers in mass and then on the back end we decided to provide Income
9:12Support expanded unemployment insurance various other stimulus programs and these outcomes are certainly not
9:18inevitable they're very much policy Choice which is I guess the second lesson that I highlight in my chapter
9:25that unemployment at bottom is a public policy choice would you say though that
9:31in that because here we had something called the furlough and people would be kept on the payroll but that's despite
9:38the fact they were sent home because the law here was that you can only be in fellow if they're not working during
9:43that period right and isn't that hidden unemployment though isn't the effects of
9:49that similar to other types of unemployment might be yes in a way yes
9:54but also note that this was quite a different crisis from the conventional
10:01recession that we see this was very much a supply side crisis where businesses
10:08close doors and Productions stopped and we just tried to engineer a pause in the
10:14global economy and so yeah in a sense if you're not going to the office or if you're being furloughed that is a kind
10:20of hidden unemployment that is a consequence of the shutdowns but the
10:26furlough also keeps you attached to the job it also affords more a better
10:33reintegration in the labor market better transition whereas in the United States
10:39they were there are a lot of workers who do not have first the formal employment Arrangements that we tend to observe in
10:45Europe and when restaurants shut down or they close their doors permanently then those folks are in a very real sense
10:53unemployed and the government did provide income support but that
10:58transitioned back into the labor market was more difficult now I think it's important to note that we had still seen
11:05the fast swiftest recovery in post-war history but then we got to ask ourselves
11:10these questions was it the government that did that was it the large-scale government spending that rescued the
11:17economy is it to me the answer to that question is both yes and no if we did not have this significant support on the
11:24fiscal side then what was a temporary pause in the labor market would have
11:30become a permanent Devastation and so in a sense we provided that kind of income
11:36support for folks to come back in but also no because it was largely a supply
11:42side shocked and so when the economy reopened firms were able to bring back
11:48large swaths of the labor market but then also that begs the question well what happens next in the next Crisis
11:54would we have to rely on 20 30 percent of GDP government expenditure to
12:03engineer a very rapid recovery and I think that the answer is no there's hardly any appetite for this scale of
12:10government spending the politics definitely don't give us any reason to
12:15be optimistic but also we tend to address these crisis by relying on these
12:21discretionary expenditures and so again the question is how should government respond to crisis are there better ways
12:27to spend financial resources and address real crisis and in your chapter I think
12:34the line that Nails the difference between the U.S approach and say the German approach is this line from a
12:42macroeconomic perspective the policy maker has two choices either close the output Gap or close the employment gap
12:49can you lay that out for our listeners no absolutely this is a very peculiar way in which economists tend to think
12:55about the problem of unemployment you see often when we Define an economy that
13:01is fully employed economy we don't actually mean people conventional economists tend to think of some sort of
13:09output potential output that the economy can reach and so that would imply yes
13:15people working but also factories operating at high capacity resources not
13:21being underutilized so it's a very amorphous abstract concept of Full Employment and often when we talk about
13:28unemployment we talk about deviations of actual GDP growth from this mythical
13:35potential but you see we can close that Gap and that's what essentially
13:40recoveries do we can bring us back either close to that previous growth path or we simply reduce the growth path
13:48the potential gets redefined and so the output gets closed through these two
13:55effects but what we've seen in the postural areas that we've seen jobless recoveries so in a sense we are closing
14:02the output Gap we are restoring growth or the economy is recovering but the payrolls do not return at the same rate
14:09so while increasing the production should imply increases in employment
14:14there's no like stable ratio and if our attention is just on the GDP number on
14:21growth then in a sense you can accomplish the goal of returning the economy to a growth path but you still
14:28have many people who are unemployed and this is a fundamental problem the
14:33European approach I think recognize that you need to protect people there employment payrolls whereas in the US
14:41that was not the focus of policy the focus was well how large should government spending be to grease the
14:48economic wheels and hopefully restore growth when the pandemic is over on the subject of the European Union because as
14:55you mentioned the rules got relaxed over there in order for the pandemic response to happen despite the fact that the
15:02rules got relaxed for a few years there was less than expected government spending in a number of countries and I
15:10was wondering what your view may be about the why in the context of okay
15:15there are no restrictions now we're going to support all government spending in the European Union why would
15:22governments hold back when before they would quote European Union rules in
15:27their spending yes I mean that's a really good question my sense is that when we are trapped in a paradigm of
15:35austerity for decades and decades it's policy makers don't just wake up one day and say hey our hands are untied let's
15:42just go and do everything we can to support our economy I think that there's that General principle you know the
15:49folks in elected office tend to be fiscally conservative they are not as
15:55Progressive in terms of Social and economic policy so that would be one hurdle I think that they may have been
16:01also the question of what happens next and that is a question that you know is being discussed at the European level do
16:08we urge countries now to go back to the Mastery criterias now that they have accumulated increasing deaths in part as
16:16a consequence of the covet pandemic do we now impose on them ever harsher austerity to bring them back under the
16:2360 The Impossible 60 debt to GDP or the deficit and that may be one other reason
16:32and I think the third reason is related to the first like low appetite for spending is that you in some sense we
16:38have also either not built or destroyed public institutions that would be there
16:45to address problems with well infrastructure gaps care needs gaps the
16:52Paradigm has been so much reduced the public support privatize essential
16:58services so that is another hurdle of Swift and quick responses in spending on
17:04care needs and kind of essential needs while we're on lesson two which as you
17:09write unemployment is a policy choice just in the theory mmt is focused on bringing about full employment with
17:15price stability most people understand why we'd want price stability because we
17:21all hate inflation but maybe people new to this don't understand the Dual emphasis on price stability and full
17:27employment and maybe some people think full employment's a nice to have rather than a must-have So for anybody new here
17:35why the emphasis on phone employment well this is also a particular artifact
17:41of how the economics profession has evolved full employment was not a nice
17:47to have I think all mainstream and non-mainstream economists will say that full employment is a precondition for a
17:55good economy for one that delivers prosperity for one that has solid foundations however over time full
18:03employment has grown to mean great many things except jobs for all and frankly
18:08we do hear this not just from only from mainstream circles but even some of our
18:14you know heterodox friends will sometimes say look we don't believe in the nairo but there is an unemployment
18:19level that is consistent with full employment to me that is also a paradox we can't meaningfully Define full
18:26employment as some level of unemployment now mmt argues that perhaps the critique
18:35of the nairu has not been as effective because Henry Darcy doesn't have a
18:41genuine alternative to the unemployment stylized fact that there is some sort of
18:48tacit acceptance that we can try to do as much as we can but we will never
18:53finish the job completely there will be always some unemployment an nmt outright
18:58rejects this proposition and it says that we have a concrete tool in the form
19:04of the job guaranteed employee of Last Resort that can in fact provide that public option now this idea of the job
19:11guarantee is not new there is a long history I would say specifically out of
19:18the human rights economic rights tradition that has emphasized jobs for all what mmt brings to the table is an
19:26understanding that unemployment in fact in many ways is engineered by the monetary system that there are just
19:33fundamental aspects to the way money works that contribute to the existence
19:39of unemployment and specifically imposing taxes and obligations on the
19:44economy yeah I think in your lecture at the levy summer school last year you
19:49said it's an original sin yes exactly that is so at the core of a monetary
19:55economy that I mean it's the old adage nothing else is certain but death and
20:00taxes you know there is that very fundamental like question that is true that taxes have always been part of
20:08whatever economic system we want to look at and taxes have always been there to
20:15generate some sort of resource transfer to tax somebody and transfer those real
20:20resources to somebody else right so taxation means that somebody has to work
20:26to produce resources so that then those and I really mean real resources I'm not
20:31talking about working to produce money if we are working to produce grain services economic DTS to provide our own
20:39time to the taxing Authority whatever that may be so taxes have always been
20:45this mechanism of organizing work and transferring resources but in the modern system this organizational system is
20:54hidden behind the veil of money we don't really see deeply what taxes do to our
21:00system all we see is that people get taxed their income gets tax profits Etc and then that these are paid in monetary
21:07terms but we paid them in the unit of account that is established by the
21:14public sector and in the very Financial instrument that is imposed by the
21:20government sector and so in some sense the public sector is not only imposing
21:26the tax obligation and creating the need of people to work for the currency but
21:31they also have the unique capacity to provide the very employment that will choke off that demand this creation of
21:38unemployment by taxation to what extent does it rely on power imbalances in the
21:44private sectors because I've seen a lot of proposals for different types of tax taxing land taxing rent taxing all sorts
21:51of things and capital always seems to be very creative in its way and rent is
21:57very creative in their way to pass on this burden to workers and then I guess
22:02you could see it and then that generates the unemployment could we in an imaginary Society where there is no
22:09class would we be in a better position to eliminate unemployment completely yeah this is really like a philosophical
22:15question sorry how do we envision a society that is fairer that provides a
22:20good life I think that's a really huge question and I think finding meaningful decent employment is one way in which we
22:28self-determine and I think that there are in just even this Society there are more Equitable ways of doing this in
22:34providing these opportunities for folks who absolutely we need them I think that the other philosophical aspect to your
22:41question is that what mmt illuminates is that money has a fundamental kind of
22:46public character in nature but also that money is also from inception a political
22:52project so you can't eliminate the question of power because it's right
22:57there from the start who gets to tax who how are folks taxed and what do they
23:02have to deliver and to whom to the Palace in the form of slave labor or to
23:07the polity in the form of some sort of democratic redistribution of resources like these are political questions they
23:14are questions of power and distribution and so fast forward to the modern day
23:20what do we talk about often we talk a lot about de-risking right this is the Vogue term these days well the public
23:27sector is absolutely de-risking left and right and has been de-risking of the
23:34financial sector for example first decades if not centuries right we invent
23:40new institutions to provide to import more stability on the system to eliminate Bank runs to eliminate
23:47defaults on certain Financial assets the public sector uses its exclusive
23:52spending powers to de-risk those markets and the risk yeah Capital now we do this
24:00sometimes in terms of de-risking Strategic investment let's say Tech
24:05investment we provide large contracts guaranteed profits we believe it's important to provide the subsidies in a
24:12sense we're de-risking the investment the one thing that we don't seem to be de-risking very effectively is the labor
24:18market we had done a little bit after the Great Depression we put in place minimum wages eliminated child labor
24:25social security standard labor contracts in some countries not others so we've
24:31made some progress and then we've stopped economic insecurity still is with us and that is security a huge part
24:39of that insecurity originates from the inability to secure stable well-paid job so there are policies that can continue
24:45to risk the life of families by focusing on employment yeah all we're asking is
24:51for policymakers to imagine that human beings are banks and then right policy accordingly as if they were as precious
24:58as Vex there's any way it goes to Bill Mitchell's point about he was studying agricultural economics and he sees the
25:06wool price stabilization scheme is basically this is a full employment of wool scheme yes there's no zero bid for
25:12war and it's like well maybe we could care about people as much as we care about wall uh you know we might get to a
25:19better economy yes absolutely I love that example but I also often think of the gold standard because like that
25:25speaks to just obsession with shiny little objects because when it's a full employment of gold essentially a gold
25:32standard but we don't have one for people so this problem is solved and you've written so much about this and a
25:39fantastic book the Case for the job guarantee and so people like us we kind
25:44of understand where you're coming from out there in the media there are a few
25:50talking points that I'd like to be able to push back on we're told by the media the problem isn't unemployment the
25:57unemployment's low and the real problem is this thing called a skills Gap what's your response to that this is another
26:03Groundhog Day conversation time and again we slog through these recoveries
26:08and then we arrive at the conclusion that there never was a skills Gap I mean just today we had the data that came out
26:15the employment data and we saw a huge jump in labor force participation rate in Prime working age people and so up to
26:24a few weeks ago everybody was saying well we've ran out of workers we don't have enough people to take these jobs
26:30they've decided to just exit the labor market and retire the great resignation and here we are as soon as the labor
26:38market does a little better people come back in and start looking for those employment opportunities the Great
26:43Recession was explained is the slow recovery out of the Great Recession was explained through again hysteresis
26:50effects and people losing their skills because they've been unemployed for a while and listen there is something to
26:56that when you don't work there is a difficulty to get back in but not because people are unemployable but
27:03because friends are not ready to come and provide the employment opportunity and on-the-job training so we don't
27:09really have skills Gap as a dominant narrative it's not a compelling
27:16explanation for aggregate outcomes it may very well be true that in some
27:21specific areas there is a shortage of particular type of skill but this is not an aggregate story for the labor market
27:28because there just tends to be significant labor markets like and we haven't really seen truthful employment
27:33outside of conditions of World War II this goes back a little bit to what you said about the medical output Gap and it
27:40seems like something very tricky to estimate with any degree of confidence even when we speak about the job
27:46guarantee and we talk about that if there is three percent unemployment we don't really know how many people might
27:53take it on if it is introduced is there in your view any reliable way of making a an estimate of how much would the
28:00economy expand or how many people would join the workforce it is a very difficult question and I'm not sure that
28:07would necessarily be a useful guide to policy I mean just as a little bracket I just love how John Maynard Keynes used
28:15to call the potential output measure he called it an imposter because potential output cannot tell you what the economy
28:22can potentially do and produce except for an instantaneous moment in time but
28:27we invest and we produce more capacity we generate more capacity that can then yield greater investment the labor force
28:35is affected by great many meetings and I think that we don't have a complete
28:42understanding of how many people would come in if the employment conditions are better this economy is a good moment to
28:50look at participation rates why are people leaving because crisis after crisis we see that people are exiting
28:57the labor force and they are not coming back in to make up those losses this is
29:02the case for the United States at least we have had a long-term decline in male
29:08labor force participation rates around the world but the US is below our European counterparts even though in
29:15Europe men exiting are not at the same rate as in the US women in the U.S had
29:21entered in great numbers in the 60s and the 70s and then that entry flatlined in
29:26the 90s now women seem to be exiting but that's not true for our developed
29:31countries in Europe women are continuing to enter the labor force and there are policies that support their employment
29:38opportunities now just because you've entered the labor force doesn't mean you have found employment but you see it
29:44tells you something about the need and the desire to work and then there are just so many other nuances in these
29:50numbers and the Dynamics in the U.S for example in the flows data folks who find
29:56employment tend to come from outside of the labor force and so we don't have very good surveys to understand why
30:03they're outside of the labor force except to note that for example reasons
30:08of disability is the most important reason why they are outside of the labor force outside of care and people haven't
30:17gotten suddenly sicker because this is not a covet related phenomena this is a phenomenon over the last 20 years so
30:23what happened in the last 20 years that made people suddenly sicker what I think a disability is a proxy precarious work
30:31unstable work and economic insecurity or at least in part it is a prox see so
30:38there are so many things that are happening in the labor market that if we were to think of a policy full
30:44employment policy trying to figure out how many people would enter would be a useful exercise if you were trying to do
30:51a job guarantee but it wouldn't be a useful exercise to tell you how much stimulus to put in and when should you
30:58stop like we want to Target a participation rate I think that we need
31:03to allow people to determine whether they want to be in the labor market and that might give us much higher
31:10participation rate that we may calculate that might give us lower participation rate which will tell us that there is a
31:17good chunk of people outside and we need to be looking at why are they outside and what kind of economic policies do we
31:23need to support them is it because the caregivers is it because they're going back to school is it because they're
31:30aging so you see I think in terms of policy design I think we need to create open-ended policies the that will
31:37accommodate whatever influx of workers we observe I've also heard the argument
31:44very often that actually employment is restricted by Capital availability and I
31:49think this is an argument often made particularly with developing economies and I've noticed as
31:55well that when Warren does pricing for job guarantees he does include in their
32:0110 cost allowance for Capital required for new employees what would you say to
32:07those people which one comes first is it capital or the employment well I think what we've seen is that we can create
32:14direct employment that is low Capital intensity and we make use with what
32:20resources we have at hand and we also have seen cases where people figure out
32:25ways of doing the kind of work that is provided so some will be more Capital intensive some will be low Capital
32:31intensive I mean in in developing countries we have seen some of the largest scale employment programs so I
32:39wouldn't say that employment is actually in any sense constrained by the
32:45availability of capital I mean if you see rural employment in India which on a given year provides employment the 25 to
32:5235 percent of rural households in very very poor conditions and you see the
32:57kind of work that they are doing in terms of water conservation and some kind of environmental renewal or even
33:04just frankly doing as basic things as building toilets in areas that don't
33:10have any irrigation Etc I mean these are essential they're absolutely essential for those communities and they're not
33:17constrained by the availability of capital it reminds me of in Peru very
33:23often people say that it improve the working class is very creative and even you see it in people who are hired to
33:29clean roads we don't have the fancy Machinery that they use in the UK to clean the roads and the Pavements and
33:35they use instead like big trees and they have a really long brush shaped leaves
33:41and they just use that and with a sweep they just do it all in one go and I thought that was so ingenious I mean
33:47I've used this example when I went to Argentina to visit some of the projects eight was really amazing to me to see
33:53how people will donate some of their garages so that they would be the site of work and 10 20 people will pack in
34:00and they will be knitting or making children's toys and people find very
34:06creative ways to do what needs to be done as long as the support is there and that's also a very interesting criticism
34:13that we see of the job guarantee that there's just no way we don't have the
34:18capacity we don't have the know-how we don't know how to do the work but so long as you involve the communities they
34:25know what to do they also know how to do it we'll be right back after this message from our sponsor
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35:54let's dive back in so just to take the high level macro view of the job
35:59guarantee we like to say the job guarantee is a superior automatic stabilizer to the current approach what
36:06do we mean by that pavelina what's an automatic stabilizer the first thing thing that people recognize is that the
36:13economy goes through ups and downs and we have expansions recessions downturns
36:20growth periods what most people probably don't think about on a normal day is
36:26that we don't have depressions right that there was a time when the developed
36:34countries the industrialized countries experience huge bulls and busts and
36:39major depressions and the public sector then grew to provide stability to the
36:48economy in the form of various income supports such as unemployment insurance
36:53such as Social Security such as food assistance housing assistance but it
36:58also grew in terms of being a spender and a if you are a consumer of services
37:04so it whether it's infrastructure whether it is procurement policy the public sector group and so the economy
37:10has become far more stable than we had once than we had prior to the Great Depression but it's not stable enough we
37:17now still have ups and downs and we still have the consequence of those downtrends is still unemployment that is
37:24the reliable outcome of recessions that is the reliable outcome of structural
37:30shifts of factories moving abroad that's the real reliable outcome of pandemics crises it's unemployment so what we need
37:37to do is again think more clearly about how to stabilize the economy by
37:43addressing unemployment and the current method is provide income support on
37:49employment insurance and then throw in discretionarily some contracts in the economy hopefully they will land in the
37:56right places and they'll provide the right jobs and we know that doesn't work so if we were to have a direct
38:02employment approach a standby policy safety net employment policy that will
38:09provide on-demand employment opportunities to people who need them whatever the reason it could be they've
38:16lost the local shop the factory has shut down it could be a mom is entering the
38:22labor market because the kids have gone to college it could be whatever the reason if there was a framework that
38:29will provide employment on demand then that policy will act as an automatic
38:36stabilizer because in some downturns more people will walk in the doors and
38:41they will find decent and stable employment opportunities and when
38:46economies recover as we see now people will move out they'll find other better employment opportunities and so the
38:53public sector will still fluctuate in this counter-cyclical way but it will do
39:00it in a way without compromising full employment some people argue that a
39:05universal basic income would Empower workers because it would give them the freedom to turn down bad
39:11jobs and that a job guarantee is merely a Ubi with a work requirement what's
39:18your response to that well I mean of course it's not true you don't Empower people by giving them just income you
39:25Empower them by giving them a choice and the choice of employment and the
39:31universal basic income will provide some kind of income support but we know this
39:37to be true people even who have basic income or get basic income they still want jobs so so long as there is a
39:45shortage of employment opportunities no matter how much basic income people are provided they will not be empowered to
39:51choose employment and then there is a whole other question of does income genuinely Empower because
39:58we do know that poverty social exclusion all the other socio-economic
40:04deprivations are cannot be solved by just providing income people need agency
40:10they need access to various services and employment is a really critical way in
40:16which it connects people to community and provides them the whole argument of
40:22the Dignity of work the way people connect to the employment that they see they are visible then there are many
40:29benefits and I should also say that there are great many people who are outside of the labor market who vitally
40:35depend on people who are in the labor market and so income can never be a
40:40genuine alternative to employment and so the job guarantee addresses that issue IT addresses the issue of shortage of
40:47jobs that empowers somebody to say no to a bad job because they can have other
40:53options now income might Empower you if that income were enough to provide for
41:02everything else that you may need but as I said there are great many dimensions to economic and security it's not just
41:08income the other thing I want to say is universal basic income is universal as it is proposed it's not count to
41:14cyclical stabilizer it does not have the kind of macroeconomic functions because it is provided to all people at all
41:20times irrespective of what happens to the economy and then there are macroeconomic issues with that depending
41:27on the scale and size of the universal basic income yes if you are bothered about the gap between the Haves and the
41:34have-nots people lower down on the income distribution are going to spend everything they get and people higher up
41:41although just at the best they'll just put it under their mattress but there's a whole lot of options there you know
41:46even in low Ubi to someone who doesn't need the money to spend on Necessities
41:51you could be given every five years you're pretty much gifting the family A house there's one thing that I thought
41:58have has always United the basic income and job guarantee folks and that is a recognition that the labor market
42:04doesn't work well and that it doesn't provide the kind of Economic Security so I think we all come out of an
42:11appreciation that something is broken for Working Families fundamentally and
42:16where I go is thinking about how to usher in a new form of decent and
42:24dignified employment that is secured and guaranteed but as we have always said
42:30this is just a piece of a broader safety net and certainly we don't want to be
42:36advocating for retired folks to be working and I should mention in the United States I talked about the decline
42:43in labor force participation rates well the two groups that are increasing their participation rates are men and women 65
42:51and over like that seems just fundamentally broken we need stronger Social Security we don't need folks to
42:57be coming back into the labor market looking for scarce jobs so yes the job guarantee will be there
43:04for the grandma that wants to be involved potentially in a community project but that is not what we're
43:10advocating we're talking about a good life and income support is part and parcel of that but Universal basic
43:16income the way it often is talked about as a replacement for these interventions
43:21as a replacement for a good job because somehow we can't do it or even as on the
43:27conservative right as a replacement to the social welfare system and so there
43:32is some danger as well there in losing Public Services because presumably a
43:39generous Universal basic income would substitute for that which we know would
43:45be very pernicious so the Biden package during the covet pandemic included a big
43:51support package as you said it was just I think it was one or two checks that were sent overall and I think at the
43:59time that could have been thought of as a one-off basic income because it was Universal as far as I understand
44:05did you like that policy did you think it was the best that could be done at the time or what alternative would you
44:12have proposed yes it was a basic income policy it was reasonably generous It Was
44:18Then followed up by a child support I've always supported Universal child
44:24allowance and I think this is critical but what the Biden policy did is it
44:30appropriated a very large budget to beef up unemployment insurance and it did
44:35some positive things because unemployment insurance in the United States does not really cover self-employed it doesn't really cover
44:43substitute teachers let's say so it did expand coverage I think it was in a
44:49sense a second best solution I would say because I much preferred the protection of employment approach to me again to
44:57use an old quote by case he says it's easier to prevent the ball from Rolling
45:02than to stop it when it starts rolling so I think think that in terms of in Full Employment protecting jobs would
45:10have been far superior so again paying the wage bill and the budget was large
45:16enough with money to spare and it was significant to cover the payroll of
45:21every single worker in the economy for three months plus funding for a generous
45:28job guarantee for the unemployed that's how much money we appropriated but we didn't go that route and in fact of
45:34course you don't have to protect all jobs you have to only protect the ones that are endangered by the pandemic
45:40shutdowns food Health Services but you also can't really shut all of these down
45:46because those are essential so if we had this vision of protecting jobs creating
45:52a job guarantee and mobilizing to generate to create a public health core
45:59I think we would have been far better positioned to respond to the Health crisis to still keep people attached to
46:07the labor market to provide employment for people who didn't have it and we could have potentially even used this
46:13policy to change the terms of employment you know you could say okay the government is doing a public health core
46:19twenty dollars an hour and they have it a public option that suddenly lifted the
46:25minimum wage without minimum wage legislation so I think that the pandemic check was the easy expedient option it
46:32was provided the support to the economy but I would have liked to see the kind of direct investment direct employment
46:40immobilization approach in terms of critiques Matt brunick wrote a critique
46:46of the job guarantee back in 2018 in Jacobin and I picked it because he plays
46:51all the hits and I'd like to get your response he's still out there yeah yeah the mats never
46:59go away do they there's at least two of them but yeah he writes the production undertaken by a job guarantee program
47:04cannot rely upon skilled workers who can command wages higher than the minimum wage so he's recognizing that the job
47:11guarantee wage would become the de facto minimum wage but then to me and I wanted to get your take on this he makes a leap
47:18he says because the job guarantee workers would be minimum wage workers he says this means that the only production
47:24a job guarantee program could undertake is the kind of stuff that could be done exclusively with lowly skilled workers
47:31so it is not enough for you to find a job that a low skilled worker can do it has to be a job that is possible to do
47:37in an overall productive unit with no skilled workers in it at all to me I'm like why yeah but anyway how do you
47:45respond to that pavelina okay there are certain kinds of jobs that require some
47:51technical expertise but what we see in various corners of the world develop
47:58context developing contexts we see that many different kinds of projects can be
48:04created that are socially useful that take a range of skill and it really
48:10depends on how the community organizes itself it is true that this is a public
48:15option and it is by Design attracts those who have the greatest difficulties
48:21in the labor market yet they may have less education and less experience
48:27because they've been shuffled around in and out of the labor market but they are not unemployable nor are they producing
48:34only a low value work and so this comes out of this perspective that we just
48:40need to have high value added to employment that it's justified by some kind of level of productivity these
48:48conventional measures but our life is one that is supported through Social
48:53Services as well and this is the aspect of our life that is underfunded there's a great gaps in investment there and
49:01people can fill those gaps and we see this time and again I mean Ethiopia has
49:06a program of direct employment that is connected to food insecurity and it is the most significant program as small as
49:13it is the most significant program that deals with floods okay mother nature doesn't pay right it's not a paying
49:20customer but this is vital for the way people live there are other programs the
49:26French experiment is really interesting because those are not lowly skilled
49:31workers they are prime working age folks who have been out of the labor market for a long time long-term unemployed and
49:38they have created through social Enterprise various useful employment
49:43projects so there's the gamut you just have to see how people are doing it on the ground and how it is motivated the
49:51examples that I gave are motivated by the recognition that no one is unemployable that there is much Social
49:58use for work that needs to be done and that the funding is there at least those are the three principles of the French
50:03experiment so I find these to be you know abstract objections that you know
50:09in the Practical reality they don't really find a lot of support is it just me if there's an element here of
50:14prejudice against people on the minimum wage and the assumption that they can't organize themselves around useful work
50:21and that they need somebody skilled to tell them how to do things there are actually a lot of studies and articles
50:29all the time about initiatives that communities take to make improvements at
50:34local community and that these efforts are sorted almost always by lack of funds so I see it is actually a way of
50:43kind of just unplugging this huge amount of talent that we just can't see due to
50:49lack of support absolutely and it's also a matter of a vision of what we value and what we find to be socially useful I
50:56mean there is an element it does ring of this kind of false meritocracy that they're productive they're less
51:01productive but we just know that at the macro level the economy doesn't work this way to provide employment for
51:07everyone and that there is also that Paradox that not only there are folks
51:13needing work but that there are many just to use the low-hanging fruit cliche
51:18opportunities in the community to materially impact and improve people's lives and those two things can be put
51:27together and we had seen it through the New Deal projects we had seen that with a youth entitlement programs in the US
51:35there are small and large Virgos I think that they're just not getting enough attention and they certainly have not
51:41constituted the policy approach the direct employment approach has been forgotten in many ways so we better turn
51:48the corner and get to lesson three of the pandemic from your chapter pav leader and lesson three is that large
51:54government spending is not the inevitable source of inflation tell us more about that well I think economists
52:02so want this to be true because they have not seen such large-scale government spending in their lifetimes
52:09most certainly haven't and now voila we have inflation and so in people's minds
52:15these two things must be connected and yet time and again we see that the price
52:20pressures are coming from the production side they're coming from the disruptions from the logistical problems and even
52:28the FED has been quite clear that the labor market is not the source of inflation and yet we are using once
52:36again the tool of unemployment to tame inflationary demand so it is another similar scenario as during the 70s when
52:43we had a cost push problem now either here maybe theoretically we should say
52:48something about the role of government spending where while government spending is not the cause of inflation
52:56there is a certain sense in which government spending provides validation
53:01to those increases that it provides a purchasing power that can then well
53:08purchase the output that has appreciated in price so it's not the cause but it
53:13has allowed if you will these price increases to continue and that doesn't
53:19have to be government spending it could be just simply private credit you know you can have the private banking sector
53:25extend enough credit to allow the private sector to purchase the now more
53:30expensive output so there's always going to be some sort of macroeconomic force that will validate these price increases
53:37whether it's government spending whether it is private Finance but this is not even part of the conversation and
53:44certainly we should not be proposing a fiscal retrenchment to deal with price
53:49increases just like we shouldn't be proposing increasing interest rates
53:55where it becomes prohibitively and expensive to carry on any additional investment if the source of inflation
54:03comes on the cost side and then the bottlenecks then our Focus needs to be there and I think that is a lesson from
54:09the pandemic which I'm not sure has been taken to heart I think Isabella Weber's
54:15work has helped shine a spotlight on the sources of inflation and that has been
54:22very important speaking of sources of the price level shall we say what you've just said goes to your very old pay for
54:30now about Monopoly money and Sam Levy previous guest of ours took it up again
54:36took up the ideas in that paper again and I'm talking in the broad Strokes here the mmt view of the government as
54:44the source of the price level as Warren Mosler likes to say and you write about pavilina what that says to me is the
54:52market asks for a higher price and the government's got a choice it can pay those higher prices or not pay it which
55:00means then that the economy as a whole doesn't get the money that it needs the government could say look we're not
55:06paying a penny more than we paid last year or last week then the economy as a whole doesn't get the money that it
55:12needs to pay its tax liabilities in the mmt money story and the whole system
55:17crashes and yeah okay you've brought the price level down now but governments
55:23don't really want to do that Warren says I wouldn't advise this as a good policy so the government has a choice when the
55:29market is demanding higher prices it could either ratify those higher prices by continuing to spend will cause the
55:36crash and it never chooses that second option and we wouldn't advise that if I'm understanding everybody correctly
55:42yes I mean there's first the very big picture macro okay the theoretical argument that if you are the exclusive
55:49issuer of a monetary instrument and that you have the choice of setting the price
55:55you can set the conversion rate between the currency and what it exchanges for
56:00we have done this in the past by setting it against gold but what we are proposing is that it'd be set against
56:07some kind of basic unit of Labor wage maybe via kind of a job guarantee so
56:14there is an anchoring macro story here that the public sector spends currency
56:20into existence and what is it worth well it's worth whatever it exchanges for and
56:26we think that labor is worth more of a price sport than corn or gold so we can
56:31set the price of some essential Commodities and that prices then become
56:37a function of that price paid by government so that's a very kind of this simple stylized version of the Monopoly
56:45price setting Powers then the complication happens in the real world because the government absolutely has
56:53price setting Powers even if at the macro level level it doesn't provide the
56:59currency if you will in enough to choke off the demand for it right even if we
57:04still have quasi austerity you still can set prices of certain sectors through
57:11procurement for example so we've got these kind of distortions we understand that the deficit is part of the macro
57:18markup but we have these distortions that occur where the public sector has
57:24abdicated this pricing power to private contractors so but it was a great report
57:30just last week on what the military charges the government for valve it can
57:36get that valve on Amazon for like 200 the government pays ten thousand dollars for some valve right and it's these
57:42sorts of things are just I think there's a good research paper for yellow aspiring PhD on how government
57:49procurement has evolved over the years and how that has actually surrendered
57:54the pricing powers to the private contractors so that's one thing on the
57:59other hand and certainly you could look at the subsidies that we provide to certain industries but then we don't
58:05allocate enough resources in other areas so there are these various kinds of distortions that happen at the micro
58:11level and at the macro level the overall government contribution to the economy
58:17is going to either validate prices or not and that will be true for spending
58:24by the private economy as well right like prices will be validated on the basis of the overall spending power that
58:31comes from different sources of demand I was wondering about that because some
58:36Levy he was here talking about his own research on the price level setting and
58:43he mentioned that was the government has the power to set prices often that comes
58:51at a cost so I think he mentioned that in the context of say reducing wages or
58:57forcing its own prices on the private sector that eventually the private sector will have no choice but to follow
59:03the government but that there may be a period where you may have the government not being able to as you say Supply its
59:09own services and things like that so that sort of cast doubt in my head about who's got the power here and what's that
59:17relationship and is the government really in a position to choose the price level if the cost is so great
59:23politically you know I think that's right and it goes back to the earlier comment that money is at bottom a
59:29political project and how budgetary policy is shaped and formed and who gets
59:35to bid who gets to be have the exclusive relationship with the government and be an exclusive supplier matters very much
59:42in the kind of distributed outcomes that we get I think that's probably true I mean as we like to say the Paradox of
59:48the mmt project is that while we want to illustrate that money is No Object and
59:53is not scarce it certainly demonstrates that money can't solve all our problems all the ideas we're trying to make money
1:00:00the least important thing in policy discussions or finding the money exactly
1:00:05okay so see what you think publicly but I thought an interesting way to bring the job guarantee alive in people's
1:00:10imaginations might be to walk through an alternate timeline of what would have happened in a country like the UK or the
1:00:17US that had implemented a job guarantee as a permanent program decades ago and
1:00:22kept it so stagflation in the 70s various bubbles that come after that the.com bubble the great financial
1:00:28crisis the pandemic how might these things have played out in a country with a job guarantee I know that's a big
1:00:33question and time is limited so maybe you prefer to take the more recent shocks but you can talk about all of
1:00:39them if you want whatever you prefer one thing we can say is that financial crisis and pandemics of Wars would
1:00:47certainly have happened again the job guarantee is not the solution to that what we probably would have avoided is
1:00:54these jobless recovery is which have really eroded the social Fabric and
1:01:00created what I think have contributed to this enormous polarization but what I
1:01:05think we would have had even if we had reauthorized the New Deal programs I
1:01:12think we would have had a more robust if you will conservation movement I mean it was resuscitated with the CCC back
1:01:20during the New Deal reforestation national parks we would have had a more
1:01:25concerted effort to continue and support these ongoing public service projects
1:01:31that address broader social environmental concerns young people would have had kind of a stepping stone
1:01:39we've seen that youth around the world have had the highest levels of unemployment and for some depression
1:01:45levels of unemployment this whole conversation about need the not in education employment or training I think
1:01:52that is a conversation maybe we wouldn't have had maybe would have talked about the four day working week or six hour
1:02:00working day much sooner than now maybe that would have been a conversation back
1:02:06in the 60s and 70s I mean in the United States the 30-hour working week as I
1:02:11write in my book was narrowly defeated in the 30s so even back then there was overwhelming support for that and maybe
1:02:19we wouldn't be as overworked who knows this is the possibilities of our grandchildren Paradox for Keynes that
1:02:25we're wealthier and yet we're overworked and somehow still have essential needs not supported but I think that just
1:02:32providing employment support an ongoing basis long-run employment would have made conversations of trade a lot easier
1:02:40the anxieties around job loss certainly AI so yeah in my ideal world I imagine
1:02:47that we would have had some kind of employment support to these bigger conversations of course it could turn
1:02:54another way John job guarantees are guarantees only because they're
1:02:59implemented on Democratic terms and on participatory terms and that's what we're talking about not about Urban
1:03:07style forced employment and before we wrap up pavelina we should just plug
1:03:12this year's keynote address at the economic democracy initiatives summer
1:03:18workshop it's James Galbraith as I believe and it's open to the public yes Jamie Galbraith will be talking about
1:03:24the economics and politics of inflation fighting around the world we have a big
1:03:30Workshop attended by 50 60 students from around the world with a lot of faculty
1:03:36and we're just very very excited for the second year there are no more places for students there but the keynote address
1:03:43is open to the public correct the keynote address is open to the public it's being held at the Franklin Delano
1:03:50Roosevelt Library in Hyde Park in New York very close to Bart college and while there are no spots for the summer
1:03:57school we do have lots of availability for the open keynote it's on Thursday June the 15th great stuff that's a great
1:04:05place to leave it we've been talking to Professor pavlina chernover Economist and author of the case for a job
1:04:11guarantee which is an essential read as is her chapter in the equally essential mmt key insights leading thinkers I'll
1:04:18link to where you can get hold of both of those in the show notes for this episode and for our patreon subscribers there's a link to where you can listen
1:04:24to the edited audio highlights of the book launch of mmt key insights leading thinkers and finally we can now announce
1:04:30that applications are open for the Edward Lipinski foundation's mmt summer school in poznan Poland that takes place
1:04:37from the 5th to the 7th of September 2023 confirmed speakers so far include Stephen Hale L Randall Ray Nathan tankus
1:04:45and Yan Lang so that's going to be fantastic check out the show notes for details but for now thanks so much for
1:04:52joining us today on the mmt podcast professor pavlina chernova thank you so much for having me
1:05:00[Music] [Applause] [Music]
1:05:07that was the mmt podcast with Patricia Pino and Christian Riley
1:05:13don't forget you can support the show through patreon starting at a dollar a month and get access to Patron only
1:05:19episodes you can do that by going to patreon.com mmt podcast you can also
1:05:26find me on Twitter at mmt podcast and you can find Patricia on Twitter at
1:05:31Patricia npino and you can email us at mmtpodcast
1:05:36outlook.com thanks for listening and we hope to hear from you [Music]
1:05:51thank you
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